Should people be tombstoned for saying that they agree with Nader

[Guaranteed]

on the issues?

[IndianaGreen]

1. If you think I am about to endorse the war in Iraq, PATRIOT, and NAFTA

you are dead wrong!

Not even the Republican Party demands such brain washing!

[BeatleBoot]

2. Just go to a Nader Dot Com Website

and enjoy yourselves.

I know you might get like 7 people posting one another but..hey!

This website is for Democrats!

:kick:

[Darranar]

3. Many Democrats happen to agree with Nader on the issues...

I can see banning people for pledging to vote for him, but simply for agreeing with him?

[Walt Starr]

9. I'm having a hard time believing some of this stuff

Quelching dissent on DU. I never would have though I'd see the day when Democrats who admit they agree more with Nader than with Kerry would be tombstoned.

Shit, I agreed more with Nader than with Gore in 2000. I still voted for Gore.

[BeatleBoot]

19. No, you misinterpret me, I'm sorry...

Vote for whom you want...

But, as I take it, if you align yourself with Nader, then you align yourself against my wife and my kids.

It's very simple, really.

Guess who I'll fight for?

[Walt Starr]

4. I admit it, I will agree with Nader far more than with Kerry on the issues

Doesn't mean I won't vote for The Ham Sandwich (D) come November 2nd, though.

[jonnyblitz]

8. me too but I would never vote for him. n/t

[Darranar]

23. Same here.

[donco6]

5. Dems only

Independents can get their own board.

losersRus.com?

[Darranar]

7. As I said above, plenty of Democrats agree with Nader...

on the issues.

So what?

I'm probably to Nader's left, yet I am a Democrat and I support ABB.

[donco6]

25. Yeah, I know

So I recant and say they shouldn't be tombstoned.

But I do think he's being an idiot for running. Not that he'll draw much support this time around.

[Darranar]

28. Nader is more than an idiot...

he is a traitor to all the causes he claims to represent.

As are his enemies in the Democratic establishment.

[jonnyblitz]

10. you shouldnt be so bigoted towards independents

some of us vote Democrat everytime.

[donco6]

22. Oh, all right.

Not tombstoned.

I'm just really irritated with that idiot right now.

[0rganism]

53. Are those the same Independents you hope will vote Dem in November?

You certainly take their support lightly, one might almost say "for granted". Calling them "losers" is certainly not going to be seen as a term of endearment.

[JHBowden]

6. Kerry agrees with Nader on the issues.

Therefore, why the fuck is Nader running? He must like the GOP.

[Darranar]

11. No he doesn't...

Nader is opposed to the PATRIOT Act, the attack on Iraq, and NAFTA.

Kerry voted for all three.

[JHBowden]

14. Kerry did not vote to attack Iraq.

And even Wellstone voted for the Patriot Act, much of which is set to expire. On everything else from CAFE standards to gun control, Kerry is hardcore.

I hate the way people defend Bush around here.

[Guaranteed]

15. Are you saying that Kerry was against the war? nt

[JHBowden]

18. Kerry would not have attacked Iraq.

Why would Kerry go through all of that effort to get Bushler to go to the U.N. if he was gungho about it?

For the love of Jebus, stop and think!

[Guaranteed]

21. Kerry said that he would attack "as a last resort."

Plus, he knew what Bush was doing. We all knew. Kerry rubber-stamped it.

[BeatleBoot]

24. "He knew what Bush was doing" ??????

Excuse, me.

What are you talking about?

That is just plain nonsense.

Do you do your homework? Bring it on....

[Guaranteed]

29. Um....yeah, didn't you?

We both know that Kerry's a smart guy.

[BeatleBoot]

32. Prove it

If I am sitting at a bar and someone comes running in saying that "the aliens have landed", then its not up to me to prove it.

Its up to the person making the claim.

So prove it.

[Guaranteed]

37. This should be sufficient:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1054331

Enjoy.

[BeatleBoot]

38. So, an Unscientific Poll is proving your point?

Zoiks!

I still don't get it.

[Guaranteed]

40. LOL 222 votes to 2 votes to 3 votes doesn't convince you? nt

[BeatleBoot]

52. Nope.

It really doesn't.

I'm being extremely honest with you.

Meanwhile, back in reality...


On edit: Are you a Democrat? Just asking...

[edzontar]

61. I am a Democrat, and I knew Bush was plotting war and so did

Kerry---or else he is an idiot, and since I do not think he is an idiot, then I mkst assume that he decided to support it, KNOWING AS WELL AS I DID WHAT THE END RESULT WOULD BE.

