An appeal for reason....

[indigo32]

because this forum saddens me. We're nearing the end of savaging eachother over candidates so now we have to find ANOTHER reason to savage eachother. So much energy WASTED.

For ABB folks (of which I am one) I have a couple things to say...
first of all... you have 8 1/2 months to make your appeal. Is it really necessary for you to assure yourself over and over and over and over and ...well you get the picture, right now? Yes I fully understand the gravity of the situation. But people can and will change their mind with time. The tone, as happened in the candidate wars as well, is very BULLYING too. Please do not tell me that the anti-ABBers can't be reasoned with (I've seen that several times), as that is ABSOLUTE NONSENSE. You are stirring the pot and causing more people to feel compelled to make their Anti-ABB arguement. It is only a vicious circle.

To the anti-ABBers, well I hardly know where to begin without sounding like the bully I decried above yet I feel compelled to say something, except to politely request that you think beyond your personal hurts (believe me, both sides have them), and your sadness over the past, to help everyone around you. Make no mistake. The WORLD is watching, and on the home front the courts need placing. We cannot go back in time and undo this horrid war, we can only avoid more hurt by removing Bush and working from there.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. Nice post. I don't want to muck it up

I have DONE my best NOT to bully on your first subject but to present the ISSUES on which we would ALL shoot ourselves in the foot.

It's NO surprise that Nader chose to make his announcement yesterday so close to Dean's announcement to quit. He is cynically capitalizing on that grief while it is fresh.

People are going to say things and people are going to counter them on both sides.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[indigo32]

10. ABB is NOT a prostitutin of MY VOTE (or NSMA's)

please don't attribute your feelings/issues to me right after you ask NSMA not to.
And...perhaps you could explain, politely how you gain representation from someone whom you don't vote for?

[SaddenedDem]

13. I didn't attribute that TO NSMA....I stated MY feelings

So, excuse me, but you need to go back and READ what I said.

See, this is the problem.....this is the bullying.....your entire post says "How DARE you disagree with me! How DARE you fail to fall for my bullying tactics saying your feelings aren't warranted!"

A perfect example.

For your information, I am living the disaster which is Clinton's "Welfare Reform." I am living the disaster which is Clinton's "NAFTA." I am living the disaster which is "one medical emergency away from bankruptcy."

So, you see, I can't vote for a 2nd Clinton presidency or anything which resembles it. I won't live through another one.

[indigo32]

14. Sorry if I misinterpreted

"I think ABB is a prostitution of your vote."
As for the rest. In my initial post I "requested" I didn't say anybody HAD to do anything.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

15. I didn't say I have never bullied, I said I did my best not to

Forgive the omission.

I didn't say that ALL Dean supporters were Greens, I KNOW better. You read that INTO my statement. I said," It's NO surprise that Nader chose to make his announcement yesterday so close to Dean's announcement to quit. " I am SAYING that Nader KNEW there were angry Dean supporters grieving his departure and he KNEW he could take advantage of whatever portion of them are organized to benefit him. I stand by that assessment and don't view the MAKING that assessment as bullying by any stretch except to someone who might not want to admit that they are being just as USED by their politician of choice to reach his end as I am by mine.

He waited two days in essence. Not a very long time...close enough to still prosper from those angry and grieving and far enough to not appear on face value to be the calculating person he is.

And your overall behavior on DU is to shame, belittle and degrade anyone who dares not to hold the same beliefs and postitions you do. Your overall demeanor is bullying.

I would say overall my behavior has NOT been to do that but in moments of being human I have indeed stooped so low. I'd also suggest you PM me if you have more to say on this issue. I'd like to know who exactly feels this way since we have more likely than not had personal interaction.
I am open to listening on specifics.


You need to understand that YOUR issues are not MY issues and you can't force yours on me.

There's 300 million people in America. I suspect we have some issues in common and some that collide and that possibly aiming for the greatest most immediate common good is not an unworthy goal.

I'm not ABB. I think ABB is a prostitution of your vote. I find ABB the most disgusting form of whoredom on the planet. We have little left to be proud of as Americans and when we hand them our vote, with no demand for representation, we have become what they are.

Anything not done to get rid of George Bush ensures he remains. Energy works that way.

Oh and by the way...sugggesting my position is WHOREDOM is not exactly the opposite of bullying..nor is the manner in which you went about communicating this. ;-)

[SaddenedDem]

17. Wow, this is pretty amazing....

Let me see if I have this straight....

