NADER? As if we didn't have enough trouble already.

[rpf113]

I guess he realized he could run with Grover Norquist financing his campaign.

I was ready to pop the champagne corks yesterday when I read that some polls had John Kerry leading Bush in the double digits. Then today on FOX NEWS's lead story: Nader entering race. Takes 4% of the vote. Puts Kerry 2 points behind Bush.

So everybody get ready for election 2000 all over again. A race just as close where Nader once again wins it for the Republicans. Then I'm sure he'll capitalize on it, write another book, etc.

Personally I think he's just doing it to get on TV. He's tired of not being the center of attention. THe man is an egomaniac narcisst.

So here's what we're facing already:

1. Bush has almost $200 million dollars in the bank
2. Bush is a wartime president
3. Bush is the incumbent
4. The Democratic party is seriously divided between the Dean camp and everyone else. A lot of voters who would have turned out for Dean will probably stay home on election day.

Even with all of those challenges, and more, we would have a good shot beating Bush. The polls say so anyway. But now we face our number one problem:

1. Ralph Nader.


While Bush starts to win back some of the independents in the next 8 months, Nader will be syphoning off left-wing Democrats and former Dean/Kucinich supporters.

Nader, Nader, Nader. Why can't you just run in the primaries like everybody else?

So thank you, Nader, once again for giving the Republican Party, all conservatives, the Bush Administration and all the other foes of the Democratic Party an ally just strong enough to swing the election for them.

Earth to Nader: What the hell are you doing???

I need to find a new hobby. Politics (specifically Nader) is giving me an ulcer.

[ButterflyBlood]

1. Nader is not getting 4%!

more like a tenth of that.

[rpf113]

4. FOX NEWS poll today,

I just saw it on TV less than half an hour ago. Nader has already picked up 4% of the vote before he has even announced.

[ButterflyBlood]

7. consider the source

enough said

[rpf113]

10. I've watched throughout the primaries...

and Fox News polls have been just as or more accurate than polls done by CNN and MSNBC. Now unless you're a conspiracy theorist that all 3 networks are out to promote Nader to bring down the Democratic Party I think you should take this poll seriously.

[lancdem]

12. Why are you concerned with what's on Fox?

Kind of funny that they commissioned a poll on this, and no one else did. BTW, you do know that there's a real possibility Nader may not even get on the ballot because he doesn't have the Green Party organization helping him get the signatures he needs. Relax.

(BTW, Bush has $100 million in the bank, not $200 million.)

[jonnyblitz]

2. aren't you confident that the DEM nominee will be liberal enough

therefore people won't need to vote for Nader?

[rpf113]

8. No I'm not confident..

When I hear Dean/Kucinich supporters saying they will not by any means vote for Kerry or Edwards it sounds just like the rants we used to hear from the Naderites. No matter if Kerry were the most liberal candidate in history many people will go to Nader just because they hate mainstream Democrats.

[jonnyblitz]

17. seriously, rpf, I dont believe many will vote for him.

I am one of the types that would be attracted to a green candidate and I have NO INTENTION of voting for anybody but the DEM this year.

[HFishbine]

21. That's some pretty twisted logic

If Kerry were the most liberal candidate in history, he wouldn't be representing mainstream democrats now would he?

[SerpentX]

31. Now that Lieberman, Gephardt, and Dean are out of the race

the field is looking more liberal than it has in years.

[buckeye1]

3. Relax.

He will have no effect. Getting on the ballots takes time and money. Ralph has neither.

[rpf113]

5. To the contrary...

Nader will probably get plenty of money from the same Republican PAC's that helped him so much in 2000.

[0rganism]

15. You mean the PACs that gave him $390?

Here's the breakdown of the 2000 Nader campaign funding:

Individual contributions of more than $200 $1,401,663 (16.6%)
Individual contributions of $200 or less $5,737,503 (68.0%)
Federal funds $723,308 (8.6%)
PAC contributions $390 (.0%)
Candidate self-financing $0
Other $570,914 (6.8%)

http://www.opensecrets.org/2000elect/source/AllCands.htm

[HFishbine]

23. Republican PAC's?

Who, exactly?

[0rganism]

6. Earth to rpf113: Nader is the LEAST of our worries

* Running as an independent, no 3rd-party backing
* "not a dime's worth of difference" won't be winning votes this year

Nader will be lucky to get a quarter of what he got last time, and you're crediting him with 4% already? Based on a FOX news story?