WAR.

Kerry voted to authorize the Iraq war.

Repeat it for a few hours and it will sink in.

[BeatleBoot]

67. I Repeat This Every Night

Bush is a threat to my wife and my kids.
Bush is a threat to my wife and my kids.

And then I live this every day:

Bush is a threat to my job, my wife and my kids.
Bush is a threat to my job, my wife and my kids.

Kerry was lied to, Congress was lied to and so were you and I.

Get real.

[edzontar]

72. Bush is a threat to a lot more than your wife and kids

He is a threat to the nation and the planet.

That is why-AND I'LL SAY IT FOR THE MILLIONTH F-ING TIME-I am voting Democratic for president this year.

But Kerry supported the war. With his vote. It's in the history books.

Nothing you can say will ever change that.

[Darranar]

20. Yes he did...

Oh, sorry... I mean he gave authorization for Bush to attack Iraq if all other attempts to disarm Saddam of his nonexistent weapons of mass destruction failed and after Bush tried to get the UN on his side as hard as he could.

And who decides, according to the resolution, when all other attempts have failed?

George W. Bush!

How convenient...

And on the PATRIOT Act, Kerry voted for it. That means that he supported it. Nader opposes it. Therefore, Kerry does not agree with Nader on that issue.

So I have provided three counter-examples to your statement. Please admit that it was incorrect.

And how exactly was I defending Bush?

[JHBowden]

30. Would you prefer Bush over Paul Wellstone?

Kerry is more liberal than Wellstone on several issues, such as DOMA. Both voted for the Patriot Act when Bush had 90% ratings, something that would not have happened if Bush was not in office.

In addition, Biden-Lugar would have tied Bush's hands if liberal hardliners like Boxer would have gotten on board before Gephardt fucked us over. The Republicans fell in line, and we got stuck with a flimsy resolution. Somehow this implies Kerry is a warmonger.

Wise up and get with the program. Kerry is one of the most liberal senators in the Congress and is in close agreement with Nader on just about everything.

[Guaranteed]

33. Kerry's NOT a warmonger. He's just weak!

That's the point!

I want someone that's going to stick up for us! I'm not even a Green...I'm a centrist (a pre-Bush centrist). But I KNOW bullshit when I see it, and Bush was spewing it from every orifice of his body. The Democrats SHOULD HAVE STOOD UP FOR WHAT WAS RIGHT, goddammit! If they're not willing to do that, they need to get the HELL out of DC.

When *I* don't do MY job, *I* get FIRED.

[Donkeyboy75]

54. I think he also acts as a politician on the issues

In my opinion, he voted yes on IWR because if the Iraq war was successful he would have been totally unelectable. So, he hedged his bets, knowing that later he could say that he was misled or didn't support the war, etc.

[BeatleBoot]

58. You are not a Green, but a centrist (pre-Bush)

But you never said that you were a Democrat.

Interesting.

This is a website for Democrats, but you won't admit to being one.

Tell you what.

I'll admit to it right now, how about you?

I am a Democrat. I am not a sissy.

I am a Democrat with big jewels. And I am proud of it. I am not a sissy.

And you?

[Guaranteed]

59. Are you trying to start a witchhunt? nt

[BeatleBoot]

70. Nope. Just trying to be real here.

Be who you want to be, but just be real about it.

That's all.

Here's me: I'm a Democrat. An honest to God Dem.

Like John Lennon said: Just Gimme Some Truth.

How about you?

[Darranar]

35. Firstly...

where did you get the idea that I was a Nader supporter, or that I would prefer Bush over anyone?

I have pledged to support the Democratic nominee, whether it is John Kerry or John Edwards or Zell Miller or a pile of trash on the side of the road. My avatar doesn't say "Anyone But Bush" because I like the look of it.

Secondly, Wellstone voted AGAINST the Iraq War resolution. Kerry voted FOR it - and he knew when he did that there was no requirement that Bush would have to return to congress in order to get approval for the invasion.

That is totally inexcusable.

Thirdly, Nader opposes the PATRIOT Act and NAFTA. I am not aware of Wellstone's positions on the latter, nor are they relevant to the current debate. If I may bring us back to the subject, you said that Kerry and Nader agreed on the issues.

They do not.

Please admit it, unless you can refute what I have said.

[IndianaGreen]

26. Kerry voted for what Ted Kennedy called "the war resolution"

Kerry and many of his supporters are the only people that think that IWR was not a war resolution.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

41. From the horse's mouth:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/issue_marapr_2003/JKessay.html

I support the Bush administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq. Iraqi President Saddam Hussein is a renegade and outlaw who turned his back on the tough conditions of his surrender put in place by the United Nations in 1991.- John Kerry

[Darranar]

43. Who cares if he supported the goal of regime change?

There is nothing wrong with doing so.

The question is whether he approved of the use of force to achieve that regime change.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

46. I care.

If he didn't support it, what were the 23 "No" votes all about?

[Darranar]

48. I agree...

Kerry did support the use of force against Iraq.

But that quote doesn't prove it.

That was my only point.

[Guaranteed]

12. I actually DON'T agree with him on many points

but how the HELL am I supposed to vote for someone that's been voting with Bush for three years?????

[benburch]

13. Tombstoned???

Does that refer to something I am unaware of?

Or just Pizza?

[Darranar]

17. It's DU slang for "banned"...

because on a banned person's profile page there is a tombstone.

[Darranar]

16. So now we should ban people because...

they are considerably to the left of the Democratic nominee?

As the anti-Nader people love to remind us, this is DEMOCRATIC Underground.

We believe in democracy, and all that stuff about freedom of speech and expression.

Right?

[edzontar]

63. WHO ARE THE BRAIN POLICE?????????

nt.

[corporatewhore]

27. Bring On the Purges!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[JHBowden]

31. You guys are masochists.

You'll enjoy it. You'll get the added bonus of feeling abused and persecuted.

[RandomKoolzip]

36. LOL!

That's funny, but oh so true. A lot of this pro-third party shit stems from some extreme martyr syndrome....and a total drama queen approach to politics. The more "underrdog" they are, the happier they are.


Compromise is central to American politics. Sorry.

[BigDaddyLove]

39. You're right about the compromise bit........

but do you think that just because someone wants to hear what the Nader's, Kucinich's, Sharpton's etc. of the world have to say, that when push comes to shove they won't pull the lever for whoever the Dem nominee is?

I want to hear as many voices as I can, but I know that in the end this is only a two man (two party) race, and that Bush must be de-throned above all else.

[RandomKoolzip]

49. I was dumb enough to vote for Nader in 2000.

And I'm not afraid to admit my mistake. I understand the desire to find the most ethically unstained candidate possible. I understand white guilt. But.....My error in judgement led to Bush taking the White House, and eventually to over 500 American men and women dying in the desert. There is blood on my hands. ("so who's the martyr now," shouts the man in red on my left shoulder...)

Hearing what Nader and Sharpton (not Kucinich (who in a perfect world WOULD be president)) have to say is one thing; hearing what they have to say with the jaundiced ears of an informed voter who realizes where their campaign money is coming from (the right) is another. I don't have to step in dogshit to know that it's dogshit.

I'm sorry if you guys are feeling bullied, but....I feel, and I know a lot of ABBers also feel, that we've come so far in this fight and to abandon the cause at this point for the sake of adhering to a nigh-impossible ehical standard is hurting ALL of our collective causes. So I hope you understand WHY we are angry and why we are pleading with you all this way.

And to answer the original question: No.

[legin]

34. I don't know who moot is

but they've got a cool name so I voted for him/her.

Vote moot 2004

[edzontar]

42. I don't think we need any BRAIN POLICE on DU.

I probably agree with Nader on ten times more issues than I do Kerry.

But I will vote for the Sandwich for the good of the nation.

But admitting that should not get me or anyone else banned.

I would ASSOME that the ABB brigade actually DOES want progressives to vote for their boy?

Right?

[BigDaddyLove]

45. While I don't have a 'boy' in the race that I can call my own......

and I'm firmly ABB, I can't imagine that anyone would want to vote for someone who has no chance of winning when the stakes are so high.

[edzontar]

65. The poll is about AGREEING with him issues-any issues.....

It is about THOUGHT--not votes.

[NC_Nurse]

44. I voted for

Nader in 2000 which didn't make a damn bit of difference in NC, a very red state. I like many of his ideas which none of the other candidates, save Kucinich have the cojones to bring up and support. I don't know who to support this time, I liked Dean, but he's out. I like Kucinich but that's not likely to happen either. I ran Clinton's door-to-door campaign in this state in 1992, but I was disappointed with him (although I'm glad he won over the poppa of the shrub!). I will vote for the Dem nominee in the GE, but I am not impressed with the frontrunners(s).
I think Nader being in it could help by focusing on the administrations bull**** and having him bring up some issues that would not see the light of day since Kucinich isn't getting any press.
I heard he said he would drop out and endorse someone else (which surely wouldn't be *) in October possibly...maybe I'm wrong.