You think my responding to your public post, to disagree with it, should have been handled privately? Is that what you are saying?

Because quite frankly, I find that the epitome of bullying. You see it comes out like this...."sure, you're entitled to disagree, but do it privately. Don't call me out on a public message board if you disagree. "

Do you not see the problem with this kind of behavior? I don't wish to have a "private" conversation with you about your public posts.

I disagree with you. I disagree with ABBers. I disagree with the philosophy of ABB. I am still entitled to state that at DU. Or, at least I thought I was.

on edit:
I wish to add that I have nothing personally against NSMA (frankly, I don't know this person). I disagree with his/her stand on this issue. I am trying to debate the issue.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

19. I did debate the issues you raised publicly and responded publicly

as for your bullying statement I DID debate that publicly and invited you to raise specifics with me privately as it is a lie to say you have never communicated with me personally...I simply want to know WHICH person has an issue with me without saying more.

That said, feel free to post specifics. If I was wrong I will gladly admit it...if I didn't really feel my behavior was all that bad in the context in which I posted I will stand up for myself. That's the benefit of always using the same handle.

I think it is nothing short of a double standard to claim I am bullying for my position but then frame MY position is nothing short of WHOREDOM which is an ad hominem attack.

Sorry if logic Saddens you

[SaddenedDem]

21. OK, define it then

Because here's how I see it....

In 1992 I was asked to vote ABB even though Bill Clinton supported NAFTA and many other things I was opposed to. And I did.

In 1996 I was asked to vote ABD (Dole) even though Bill Clinton supported NAFTA, had failed to pass any legislation that mattered to my basic political beliefs and long held issues. And I did.

In 2000 I was to vote ABB even though Al Gore was a continuation of the Clinton White House. And I did.

You see, it's 2004 and I can't buy ABB anymore. My family is suffering terribly today because of my ABB votes of the last 12 years. I can't ask them to do it anymore.

Why is that so hard for people to understand?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

29. It's not but please don't hold me accountable for what your PAST

experiences are.

In 1992, everyone was WARNED about NAFTA and those of us that work in the field of labor rights WERE warning people...there was only ONE candidate in the field against NAFTA and that was Perot...I certainly didn't tell anyone to vote against Perot, I was pumping him up as I KNEW he was splitting Bush's vote. For the record, I am pro trade but WAS anti-nafta...I work with labor unions who KNEW better.

In 96, I was busy dealing with a hostile takeover by Republicans in my own state that was threatening labor rights. The corporations waged a state by state battle in the late 80's and early 90's over labor rights and tax giveaways....I didn't ask anyone to do anything...but WAS involved in BEGGING states such as SOUTHERN STATES to vote AGAINST Right to work laws which are part of the reason unions such as the AFL-CIO who ALSO lobby for disability rights are suffering financially.

I am REALLY sorry your family is suffering and I KNOW the policies of the last 20 to 30 years have led to that. LBJ's GREAT SOCIETY was hijacked by a multifactorial approach and I was dealing with the macro elements of it all along.


Since my work deals with labor and disability issues, I am a hell of a lot more on your side than you can imagine.

[SaddenedDem]

31. I'm holding the Democratic party responsible, which....

is EXACTLY what you should be doing as well if what you say is true.

Because it's the DEMOCRATS who betrayed you. Don't you think? After all, it was Clinton's NAFTA, it was Clinton's Right to Work Laws, it was Clinton's labor and disability laws that were harming these people, not Dubya.

It is EXACTLY this experience that should make you anti-ABB. ABB has never done you any good. Why continue to repeat a failed strategy?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

33. You are TERRIBLY misinformed

Clinton was NOT responsible for right to work laws passing in southern states. Right to work laws were written and PAID for by the American Enterprise Institute who then got them on the STATE BALLOTS as STATE propositions voted on by the voters of THOSE STATES.

Clinton PASSED ADA and Family LEAVE which both BENEFITTED you given your circumstances.

He passed NAFTA and I agree with you on that point but the FEDERAL government is NOT responsible for the 18 states that passed right to work laws via ballot initiative.

Many progressives seemed to be happy to sit on their hands or NOT DEAL with the ramifications of those laws.

If countering your arguments with facts makes me a bully then so be it. You are totally WRONG on two out of three.

[SaddenedDem]

35. Sorry, but you are the one who is misinformed

Because it was Clinton's Arkansas which was held up as the example of Right to Work states which got it passed in many other states.

