I blame Kerry and the DLC for Nader's run. Absolutely.

[homelandpunk]

Nader can say there is no difference between Bush and Kerry and point to IWR, Homeland Security, and Patriot Act. Had Kerry not supported and been suckered by a chimp, and not voted for IWR and Patriot Act, Nader would not be running, because he could not say "there is no difference". Yeah, I believe the real reason is ego masturbation, but the fact that Nader says the reason is "there is no difference" gives him a supportable justification to those who will vote for him. So I blame Kerry. And I blame the DLC, which should have seen the Nader run inevitable with a candidate Nader could accuse of being Bush's equal. It could have been Dean. It could have been Clark.
I will not buy the argument some of you will give that Nader would have pointed to something else if it had been Clark or Dean, to justify his running. Even if he had, the justification would not have been bought by the large numbers who, on the other hand, WILL agree with the justification in the case of Kerry (or Edwards). Hell, in the case of IWR and Patriot Act, even I will agree with Nader. Won't vote for him, but will have to agree. This re-run of Nader could have been prevented, but we belong to a party who doesn't like to give clear, opposite choices during an election because Rush might call them bad names and that is just too scary for these pink tutu's.

[Guaranteed]

1. BINGO.

"we belong to a party who doesn't like to give clear, opposite choices during an election because Rush might call them bad names and that is just too scary for these pink tutu's."

And if that doesn't change, the party will die.

[sangha]

8. Did Bush* give "clear, opposite choices" in the 2000 Campaign

or did he campaign as a moderate and compassionate conservative?

[Guaranteed]

14. That was a different time...moderation was "in" then.

America was not at an "ideological fork in the road."

Now we are.

[polpilot]

51. What did the pro-war DLC expect when promoting a pro-war candidate?

Action...reaction.

[mike_c]

2. well said....

We have only ourselves to blame for the current state of the Democratic Party. Nader might be an opportunist, but dems provide the opportunity time after time.

[Frances]

5. It's thinking like this

that gave us Hitler and Stalin

While the left was shooting at each other over idealogical purity, the thugs laughed and took power

[Guaranteed]

No, it's the cowardice. That's the whole point of the post.

Do the right thing, everything will be fine.

Do the WRONG thing, and YOU'RE splitting the party. NOT the other way around.

COWARDS are bringing the party down. After all, they DO vote with Bush's policies. How can you even logically call that an alternative?

[sangha]

11. Trell that to Martin Luther King Jr or Gandhi

both of whom were assasinated

Do the right thing, everything will be fine.

[Guaranteed]

12. You think they failed simply because they were assassinated? nt

[sangha]

27. Changing your argument

Before it was "Everything will be fine". Now it's "failure"

I would argue that while they were successful (they went a long way towards achieving their goals) their assasination does not fall under "everything will be fine". I suspect they would agree that being murdered is NOT "fine"

And if you're saying that you will successfully reach the right goals (and trying for bad goals would not be "doing the right thing") if you do the right things is redundant.

[mike_c]

30. hmmm..., how many angels can dance on the head...

...of an off-topic pin?

[Guaranteed]

45. LOL okay you're right..."EVERYTHING" wasn't fine

They knew what they were getting into, though, and accepted it for the sake of what they knew to be right.

[For PaisAn]

3. Absolutely

correct

[still_one]

4. I will take a different stand

I think Nader will actually hurt the Republicans more than the Democrats. He was implying that the lies about the Iraq war are impeachable. As much as he may be trying to say there is no difference, most of his dialogue will be against Bush

[diplomats]

21. There's also going to be a huge backlash against Nader

that could help the Dems. In fact, the backlash already started before he announced. This is not like 2000 at all.

[JI7]

6. nader said al gore would have gone to war with iraq

[Guaranteed]

10. Nader was wrong. nt

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

7. Yes, he can point to three votes for the attention impaired

[Guaranteed]

17. You know that Kerry and Edwards didn't even vote against the PBA

ban, right?

[JI7]

29. John Kerry did vote against it

[JI7]

32. nader doesn't think roe v wade is all that important anyways

he said even if the supreme court overturned it, it would still allow states to keep it legal if they want.

[Guaranteed]

48. Nope...look:

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=108&session=1&vote=00051

[bornskeptic]

56. Kerry voted against the PBA ban at least four times.

He voted against it in 1995.
Clinton vetoed it and Kerry voted against overriding the veto in 1996.
He voted against it again in 1997.
Clinton vetoed it and Kerry voted against overriding the veto in 1998.
I don't know why he didn't vote in 2003, but he was trying to get his campaign off the ground and he had just had cancer surgery. Anyway, there was zero chance that the bill would fail with or without Kerry's vote. It passed 64-33. Had Kerry been present, it would have passed 64-34. So what is your point?

[Guaranteed]

61. Yeah, he voted against the first Gulf War, too

What's changed? Why NOT cast that vote? What's EDWARDS' story?

Not politically expedient?

[Forkboy]

63. Which would be most of the voters in this country

[AntiCoup2K4]

9. Very well said!

The DLC forced out the candidates who had a chance of debating Bush and defeating Bush. Kerry is neither. The only reasonable conclusion is that the DLC doesn't want to win this election. They certainly have enough practice losing elections, while also destroying the Democratic party from within.