[InhaleToTheChief]

47. Agreeing with Nader...

...and voting for him are two different things. While a lot of people here are angry at Nader, he has brought a lot of progressive issues to the front over the years and his ideas should not be blacklisted among Democrats.

And what about when Nader and the Dem agree on the issues? Can you say you agree with Nader then?

Sorry, I'm for an open discussion, Nader included.

[mitchum]

50. No. Agreeing with, and shilling for, Nader are two very different things

[The Magistrate]

51. Indeed, Mr. Mitchum

It is urging a vote for Wrecker Nader, and threatening to vote for Wrecker Nader if not placated in some manner, that are reprehensible. Many, myself included, agree with some positions adopted in particular questions by Wrecker Nader. It is not stance on issues that is in question here, nor is that a thing of any great importance. What is of importance is that a vote for Wrecker Nader assists the criminals of the '00 Coup in their struggle to stay in office, and this makes Wrecker Nader nothing but a tool of the worst elements of reaction in our polity, who ought to meet nothing but rejection and scorn from leftists everywhere.

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[NC_Nurse]

57. Couldn't he put more

heat on the chimp than the Dem nominee will be willing to do? Couldn't this help us in the end?

[The Magistrate]

60. He Could, Ma'am, But He Will Not

Wrecker Nader, like all members of that most self-serving of trades, the political, will want to get some votes, and he can get these only on the left, as consumer advocacy and regulation of business will render him anathema to rightists of any stipe. In furtherance of this desire, Wecker Nader will come to concentrate his fire against the Democratic Party, proclaiming it indistinguishable from Republicans, and coupling any criticism he makes of Republicans with a similar criticism of Democrats, in an effort to appeal for votes to precisely the same sort of people you see here on this forum making similar arguments. That is the only constituency he has; that is the constituency to which he must make his appeal. It is doing that which makes him what he is, namely a left-deviationist tool of reaction, and it is only those of similar bent who will support him.

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[rhite5]

68. You make an important point., NC Nurse

The more voices speaking out substantively against the policies of this administration the better. Nader can do so without risking anything.

Our eventual nominee will have to be more circumspect.

We all saw the lesson of what the media did to Dean. They can do that to anyone. They chose the "silent treatment" and ridicule to keep Kucinich's voice unheard. It is the media that controls what is allowed to be said.

By Summer, it may only be Nader's voice that can and will make the serious charges from the Left on a national platform.

I am almost certain that is his sole reason for launching a candidacy. He has no intention of getting elected, obviously.

What he has to say needs to be heard by the voters.

edited to clarify which poster I am addressing.

[not systems]

55. For agreeing with him? Hell no.

For trying to get people to vote for him and strengthening Bush. Maybe.

Depends on the state I guess.

If the state is Florida then that crosses the line.

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

56. Call me crazy,

but I think unless we're dealing with straight-up Freepers, we shouldn't rush to tombstone people. I'm just saying.

[edzontar]

62. The real shock is not that the fascist brain police POV is losing...

But that 33 % of poeple who claim to be progressive support TOMBSTONING peopel for agreeing with Nader ON ISSUES, even they do not support his candidacy.

If these folks get their way, welcome to BRAIN POLICE underground--where your very THOUGHTS can get you banned.

You MUST SUPPORT the IRAQ war--because Nader opposed it.

Ypou MUST SUPPORT ANWR drilling, because Nader oppsoed it.

I mean can't some of you see how impossibly FASCIST this is?

[JHBowden]

64. You're incoherent.

Most Democrats do not support ANWR drilling or invading Syria. Nader sympathizers are comfortable with this, though.

[edzontar]

66. What you just said makes no sense at all.

Remeber-this is about THOUGHT and Expression, not votes.

[JHBowden]

69. Express support for a second Bush term someplace else.

I hear that shit on Faux News; I don't need to hear it here.

[edzontar]

71. I don't support either Bush or Nader, but I might agree with some

Of Nader's issues.

So what? I'm not voting for him, and never did.

PS:You seem to be a little hot under the collar over this issue.

My advice: Relax. The election is months away.

Nader may not prove to be that much of a threat after all.