It was GOVERNOR Clinton who started the parade to right to work laws.

How do I know that? Because I was out there in my state begging Democrats not to support it. And they shoved Governor Clinton down my throat in response.

I'm sorry you think you are the only person on this site who has fought these things for years. I just find no need to brag about my failed attempts to stop this runaway train which is the Democratic party.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

38. No he DIDN'T start the parade

While HE DID capitalize on the JOBS it brought to his state, he DIDN'T actively campaign FOR RIGHT TO WORK laws. He DID benefit as governor, however, on the fact that BEING right to work attracted businesses TO his state and he ACTIVELY campaigned for states to REPEAL those laws beginning in 1992 which is WHEN he took office.


I never said I was the only activist on this board, I just simply KNOW I am one of the few given how often people DON'T discuss policy, it's origins nor the actual REAL roots of corporatization which BEGAN at the STATE level pitting state against state during the economic PAIN brought on at the end of the Reagan years.

Got more?

[SaddenedDem]

39. Yes, a GREAT deal more....see post #37 n/t

[SaddenedDem]

37. One more question for you....this is the BIG one for me

How can you defend ABB when the Democratic party is so obviously a continuation of the Clinton presidency who so thoroughly failed you and the things you say you fought for?

Is it not Clinton's appointee who heads the Democratic party? You know, that McAuliffe guy?

Is it not the DNC who this week announced that a 2004 elected Democrat would NOT be addressing Universal Health Care, and Fair Trade?

Is it NOT the Democratic party that has made it absolutely clear they will not support your issues?

It is the voters like YOU who should be screaming anti-ABB the loudest because you have a voice. How is it that you are NOT doing that if you profess to be in support of those issues Democrats consider the third rail of politics?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

40. I think we have different interpretations of failed

Clinton couldn't PASS a program on repetitive injuries with a hostile congress so he did it by executive order which was rescinded by Bush. Some of Clinton's policies were not my policies, on the issues of labor rights, disability, family leave and unions, as PResident Clinton was very much in my court as he was on attempting to pass meaningful healthcare reform only to get shot down and I agree it was chickenshit to back off.

I admit I have missed this announcement and am no big fan of McAuliffe's but would at least appreciate a link or reference and I am NOT demanding Universal care but would want to see insurance reform of some sort.

Um..no...they haven't said they won't support my issues and frankly most of the delegates in congress from my state are on the more progressive side of the fence so I DO claim my work in my state has been a bit effective.

This conversation is starting to go nowhere with your black and white categorizations of everything..but feel free to keep coming at me...if I am around I will respond..lest I am categorized as a "chickenshit bully."

[SaddenedDem]

41. So, you're no fan of the LEADER of the Democratic party

But you'll vote Democratic anyway. See, that's exactly what I mean.

As for the statement from the party, I'm sorry I'm too poor to make a donation to get search privileges, but it was posted right here on GD:04 just a couple days ago.

Since I'm supposed to house a family of 5 on $379.00 per month (housing, utilities and everything but food), thanks to Welfare Reform, I can't afford to donate.

You'll find it though if you search.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

42. Right Terry MacAuliffe is the man behind the curtain

Look McAuliffe is the one that raises the funds to win elections. The agenda is set based on where the funds come from because those funds repersent voting blocks and the ability to compete and survive. He is not the be all and end all and frankly, the PULL came from SOUTHERN politicians which is NOT in my field of endeavor to fight.

I did a search and can't find the statement. If you know who posted it please let me know and I will search it by their name and yes...I can still be a Democrat, have disappointments with the general direction of the party and reject the general direction they have gone while understanding what made them go that way even if I disagree with it.

Sorry that seems to invoke hostility.

Your personal financial problems do bother me and if this is a disability related condition, please PM me and if there is any legal advice I can offer I will be happy to help.

379. a month on welfare for a family of five is a problem and if there is disability involved, then welfare should not be your only available option. I don't believe it to be.

[SaddenedDem]

43. It IS the only available option

Believe me when I say that the state agency TRIED to shove us off on any other agency that would have us.

They are OBLIGED by welfare reform (in my state) to try to assist from any other agency.

If you want to PM me your off DU address, I'll be happy to send you a scanned copy of the Determination of Benefits letter if you believe me to be telling a falsehood.