Get real.

[rpf113]

9. I hope you are right.

But believe it or not Fox News polls are usually pretty credible. (I'm a poll junkie.) Nader seems to be picking up the ex-Dean crowd. Nader should be one of our TOP worries, IMHO.

[0rganism]

22. The campaign is still young

If Nader's picking up ex-Dean supporters, it's probably due to their immediate sense of frustration after Dean left the race this week. These are people who will NOT be voting for bush in any case, they're still accessible to the Democratic nominee if he shows determination and spine.

[HFishbine]

25. Seems like the solution is simple

Kerry is not impotent on this. Can't he come up with a word or two for liberal progressives? I mean, for God's sake, it's not that hard. Achnowledge that we were right to march against the war, make some promises to break the corporate grip on Washington and Nader's support will evaporate in no time.

[0rganism]

33. Simpler than that, even

Negotiate a spot for Nader in an upcoming cabinet, heading the Consumer Product Safety Commission, for example. Don't compete with directly with Nader for votes -- one could easily lose as many as one gains -- but rather appeal to his tendency to effective activism.

[DFLer4edu]

20. Take it seriously

Faux, isn't a good source for a poll, but don't underestimate the effect Nader could have on the race, regardless of whether he is an independent or has the backing of a party. It is going to be a close election, everything counts. I suggest you poll DUers as to whether they would vote for him (or another 3rd party candidate) if Kerry gets the nomination, than decide as to whether it is a real threat. The weakness of the left is that it is fractured and does not have a specific rallying point. Where as the right has a point around which to rally and does not fracture during the general election. Look at McCain, if any Republican should appose Bush, it should be him. But he is supporting Bush. Give the DU a poll and you'll see how much of a threat Nader is.

[0rganism]

26. Polling at DU is even less reliable than Fox!

Of all the places to run a political poll, this has got to be one of the silliest. Legitimate DUers will vote Nader in the "Support nominee Kerry" DU poll because they want to sway people away from Kerry to their own favorite candidate. This is STILL THE PRIMARY. Get it? And of course we have the requisite share of freepers who will do whatever they can to make the Democrats look weaker than they are.

Not that it hasn't been tried -- from what I saw of the last such attempt, there was 75% support for Kerry. Not bad, for a DU poll.

The notion that the intrapartisan struggles we see on DU will carry over into the general election would be hilarious, if they didn't cause so much stress.

[DFLer4edu]

30. You missed the point

I agree a DU poll is crap, but it does show you that there is support for Nader. If you find a poll crap, than just pose the question. You're going to find there is support from Nader!!! Take the threat seriously.

[0rganism]

35. No, you missed it: This is still PRIMARY SEASON

Any candidate poll will get a certain segment supporting Nader. This is composed of three major groups:

* disruptors who will diss all Democratic candidates regardless
* hardcore supporters who will diss some candidates to make theirs appear stronger
* the (few) people who really will withhold their vote from some Dem candidates (besides LaRouche) but not others

Another thing to consider: Nader doesn't just get significant votes for showing up. He has to campaign to earn them, like he did in 2000. Except this time, he won't have a party organization backing him, booking his venues, going door to door raising support.

[DFLer4edu]

40. I know this is still the primary season

but Nader is still a threat in the general election. Some people are posturing, trying to get more support for their candidate. However, what you call disruptors will most likely vote Nader. And he doesn't have to launch a massive campaign to siphon off votes, his name alone can do it. He has to campaign some, but he can hurt us just by entering the race. Take him seriously! The country is closely split, a "few" lost votes could be the difference between 4 more years of Bush and a Democrat in the White House.

[NWHarkness]

11. With what, a 3 pt. margin of error?

Nader isn't going to draw anything close to 4%, even if he manages to get on the ballot nationwide, which is going to be an uphill struggle for him.

[rpf113]

13. Remember,

3 pt. margin of error could mean he has 7% of the vote. Can't you see that he is going to attract a lot of former Dean and Kucinich supporters. (When Kucinich finally drops out.)

[HFishbine]

27. Well then, Dems needed to broaden their coallition damnit!

Are Dean and Kucinich supporters so freaky that the dems have nothing to offer them? There's no need to move to the left, just expand a little to include some more of the left and all will be well.

