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Ron Paul decries Civil War, claims Union should have bought the Confederacy's slaves (No, seriously)

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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 07:40 PM
Original message
Ron Paul decries Civil War, claims Union should have bought the Confederacy's slaves (No, seriously)
Edited on Mon Dec-24-07 07:58 PM by Occam Bandage
No, this isn't satire. He claims the South should have been allowed to secede and form their racist slave-nation, and if the Union didn't like it, they should have simply bought and freed slaves until there stopped being slaves.

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-talk/2007/12/post_6.html?hpid=sec-politics

He was also the only member of Congress to vote against so much as recognizing the Civil Rights Act on its 40th anniversary, claiming "this law unconstitutionally expanded federal power, thus reducing liberty."

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul188.html

But he's not a racist.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. He's crazy.. and he's got a cult.
My son said there are bunches of students at his college who think he's just what the Dr ordered. I think they must be some ditzy students...
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. You ain't kidding
They have literally invaded every single email list I am on. I am so tired of their ignorance. At first I enjoyed having political discussions with them. But most of them are just not deep thinkers.

They remind me of Jesus freaks. LOL
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
67. And a blimp. Don't forget the blimp.
http://www.ronpaulblimp.com

(I only wish this was fake)
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penguin7 Donating Member (962 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
2. The civil war was so wonderful
We developed all that good technology to kill and maim our fellow human beings.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Splintering the United States
Edited on Mon Dec-24-07 07:48 PM by Occam Bandage
into two (or more) mutually-antagonistic nations would have worked much better. That way we could have had a series of endless border wars and decades of slavery!
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. See: Iraq
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. I think splintering Iraq would be very dangerous as well.
The only reason I think it's at all a good idea is that I have severe doubts that a single central government will ever be capable of imposing a realistic monopoly of force.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
40. One reason the Union couldn't be split was that America would then
be drawn into European intrigues. It was assumed that the British would have sided with the Confederacy and France with the Union. It would have spelled the end of America as an aloof power in the west.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
4. I thought you were being a wise guy/girl. It's shit like this that truly makes
me wonder about some of the posters here. They like this guy. Not many, but a few.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
5. kick
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
6. Yes, far better that farmboys and immigrants paid in blood, rather than the state in dollars.
First, let me be clear, I fully recognize and acknowledge that Ron Paul is an unapologetic racist.

That being said, I will confess that when I heard Ron Paul bring up his view on the Civil War, I found it not only startling, but fascinating as well. I'd never, in my 58 years on this earth, heard anyone make such a point. I am a Minnesotan, and have no first-hand knowledge of the South, so perhaps his argument is old hat to my southern compatriots. All I can say is, I have never heard it articulated before.

The point I am referring to is the point he made about how every other slave-holding "Civilized" nation -- that is, all of England and Europe, freed their slaves without going to war over it. I already knew that, but it was the very first time that I had encountered the direct question of "why?" Why couldn't it have happened in our country, too? What exactly was going on here that made bloody war appear to be the only recourse?

So I found myself mulling the question over in my mind, as I sincerely found it an interesting and valuable question. For me, it was a completely new frame, and I felt honor-bound -- as a curious and open-minded progressive -- to look through it, and see what I could see.

We ought never be afraid to examine all questions.

sw



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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Slavery was only one issue that divided this country then
I honestly can't think of a way the slavery issue could have been resolved without a war. It was a lot more complicated here than in other countries.

I also want to know when all those other countries freed their slaves. Was it AFTER the Civil War here? If so, maybe they wanted to avoid a similar conflict.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. Often earlier, but in Europe slavery was nowhere near as profitable as in America. (edited)
Edited on Mon Dec-24-07 08:35 PM by Occam Bandage
Slaves were much as they were in the North, before Northern states abolished the practice: primarily servants and occasional "spare hands." In areas with institutionalized plantations, slavery continued until either war, revolution, decolonization, or political pressure (usually from churches or other nations) forced it to an end.

Edit: Forgot to actually include link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolitionism#National_abolition_dates
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. Quick answer -- I know for sure that Britain ruled slavery illegal before our Civil War. As for the
other European countries, my impression is that it was also before our Civil War. But I have not closely followed the whole history of that time, I just file away bits of interesting information as I come across it.

The "complications" were obviously economic. It should be remembered, when states go to war, there are ALWAYS economic reasons at the back of all the rationalizations offered.

War makes rich people richer, powerful people more powerful, and corrupt people more corrupt; and they all soberly decree to the masses that sending their children to murder other people's children is simply the only possible course of action.

The People should ALWAYS question the state when it comes to war. War has NEVER been in the interest of the common man, it only profits the state and its symbiots, the plutocracy.

sw
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angstlessk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. puuuulllleeezzzz the north could purchase an unending array of slaves
Edited on Mon Dec-24-07 08:26 PM by angstlessk
that the south imported from Africa..it would have done nothing to stop the slave trade..WHAT AN IDIOTIC PREMISE!
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. What's wrong with hypothesizing about what alternatives there might have been to war?
What's wrong with asking the question: what forces were at work in that particular time in history that led to war rather than some other solution?

To me, it's an interesting question -- an intellectual exercise. The war was fought to prevent secession, first and foremost. What if the Washington D.C. government had said, fine, don't let the door hit you in the ass; and then had proceeded to organize economic sanctions against the slave states in concert with non-slave Europe?

Would it have taken more or fewer years to bring the South to its knees if they were left isolated and unable to sell the products of its slave system? Would it have been worth not spending some hundreds of thousands of lives of America's children?

Of course, such a course would have undoubtedly hurt some very powerful international big money interests. Why shouldn't we ask who profits from war, even old wars?

What I'm saying is, there might be something useful to learn from asking such questions.

sw

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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. Alternatives
Actually non-slave England and France were very heavy supporters of the South during succession. If the South had won a clear victory at Antietam in 1862, both France and England were prepared to recognize Confederate States independance. IMO the easiest way to end slavery in the South would have been to invent an reliable mechanical cotton planter and a mechanical cotton picker. Planting, tending and harvesting cotton was the overriding need for a large labor force. Slaves provided that labor. Slaves are expensive, they have to be bought, fed, clothed, and sheltered. If a planter could replace a large number of slave with machines that would do the same work I suspect they would jump at the chance. Just as New England factory owners replace workers as soon as relabale machines became available to do what ever it was that needed to be done.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. Thank you, that's very interesting. (nt)
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #26
53. The willingness of Britain to recognize the Confederacy may be over-stated
There was always a lot of talk about it, partially just to mess with the US, but Britain's population would not have stood for it. Despite the obvious geo-strategic advantages to Britain of relations with the Confederacy, the populace was very much on the Union's side on moral grounds. The war devastated the British textile industry, yet unemployed mill workers held rallies urging Lincoln to never give up. Very touching, that. Britain had all of her recent moral capital tied up in abolition... the great accomplishment of the empire in the early 19th century.

Or so I have read. (quoting Spinal Tap)
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #53
54. and also
the main thing going for the South was their cotton supply. at that point in time, England had an oversupply of cotton, so when the South tried to threaten them with withholding cotton, it backfired.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. Was there some changes in that during the war?
I am pretty sure British mills were shuttered for lack of raw materials at some point. I thought cotton production in the colonies was increased because supplies were cut off.

