Nader Delusional? Kerry Detractors Must Tell Nader: Kerry is NOT Bush-Lite

[WiseMen]

Either Nader is a liar or he is really a delusional victim of the “Bush-Lite” propaganda of the current election season. "Washington is now corporate occupied territory," Nader says. "There is now a for-sale sign on most agencies and departments. ... Money is flowing in like never before.”

But, John Kerry is one of only 3 senate democrats to have spent much of their careers working for reform on this issue. Wellstone-Kerry Clean Money Clean Elections bill (S. 982) is by far the most comprehensive effort to get corporate influence money out of the political process. This effort is so far-reaching the it likely will never pass without a Democratic President, House and Senate. A President Nader, despite his pretensions, would not have a chance in hell of moving this agenda forward.

Again, I ask: Will the Kerry detractors ever be satisfied? John Kerry with his “storied past and golden resume” is a unique treasure of the Democratic Party. When Kerry entered the Presidential race he stood head and shoulders above the rest in preparedness for office. But media-magnified attacks began against his presumed “entitlement” to the nomination. He’s too aloof, too nuanced, too ponderous, too distant, too rich, too surrounded by “Washington establishment” politicos.

The 59-year-old John Kerry was one of the most senior and respected leaders in the Senate. But he’s told he is TOO ALOOF to run for president. So the great Senator Kerry reached back to his painful memories of war and war-protest, stripped off the senatorial toga and “Ramboed up” for battle against Bush and his masters who were raping and pillaging the nation as never in history.

Then he’s told he is TOO NUANCED in his positions and PODEROUS in his speech. So John Kerry reached back to his days as a rabble-rousing speaker and remembered how to strike his fist in the air beat his chest and let loose some angry rhetoric to let Democratic activist know he is serious.

Then he’s told he is too RICH and DISTANT from the problems of real people. So John Kerry camped-out in IOWA and got into the farm trenches with some folks who are mad as hell, till hatred Bush and his minions oozed out of his pores.

Then his critics claim he’s surrounded by ESTABLISHMENT POLITICOS, but when the cameras turn on Vets and firefighters surround him. And then there is his Band of Brothers who testify that John Kerry is their Brave Heart who time and again risked his life for theirs and brought them out of that horrible conflict alive.

Now, despite a career of fighting against the corrupting role of money in politics, the Naderites thinks Kerry needs to be attacked from the left on this issue. With Kerry already being attacked as an “out-of-the-mainstream” Hanoi-Jane leftist, can there be a more politically bone-headed, selfish and destructive position to take. Political realism dictates that Kerry try to win some independents or loose the election. But Nader is making that into criminal intent. This is madness.

A Question:

Is it finally time for detractors to rally to John Kerry, tell Nader that Kerry really isn’t Bush-Lite, and unite the party to win in November?

[JHBowden]

1. It doesn't make a difference.

Dozens upon dozens of issues where Kerry is progressive have been listed, but it doesn't matter. Many simply don't like Kerry and shop around for phony reasons not to vote for him. I'm not sure what to do about it.

[sallyseven]

2. Does anyone really

think Nader is going to make a difference? He is very much like the guy who use to run every year and never got elected. I can't remember his name. He was thought to be a fool. A joke and so is Nader.

[JHBowden]

3. 2000 results

Iowa

Gore 49%
Bush 48%
Nader 2%

Ohio

Bush 50%
Gore 46%
Nader 3%

Wisconsin

Gore 48%
Bush 48%
Nader 4%

Oregon

Gore 47 %
Bush 47 %
Nader 5 %

Florida

Gore 49%
Bush 49%
Nader 2%

New Hampshire

Bush 48%
Gore 47%
Nader 4%

Minnoesota

Gore 48%
Bush 46%
Nader 5%

Nevada

Bush 49%
Gore 46%
Nader 2%

Arizona

Bush 51%
Gore 45%
Nader 3%

Missouri

Bush 51%
Gore 47%
Nader 2%

Colorado

Bush 51%
Gore 42%
Nader 5%

[diplomats]

9. Fortunately, this is not 2000

many Nader voters won't make the same mistake twice.