[flpoljunkie]

13. No, the voters in Iowa, New Hampshire, and 13 other states chose Kerry,

not the DLC. Most voters have never even heard of the DLC.

[IndianaGreen]

57. People in Indiana have yet to cast a vote in the primary

and we have some people urging us to join in the Kerry coronation.

[Dookus]

15. No

the voters "forced out" the candidates who didn't win. And somebody who can't win a single primary is unlikely to win the GE. And unlikely is a euphemism for "has the same chance as a snowman's balls on a hotplate".

[diplomats]

18. Excuse me, the voters chose Kerry and Edwards, not the DLC

Besides, what's this about the DLC losing elections. You ever hear of Bill Clinton?

[homelandpunk]

39. Yes, I've heard of Bill Clinton. Have you ever heard of

a phenomenon ...a force of nature ...Clinton was Clinton in spite of the DLC. Nothing but assassination would have stopped him from being elected twice. Phenom's like him come around once in a while. The rest of the time, politician's are politician's, and fights have to be chosen on the basis of being in the OPPOSING PARTY.
Are you pro-DLC?

[loftycity]

16. Money is the issue..that 200 million that Bush has stacked up

is scaring the Dems. I believe the DNC is backing Kerry because they know they're going to need the Heinz money.
That Bush 200 million could double to 400 million by October.

I'm not a Kerry supporter--I'll vote for him...

I don't know what Nader is up to--I hope he would land blast the lies of the Bush admistration from the LIHOP and everything after.
But, he's seems more bent on calling the Democratic Party on the Carpet. I don't get it--he has to know how the media is skewed.
The puzzler for the next couple of weeks.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

62. Ya think

The DLC might be privy to the rules of the little organization called the FEC? The Heinz money is usless.

[slinkerwink]

19. you are correct------the DLC is to blame for marginalizing the left

and moving to the right.

[Pepperbelly]

20. To blame anyone other than Nader is silly.

It was his decision alone and you suggest he does not bear the responsibility?

That is absurd.

[rpf113]

26. Exactly.

This is just another attempt an ego-boost for a sad, pathetic man with nothing better to do than wreak havoc and destroy everything he's worked for his entire life.

Stop blaming the evil DLC. They are meaningless now. Stop blaming mainstream Democrats and calling them conservatives. They only look that way to you because most of you are to the left of Lenin.

The Democratic Base spoke up and have chosen Kerry and Edwards and I'm sick and tired of the damn conspiracy theories that the DNC and DLC have microchips stuck in all our heads forcing us to vote for one candidate or the other.

Nader is running purely so he can get facetime on the cable news networks and pontificate about how perfect he is and how the Dems adn Repubs are the same. They are not THE SAME. Anyone who is not completely blind to reality should realize that by now.

A Democrat in the white house would not have gone into Iraq, would not have given a huge tax break to wealthy, would not be wrecking the economy, racking up huge deficits and the like. There has never been more difference between the two parties than there is right now.

[Leilani]

35. I agree completely

Couldn't have said it better.

[Lindacooks]

22. How about women's privacy?

And the raping of the environment?

And tax cuts to the already insanely wealthy?

And 2.6 million lost jobs?

And the starving of the middle class?

And the increase in infant mortality rates?

Draconian cuts in public education?

Cuts to non-profit organizations?

Anyone who says that there's no difference between Democrats and Repukes is certifiably insane.

[Guaranteed]

23. See post #17 nt

[LoZoccolo]

24. Nader could pull the party to the center.

I could see them thinking it's just too important to win, to try to court a vote that's established itself as irrationally fickle, that would risk getting none of what it wants trying to get all of what it wants, will disregard stuff like SCOTUS appointments coming up, etcetera. The DLC was formed to win elections, and if it's too hard to build a coalition with the further left, it'll go where it has to to compensate.

In this scenario, the Green Party or Nader will still not win. At best a further-centered Democratic party will win. At worst...fuck I don't even wanna think about it.

[IconoclastIlene]

25. Anyone who votes for this loathsome megalomaniac is to blame.

Anyone who manages to NOT unseat the shrub by voting for any 3rd party candidate gets what they deserve, the government they are gonna get if there is another term in office for the shrub.

Let's not dance around the issue.

See Ralph run.
Run Ralph run.

Run away, Ralph, please.

Back at ya!!

[diplomats]

28. I'm sorry, but these rationalizations are garbage, IMO

Ralph Nader is not even a Democrat, and we're supposed to give rat's ass what person he thinks should be our nominee? Please, he got less than 3 percent of the vote in 2000. He wants us to move the party to the extreme left to pick up those voters while losing millions of moderate voters we need to win? That's a recipe for political disaster. I don't want to see a single elected Dem try to massage Ralph's ego. I know a lot of liberals who used to highly respect Nader, and not even one has anything but contempt for him now. He's become nothing more than a joke.

[LandOLincoln]

34. Is it okay for me to say, "I told you so?" I've despised Nader

since the late 60s, especially after talking to a very bitter and disillusioned former Raider.

