The nattering nabobs of negativism

[dsc]

Last night there was a Clark Road to the WH on CASPAN I almost didn't watch it. Even though I don't know a lot about Clark, didn't care much about football which was its main competition I almost didn't watch it. Why? Thanks to the Clark supporters here. Not all of them to be sure but the many who seem to be incapable of posting anything remotely positive about him and just attack attack attack. I am glad I decided to watch anyhow.

Clark is a really good guy. He isn't perfect to be sure but he certainly isn't a candidate so devoid of positive features that the only way he can win is to trash others. And better yet he actually knows that. Unlike these nattering nabobs he actually tells crowds what he intends to do. He actually manages to refrain from calling Dean's wife ugly, insult Dean's religion, and tell tales about Dean's supporters. What a concept.

Too bad you nearly caused me to miss it.

I hope some Clark supporters see themselves in this. Many should. Sadly experience shows that those most likely to wonder if I am talking about them are least likely to actually be the ones I am talking about.

[redqueen]

1. What's wrong with our country?

"Too bad you nearly caused me to miss it."

That.

Barf.

[dsc]

3. I know some will dismiss this

but I really vascillated on keeping CSPAN on and turning to football.

[redqueen]

7. Whatever

Watch football, a sitcom, vote republican for all I care.

But don't you dare blame it on anyone else. That's stupid.

[demothinker]

25. Hey!

>>vote republican for all I care.

Whoa! There's no need to go to that extreme, I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy! ;)

[dsc]

29. Great representation of Kucinch there

I am sure he would be proud of you.

[redqueen]

42. I love that one

I see that 'zinger' aimed at Kucitizens all the time.

I am always reminded of the similar barbs I hear from Republicans: 'well if you liberals are so good then why aren't you all Jesus?!' Yeah... makes a whole lotta sense. Their actual words are more tailored to issues (as in, if you're so concerned about the environment then why don't you recycle 100% of everything you ever used EVER?! or some other such nonsense) -- It really is sad seeing that from Democrats but I've been awakened to how successful our 'march toward the right' has been.

My point is, that it's beyond inexcusable to sit back and whine about how someone esle's actions forced you to do something. You and only you are in control of your actions.

Whether or not one chooses to point to the candidate I support and 'tsk tsk' me for being adamant about refusing to take the 'victim' mentality excuse at face value and instead challenge that ridiculous mindset, the point stands.

[Cheswick2.0]

2. Slight edit needed dsc

<<<<He isn't perfect to be sure but he certainly is a candidate so devoid of positive features that the only way he can win is to trash others.>>>>>

I agree with you otherwise.

[dsc]

Thanks I needed that

I really should be more careful.

[eileen_d]

4. I don't like what some of the Clark supporters say on DU either

but I have to say, it really is your choice whether to watch Clark on TV or not. Have you ever considered that you are giving negative people too much power over your viewing choices?

[dsc]

5. I don't claim to be perfect

Yes, I know I shouldn't let this crap get to me but I am so tired of it and frankly I do think the way those supporters behave reflect their opinion of Clark and it isn't all that good or else they would be discussing him.

[eileen_d]

10. I feel the same way about some Dean supporters

Nevertheless, I did investigate Dean.

I think all of the negative "candidate-supporter" behavior has to do with one thing and one thing only: Fear that Bush* will get re-selected. Expressed in a myriad of different ways.

[Upfront]

41. Fears Expressed

Fear attacks expressed against Dean because you fear he can't beat B### is helping B### win. I am not trying to offend anyone, but the primary is over and Dean won. Face it and get on with your life. This attack crap has to stop or we lose. If the folks on an intellengent board like this can't understand this, we lose. I remain amazed to witness our self destruction. If this is the way we go, God help America, cause B### wins.

[eileen_d]

45. Well, you did succeed in offending someone.

:hi:

But let's all repeat to ourselves:
It's only an Internet message board.
It's only an Internet message board.
It's only an Internet message board.
It's only an Internet message board.
It's only an Internet message board.
It's only an Internet message board.
It's only an Internet message board.
It's only an Internet message board.
It's only an Internet message board.
It's only an Internet message board.
It's only an Internet message board.
It's only an Internet message board.
It's only an Internet message board.
It's only an Internet message board.
It's only an Internet message board.
It's only an Internet message board.

[vi5]

13. But by that logic.....

Dean himself has attacked Clark ("he was a republican until a week ago") and also most of the other candidates in one form ("bush lite"...."cockroaches") or another. By your logic if he has so much good to say about his own plans and vision, what would he stand to gain by attacking Clark or any other Dems?

Obviously Dean has a lot to say and has a vision. But decrying someone else's attacks as meaning they are devoid of positive things to say about themselves or their own candidate has to cut both ways.

[dsc]

17. Show me when Dean called Clark's wife ugly

go ahead I am waiting.

[eileen_d]

21. Show me where Clark called Dean's wife ugly

I must have missed that news day...