[rpf113]

28. No,

Dean and Kucinich supporters need to broaden THEIR minds and allow for some compromise so that all of us on the left can get rid of Dubya.

[HFishbine]

32. Okie Dokie

Good luck with that. I'm hopefully the front runners won't be as narrow minded as you.

[lancdem]

29. Kucinich gets 1 percent of the vote nationally

Why are you looking for reasons to panic?

[delhurgo]

14. People talk about how many percent he will get, but I don't think thats...

...how he does most damage. He'll get on all the talk shows, in newspapers, radio, etc... sewing doubt among leftists/Deaniacs about whether Kerry is pure enough. Not only does this depress the turnout of those people, but also causes the nominee to have to move to the left, away from centrist swing voters, to protect his liberal base. Even if he, Nader, doesn't get many votes, he changes the dynamics of the race, and changes the democratic candidate - making him less electable.

[rpf113]

18. Exactly.

Nader was instrumental in tearing Gore down throughout the 2000 campaign. He will be on every talk show, every news program, every radio show bashing the Democratic Nominee. Dean supporters will flock to him. Maainstream Democrats will get so tired of the mudslinging they'll stay home on election day believing that whoever the Dem nominee is just "Republican Lite", since even Paul Wellstone would have been Repub. Lite in Nader's eyes.

I wish he would just go to some uninhabited island and proclaim himself God, King and Emperor and let his ego soar there.

He is, in my opinion, just as dangerous to us as Busyh.

[coloradodem2005]

16. This Dean Supporter will not stay home.

I am committed to getting rid of Bush and have been since before ever hearing of Howard Dean. Dean did inspire me to become a full-fledged Democrat from being a Dem leaning independent, but Bush did too, by being such a big fuck up.

[rpf113]

19. I'm glad to hear that...

But I think you will find that many of your fellow Dean supporters will abondon ship and go to Nader once the primaries are over. I think that is what Nader is counting on.

[Lefta Dissenter]

34. I'm hoping that if Dean plays his cards right,

he will inspire virtually ALL of his supporters to vote ABB. He made a good start with that speech - he couldn't have been more clear about ABB, and I appreciated that.

He could continue with some real 'get out the vote' work and have a significant impact on this election - in a GREAT WAY!

[rpf113]

36. Look at the poll I posted in this forum.

It shows a considerable amount of people jumping ship to Nader. I'm telling you this could turn out to be a disaster. Dean is a good man and he will back the Dem nominee, but his supporters are fanatics and they will punish the Party for not choosing their candidate.

[Forkboy]

37. Taking a DU poll seriously is like taking a Fox News poll seriously

oh wait,you've already done that too.

[rpf113]

38. Fox News polls are surprisingly accurate.

Check many of them out at pollingreport.com

I think the DU poll is very telling, because the people on thi sboard are generally way to the left of the majority of Democrats. So they can give us an idea of what the extremists in our party will do and I think that poll shows taht a lot of them will jump to Nader.

[Forkboy]

39. I wouldn't bet on that happening

a lot of emotion,and a lot of anti-browbeating,is what we're seeing here right now.When November rolls around I bet 9 out of 10 here will be voting Dem.

[KFC]

24. Nader absolutely knows he can not be elected president

The asshole.

This can be no more than an ego trip, unless he actually is backed by the RNC. But I'm not big on conspiracy theories.

Nader is a very rich man that needs to feed some demons.

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

41. Bush and his cronies are just creaming in their pants... you just know it.

This pisses me off so bad. Yes, Mr. Nader has the right to run; I'm not arguing that point. Aside from Shrub totally screwing the Dems in 2000 with no doubt the help of his brother and that bitch, Katherine Harris, as well as the Supreme Court "selection", this election is way too important to have someone come in and possibly "spoil it." I agree that a vote for Nader is not a vote for Bush, but it's also not a vote for the Democrats.

You just know Shrub and his re-election team are just licking their chops on this one.

[newyawker99]

42. Hi SCRUBDASHRUB!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[devoedem]

43. One of the best potential effects

of a Nader candidacy would be to undermine the stature Bush wants to claim for being a "wartime" President by challenging the entire premise of the militarism inherent in a never-ending "war on terrorism." If he chooses to do so.

[underpants]

44. Nader makes me want to RALPH!!!

:puke: