Hmmmm....Maybe you Kunich supporters are on to something

[Armstead]

I was pleasanbtly surprised by DK's showing in Hawaii. Imagine if Hawaii had been the first caucus state, it would have forced the media and the Democrat Establishment to take his candidacy more seriously. (or even at least acknowledge his existance.) The whole tone of the primaries might have been different.

I'll fess up that I promoted Kucinich as a progressive Democratic leader here (and to my real world friends) before he entered the presidential race. I even defended him in DU flame fests against the early slings and arrows over his pro-life history.

But I also ate a big Weenieburger when it came to his presidential bid. I went for the "who's electable" compromise route and saw Dean as the next-best thing to a clear progressive like DK. I also have had the "vegan with funny ears" opinion that he is personally too exotic for mainstream voters.

I believed basically that DK should have remained focused on his role as a progressive Congressional leader.

My basic view on DK's prospects for Prez haven't changed. But I am coming around on the importance of his campaign, and how if the cards fall right he still may have a major impact on the shape of this year's Big Event.

If he can break through that image of a lonely "vanity candidate" that the media and the Democrat Insiders perpetuate, he could help to reshape the message this year into a more honestly progressive populist one. The key is whether he can do well enough in remaining primaries to harvest some delegates, and be in a position where the media Slime have to mention him while giving results, and Democrat pundits can't get away with that knowing smirk when his name comes up.

Kucinich, and the "Nader factor" might just make the poo bahs and Kerrynervous enough to realize that he can't just get away with lip service.

Anyway, Kudos to you Kucinich folks. I don;t see you as tilting at windmills any more.

[morgan2]

1. dun, dun, dun.. another one sees the light

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

2. Dems can choose - Kucinich or Nader

I think Democrats better start kissing Kucinich's ass, give him a nice speaking spot at the convention, and take him seriously as a leader. Because if you don't, Nader will start saying the same things as Dennis does, but outside of the party.

Democrats can't win without the 3% of lefties. Add in a whole bunch of pissed of Dean supporters and Kerry & Co. better start puckering up.

[IrateCitizen]

3. I see it in a totally different perspective

Paying attention to Dennis's ideas isn't "kissing his ass" -- its recognizing the fact that a progressive Democrat who wins in a district with a great number of "Reagan Democrats" might just be on to something. And that by recognizing that, they might just improve their chances of winning by proving that they're willing to stand up for the great mass of Americans who feel disenfranchised and alienated by the establishment.

I'm not one to start making "ultimatums" this way or that. However, I will be supremely disappointed in the Democratic Party if they do NOT give Dennis a prime speaking spot, because his ideas not only deserve a much wider airing -- they NEED a much wider airing, for the long-term future of the party.

[Armstead]

21. Well, speaking for myself, i'd be happy if...

they started kissing some ass. They've been doing it to the corporate interests and the conservatuves for so long, it'd be a refreshing change if they puckered up to progressives.

[redqueen]

22. I wouldn't nold my breath.

All evidence available shows the frontrunners and party machine still firmly invested in kissing corporate and conservative ass.

[IrateCitizen]

23. Ass-kissing doesn't concern me. Progress does.

If the progress comes about due to ass-kissing, then I'm all for it. But it's a waste of time to insist on ass-kissing just for the sake of ass-kissing.

[Armstead]

27. Progress usually does grow out of ass-kissing

It's the nature of politics.

But in a more serious vein, progressives need as many "bargaining chips" as possible. The more of them the better, if it forces the centrist types to open up platforms and agendas more.

[Fovea]

4. There was a big misperception

that Kooch was a vanity candidate. And given the coverage from the media, no one can be blamed for that misperception.

But through it all, Dennis has stuck with the progressive message, and I am not sure that there has been any time in the 20th and 21st Centuries were that message has been more critically needed.

Thanks for your kudos, though. And I expect Dennis to be in the race all the way to the convention. And if my suspicions are correct, that may make an important difference for the race in the fall.

[Armstead]

7. For the record...

I never saw DK as a vanity candidate, and I know what he is doing, and how he represents many people. I was just referring to the perception sent out by the media and the Democratic Hucksters.

[Fovea]

10. That's cool

I am not woofing at you.

Most folks are not to the level of involvement as us evil DU'ers.

I still appreciate your comments.

[diamondsoul]

5. We've never been tilting at windmills.

:toast:

I'm glad you can see the positive purpose in all this effort. Everyone seems to forget fully half the American Electorate DOES NOT VOTE! People, if ever there was a political statement in non-action, that's THE message! Nobody hears us, we don't count, so why bother?

Well we DO matter and we DO count and we SHOULD bother! That's the Kucinich message. Get out there and tell people there is a candidate who speaaaks for them. Tell people there's this guy who wants healthcare to be a right of the people! He thinks education ought to be for everyone and not just the well-to-do! This guy has the attitude that if the basic life-needs of the people are met this country and the world can be a better place for us all!

Electability my rear, THIS is the message the disenfranchised are desperate to hear. So go tell them!

[Kanary]

14. I *HAVE* been "telling 'em"

... and I'm a wreck today, because I stayed up most of last night, talking with a Republican, who voted for Bush and feels betrayed.

To make a long story short, she is now very excited about Dennis, took home my "Prayer for America" book, and was excited about reading it.

She had decided she wasn't going to vote, but now..... she's considering changing her registration to Dem so she can vote for Dennis.

Yeah, just one vote..... but they keep adding up.

Aloha, Kucitizens!

Kanary

[redqueen]

17. Another disillusioned republican for Kucinich!

Thanks, Kanary.

Just more evidence that Kucinich would win in a landslide.

:yourock:

[Armstead]

20. Maybe it's the best way to attract disillusioned Republicans

It's possible that moderate Republicans and independent "swing voters" are more frustrated about the remoteness and scale of institutions than they are about just the government.

I think that's how the GOP succeeded, was in channeling that frustration against "Big Government" while taking attention away from the abuses of Big Business.

If they could be made to realize that huge corporate interests and the intertwining of corporate power with the government is the real problem, the message of progressive populists like DK could win them over.

[RichM]

6. There's a good discussion of the voting-tactics question, on DU's home

page at the top, by Bernard Weiner. He favors DK on principle, & intends to vote for him in Calif next week - unless Edwards gets close to Kerry in the polls, in which case he'd cast a tactical vote for Edwards, on grounds that JE is somewhat more progressive & has less baggage than JK.

[CWebster]

8. nah

If Hawaii had been first and Dennis did well, they would've crucified him.

On edit: take it from a Dean supporter.

[Armstead]

11. Or they have have been too blindsided to react

Dean's problem was that he peaked too soon -- when the Demotutes and Presstitutes still had time to do their work of demoniuzing him. And so, when their self-fulfilling prophesy came true and Dean did so bad in Iowa and NH, they could pound the final nails in by saying "See? We told you so."

But since they never took Kucinich seriously, a second place finish would have caught them off guard with actual proof that there are actually others who support him and his message. Even if they tried to Deanize him, DK would have had his own self-generated momentum with proven results. It would have -- at the very least -- knocked the purveyors of "conventional wisdom" for a loop for a while.

[Desertrose]

9. thanks armstead...one by one...

people are realizing DK is still here and is not going away ...and...hey...he is saying something they want to hear...and if they see how he is just steady & strong & doesn't waver....then...maybe...they will start to believe that .......maybe...it is possible...MAYBE...THIS IS A CANDIDATE WORTH VOTING FOR....just maybe.... :)


fear ends --------->>> HOPE BEGINS!!

GO DK!

Peace
DR

[GreenPartyVoter]

12. Yeah, if only Hawaii had bee first.. BUT

I am not sure how many of Dennis' votes at this time came from Deaniacs who transferred???