[BigDaddyLove]

39. Exactly right..........

I can't see very many people who voted for Nader then do the same again.

Even those who supported him last time have asked him not to run and most of his fund raising avenues have dried up.

[Sensitivity]

48. Sadly, there is now a new bunch of Nader Voters: ex-- - - - the rumor say

[babzilla]

17. Pat Paulsen, RIP

His joke was on purpose.

[IconoclastIlene]

28. Where is Pat Paulsen when you need him?

We need a real joke candidate not a joke of a candidate...Ralph, the walking anachronism for every failed 60's program that he touched.

Ralph is still unsafe at any speed...watch him go!!

to hell, with any luck.

[Nicholas_J]

35. Ha Ha

I almost mentioned Paulsen in a Harold Stassen post last night but decided to hold the thought.

Ah...remember the days when Democrats had a sense of humor?

[revcarol]

4. Oh, another "everyone line up to support our saviour" thread?

This is really getting old.

You deny that Kerry supported GATT, free trade with China, NAFTA, WTO,IMF...ad infinitum? No corporate influence there, naw, couldn't be.

Etc., etc.

[diplomats]

6. No, Nader's egomania is getting old

He doesn't care about anyone but himself. Why else would he disregard the advice of longtime supporters not to run?

[polpilot]

33. Al From & The DLC could print some signs: "Kerry is NOT Bush-Lite. "

That'll fix it...just say it and it'll be TRUE!!

[AntiCoup2K4]

5. Sorry WM, can't do that.

Kerry has voted in favor of Bush Jr's agenda ever since the Coup. He is fully on board with PPI which is nothing less than PNAC in a "democratic" wrapper. And he's taking money from FAUX news, the official PNAC Ministry Of Information.

Bush Lite? More like Bush Medium, really. The only difference between the two would be that Kerry doesn't use feigned religious fanaticism to get the trailer park vote. Not yet anyway.....

[JHBowden]

7. Dean is much more conservative than Kerry.

Therefore, I don't understand your position. Dean supported the NRA, capital punishment, the flag of southern treason, compromise with business over the environment in Vermont, Gingrich on medicare, libertarian mythology on balanced budgets, and NAFTA strongly.

With the possible exception of NAFTA, Kerry supports none of these. What gives?

[George_Bonanza]

10. Exactly, good job

Dean exudes a pseudo-progressive image with pseudo-progressive rhetoric that cleverly reinvents history as they see fit. Case in example, Dean's moderate rule of Vermont that cannot be described as anything but establishment is shooed away to make way for "Washington Revolutionist Dean". Kerry's liberal past is shooed away to make way for "Washington Status Quo Kerry".

If you're a Kucinich supporter, I can bear the criticism on Kerry because it is wholly free of hypocrisy. However, for a Dean supporter to call Kerry on things such as NAFTA, GATT, etc. is extremely hypocritical.

No matter how angry Dean gets, the fact remains that he is pro-NAFTA, pro-AIPAC, flimsy on gun control, and anti-gay marriage. If you believe that Dean can turn progressive on a whiff, then surely you can perceive Kerry to do so as well, and he has a much more reliable history of being one than Dean. Unless you believe all that media hoopla about Insider Kerry.

[killbotfactory]

18. Still bashing Dean

For fucks sake, he lost. Your guy is about to win. Stop smearing him.

"supported the flag of southern treason"
"anti-gay marriage"

Give me a fucking break.

[Raya]

23. Other Dems are asking Dean for Help. Is that a problem

[Scott Lee]

54. It's a big problem. What does Dean owe those who stabbed him?

I'd say he owes them a big Fuck You. But, the Gov. is quite a magnanimous person and will probably help them even when he has no reason to.

[George_Bonanza]

42. Stop smearing him?

Dean IS pro-NAFTA. He IS pro-WTO. He IS against gay marriage. Just pointing out the facts.

[killbotfactory]

46. "Supported the flag of southern treason"

Dean wanted to amend NAFTA and the WTO. Something Kerry called "protectionist".