Someone posted here that Clark looked like a person with AIDS. I was offended but blew it off as I do 25% of the immature crap around here.

I don't want to be telling you that your feelings about the negativity on DU aren't important, so I'll stop. I just don't think any particular candidate supporters have claim to moral high ground (at least those candidates who have polled in double-digits)

[dsc]

24. I didn't say he did

but of course why read my posts and respond to them when you can just make crap up. For the record this thread is about Clark's supporters not Clark himself.

[eileen_d]

28. LOL - your statement was "show me where Dean called Clark's wife ugly"

That statement is about candidates, not candidate supporters. I was reversing your own statement to make a point. But I see you are still confusing candidates with candidate supporters. Have a nice day.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[eileen_d]

36. Pardon me for living.

I'll go fall on my sword now, since apparently that's all that will satisfy you at this point.

[dsc]

40. maybe an apology would be nice

since you were in the wrong. But I know that is a lot to ask.

[eileen_d]

43. I don't see anything wrong with what I said

You used one candidate attacking another as an example. I switched the candidates around. Even if the thread is about candidate supporters, you turned it into candidate vs. candidate with the statement in question.

But in the large (and all-caps) scheme of things: IT DOESN'T MATTER. Candidates criticize each other; candidate supporters criticize each other's candidates; sometimes it gets ugly; no one is mortally wounded. Unless you'd like to issue me a subpoena, that's all I have to say.

[vi5]

22. Huh? That didn't answer my question....

If your assertion is that people who wallow in attacks and negativity only do so because they lack belief or positivity in their own candidate, then what did it mean when Dean attacked all the other dems at one point or another?

I'm assuming you are referring to a Clark supporter calling Dean's wife ugly. Which is fine, but the flow of logic still applies. I've seen Dean supporters talk about Kerry's long face, Kucinich's hair, called Theresa Heinz Kerry a b*tch and numerous other transgressions. And I'm guessing you weren't right there decrying the negativity when that happened.

If attacks and negativity are the result of a lack of vision then why has Dean attacked almost every other one of the candidates in some form or another?

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Terwilliger]

20. maybe you should tell your Deaner friends to stop attacking Clark

since your guy has all the positives, there should be no need to post anything about the other candidates

[dsc]

26. I have on several occasions

maybe you should try reading posts people made. Incidently I do just that to a Dean person in the Kerry thread that I linked. But why bother reading when you can just make up posts to respond to.

[vi5]

6. Really, this type of talk blows my mind.....

People on here can say what they want. But I am not a supporter of any one candidate at this point. I'm 100% ABB, but each of the candidates for one reason or another has let me down so far and none of them enthuse me enough to invest in one over the other.

That being said, I am sorry but there are just as many negative, nasty, bullying Dean supporters as there are of any other candidate.

I've got no agenda, and no particular candidate I like more than others. But having read many if not most of the threads in GD for the past year or so, I can honestly say that the tone of nastiness and bullying is just as bad as those of any other candidate. And it's been going on obviously for much longer since Clark hasn't been in the race this long.

You can accuse me of bashing or having an agenda or being a covert freeper or a covert clark supporter or whatever you want, but personally speaking I think that there are good and bad supporters of all the candidates but the bullying and name calling has been just as bad from the worst Dean camp offenders as it has been from the worst Clark camp offenders or Kerry camp offenders. Of course good luck getting someone with a Dean tag in their sig line to admit this.

[Padraig18]

8. Admit it?

Good God, I've said it publicly about 50 times recently, and I'm a Dean supporter. :)

[vi5]

11. Well then thank you.....

I'm sorry I missed that. Perhaps because you don't have a pic or avatar in your sig line it wasn't as obvious to me.

[Padraig18]

33. No blood, no foul!

:hi:

[dsc]

12. that is utter bunk

and I actually have proof.

Uhhuh did a valuable service for us yesterday. He or she posted four threads directed to non supporters of candidates asking for positive statements about those candidates. I will link them here for you.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=36159

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=35671&mesg_id=35671

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=35855&mesg_id=35855

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=35989

There was one thread for each of Kucinich, Dean, Clark, and Kerry. One, and only one, of these threads were filled with diatribes against that candidate. So much so that the number of positive posts didn't outnumber the number of negative ones. That was Dean's thread. Clark's thread had no negative comments. Not a one. No Dean supporter trashed him. Kerry's had two trashers, admittedly both Dean supporters. But do the counting yourself. You tell me who the trash talkers are. Go ahead.

[vi5]

14. That is your "proof"? 4 threads from 1 week?

As oppossed to the entire year, especially when Dean was a relative unknown and was clawing his way to the top? C'mon. If you regard this as "proof" then clearly we are working on completely different standards of proof, and god help me if I'm ever charged with something and have you on my jury.

[dsc]

15. I have sited four threads

you zero and I get lectured on standards. Go figure.

[vi5]

27. Have a lovely day.....

I'm sure you'll stop reading this thread ASAP anyway since you've got so much positivity to get to.