But here's what it says:

The information listed below helped us make our decision:
Your living arrangement is AT HOME
You requested Food Stamps for 5 person(s).
Your countable resources are valued at $45.00
Your rent per month is $721.14
You are allowed this amount for utility costs $301.00
Your monthly cash benefits are $379.00

And there is the end result of welfare reform.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

44. Please I am not accusing you of anything and am trying to help

If disability extends beyond a certain time period...you and your children can qualify for social security disability since they are dependents. They will ALWAYS deny it the first time but upon appeal it can be beat with proper medical documentation.

If you havenot investigated this avenue, again feel free to PM me and I am willing to send you a referral to an expert in your area who gets paid only if your claim prevails.

I am truly trying to be helpful and am very sorry for your predicament.

[Eloriel]

27. YOUR choice to personalize it, NSMA

but that doesn't make it an ad hominem attack except in your own mind (fantasy).

SD's position is that ABB is whoring one's vote, tho it was stated more causally as "whoring your vote." It was clear to readers who aren't looking for a fight, and who can comprehend the standard casual English.

So it's not an ad hominem attack, not even close. Even when you try to personalize it, as if SD had been specifically describing your unique position, it still doesn't work.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

30. No namecalling is namecalling no matter which side of the issue

you find yourself on.

[indigo32]

20. OK since you edited your post stating that you wish to debate the issue

I'm gonna chime in. Because I'd love to discuss the issue (I'm staying out of your discussion with NSMA).

You stated above...that you are "livin the horror of Clinton welfare reform" I believe. This is why you choose to be against the ABB stand. I am sorry you are in that situation. You aren't the only one here even whom was hurt by that. I never agreed with it. In fact I will be voting for Kucinich in my Caucus coming up. But when push comes to shove. I wouldn't feel like I was doing you, or anyone else, any favors in Nov if I voted third party. If you can't imagine surviving Kerry, how can you imagine surviving Bush? Now again.... I'm not telling you how to vote, and I'm not asking you how I should vote. I'm just looking for your perspective based on the situation as it exists.

[SaddenedDem]

23. You'll find your answers in my post #21

That pretty much sums it up for me. I can't ask my children to live with the reprecussions of any more ABB votes of mine.

edit:
correcting a misspelling in the title

[question everything]

2. Well said, thanks

Just to add - it is not just the war. It is the continuous encroaching on civil liberties; it is the nomination of at least one, perhaps more, of Supreme Court justices. This time, more than before, it is crucial to remove this administration from power. It would be hard enough for a Democratic president to accomplish much with a Republican Congress, but we have to work with what we've got.

No matter what some think of Kerry or Edwards as, possibly DINOs, none would nominate a Scalia or a Thomas to the bench.

[HalfManHalfBiscuit]

3. All progressives/Democrats will be ABB in the voting booth

No matter what they post on the internet.

We will get behind the Democratic nominee and oust Bush.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

4. good post

I think most people will come to their senses by November.

[snoochie]

5. Thanks for this post

Thank goodness for civil people. :)

[Walt Starr]

6. First off, I'm voting for The Ham Sandwich (D)

But I do want to say, comparing the United States in 2004 to Germany when the Social Democrats were unable to form a coalition against Hitler will turn off people whoa are not so disposed to voting for The Ham Sandwich (D).

Second, screeching how people who won't vote for The Ham Sandiwch (D) are traitors is only going to push these people farther away.

Finally, telling people that if they don't vote for The Ham Sandwich (D), they are REALLY voting for Bush* will only result in firming up their resolve to vote for the Little Gerbil (I).

[indigo32]

11. I'll grant you all those points Walt.

eom

[jonnyblitz]

7. the ABB people are getting totally neurotic with worry

ABBers must realize people are going to be upset and bitter during the primarys so now is not a good time to ram ABB down their throats 24 fucking 7!!! it only makes sense. geez

[indigo32]

8. Upset Bitter, Neurotic with worry

is one any worse than the other? I agree that there has been ALOT of ABB here... but there've been plenty of anti-ABB posts too. Lets all all TRY and be understanding of eachother.

[MuseRider]

12. Thanks.

There seems to be a lot of "you're either with us or against us" here these days. Nobody who spends time at an Internet board like this one is so stupid as to not know what is at stake here. It takes time to process a lot of what is happening, where the lines need to be drawn individually, but there seems to be little tolerance for that processing.

[Kanary]

16. So much for "reason"

It ain't gonna happen here.

The habit has been in place for a long time now, and those who like to attack have found this a welcome place for that.