Dean praised the Mass supreme court Gay Marriage decision as a victory for equal rights. Kerry said they were wrong.

Give it up already. Dean lost. Stop kicking his corpse to defend Kerry.

[George_Bonanza]

58. I did not say anything about the southern flags

Dean wanted to amend NAFTA and the WTO. Something Kerry called "protectionist".

So does Kerry. I'm sure you have heard of the Kerry Amendment. And Dean called Kerry a follower and Bush-lite. It's called politics.

Dean praised the Mass supreme court Gay Marriage decision as a victory for equal rights. Kerry said they were wrong.

Kerry signed a letter by Barney Frank, back a few years ago, asking the Mass. courts to not ban gay marriages. Kerry's fear was that they would also ban civil unions. And Dean has said more than once that he is against gay marriage. The two candidates' positions are exactly the same. Kerry has risked his neck more than once for gay rights. Again, it's all politics.

I want to leave Dean alone, but then again, it IS hard with continuous attacks about Kerry's successes being ill-deserved and tailor-made by the sinister establishment.

[Eloriel]

16. Each thing on your list is either totally false or twisted

But I suspecte you know that. So I won't bother to take my time to correct the record.

So, MAYBE one reason Dean people aren't flocking to kerry can be seen in this very tactic: the purposeful misrepresentation of Dean's record by kerry and kerry supporters for their own purposes.

Just ONE reason.

[babzilla]

29. what gives with the hyperbolic rhetoric?

Here is Dean "supporting the NRA" on MTP 2-1-04

MR. RUSSERT: Let me turn to the issue of guns because you have been outspoken on it, as governor, as a candidate. Back in Vermont, this was a flier the NRA put out, and they said, "In November we should return a truly pro-gun Governor to office by re-elected Governor Howard Dean." Do you believe that the NRA has been a positive force in America?

DR. DEAN: It has in Vermont. I can't speak about America. I think the NRA is less positive the closer you get to big cities because they have these crazy ideas like you ought to be able to have a bazooka on your front lawn and all that kind of stuff under the Second Amendment. In Vermont, the NRA was very helpful. We did--as governor, I preserved 8 percent of the entire landmass of the state of Vermont, never to be developed. The NRA was very helpful because hunters get that you can't hunt if you don't have habitat. Actually, that endorsement is interesting. You know, I believe in the assault weapons ban, and I believe in background checks and extending background checks to gun shows. I've never met a hunter that thought you ought to have an AK-47 to shoot deer.

MR. RUSSERT: But, Governor, the NRA is against that. They're against the Brady Bill.

DR. DEAN: I know. The NRA is not going to endorse me this time.

MR. RUSSERT: But they said that federal agents are "jackbooted government thugs."

DR. DEAN: Of course, I don't--yeah.

MR. RUSSERT: "Stormtroopers."

DR. DEAN: But George Bush's father resigned his membership to the NRA over that.

MR. RUSSERT: Right.

DR. DEAN: You know, I don't support that kind of crap. I think some of the leadership in the NRA is nuts. But the truth is there are a lot of NRA members that aren't nuts. They're decent people, they're hunters, and they--look, I come from a very rural state. In fact, one of the cases that I make is that I'm going to be able to win a whole lot of union members that vote Republican and a whole lot of rural people because of this one position, that, you know, I'm not--George Bush is going to get the NRA endorsement. There's no question about that. He's letting the assault weapons ban lapse, which I think is a huge mistake. But the truth is because I come from a rural state and I understand hunting and I understand what most NRA members are about, I think I have a much better chance than any other Democrat of beating George Bush for that particular reason.

Dave Neal, who's the head of the UAW in Iowa, once told me that he thought he lost 20 to 30 percent of his members on that one issue alone. Now, look, I'm not going to get the NRA endorsement because I do support the assault weapons ban and I do support background checks and extending it to instant background checks to gun shows laws, but nobody is going to be able to push me around and say that I'm for registration or all that stuff which they're going to do for all the other Democrats because I was endorsed eight times by the National Rifle Association when I was governor of Vermont. That stuff matters. That's an electability issue. And I think that's--those are the kinds of things that make me much more electable than some of the other folks in this race.