Irony is clearly a dead scene around here.

[dsc]

31. You call us mean

you provide no proof and yes it is my fault.

[eileen_d]

18. That is revealing, but not definitive proof

I'm not denying that Dean is kicked around on DU, but he is the "frontrunner" -- which does not excuse some of the bashing, but is still something to consider.

The candidates I have supported (Kerry and Clark) have been kicked around plenty on DU. Some Dean supporters seem to enjoy dredging up mud about them, then excuse their actions by saying "But Clark/Kerry supporters are so mean to Dean..." which is just adding fuel to the fire IMHO.

At this point no supporters of candidates who have polled in double-digit numbers smell like roses. We can probably all agree on that.

[Justice]

35. Comment About The Bunk

The Dean thread was posted first, with an acknowledgement that Uhhuh was leaning Dean, and was couched as a challenge more to non-Dean supporters to say something nice about Dean, since Dean was the likely nominee. That IMO affected the postings (again a thread that told us that Dean was the likely nominee, and we'd in all likelihood better line up)

It was posted before Uhhuh posted the other threads - which were all strictly - saying something nice about this person. People got a little bored with it by the end.

I think the moderators post asking for pro-candidate comments is a much better indicator of what people will say - as they were all nicely balanced and objective.

[Justice]

9. Glad You Relied on Your Good Judgement and Watched It

Most Clark supporters are ABB.

I know your concern. We have it also. There are some Dean supporters who post negative messages that are not just anti-Clark, but they are anti-Democrats - they are very much us versus you -- and cross the line into - if you criticize Dean you are a republican - land.

At the moment I feel like Dean supporters are telling me that they don't want anyone who is not a pure Dean supporter -- as if we aren't good enough to support Dean if he is the nominee.

Perhaps if Dean supporters will criticize/frown on the anti-Clark comments and if Clark supporters will criticize/frown on the anti-Dean comments - we can work together to oust the negativity.

And please do address this line: "He isn't perfect to be sure but he certainly isn't a candidate so devoid of positive features that the only way he can win is to trash others" cuz it says the opposite of what I think you were trying to say.

[jmaier]

16. I actually paid money

to attend a Dean fundraiser in Chicago to see up close what was so enticing about his candidacy. He did well but didn't resonate with me more than other campaign appearances by some other candidates in the past. There was no "special" magic. Just a guy rushing to get through a truncated stump speech, shake some hands and run on to the next event -- pretty much the usual fare. That said, he seems like a solid fellow and he would get my vote if he's the nominee.

I went to see Dean because of the positive things that his supporters were saying about him and because I think it's important to make an informed versus emotional decision at the polls. I wasn't dissuaded by my support for another candidate or by the negative posts here -- which I abhor regardless of the candidate.

And you find many positive Clark threads here started by supporters which aren't attacks on Gov Dean and similarly quite a few Dean supporters start their own positive threads. It's just politics. Thank god, I'm not voting for any one's supporters.

[TexasPatriot]

19. i have a suggestion for you DSC

use 'ignore'
i must have 15 people on ignore now, and though it limits the value of the board because you start losing threads started by those folks - the sanity it brings makes it worth it. You have no idea how happy it makes me to see 'ignored' and then read a reply that reinforces the reason they were put on ignore to begin with - anger I dont have to feel is a good thing.

I figure if I get to 25 that are avowed supporters of any candidate I'll consider how that influences me.

There are plenty of CandidateX Supporters who have good things to say and are well worth reading.

[CMT]

23. Good Point

I was much higher on Clark a few months ago but thanks to the constant "Dean can't win" threads sponsored by Clark supporters I've gotten really turned off of his candidacy and it isn't even fair to the General, but that is how I feel. I've repeatedly said on DU that I feel any of our leading candidates can beat Bush only to have some Clark people over and over claim that only their man can win. It is insulting.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[exclark4dean]

37. The clark supporters here are very very mean

nasty

[Zomby Woof]

38. you're using Safire for your thread title?

Who wrote that for Agnew. Nice. :eyes:

[dsc]

39. He can turn a phrase

and unlike back then it actually applies. Of given that you find nothing wrong with calling people brown shirts I can see why you wouldn't find anything wrong with the people I am describing. YOu really don't represent Dennis well.

[mitchum]

44. if you like alliteration

In my opinion, ZW represents DK very well.
Now about your own backyard: have you delivered spankings to the always charming Sc-tt Lee, p-lpil-t, and Cl-ser?

[Moderator]

46. Locking.......

1. If you start a thread in the General Discussion forum, you must present your opinion in a manner that is not inflammatory, which respects differences in opinion, and which is likely to lead to respectful discussion rather than flaming. Some examples of things which should generally be avoided are: unnecessarily hot rhetoric, nicknames for prominent Democrats or their supporters, broad-brush statements about groups of people, single-sentence "drive-by" thread topics, etc.


DU Moderator