Still, I like to think most of them were folks who picked Dennis first and foremost. :)

[redqueen]

13. We know we are

Thanks for noticing.

:hi:

[tobys]

15. Yes, yes, you are absolutely correct

!

[RichM]

16. As DK says, he'll be the ONLY guy at Boston that opposed the war.

He has predicted that the importance of this fact is going to become increasingly clear to larger & larger numbers of people. I'm not sure that this will happen, but think the point should be considered seriously.

I believe there's a great deal of discomfort -- reflected here on DU & in the Bernard Weiner article on DU's home page, as well -- with the recognition that the 2 Dem "major" candidates both voted for IWR, PATRIOT Act, & NCLB. The bandwaggoning behind Kerry is not enthusiastic; it has an air of discontent & resignation. Keeping this in mind, I'm not sure DK is right in his prediction, but I'm not sure he's wrong, either.

The more one looks at him, the better he looks. He makes sense. He speaks to the self-interest of the bottom 95% of the population. All he needs is a real chance to be heard. American voters are not a particularly sophisticated lot, but sooner or later they may yet prove capable of recognizing what's in their own interest. And there's room for a sudden burst of wide appreciation for the dignified way Dennis has coped with his underdog status & marginalization. Americans are capable of appreciating the courage of a game underdog, and Dennis has been courageous.

[Armstead]

19. That's a great slogan

"He makes sense. He speaks to the self-interest of the bottom 95% of the population."

That really does sum it up quite nicely. Also sums up the difference between progressive populism and Democratic Corporate Centrism.

Only problem is figuring out how to make that clear and get through to more of the 95 percent.

[redqueen]

24. The DNC and RNC are just as invested in keeping

the 95 percent out as they are third parties.

It seems to be all about keeping the status quo, and ensuring they don't lose any votes (money).

[info being]

30. That's simple....

- Tie it into family values (e.g., if people stop worrying about issues of survivial, they will focus more on raising kids and family issues)

- Describe what people can do if healthcare is a non-issue (retire earlier, take more chances with their careers, take time off from work when they are ill). As for the "socialist healthcare" fear-mongers (if there are any left)...just point out that insurance is also socialist in that the healthy pay for the sick, etc.

- Describe how taxes don't have to be raised, just "re-directed" back to the population. Right now most taxes go to corporate welfare, weapons manufacturing, and military-related expenses...nothing that benefits the average person.

The trick is...all of this takes AIR TIME.

[info being]

29. Which is exactly why the media is shutting him out

They know that his message is too powerful. They know that once he gets heard there's no turning back. Its only a matter of time before "a Kucinich" will be heard loud and clear.

[MuseRider]

18. I am

supremely happy today. I realize what is up in front of us but still, the Hawaii results make me very happy. Your post makes me happier still. This is what I have been counting on all along.

[diamondsoul]

25. Someone else hit me with a new view

at the Kucinich board. I was pretty disappointed by the other results from yesterday's votes, particularly Idaho. Well this person pointed out things are improving- his WORST showing yesterday was 7%. Gang, that's a helluva lot better than 3%!

[MuseRider]

28. Yes it is

and thanks for sharing that diamondsoul. Without press coverage this is the only way to get those not terribly interested to look at the man. This is the result I have been waiting for, if only people hear about it. It only takes a little bit of looking for those who have not been interested because of the status quo to see something entirely different. A few more engaged folks can only spread the word and that is just what is needed. Then we have a chance to grow. It is getting awfully late but still not too late. We are filing today for DK in Kansas.

[eridani]

38. And don't forget the statistical test

One of the board members did a nice correlation for Idaho, demonstrating that Kucinich did best where the turnout was highest.

[goodhue]

26. Thanks

Many of us DK supporters have always thought that we are up to something more than tilting a windmills. Thanks for the acknowledgement. Imagine what could be possible if Kucinich had more positive media exposure.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

31. We knew it all the time, Armstead

As I mentioned in another post months ago, I believe in asking for what you really want instead of what you think the other side might be willing to give you.