But it's good to see so many come around to the views I've held for most of my life. Just wish it had happened 4 years sooner. I'm afraid it may be too late now...

[readmylips]

31. Naders Ego is more likely.....

Nader needs to be ignored. You're taring down Kerry in favor of Nader. Quit it.

[G_j]

33. it sure is too bad DK was written off from the start

after the nomination that clearer voice will have disappeared..enter Nader

too late now...

edit: I guess I should have said almost too late.

if you haven't had a primary or caucus in your state yet, please consider voting for Kucinich!

[ShaneGR]

36. The truth is we could nominate Jesus Christ himself

And Nader would say there was no difference between Bush and Jesus.

He's a Bush enabler, plain and simple. A traitor to the progressive cause.

[adadem]

37. Exactly. n/t

[rpf113]

38. Could not be said more clearly.

I believe that Nader has been sent by Satan to help the Republicans. So he probably has an axe to grind against Jesus anyway.

[homelandpunk]

40. I addressed your argument in the original post. (n/t)

[Guaranteed]

49. Everybody would vote for Jesus, though

;)

[AntiCoup2K4]

65. Jesus Christ would never win the nomination

They would say He was "too liberal" and He's no fan of corporatism.

[Crunchy Frog]

41. I blame Nader for Nader's run.

It looks like he has the same type of belief in personal responsibility that our beloved pResident has, or at least his defenders do.

I guess in Bush's America, nobody is responsible for their own actions.

[Scott Lee]

42. 100% right on!

Bush-hole and the PNACers never had such great friends as they do in the DLC.

[JHBowden]

43. Quit making excuses for Nader's calumny.

Kerry, one of the most liberal senators, is not a warmonger. Of course, Nader and his supporters believe that Gore is a warmonger.

Are you guys impervious to reason?

[G_j]

46. maybe not but a few

of his foreign policy advisers are raising eyebrows. If you want a link, I'll provide one.

[jeter]

44. That's nonsense, since Kerry isn't DLC.

The DLC isn't anyone who disagrees with you or isn't Dennis Kucinich. Its an actual organization.

Kerry has never been part of the DLC. Nor did the DLC support Kerry now or ever.

The DLC lost in this nomination battle too.

Time to get facts straight.

[homelandpunk]

47. The facts are the DLC did NOT want Dean...

They had to be for SOMEONE. Or are you implying they are without an agenda in this whole matter of elections?

[G_j]

50. no argument, they attacked Dean big time n/t

[Tinoire]

55. Hmmm. Kerry not DLC? He's their effing poster boy.

[Capn Sunshine]

52. The Kerry wing of the party created this. No question

They ignored Naders statements that if Howard Dean did not get the nomination he (Nader) was going to run as an independent.

Now that Nader has lived up to his word, what happened to Kerry's "electability"?

If JK is electable, no one here would be making ANY fuss about Nader running.

IF.

[Old and In the Way]

54. We don't believe in blackmail Capn...maybe you do.

Your choice obviously didn't gain traction, you think I want to nominate someone because Ralph will run if we don't?

What are you, a pink tutu Democrat?

[bornskeptic]

59. Kerry will most likely win with or without Nader.

Dean would not have a snowball's chance in Hell of winning even if Nader didn't run. Of course the DLC didn't want Dean. No Democrat with the least trace of common sense wanted Dean. Dean in the general election would have made Nixon-McGovern and Reagan-Mondale look like squeakers. But the DLC never pushed for Kerry. Their candidate was Lieberman, and you see how much good that did for Lieberman. The DLC always considered Kerry to be too liberal and too "nuanced and boring" to be electable. So did the media, and so did the Republicans. It was the Democratic voters who chose Kerry, and judging by the way Rove and company have been hammering at Kerry for the last three weeks while leaving Edwards alone, it appears that the Republicans think the Democratic voters made a wise choice.

[Old and In the Way]

53. Nader is a liar and lackey of the Republican Party.

Democrats are choosing John Kerry because he is a progressive Democrat who can win against a bunch of chickenhawk neocons. Republicans are pitching Ralph again in hopes of draining votes....posters here can bloviate all they want, but it doesn't change the reality. Support Ralph or any 3rd party candidate and you want Bush to win this election. No sale.

[library_max]

58. Murder or suicide.

Great choice. Run left and guarantee the defeat of the nominee, whoever it turns out to be, or run center and try to win and we'll do what we can to take the left away and defeat you anyway. Kill yourself or we'll try to kill you. Murder or suicide. Great choice. Sure works for Bush, doesn't it?

[Piperay]

60. I blame nader's ego

he just loved the role of spoiler and can't get enough of the publicity he gets from it. GOP must be pretty worried so they send their boy nader out once again to ensure chimp gets 4 more years.

[NightTrain]

64. Couldn't have put it better myself!

But if you check GD, you'll see numerous examples of my having tried to! :)

[cindyw]

66. I blame myself for the ants on my dinner table.

After all I forgot to wipe off one of the place mats.

But I squish the ants anyway. I think that very well describes this Nader thing.