Maybe there was a shock when war broke out, and then Britain developed other sources so that by the end of the war they didn't need the Confederacy.

I'm hazy on this.

In any event, the British knew from the start they couldn't run the Union blockade with commercial ships. Our deep water navy wasn't a match for them, but it didn't need to be. Not much point in a trading partner you can't trade with.
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #55
56. i'm going from memory, but at some point i can go through some books
basically, (again from memory so it may not exact, but it's close) due to some circumstance (i can't put my finger on from memory) Britain had a glut of leftover cotton from the year + prior to the outbreak of war and the South's "boycott" and so England was able to laugh off the the CSA's threats.

i think the real reason they (and France) dangled the prospect of recognition was economics - they were still involved in the arms trade with the south.

i am completely ignorant however, if they ever stopped selling/trading arms with the CSA at any point.

there's also the theory that they enjoyed the US going through war as revenge, and that was the reason behind their "possibly" recognizing the south. i can't say there's anything credible about that other than opinions. i don't think they were wrong for what they did (they we're looking out for themselves, and some views hoping the coming American "empire" would be stopped) but most of the writings/views about are wrong in my view. i think it was almost entirely economical, with a sprinkling of revenge, and a tiny dash of thinking the south could win.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #56
59. Okay, the glut was at the beginning of the war
Edited on Tue Dec-25-07 01:44 AM by Kurt_and_Hunter
From the bumper crop of 1860 and from cotton rushed out of the south ahead of the blockade.

The south ended up holding onto their cotton because they thought Britain would want to come get it, and thus be motivated to use her navy to break the blockade.

But Britain had surplus cotton on hand, so announced they would honor the blockade, rather than entering into a state of war with the US.

Don't know what happened later. I think they ran short at some point while turning Egypt and India into bigger cotton exporters, but at a time when the Confederacy was obviously not the side to bet on.

I remember the story of the unemployed British mill-workers rallying against slavery because it's so moving, but I don't know when that anecdote was from... probably like 1964 or something.
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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #56
78. from memory
There was a glut of cotton in 1860. The Southern boycott failed partially because of this but also because the British had started receiving large quantities of good cotton from Egypt. The Confederacy was able to buy weapons from British manufacturers up till 1865. The British Govt never sold weapons directly to the South. They allowed British weapons manufacturers unrestricted access to the Southern Market.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #55
69. Yes they did, in fact: The "other source" was called "Empire" and the target was "India"...
That's when the Indian textile industry really took off and British expansion into control of India got serious...
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nealmhughes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #53
85. Britain had already meddled with the Republic of Texas and had a bit of sadness that they were
admitted to the Union, ending their potential ally in the West.

France outlawed slavery at the end of the Ancien Regime. Brazil was the last Western country outlaw slavery, in 1886, under Dom Pedro II. All children born after after 1871 were already freed.

The former slave owners found wage slavery much cheaper than chattel slavery, which required a lifetime of material support, and the effect of Jim Crow and labor laws and "merchant-planters" made them as dependant as slaves, only with none of that pesky feeding, clothing and sheltering -- why one could even charge ex-slaves rent for their hovels they had once been forced to live in and make a profit out of that!

Britain chose to use Indian and Egyptian cotton eventually over US. Who knows what Crazy Napy III in France was thinking with Max on the throne of Mexico?

But Alabama, for exmaple, sent commissiners to Britain before secession to trade arms for cotton in 1861, the records are at the state archive, and very very interesting, and little studied. Hmmm, PhD out there for someone, eh?
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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #14
24. Slave trade from Africa
If I remember correctly it was illegal to import African slave after about 1824. There is an item in the constitution to that effect. In the 1850s, our Navy was involved in suppressing the African slave trade, along side the Royal Navy. The idea of buying the slaves in the South was floated around several times in the 1850 by various abolitionist groups.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #14
37. The slave trade ended around 1820
There was little method to import new slaves. The British navy captured all slave ships anywhere. The US Constitution stipulated the importation of slaves end in 1820.

The south could not have gotten more slaves with the money... maybe smuggled in a small number of incredibly expensive slaves as a gesture, but not in any broad enough sense to continue a slave economy
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. true, but the slave trade was huge in the South after that
thanks to breeding and interstate/intrastate trading. that was still legal.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. True. I was responding to the assertion that the south could have taken the money for existing
slaves and turned around and imported more slaves with the money. (That's what the post above said.)

Charleston newspapers from the 1840s still have slave auctions from ships advertised, so there was a renegade slave traffic, but it was technically blockaded. And one assumes that enforcement of the Constitutional ban on new importation would have been part of any grand bargain that involved compensating slave-owners.

For that matter, one assumes that purchasing all slaves would be part of a national ban.

But by 1860 it wasn't about the money. The south was defined by slavery.

(Sniffa, this next part is not directed at you... just a handy note for people reading the thread who may wonder about the phrase.)

Slavery was famously called the "peculiar institution" of the south. It is peculiar in the sense of defining and unique, not peculiar as in strange. Like "Gila monsters are peculiar to North American deserts." The south was the only place in Christendom slavery was still legal (except Brazil), and the institution defined the south vis-a-vis everyone else.

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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. oh, totally agreed
my post was mainly for others (and an attempt to goad you into more info) as it seems most people are ignorant of much of our history from that time, and the decades prior. i blame Gone With The Wind.
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angstlessk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #42
46. excuzzzze me...that is why the south wanted to succeed...AND...unless I am mistaken
the north was already purchasing all the cotton the south could produce..so why the HELL would they sell the producers of cotton to the north??? just askin???

IF YOU THINK PURCHASING SLAVES WOULD HAVE PREVENTED THE CIVIL WAR...CHECK OUT THE OIL IN IRAQ!..THEY WERE SELLING IT!!!
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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. You have totally convinced me with your use of caps
Edited on Tue Dec-25-07 12:19 AM by tammywammy
BTW, I recommend the book Inhuman Bondage: The Rise and Fall of Slavery in the New World by David Brion Davis. http://www.amazon.com/Inhuman-Bondage-Rise-Slavery-World/dp/0195339444/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1198559900&sr=8-1
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. The north wouldn't have taken delivery of the slaves...
The idea under discussion (whatever it's practicality) is compensating slave-owners in exchange for freeing their slaves.

The great majority of the slaves would have stayed put growing the same cotton, but been paid for their labor. And they would have been charged exorbitant rent on the chicken shack they lived in until they ended up owing the plantation money... that's pretty much how emancipation played out in a lot of places.

Note the large black populations throughout the south today. There was never a danger that all black labor would leave.

It is hard to see how freeing the slaves would have created a labor shortage. Being paid hourly wages below subsistence, I imagine the plantations would have gotten more labor cheaper, plus having all the money from the government for freeing the slaves.

The south did not refuse to free the slaves because slavery benefited them economically so much as because they had convinced themselves that 11) owning slaves made you an aristocrat and highly civilized person, and 2) they had convinced themselves that the slaves would kill them all given half a chance. (It's called projection.)
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angstlessk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #48
50. like today, it would cost way to much to support a slave - minimum wage is cheaper
a slave costs more than minimum wage today, the food, shelter and well being of a slave is way too costly ..it is cheaper to maintain the minimum wage even at $7.50 per hour!!!
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #50
52. Yup. A man will work for 1/2 the calories he needs to stay alive,
because he will die slower.