[killbotfactory]

32. Insulting the intelligence of Dean supporters is the best way to get us to

support Kerry!

And hey, Dean lost, why stop smearing him? They've had a year of practice! It's like republicans constantly attacking Clinton... sure Clinton's out of the picture, but why should the bashing stop there?

[diplomats]

8. That's flat-out wrong

If you really think a Dem president would've invaded Iraq, passed tax cuts for the rich that led to a record deficit and attempted to stack the courts with RW justices, you ain't living in the same world I am.

[Bob3]

24. & would he have folks like Ashcroft, Cheney, Perle, and Rumsfeld

anywhere near the levers of power? Guys it ain't just *. Is Pat Robertson going to have a say in a Kerry white house? Tom Delay? Come on people - even granting the dubious thesis that both Kerry and * are the same on economic issues - Kerry is not surrounded by a insane gang of bible thumping madmen who are looking forward to the end of the world like most people look forward to a nice dinner along with a scary subset of greed and power mad punishment freaks. Guys this bunch makes Nixon's people look like high minded public servants.

And I'm not even mentioning the stock watching sec. of labor ("outsourcing is good")and the gutting of EPA and FDA.

Purity is a nice concept but all to often you end up being pure in a jail cell or you get an ice pick in your head.

The stakes are too damn high for this gibberish.

end of rant.

[Sensitivity]

44. How long are we going to keep the anti-kerry B.S. going?

[anti-NAFTA]

11. I'll tell him that.

Because it's not true that Kerry is Bush-lite. He's Lieberman-lite (or Bush-lite-lite).

But joking aside, I'll start fighting for Kerry if he's the nominee. Edwards still has a chance. This is a primary not a G-ddamn coronation.

[Eloriel]

12. Hahaha

Kerry detractors don't need to do a DAMN thing about Nader. Not a damn thing.

Nader is YOUR problem, and your CANDIDATE's problem, not ours. We didn't dream him up. We didn't encourage him to run.

Hell, as for "rallying to John Kerry," you might want to check out your facts: Kerry isn't even the nominee yet (and if you doubt me, just ask John Edwards -- he'll help set you straight).

And to imagine that Nader was influenced by Dean's "Bush-Lite" charge against Kerry is laughable, predicated on the notion that Nader can't see for himself, and/or doesn't have his own history of criticizing the Dems for their pink tutu-ness and complicity? It's also pretty insulting to Nader, a man I'm not overly fond of, but still there's no GOOD reason to be insulting towards him in this regard.

I'm just drop-jawed about your whole post -- too bad I don't have the time (or interest) to deconstruct all the nonsense in it.

[Raya]

13. Dean has to call Nader and Say Bush-Lite stuff is CRAP. It could cost

the election.

Nader has obviously been under the illusion that Dean, and perhaps Kucinich, supporters
are going to rally to him as the standard bearer of the anti-washington
protest vote.

Vocal rejection by Dean and Kucinich supporters will likely be the only thing
that will influence him against the tragic course he is on.

[George_Bonanza]

15. Dean would fit under Bush-lite as well

He's pro-NAFTA, pro-AIPAC, and was a proponent of big business in Vermont. Surely, he cannot have the ego to think himself exempt from Nader's moralistic scorn simply because he ran a nifty campaign?

[Eloriel]

20. Dean has to do precisely NOTHING

for the people who raped him.

What he WILL do remains to be seen. But I can tell you this: petty little demands by people stomping their pretty little feet about what Dean MUST do probably won't be that effective.

But it IS amusing. So carry on.

[Padraig18]

21. Why is it incumbent on DEAN to do so?

That makes NO sense...

[Raya]

22. Because Dean spent a year ATTACKING Kerry with that CRAP. Kucinich

and the experience enought to know it was bad for the party to
do that B.S.