The rest of us will have to either learn to attack back, or find another place.

All the appeals in the world won't help... it only encourages 'em.

Sad, but that's how it is.

Kanary

[SaddenedDem]

18. And I appeal back to you to use reason

Because some of us simply can't square with ABB. With the idea. With the philosophy of it. With the fact that you are voting for less than a representative government when you use that philosophy.

Some of us won't ever be able to buy ABB.

[indigo32]

22. Surely I don't expect to square everyone with it.

I'm not so vain to that I think I could. And at this point I'm engaging you because I'm interested in your perspective. Are you interested in mine? Mine would be that do have representative democracy, but unfortunately it's winner take all.

[SaddenedDem]

24. And, in reply, I can only say this....

There will ALWAYS be a republican "boogie man." When it is that we stop being asked to vote for FEAR and begin to vote for true representation?

You see, I see ABB as nothing more than a fear campaign which greatly mirrors the republican fear campain of "war, war, war."

I see ABB as sheep being led to slaughter, yet again. By our own party, no less.

[Eloriel]

25. It's not about "personal hurts," it's about the bullying

I'm against ABB,and ABBers for a very GOOD reason: that's not what democracy is all about.

Hell, it's gotten so bad here at DU, not to mention hilarious, that if I were ABB to start with I'd probably swing in the opposite direction purely because there are so many fools trying to brow beat me into submission.

Nuh huh. Ain't gonna work that way. The vote is mine. I'll do with it what I damned please. And the more you tell me I can't, or shouldn't, or mustn't, the more determined I'm going to be about exercising MY right to vote exactly as I wish or, in fact, not at all if I wish.

Further, I'm beginning to get a really big kick out of the panic and hysteria over the subject. It's been so amusing it might even be worth provoking further. A few of these people seem about to blow a gasket. That'd be entertaining, wouldn't it?

[indigo32]

28. it's the bullying that causes the personal hurts

that is exactly what I was talking about. People bully, you take offense (rightly), that IS a personal hurt.

Anyway, you'll note I'm not telling you you have to do anything. But you might want to take note that the ABBers aren't the only ones blowing gaskets.

Vote exactly as you wish. For myself, I think we'll do more damage to democracy with a 2nd Bush term than we will by voting for someone who's admittedly let us down.

[Eloriel]

34. About blowing gaskets

Anyway, you'll note I'm not telling you you have to do anything. But you might want to take note that the ABBers aren't the only ones blowing gaskets.

Well, think of it this way. What anti-ABBer EVER told DUers to be anti-ABB? I've seen them express their OWN preferences, but I've never seen anyone suggest to others that they too must be anti-ABB.

The ABBers, OTOH, are all about telling us what we must do with our vote.

Do you see any imbalance here? Any reason why the gasket-blowers on the anti-ABB side should have some justification in it?

And then, just as soon as you've finished saying that you aren't telling me (or anyone, implied) to do anything, you sneak it your sales pitch anyway, all subtle like:

Vote exactly as you wish. For myself, I think we'll do more damage to democracy with a 2nd Bush term than we will by voting for someone who's admittedly let us down.

That's fine, it's a LITTLE better than browbeating and bullying, and in truth it's not in the form of a command or demand. But it is a sales pitch, and a demogogic one at that, IMO.

But it's really nice you see my point and agree that I have a right to vote exactly as I wish -- even if my vote will be singularly responsible for ruining the world if it doesn't match yours. Let's NOT, above all things, put any pressure on the damn candidates to actually represent us before they get our vote. Noooo, that would be some kinda heresy or something.

Actually, what it is is codependence. But that's a subject for another day. Or not.

[indigo32]

36. Hey if you can put in your sales pitch I can put in mine.

and I'm certainly not saying we shouldn't put any pressure on the candidates to represent our point of view. Never in a million years would I say that. Did I put pressure on in my initial post... yes I feel quite strongly about this... as you do about your side of the issue, but I really would like to just talk about this issue.

Yes I understand there is some justification of the gasket blowers on the anti-ABB side. But I don't necessarily think that it's fair to only be understanding of the anti-ABBers feelings either. There are things going on today that affect affect them and me personally. So maybe we could try and see both sides for a minute.

[CityDem]

26. Isn't this great

At least we have a forum to discuss these important issues of the day. Even though we may not agree on everything, communicating like this is a start.

[indigo32]

32. communicating like this is a start.

I hope so. I'm willing to listen.
thx.