The mid-19th century working class was worse off than even slaves. (That's why the top blew off every country in Europe in 1848.)

Slaves were not well off at all, obviously, but unlike industrial laborers, at least someone had a rooting interest in their children staying alive as capital.

The capitalist of the era didn't give a fuck whether your kids died, and wasn't all that worried whether you died. As long as there was a line of applicants you were a machine part to be run hot until it failed. A bakery laborer would work a 19 hour day then catch 5 hours of sleep on the mounds of dough he had made, so his body heat would help it rise. So he was really working 24/7.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #48
87. It could have possibly worked
Wasn't that pretty much the plan that worked in Jamaica?

And there was a rise in the number of free blacks anyway living in the south up to the Civil War, especially as free blacks bought the freedom of their still-slave relatives.
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #46
49. YOU HAD ME AT CAPS LOCK
the north didn't need their cotton supply anymore as they were able to produce some of their own, and import it from non-CSA states and overseas.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #46
86. The idea was to purchase their freedom
There wasn't an intention to bring slaves north. The northern states sure didn't want them. Some northern states had very strict laws about African-Americans even entering or staying in their states.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. Why could it not happen here, you ask?
The simple answer is profitability. Slaves were not profitable in England. Slaves were not profitable in Continental Europe. Slaves were extraordinarily profitable in America--and still would be to this day, if you look at our illegal-immigrant mistreatment.

Bloody war was the only recourse because the South insisted it be so. It was a war over slavery in part, but more than that it was a war over self-determination, and one fundamental question: does a distant majority have the right to impose law (for benefit of all) on a group that does not wish to be subject to that law? On one side, the belief that "tyranny of the mob" was tyranny as loathsome as that of a king. On the other, the belief that a representative democracy does not function if members can decide they do not wish to submit to its laws--"liberty and union, one and inseparable." And underlying all of this was constant conflicts of morality and profit motive, with neither side having a monopoly on either motive.

Could a distant majority legally tell a minority to stop their profitable labor practices?
Could a distant majority legally impose import tariffs that were exploitative towards certain geographical areas?
Could a dissatisfied minority decide that law no longer applies to them, and write their own?

Slavery was the most visible test case of this conflict. And had the South won the Civil War, the very concepts of governance (specifically, the omnipresence of nation-wide law) that allowed slavery to be banned in other nations would have been rendered toothless. Slavery would disappear the day that free labor was no longer more profitable than paid labor.

Ron Paul's suggestion that the North could have simply "bought and freed" every single slave is, frankly, ridiculous.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #15
34. I would disagree on the economics
For producers, in an expanding population slavery cannot be more cost effective than wage slavery, though it might feel that way. (The US was expanding so fast that population actually increased throughout the Civil War.)

Wage slavery requires no capital investment and paid workers will work for less than subsistence if need be.

It is hard to see how freed slaves could, on average, have earned their 'worth' as property in wages. (By 1860 slaves were incredibly expensive.)

The south wanted to retain slavery because owning people had become the basis of their cultural structure more than their economics. If every slave had run away one night it would have been cheaper to import free Irishman to do the work for slave-wages. And if their children starved it represented no capital loss to the employer.

This is not to say that a transition from slavery would not have been disruptive, but look at black wages in the deep south in 1910. Hard to reduce your plantation labor costs more than that.

The south had developed a rich mythology about black people that was needed to justify slavery to themselves. Blacks had to be sub-human and incapable of taking care of themselves, or else the whole ethical rationale for slavery would collapse. And if they were not all potential murders, why all the chains? Then, in time, they came to believe their own rationalizations. They were terrified of the idea of free blacks.

And after a while they felt trapped because they honestly believed the slaves would kill them all if freed. The Haitian slave revolt in the early 1800s was a powerful force in reversing the incremental movement toward abolition. (Without that frightening example, slavery might have passed away in the US by 1850.)
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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #34
79. rich mythology
The view that blacks were less human than whites was also a very prevelent view of Blacks in the North.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. And almost universal among whites in the north!
It seems doubtful that Lincoln believed in practical racial equality either. (Legal equality is another matter.)
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #6
43. Not A Practical Alternative, Ma'am
The money was not there. Average value of a slave at the South was usually pegged one thousand dollars on the outbreak of the war; the slave population was on the close order of four millions. Thus the 'value' that would have been insisted on would have been about four billions. Average yearly receipts of the Federal government in the decade 1851 to 1860 was about sixty million dollars. The only way to have raised the sum would have been through a bond issue of staggering size even set against the global economy of the day: for a further sense of scale, total exports from England, manufacturing center of the world at that time, were in 1860 valued at about nine hundred million dollars. Over the term of the bonds, the total cost would have ranged to two or three times the face value. Essentially, the whole country would have been working for the plantation owners for two or three decades. That the free states of the North would have voted themselves into such a condition to free Negroes is inconceivable.

When Czar Alexander 'freed' the serfs of Russia, it was the mouzhiks themselves who were required to pay off their feudal obligations, calculated in money amounts, and paid over time with interest, a species of mortgage in which they were themselves the collateral. The result was an even worse wracking than had gone on before, and no real freedom from the noble landlord. Had such a scheme been attempted as a means of 'emancipation' at the South, the result would have made the share-cropping of the Jim Crow era seem a paradise of equality by compare.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #43
66. You mistake the point I was making. If you read the body of my post,
...you will see that nowhere did I actually address the specific argument of "buying the slaves to free them".

I was attempting to point out that merely raising the question, "Were there any alternatives to going to war?" is not in itself a bad thing.

One can mount a coherent argument against the specific idea of "buying up the slaves" on logistical and financial grounds, no problem. What actually interested me was the larger implied question: Was war truly the only recourse, and if so, why?

I've always enjoyed questions that bump up uncomfortably against unquestioned assumptions. To me, the idea that there was no alternative to fighting the Civil War is one such unquestioned assumption that perhaps merits some closer examination.

I hope I have made myself clearer.

sw
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. Understood, Ma'am
But it is my view there was no other way. Violence is very seldom the proper course, but on occasion it is, and a peculiarity of those occasions is that nothing but violence will serve the turn for them.

"You want to be the great humanitarian? You want to save the world? Pick up the gun."
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #68
72. What of the option of allowing the Secession to take place?
Even absent the slavery issue, the violence brought to bear on places like Kashmir, Chechnya, Kurdistan, etc. demonstrates the intense antipathy of powerful states to let go of territory, and their rule over said territory.

As I disbelieve in American Exceptionalism, I see no reason not to examine the Civil War under that particular, seemingly universal lense. States first and foremost go to war to protect their power.

sw
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. If One Is Easy With Continuation Of Slavery, Ma'am
That course could be considered. I would not view that as peace, myself: slavery has long been recognized as a sort of war between the owners and the owned, dating back to Roman and even Spartan law.