[Padraig18]

40. That was a love tap, compared to what KKKarl has planned.

If Kerry is that big of a wimp, he should drop out now, and save us the electoral humiliation that such a mindset would guarantee.

[Eloriel]

55. He couldn't have attacked him about it if it weren't true

Sorry, but Dean was just telling the truth. And I guess the Osama ad wasn't "bad for the party" or anything.

But Kerry got him back but good, didn't he? Won "fair and square" in Iowa and NH and all that. I don't think there's anything Dean needs to do in light of the dirty tricks Kerry served up for Dean. Kerry's just lucky Dean isn't bothering to tell the truth about him NOW. I'm hoping that he will, though, once November has come and gone.

[Scott Lee]

26. Got any other commands for Gov. Dean?

[babzilla]

31. I'm sure all it would take is a phone call from Dean.

Anybody have Ralph's number handy?

[George_Bonanza]

14. Contrary to popular belief, Kerry HAS stood up for his beliefs many times

1) Vietnam War
2) Iran-Contra
3) BCCI
4) DoMA
5) John Ashcroft
6) Pro-Life Supreme Court Justice Appointments
7) ANWR
8) Afghanistan

And there's many more but those are some of the bigger ones. Anybody who says Kerry never stands up for anything is obviously not telling the truth.

[Scott Lee]

30. Let's see how Botox flip-flopped on these....

Vietnam: Nowadays he's kind of cozy with the idea of US interventionism. He calls it "Progressive Internationalism" which is a kinder gentler imperialism. As long as his ass is no longer in the sling, he's all over it.

Iran-Contra: I appreciate what he did in this regard. But his late coming epiphany to the PNAC/Progressive Internationalist movement compromised this stand, to say the least.

DoMA: He opposed it, but oddly enough, he opposes gay marriage. Untangle that nuance.

John Ashcroft: Lip service against the new gestapo, and then he ended up voting for the Patriot Act.

ANWR: He fillibusters Bush-holes ANWR proposal, but suddenly we find out through James Hoffa that Botox not only is ok with ANWR drilling, he wants to "drill all over the US". The Sierra Club is gonna love that.

CIA Funding: Botox sponsors a bill that would have cut the CIA budget by 1.5 billion. Then after 9/11/2001, he weeps and wails at the lack of good intelligence gathering.

Kyoto Treaty: He criticized Bush-hole for withdrawing from the Kyoto global warming treaty in 2001. "You don't just walk away from a treaty 160 countries over 10 years," he said. But in 1997, Kerry voted for a resolution, which passed 95-0, saying the United States "should not be a signatory" to the treaty.

The list goes on. Kerry is about as consistent as a teenage girl's wardrobe concerns.

[Padraig18]

19. Sorry, WiseMen, not my fight.

You're welcome to do so, however.

[Scott Lee]

25. Kerry is another version of Bush-hole

The two men are virtually identical on their positions and philosophies on the major campaign issues.

Pick your lollypop - lime or cherry. They both get sticky and turn your tongue colors in the end.

[Rose Siding]

47. And don't forget! Kerry's going to bring Baker on board.

James C "the fixer" Baker III. Something about a pesky ME problem that Baker's just the right fit for.

[Scott Lee]

52. Baker the antisemitic PNAC advocate. It's fitting!

As Senator Botox is quite the fan of PNAC.

[readmylips]

27. Quit it! This is becoming a Nader free advetisement....

to hell with nader.

[Raya]

34. Someone has to deal with Nader. Just by being on the Ballot, he will take

votes, if only from folk out of touch with what's going on.

[Nicholas_J]

37. Democrats

took the largest popular vote in U.S. history in 2000. And that was before they had Florida, Iraq, tax cuts paid for by massive deficit to be pissed about. I think Nader will not only be less of a factor in 2004, but he will be abandoned by many who blame the possibility that Gore's win would have been both electoral and popular in 2000 if Nader was not in the mix. But even with Nader in the mix, Gore won the popular vote by a significant margin. Anti-Bush is now a greater weapon than Pro-Nader.

And this time, expect the DNC and the DLC to be digging thouroughly through Naders records and connections.