It is also unlikely that on standard grounds, the Federal Union remaining at the North would have been willing to tolerate a quasi-hostile neighbor situated as the Confederacy was. Too high a proportion of the nation's trade flowed on the Mississippi, which the new state could have choked off at any moment, bringing destitution to the midwest. Rivalries in the western territories, too, would have provided continual flash-points for conflict: the gold and silver of Nevada and California would have been fought over, they were far too important to national economies and governmental solvency not to have been..

Once things reached the pitch they did with the discarding of the Missouri Compromise, there really was no way out without a fight.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. No, not "easy with the continuation of slavery" -- because it would have ended eventually no matter
what. That was the way the Western collective mind was going, as well as the rise of technology and industrialization. Change was inevitable.

Aside from that, you have made my case -- at the root of this war, as in any other war, lies control of resources.

sw
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. In My View, Ma'am, It Would Not Have Simply Ended Of Its Own
A variety of totalitarian countries have demonstrated that the most modern of means of industrial production were quite compatible with slave labor. The political culture of the South defined itself around slavery: it was its identifying characteristic in its own self image, and they would not have cared a rap what outsiders thought.

My analysis above was meant to illustrate that even absent slavery, the war would doubtless have been fought had secession occured or been peaceably allowed at the start, but that is not quite the same thing as saying at the root of the fighting was control of resources, like all other wars. Slavery was the central point in dispute that led to the secession, and without it, the regional disputes of the young Republic would never have reached the pitch of secession and civil war they attained.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
7. If the Civil War had been ONLY about slavery, he might have a point
And really, he is no more of a racist than Goldwater, who voted against Civil Rights legislation for the same reason. I see it as racist but a lot of people who knew him claim he wasn't a racist.

I got into a debate with a freeper the other day on this very topic. She kept insisting Goldwater wasn't a racist. I finally said, fine, we don't need to call him a racist but he was definitely an idiot. He went to Ike for help with a tough re-election campaign and then he went on the floor of the Senate and criticized him. During his presidential campaign, a supporter who was a soft drink distributor had a special drink made for him called Gold Water. Goldwater took a sip, spit it out and said "tastes like piss". Then he voted against the Civil Rights Act. So nah, he doesn't need to be remembered as a racist, but he will forever be known as an idiot. LOL
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
9. If we would have divided then Bush would have been president of the south.
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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Uh...* is from the North.
He congealed in CT, was 'educated' at schools in New England.

If we had divided, * wouldn't have ever been in a position to be selected.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
32. The Bushes are from Connecticut.
Hard to get much more Eastern Establishment than that crew: old money, Andover and Yale, "summering" in Maine, Skull & Bones, Wall Street jobs, etc.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #9
88. It would be northern president Bush
negotiating treaties with southern president Albert Gore.

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leaninglib Donating Member (268 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
10. Ron Paul decries Civil War... Let's see, over 700 million Americans were killed...
Hmmm...I think I shall decry the War Between the States as well.
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. You have a few too many zero's there...
...I think the deaths were about 600,000; both sides included...
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leaninglib Donating Member (268 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 06:40 AM
Response to Reply #16
60. Oops...brain fade. I meant to say 700 thousand.
I believe it was nearly 350 thousand on each side.
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slick8790 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #10
23. Uh huh....700 million. You sure? We only have 300 million today. Still recovering, eh? n/t
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leaninglib Donating Member (268 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #23
61. Actually, the egg nog hadn't kicked in... :) 700,000
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phillyliberal Donating Member (123 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
21. haha
wouldn't they just be able to buy more slaves with the money they received from the north? :wtf:
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #21
35. Importation of slaves was cut off in 1820 (?), as specified in the Constitution.
(date from memory... if it's 1815 or 1825, sorry)

That rule was flouted, but it was the rule. No importation. Slaves were incredibly expensive by 1960.

(Of course, after the 1820s slave ships would have to tangle with the British navy anyway, so the market would have been plenty disrupted even without the Constitutional injunction.)
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #35
70. I'd say they were expensive by 1960! Hardly able to find a decent one by then!...
Edited on Tue Dec-25-07 02:14 PM by TankLV
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #35
89. Slaveholders were against the African slave trade
by 1860 because it reduced the value of their expensive property.

Just like any other commodity, if you have some, you sure don't want the supply to glut and lower prices.
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #21
41. And what if they didn't want to sell?
And, in Ron Paul's mind, the government would have no RIGHT to spend the people's money for such a charitable endeavor.

Ron Paul and his supporters are racist nutbags.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. I'm not prepared to call Paul a racist for that thing in particular.
Lincoln was open to buying all the slaves. It's not intrinsically monstrous.

You are, however, correct that Paul would doubtless have objected to such a vast exercise of eminent domain.
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #44
51. No, not that one thing
there are plenty of things that show Paul to be a racist. This is consistent with all the other information.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #51
58. Agreed.
And you know... Ron Paul is from Texas. So fuck 'em.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #44
90. As late as 1865, Lincoln offered
the deal to the Confederate Vice-President at the Hamptom Roads Conference (Jan-Feb 1865? -- can't remember exactly) which he attended personally.

The deal was that if the Confederacy lowered their weapons by 4-1-65, then the government would compensate slaveowners for their freed slaves.

Confederate President Davis rejected the deal saying the issue was independance, not slavery. He should have taken the deal because by April 1, 1865, the CSA was about to collapse as Lee had to give up Richmond.
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Historic NY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
22. Why do people insist the Civil War was because of Slavery,
its was because of "States Rights", the right to secede from the Union. The hotbed of secession South Carolina Confederate artillery attacked Union forces at Ft. Sumter on April 12, 1861. Granted there were many issues but slavery was further down the list.

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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. I have to disagree.
"States rights", at least in the south, has always been about one thing -- the "right" to treat minorities however the SOBs in charge want.

I've heard the argument before that slavery was not the main reason for the Civil War. But, usually that argument is advanced by those who can't put the blame where it belongs -- on the founding fathers -- who were supposed to be for freedom, Christianity, and all that -- but choose to allow slavery in the Constitution (notwithstanding all the freedom, liberty, and such BS). The fact is, the South would not have gone to war for any other reason but that the "feds" were about to screw their Plantation system.

One of the announcers on Air America put it humorously a few years back responding to the "states rights" argument -- "We poor farmers have to go fight for the confederacy, Mr. Beaureguard ain't gonna pick his own cotton."
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #25
91. There were certainly other issues besides slavery
Tariffs was a major one.

Since the south imported the most from Europe they felt like they paid an unfair amount of tariffs while the governments development programs with the money were almost all in the north.

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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. Please see post #15.
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. slavery is the easy one word answer
but, like most things, it was far more nuanced than just that. prior to the secession, the CSA and the Union were already 2 separate countries; the north had plowed ahead and embraced the Industrial Revolution. they had railroads, canals, and manufacturing that was almost nonexistent in the south. the south was stuck in a bygone era; they were a plantation society and wanted to keep it that way, and feared the end of their way of life. the only thing they felt would protect their way of life was to secede to protect their "states' rights."

the war was to preserve the union above all else. there were many in the north opposed to slavery, but most weren't for moral reasons, but rather economic; why should we have to pay immigrants low wages while they get to have slave labor.

that's my condensed version.
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Historic NY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #28
57. People forget the earlier laws and Federals Acts which
Edited on Tue Dec-25-07 01:29 AM by Historic NY
protected slavery in both the north and the south. Starting in 1793 the fugitive slave act was passed as part of the Constitution which guarantee the return of runaway slaves any where in the US. In the north it was usually ignored and slaves were not returned as required by the law. A change made the US Marshals liable for a heavy fine if they did not enforce the act. The election of Millard Filmore from N.Y. brought about new laws that favored the slave owner and his property rights and the balance of slavery in the new states and territory of the US. It also brought about a new Fugitive Slave Law that required all U.S. citizens to assist in the return of runaway slaves regardless of the legality of slavery in the specific states. The compromise (Compromise of 1850) delayed the Civil War for some 10yrs and was widely popular as it balanced slavery in the free and slave states and controlled its spread. While slavery was unpopular with many in the north they looked to contain it as much as possible. The 10yrs delay in the war also allowed for the north industrial might to far outgrow the souths cash crop, slave supported economy. The Kansas-Nebraska Act of 1854 was against the spread of slavery in these new territories it sought to give the settlers, rather than the government the right to decide the slave issue. Many people thought this was a concession to slavery and the south. Later outbreaks of violence in the territory led to the rise of the war clouds which formed over the states rights issues. The act also led to the formation of the Republican Party which was against slavery. So one can argue whether it was slavery or the states right to have slaves contributed to the April 12, 1861 attack on Ft. Sumter.

In NY state acts were passed in Feb & March of 1799 that called for the Gradual Emancipation Law to abolish slavery. I checked my towns census records and found there were still 94 slaves listed as of 1820. I even found a few manumissions that went beyond 1820. It is generally accepted that slavery ended in NY State by 1827 according to law.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #57
80. popular sovereignty
"The Kansas-Nebraska Act of 1854 was against the spread of slavery in these new territories it sought to give the settlers, rather than the government the right to decide the slave issue. Many people thought this was a concession to slavery and the south. Later outbreaks of violence in the territory led to the rise of the war clouds which formed over the states rights issues. The act also led to the formation of the Republican Party which was against slavery. So one can argue whether it was slavery or the states right to have slaves contributed to the April 12, 1861 attack on Ft. Sumter."

It is disingenuous and misleading on your part to present one partisan side in the great debate of the 1850's as though it were historical fact. You are presenting the "Popular Sovereignty" argument of Senator Stephen Douglas.

You are free, of course, to take the same positions as Stephen Douglas on the issue of slavery expansion, and to express sentiments sympathetic to the slave power and in opposition to the Republican party and the Abolitionists, but you should acknowledge that this is what you are doing.

Not for the sake of arguing with you, but rather for the sake of those who may visit this thread who are not familiar with the political climate of the time and the arguments people were making, and also out of respect for and to honor the millions who faced such great hardship and made such terrible sacrifices, primarily the slaves themselves, I will continue to post on this thread.

It is only fair that people are able to read the counter-arguments to the ones you presented from those times, and I will not try to pawn those off as a factual historical narrative but rather trust that informed readers will be more than capable of making their own judgments and reach their own conclusions without the need to be steered or misled.

As a side note, the right wingers like to claim that history is dead and to deny that it has any bearing on the current political battles. This thread proves that nothing could be farther from the truth.

I will post the anti-slavery arguments from the time shortly to counter-balance your arguments.


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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #57
83. Lincoln on the subject
Stephen Douglas argued that states, or territories, should, as a matter of self-government or "popular sovereignty" have the right to property in the form of slaves, if the people so chose.

Here is Lincoln's counter-argument to that:

Speech on the Kansas-Nebraska Act
Abraham Lincoln
October 16, 1854
excerpts

But it is said, there now is no law in Nebraska on the subject of slavery; and that, in such case, taking a slave there, operates his freedom. That is good book-law; but is not the rule of actual practice. Wherever slavery is, it has been first introduced without law. The oldest laws we find concerning it, are not laws introducing it; but regulating it, as an already existing thing. A white man takes his slave to Nebraska now; who will inform the Negro that he is free? Who will take him before court to test the question of his freedom? In ignorance of his legal emancipation, he is kept chopping, splitting and plowing. Others are brought, and move on in the same track. At last, if ever the time for voting comes, on the question of slavery, the institution already in fact exists in the country, and cannot well be removed. The facts of its presence, and the difficulty of its removal will carry the vote in its favor. Keep it out until a vote is taken, and a vote in favor of it, can not be got in any population of forty thousand, on earth, who have been drawn together by the ordinary motives of emigration and settlement. To get slaves into the country simultaneously with the whites, in the incipient stages of settlement, is the precise stake played for, and won in this Nebraska measure.

The question is asked us, “If slaves will go in, notwithstanding the general principle of law liberates them, why would they not equally go in against positive statute law?--going, even if the Missouri restriction were maintained?” I answer, because it takes a much bolder man to venture in, with his property, in the latter case, than in the former--because the positive congressional enactment is known to, and respected by all, or nearly all; whereas the negative principle that no law is free law, is not much known except among lawyers. We have some experience of this practical difference. In spite of the Ordinance of `87, a few Negroes were brought into Illinois, and held in a state of quasi slavery; not enough, however to carry a vote of the people in favor of the institution when they came to form a constitution. But in the adjoining Missouri country, where there was no ordinance of `87--was no restriction--they were carried ten times, nay a hundred times, as fast, and actually made a slave State. This is fact--naked fact.

Another lullaby argument is, that taking slaves to new countries does not increase their number-alms not make any one slave who otherwise would be free. There is some truth in this, and I am glad of it, but it not WHOLLY true. The African slave trade is not yet effectually suppressed; and if we make a reasonable deduction for the white people amongst us, who are foreigners, and the descendants of foreigners, arriving here since 1808, we shall find the increase of the black population out-running that of the white, to an extent unaccountable, except by supposing that some of them too, have been coming from Africa. If this be so, the opening of new countries to the institution, increases the demand for, and augments the price of slaves, and so does, in fact, make slaves of freemen by causing them to be brought from Africa, and sold into bondage.

But, however this may be, we know the opening of new countries to slavery, tends to the perpetuation of the institution, and so does keep men in slavery who otherwise would be free. This result we do not feel like favoring, and we are under no legal obligation to suppress our feelings in this respect.

Equal justice to the south, it is said, requires us to consent to the extending of slavery to new countries. That is to say, inasmuch as you do not object to my taking my hog to Nebraska, therefore I must not object to you taking your slave. Now, I admit this is perfectly logical, if there is no difference between hogs and Negroes. But while you thus require me to deny the humanity of the Negro, I wish to ask whether you of the south yourselves, have ever been willing to do as much? It is kindly provided that of all those who come into the world, only a small percentage are natural tyrants. That percentage is no larger in the slave States than in the free. The great majority, south as well as north, have human sympathies, of which they can no more divest themselves than they can of their sensibility to physical pain. These sympathies in the bosoms of the southern people, manifest in many ways, their sense of the wrong of slavery, and their consciousness that, after all, there is humanity in the Negro. If they deny this, let me address them a few plain questions. In 1820 you joined the north, almost unanimously, in declaring the African slave trade piracy, and in annexing to it the punishment of death. Why did you do this? If you did not feel that it was wrong, why did you join in providing that men should be hung for it? The practice was no more than bringing wild Negroes from Africa, to sell to such as would buy them. But you never thought of hanging men for catching and selling wild horses, wild buffaloes or wild bears.

Again, you have amongst you, a sneaking individual, of the class of native tyrants, known as the “Slave-Dealer.” He watches your necessities, and crawls up to buy your slave, at a speculating price. If you cannot help it, you sell to him; but if you can help it, you drive him from your door. You despise him utterly. You do not recognize him as a friend, or even as an honest man. Your children must not play with his; they may rollick freely with the little Negroes, but not with the "slave-dealers" children. If you are obliged to deal with him, you try to get through the job without so much as touching him. It is common with you to join hands with the men you meet; but with the slave dealer you avoid the ceremony-instinctively shrinking from the snaky contact. If he grows rich and retires from business, you still remember him, and still keep up the ban of non-intercourse upon him and his family. Now why is this? You do not so treat the man who deals in corn, cattle or tobacco.

And yet again; there are in the United States and territories, including the District of Columbia, 433,643 free blacks. At $500per head they are worth over two hundred millions of dollars. How comes this vast amount of property to be running about without owners? We do not see free horses or free cattle running at large. How is this? All these free blacks are the descendants of slaves, or have been slaves themselves, and they would be slaves now, but for something which has operated on their white owners, inducing them, at vast pecuniary sacrifices, to liberate them. What is that something? Is there any mistaking it? In all these cases it is your sense of justice, and human sympathy, continually telling you, that the poor Negro has some natural right to himself-that those who deny it, and make mere merchandise of him, deserve kickings, contempt and death.

And now, why will you ask us to deny the humanity of the slave? and estimate him only as the equal of the hog? Why ask us to do what you will not do yourselves? Why ask us to do for nothing, what two hundred million of dollars could not induce you to do?

But one great argument in the support of the repeal of the Missouri Compromise, is still to come. That argument is “the sacred right of self government.” It seems our distinguished Senator has found great difficulty in getting his antagonists, even in the Senate to meet him fairly on this argument-some poet has said

“Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.”

At the hazard of being thought one of the fools of this quotation, I meet that argument--I rush in, I take that bull by the horns.

I trust I understand, and truly estimate the right of self-government. My faith in the proposition that each man should do precisely as he pleases with all which is exclusively his own, lies at the foundation of the sense of justice there is in me. I extend the principles to communities of men, as well as to individuals. I so extend it, because it is politically wise, as well as naturally just: politically wise, in saving us from broils about matters which do not concern us. Here, or at Washington, I would not trouble myself with the oyster laws of Virginia, or the cranberry laws of Indiana.

The doctrine of self government is right--absolutely and eternally right--but it has no just application, as here attempted. Or perhaps I should rather say that whether it has such just application depends upon whether a Negro is or is not a man. If he is not a man, why in that case, he who is a man may, as a matter of self-government, do just as he pleases with him. But if the Negro is a man, is it not to that extent, a total destruction of self-government, to say that he too shall not govern himself? When the white man governs himself, and also governs another man, that is more than self-government--that is despotism. If the Negro is a man, why then my ancient faith teaches me that “all men are created equal;” and that there can be no moral right in connection with one man's making a slave of another.

Judge Douglas frequently, with bitter irony and sarcasm, paraphrases our argument by saying “The white people of Nebraska are good enough to govern themselves, but they are not good enough to govern a few miserable Negroes!!”

Well I doubt not that the people of Nebraska are, and will continue to be as good as the average of people elsewhere. I do not say the contrary. What I do say is, that no man is good enough to govern another man, without the other's consent. I say this is the leading principle--the sheet anchor of American republicanism. Our Declaration of Independence says:

“We hold these truths to be self evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, DERIVING THEIR JUST POWERS FROM THE CONSENT OF THE GOVERNED.”

I have quoted so much at this time merely to show that according to our ancient faith, the just powers of governments are derived from the consent of the governed. Now the relation of masters and slaves is, pro tanto, a total violation of this principle. The master not only governs the slave without his consent; but he governs him by a set of rules altogether different from those which he prescribes for himself. Allow ALL the governed an equal voice in the government, and that, and that only is self-government.

...

This same generation of men, and mostly the same individuals of the generation, who declared this principle-who declared independence--who fought the war of the revolution through--who afterwards made the constitution under which we still live-these same men passed the ordinance of `87, declaring that slavery should never go to the north-west territory. I have no doubt Judge Douglas thinks they were very inconsistent in this. It is a question of discrimination between them and him. But there is not an inch of ground left for his claiming that their opinions--their example--their authority-- are on his side in this controversy.

Again, is not Nebraska, while a territory, a part of us? Do we not own the country? And if we surrender the control of it, do we not surrender the right of self-government? It is part of ourselves. If you say we shall not control it because it is ONLY part, the same is true of every other part; and when all the parts are gone, what has become of the whole? What is then left of us? What use for the general government, when there is nothing left for it govern?

But you say this question should be left to the people of Nebraska, because they are more particularly interested. If this be the rule, you must leave it to each individual to say for himself whether he will have slaves. What better moral right have thirty-one citizens of Nebraska to say, that the thirty-second shall not hold slaves, than the people of the thirty-one State shave to say that slavery shall not go into the thirty-second State at all?

But if it is a sacred right for the people of Nebraska to take and hold slaves there, it is equally their sacred right to buy them where they can buy them cheapest; and that undoubtedly will be on the coast of Africa; provided you will consent to not hang them for going there to buy them. You must remove this restriction too, from the sacred right of self-government. I am aware you say that taking slaves from the States to Nebraska, does not make slaves of freemen; but the African slave-trader can say just as much. He does not catch free Negroes and bring them here. He finds them already slaves in the hands of their black captors, and he honestly buys them at the rate of about a red cotton handkerchief a head. This is very cheap, and it is a great abridgement of the sacred right of self-government to hang men for engaging in this profitable trade!

Another important objection to this application of the right of self-government, is that it enables the first FEW, to deprive the succeeding MANY, of a free exercise of the right of self-government. The first few may get slavery IN, and the subsequent many cannot easily get it OUT. How common is the remark now in the slave States-- “If we were only clear of our slaves, how much better it would be for us.” They are actually deprived of the privilege of governing themselves as they would, by the action of a very few, in the beginning. The same thing was true of the whole nation at the time our constitution was formed.

Whether slavery shall go into Nebraska, or other new territories, is not a matter of exclusive concern to the people who may go there. The whole nation is interested that the best use shall be made of these territories. We want them for the homes of free white people. This they cannot be, to any considerable extent, if slavery shall be planted within them. Slave States are places for poor white people to remove FROM; not to remove TO. New free States are the places for poor people to go to and better their condition. For this use, the nation needs these territories.

Still further; there are constitutional relations between the slave and free States, which are degrading to the latter. We are under legal obligations to catch and return their runaway slaves to them-a sort of dirty, disagreeable job, which I believe, as a general rule the slave-holders will not perform for one another. Then again, in the control of the government the management of the partnership affairs--they have greatly the advantage of us. By the constitution, each State has two Senators--each has a number of Representatives; in proportion to the number of its people-and each has a number of presidential electors, equal to the whole number of its Senators and Representatives together. But in ascertaining the number of the people, for this purpose, five slaves are counted as being equal to three whites. The slaves do not vote; they are only counted and so used, as to swell the influence of the white people's votes. The practical effect of this is more aptly shown by a comparison of the States of South Carolina and Maine. South Carolina has six representatives, and so has Maine; South Carolina has eight presidential electors, and so has Maine. This is precise equality so far; and, of course they are equal in Senators, each having two. Thus in the control of the government, the two States are equals precisely. But how are they in the number of their white people? Maine has 581,813-- while South Carolina has 274,567. Maine has twice as many as South Carolina, and 32,679 over. Thus each white man in South Carolina is more than the double of any man in Maine. This is all because South Carolina, besides her free people, has 384,984 slaves. The South Carolinian has precisely the same advantage over the white man in every other free State, as well as in Maine. He is more than the double of any one of us in this crowd. The same advantage, but not to the same extent, is held by all the citizens of the slave States, over those of the free; and it is an absolute truth, without an exception, that there is no voter in any slave State, but who has more legal power in the government, than any voter in any free State. There is no instance of exact equality; and the disadvantage is against us the whole chapter through. This principle, in the aggregate, gives the slave States, in the present Congress, twenty additional representatives-being seven more than the whole majority by which they passed the Nebraska bill.

Now all this is manifestly unfair; yet I do not mention it to complain of it, in so far as it is already settled. It is in the constitution; and I do not, for that cause, or any other cause, propose to destroy, or alter, or disregard the constitution. I stand to it, fairly, fully, and firmly.

But when I am told I must leave it altogether to OTHER PEOPLE to say whether new partners are to be bred up and brought into the firm, on the same degrading terms against me, I respectfully demur. I insist, that whether I shall be a whole man, or only,the half of one, in comparison with others, is a question in which I am somewhat concerned; and one which no other man can have a sacred right of deciding for me. If I am wrong in this-if it really be a sacred right of self-government, in the man who shall go to Nebraska, to decide whether he will be the EQUAL of me or the DOUBLE of me, then after he shall have exercised that right, and thereby shall have reduced me to a still smaller fraction of a man than I already am, I should like for some gentleman deeply skilled in the mysteries of sacred rights, to provide himself with a microscope, and peep about, and find out, if he can, what has become of my sacred rights! They will surely be too small for detection with the naked eye.

Finally, I insist, that if there is any thing which it is the duty of the whole people to never entrust to any hands but their own, that thing is the preservation and perpetuity, of their own liberties, and institutions. And if they shall think, as I do, that the extension of slavery endangers them, more than any, or all other causes, how recreant to themselves, if they submit the question, and with it, the fate of their country, to a mere hand-full of men, bent only on temporary self-interest. If this question of slavery extension were an insignificant one having no power to do harm--it might be shuffled aside in this way. But being, as it is, the great Behemoth of danger, shall the strong gripe of the nation be loosened upon him, to entrust him to the hands of such feeble keepers?

full text here

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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #57
84. Salmon Chase on the subject
Slavery Extension
The Nebraska Bill In Congress.
Address to the People
Salmon P. Chase
Thursday Jan. 19, 1854.

We appeal to the People. We warn you that the dearest interests of Freedom and the Union are in imminent peril. Servile demagogues may tell you that the Union can be maintained only by submiting to the demands of Slavery. We tell you that the safety of the Union can only be insured by the full recognition of the just claims of Freedom and Man. The Union was formed to establish justice, and secure the blessings of liberty. When it fails to accomplish these ends it will be worthless and when it becomes worthless it can not long endure.

We entreat you to be mindful of that fundamental maxim of Democracy, EQUAL RIGHTS AND JUSTICE for all men. Do not submit to become agents in extending Legalized Oppression and Systematized injustice over a vast Territory yet exempt from these terrible evils.

We implore Christians and Christian Ministers to interpose. Their Divine Religion requires them to behold in every man a brother, and to labor for the Advancement and Regeneration of the Human Race.

Whatever apologies may be offered for the toleration of Slavery in the States, none can be urged for its extension into Territories where it does not exist, and where that extension involves the repeal of ancient law, and the violation of solemn compact. Let all protest earnestly and emphatically, by correspondence, through the press, by memorials, by resolutions of public meetings and legislative bodies, and in whatever other mode may seem expedient against this enormous crime.

For ourselves, we shall resist it by speech and vote, and with all the abilities which God has given us. Even if overcome in the impending struggle, we shall not submit. We shall go home to our constituents, erect anew the standard of Freedom, and call on the People to come to the rescue of the country from the domination of Slavery. We will not despair; for the cause of Human Freedom is the cause of God.

full text
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. This is a myth
Edited on Mon Dec-24-07 10:36 PM by Kurt_and_Hunter
The "many factors" model of the Civil War is a face-saving myth that came into vogue in the 20th century during a great national process of Civil War revisionism... the price of unity.

Slavery really was the only cause of the Civil War. Every other issue anyone cites as a cause was negotiable. Slavery was not. Without slavery, secession would have been averted. With slavery, all the negotiation in the world couldn't have prevented secession.

Thought experiment: If the south had announced in 1860 they were willing to bargain away slavery, what would the north had refused to give up in the exchange that would have started the Civil War? Or, if the north had announced in 1860 they had decided slavery was OK, would the Civil War have occurred anyway, but over tariffs or something?

The logical fallacy involved is working backward from the fact of war to then include every source of friction between the two parties as a cause of war, even though those other issues were not sufficient to cause the war.

Also, one reason those other issues were allowed to fester was because there was always the non-negotiable issue of slavery looming, which inhibited working effectively on other things. Since no overall solution was possible there wasn't the same urgency to solve the other things, because solving them wouldn't prevent war.



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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #30
92. Why was slavery not negotiable?
IT had been negotiated all through the history of the US.
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Nailzberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #22
33. South Carolina's Secession Declaration makes it perfectly clear it was about slavery.
"No person held to service or labor in one State, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor, but shall be delivered up, on claim of the party to whom such service or labor may be due."

The southern states believed the federal government was violating states' rights by failing to force the northern states to return runaway slaves. That's the only states' rights the civil war was about.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #22
62. Yes, states rights in order to have slaves.
Remember, it was about new states being formed and not being allowed to be slave states. I've also heard it was about "economics" and not slavery. But of course, the south's economy was run on slavery. So you see, there's no way around it really without slavery being the main issue.
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ShaneGR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #22
63. Sort of, except the "State Right" that was most important was slavery
Not to the common man on the street, most people in the south didn't own slaves, but most of the people who owned newspapers, voted, or otherwise had the money to influence public opinion did.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #22
65. That's revisionist history - slavery (and expansion of slavery) was THE ISSUE and eclipsed
Edited on Tue Dec-25-07 07:57 AM by depakid
everything else to the point of near irrelevance.

You can read it clearly and emphatically in the newspapers, periodicals, books, speeches and proceedings and acts of Congress for 40 years up and until succession.





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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #65
93. It was certainly the main issue of the USA for 40-50 years before the war.
Finding a way out of the mess without war was the country's great mission, and we failed misserably.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #22
71. And just what were those "states' rights" they were so willing to fight over?
Edited on Tue Dec-25-07 02:19 PM by TankLV
THE GODDAMN RIGHT TO OWN AND SELL SLAVES!

God, I hate ignorant IDIOTS!!!
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #22
95. Maybe because Slavery was the only issue shared and written...
"Why do people insist the Civil War was because of Slavery"

Maybe because Slavery was the only issue shared and written across the board by each of the seceding state's Articles of Secesion? To justify their treason, each of the seceding states listed many grievances, however slavery was the issue that each shared. :shrug:
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
29. The FREAKS come out at night
And America is in a long, dark one. Between this, Thompson's 'Spanish is sickening' Miss Julie Omerta and dog shit rolling down the car's rear window, what's left to say? :shrug:
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
36. weakness
Some of the same revisionist talking points about the Civil War in defense of Ron Paul were previously posted on another thread, and thoroughly refuted. They were not supported or defended in the other thread by those posting them, yet here they are repeated again. This is a weakness of Internet boards: talking points can be successfully and repeatedly interjected into the discussion without being backed up or defended.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3882544">Previous thread here

Excerpts:

Was the Civil War "about slavery?"

"Couldn't war have been avoided, by say, buying the slaves or something?"

The southern politicians at the time thought the war was about slavery. The slave owners did. The Abolitionists thought that the war was about slavery. The Union soldiers in their letters back home said that they thought the war was about slavery. Lincoln's opponents in the North thought the war was about slavery.

The slaves themselves thought that the war was about slavery, and they staked their lives on that understanding.

All of those people were much closer to and more knowledgeable about this subject, and had much more at stake, than modern observers, including Paul, who wish to revise history for the purpose of promoting a political agenda.

There was nothing that Lincoln worked more diligently on during his presidency than his plan for compensated emancipation, and his main argument was that it would prevent bloodshed. It was the slave state politicians who unanimously and consistently rejected any such idea. Paul betrays a profound ignorance on this subject, or is intentionally dissembling, in making these carefully couched and mealy-mouthed remarks.

The revisionists are right about one thing - Lincoln did not "free the slaves." The slaves freed themselves, at great risk and sacrifice. But that would have been more difficult had it not been for Lincoln's leadership and the presence of tens of thousands of Union troops.

The Civil War was a terrible, almost unimaginable tragedy. But to place the blame for it anywhere but on those who stubbornly went to war to protect their property in the form of enslaved human beings is to dishonor those who gave so much in that struggle, and to trivialize the struggles and suffering of the slaves and their heroic efforts to gain their freedom.

Was Lincoln opposed to slavery?

"Lincoln was not really interested in ending slavery. He was a (tyrant, dictator, monster, illuminatti, friend to the bankers) who ruined the country."

Lincoln did not believe he had the authority under the Constitution as president to end slavery. Containment he did believe he had the authority to do. Lincoln supported and promoted every effort to end slavery, consistent with his view of his duty and authority and consistent with his view as to the best tactical and strategic approach. He slapped down premature and unauthorized emancipation proclamations from the field by Generals Fremont and Hunter for reasons of integrity of command and strategic concerns. On the other hand, he supported General Butler's "contraband" declaration, as well as efforts by Grant and others to employ runaway and freed slaves. He often expressed concern for slaves still trapped behind Confederate lines and talked about ways to "bring them in" to freedom.

The differences between the North and the South other than slavery persisted for decades after the war, and those differences had also been successfully resolved previous to the war. I can't imagine anyone initiating a war on any other basis than slavery. Your hypothetical scenario is possible of course, but I think that would be a difficult case to make. Slavery was the main friction point, by far.

Slavery was most assuredly not "but a mere difference" in the view of the people living at that time, nor was it merely one issue among many.

Slavery was not ended as a legal practice by the Emancipation Proclamation, as you state, by the way. Lincoln was anxious to end slavery as a legal practice, and that was accomplished by the passing of an amendment to the Constitution. Lincoln worked extremely hard at getting that passed.

I am not sure that we can say that the "true reasoning behind the Emancipation Proclamation" was to prevent European involvement. Lincoln expressed doubts before it was issued as to its effect on the European governments and expressed that he was pleasantly surprised by its reception. At the time Lincoln claimed his reasoning to be to cripple the resistance of the Confederacy, and that is not contradicted by anything that happened.

Was the South fighting to defend slavery, or for some other noble cause?

"Most Confederate soldiers did not own slaves. Were they really fighting to defend slavery? And weren't there Abolitionists who did not believe in equality? And the North is not so great on this, either."

Racism was used, and is still used, to dupe poor white people in the South. "Rich man's war, poor man's fight" as the Confederate soldiers came to call it. No surprise there.

Of course it is true that some Abolitionists did not see Blacks as equals. You phrase it as though that invalidates the Abolition movement. That is revisionism.

And so what if they did? Politics is about power, not personal likes and dislikes. In don't care if you like me or not, so long as you don't have the power to harm me. If you will fight for my freedom, what do I care what your opinion of me is? And fighting to free people from bondage IS seeing them as equals in the most fundamental way imaginable.

"Lincoln felt it was a morally wrong act, but he didn't see a need for an immediate end to it, just to it's expansion west" is incorrect. People with a skimpy knowledge of the Civil War love to trot out these half truths with great self assurance. Expansion of slavery was where the battle lines were drawn, as Lincoln said "between those who think slavery right and those who think slavery wrong." It is hard to imagine slavery ending any faster than it did on Lincoln's watch.

Doing the right thing is more important than the way a person feels. We should admire people who fought for the freedom of the slaves, because it was the right thing to do, regardless of how they felt.

The argument that wage earners were no better off than slaves was one of the main arguments that slavery apologists used in the 1850's. Reviving it now is revisionist and inaccurate, as well as in direct opposition to all principles of liberalism and human rights.

Saying that there was and is racism in the North is to state the obvious. Claiming that this supports the idea that the Civil War was not about slavery is nonsense.

This is like being in a time warp. In recent years I suddenly hear people using precisely the same arguments that the pro-slavery people used in the 1850's.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. The period 1900-1940 saw a complete re-write of Civil War history, from the Confederate side
All the history texts were rewritten to make the south look better. Culturally, you went from BIRTH OF A NATION in 1916 to GONE WITH THE WIND in 1939, and between those two dates were the worst race riots in American history, the resurrection of the Klan, and the peak of lynchings. And black people's rights and status in the south declined every year.


The price of unity is often somebody getting thrown under the bus. Black people, in this instance.
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denem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #36
76. Two Americas - I deeply appreciate your posts..
Your elegant knowledgeable writing is a real asset to DU. Thank you.
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Perry Logan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 07:35 AM
Response to Original message
64. The South were willing to kill their fellow Americans so they could keep their slaves. Grotesque.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
77. Typical conservative neurological constipation. n/t
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
82. Von Mises crap
Right in line with Rockwell who admired slavery as a practical economic form. No surprise it was posted there.

Adding this to to Ron Paul's views on blacks taken directly from the American Renaissance magazine and his refusal to distance himself from Neo-Nazi and Christian Identity movements, makes it very clear Ron Paul is a symbolic racist. No amount of proclaiming "I'm not racist, I have friends who are ..." can mask his own actions.


L-
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
94. This sounds like a job for Colonel Angus
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