[WiseMen]

38. Wrong! Polls show the NEW anti-Washington block is now saying "Nader"

It is stupid. But some of these folk couldn't vote in 2000 and have
no idea what this could complicate winning the electoral college.

[IndianaGreen]

36. I won't defend Kerry!

Let those that wanted the Kerry coronation shoved down our throats be the ones that defend Kerry. I won't!

[Eloriel]

56. Eggggsackly

I also like what someone upthread said: Ain't my fight.

Hell, I don't even see it as any of my damn BUSINESS. The DNC/DLC and certain others in the Washington Establishment manipulated things so that they got exactly what they want -- Dean out, the people's voices suppressed, one of their boys as the frontrunner. They insisted on controlling things, so they can just goddamned well go on and control this.

I'll make some popcorn.

[CWebster]

41. Nader is right

and that is what has so many people besides themselves.

If we hadn't been railroaded into no choice but Kerry as any choice than we wouldn't be in this fix and it's only going to get worse. We will be trapped with Kerry.

[WiseMen]

43. Kerry has the most progressive record of the candidates: ADA 93, LCV 96

Not even DK compares. That is why his detractors choose to pick
a few votes to argue with rather than the full record.

How can the Repub be talking like Kerry is to the left of Mao
while you folks are calling Kerry bush-like.

You can always find votes to attack a senator on. That is the
nature of the U.S. legislative process -- negotiation and compromize.

[Scott Lee]

53. Progressively republican, maybe

Kerry supported Bush-hole on:

The Iraq War

The Patriot Acts

NCLB

ANWR drilling (late breaking event - ask Hoffa)

The PNAC agenda (progressive internationalism = neoimperialism)


Progressive? Chyaaa. If you have one whacked definition of "progressive".

[George_Bonanza]

59. Allow me to refute

To say that supports Bush on the Iraq War is wrong. He consistently warned Bush against rushing to war. Spin it any way you want, to say that Kerry was and is a supporter of the situation in Iraq is wrong.

The Patriot Act was a sad aberration that engulfed many stalwart liberals, like John Kerry. It is not a universal indicator.

John Kerry does NOT want to drill in ANWR. He clearly stated that he wants to continue drilling in Alaskan territories where they are already drilling, but the ANWR is sacred to him.

Kerry has more sympathetic Palestinians views regarding the Israeli-Arab conflicts than any of the other major candidates.

Is Howard Dean your man? If so, to attack Kerry as a non-progressive just means that your candidate is even worse. If you're a Kucinich supporter, I can bear your criticisms much more openly.

[Liberal Veteran]

51. Railroaded? How do you figure?

We went out and voted in the primaries. Kerry won. Not just once, but over and over again.

He wasn't my first choice either, but I have no reason to suspect any foul play.

[Sensitivity]

45. Pundits are saying Dean drop-out is reason for NADER RUN ot grab DEAN VOTE

Dean supporter have a real responsibility to disenchant Mr. Nader.

[quaker bill]

50. What a load of fertilizer.

I am sorry but we have no responsiblilty toward Mr. Nader what so ever. Mr. Electability can handle this.

[Eloriel]

57. No we don't. Not even close.

Frankly, if that's the case, if Nader is going to make a pitch for my vote, I rather think I like that. Seems to me I learned back in Civics class in h.s. that that's the way it's supposed to be.

I'm not predisposed to liking Nader, and it'll be damned hard to pry me away from writing Dean's name in in November, but I can certainly dig it that he's going to try to actually earn my vote.

What a concept!

[quaker bill]

49. In answer to your question

No, it is not time for this "detractor" to rally to Kerry's aid. Despite your encouragement, I could not in good conscience stop calling Kerry Bush-lite. He would have to stop being Bush-lite first.

That aside, I have no problem calling Ralph Nader a jerk in any forum. His run is based in nothing more than vanity and if at all successful will only do further damage to the causes he supports.

That pretty well meets my definition of a jerk.

[Sensitivity]

60. Rumor Dean is going to speak out against Nader run. Anyone heard more?