The news blackout continues. The Minneapolis Star-Tribune covered an Edwards appearance that attracted 2,000, many of whom were state party officials, and mentioned only Dennis' appearance in front of 100 labor and environmental activists,. Meanwhile, at precisely the same time that Edwards was speaking to his 2,000 in St. Paul, Dennis was speaking to 2,300 in Minneapolis, and went on to speak to 300 at a dinner and 150 at a party that evening. The Mpls paper has not said one word about these later appearances.

Today, the New York Times managed to have a front page article about Democrats courting the labor vote in Ohio. It was all about Kerry and Edwards. Their only mention of Kucinich was a dismissive headline in the Cleveland Plain Dealer.

Then the editorial page had one of those bottom-of-the-page essays about how DK and Al Sharpton ought not to be in the debates.

It's pretty clear to every DK supporter by now that the mainstream news media are determined to marginalize him.

That's why these showings in Hawaii and Washington and Maine and New Mexico and even that 7% in Utah are so sweet.

[Armstead]

32. News blackout

It seems the media are intent on eitehr demonizing a candidate who breaks the mold slightly (Dean) or ignoring those who really break it (DK).

Thus we get stuck with tepid mediocrities who are trained like Pavlov's dogs to avoid making any waves.

However, DK and Dean campaigns are at least beginning to show that the way to generate excitement is to address the issues from a different perspective. I think if they can get through the cotton in the heads of the party establishment, that cycle can be broken. If more Democrats start talking clearly and from a progressive populist perspective, eventually it will be too much for the media to eitehr ignore or demonize.

At least I hope so.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

33. That's why I agree partly with Bernard Weiner's article

on the front page.

If Kucinich keeps getting double digits, especially in the solidly blue states, it will be a signal to the Dem leadership that there is a progressive constituency out there, some of whom have been alienated for a long time but are willing to come back to a party controlled by spiny Democrats.

I disagree with his plan to vote for Edwards strategically, since I don't see enough of a significant difference between Kerry and Edwards to sweat it.

[Armstead]

34. I don't see Edwards narrowing the gap at this point.

All Kerry's really got is that aura of invincibility that has been bestowed on him. And it doesn;t l;ook like there'll be much chance for Edwards to make up the gap.

So my sense is that at this point, message-sending trumps strategy, inless something dramatic happens in the nexe few days.

[dpbrown]

35. Thanks, this makes beating Edwards three times, right?

No windmills around here.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[scarletwoman]

36. Well, YAH!

We Kucinich supporters DO know what we're doing, after all... :D

sw

[Armstead]

37. Okay, okay....I'm suitably chastized.

Sheesh. Can't a poor Weenieeating guy get a break?

[dpbrown]

39. Okay, enough lambasting. Climb on board the DK Express!

Next stop - Minnesota!

All aboooooooooard!

Fear Ends
Hope Begins
Kucinich 2004

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[scarletwoman]

40. *snicker*

Armstead, I'll ALWAYS give you a break -- no matter WHAT you eat!

Thanks for a great thread!

sw
:loveya:

[Kanary]

41. Make it kielbasa, and you get the break! ^_^

Polka or play the accordian, and you get...

Bonus Points!

:toast:

Good post, Armstead! :hi:

Kanary

[Armstead]

42. I actually used to own an accordian

Got it for Christmas. Never could figure out how to play the dang thing.

[Kanary]

43. Vote for Dennis, and get...

free accordian lessons... ~~gigglesnort~~

My Beeeeg Question is....

Is it possible to hula to accordian music?

I suppose not.

:)

Kanary, just being happy and silly tonight, and hoping to hear Armstead on the accordian, during an Kucinich administration....

[Armstead]

45. Tell you what..

I'll play the "air accordian"

[dpbrown]

47. Now that I'd like to see

"Practicing your hugging technique?"

[LWolf]

44. Kucos accepted, and thanks!

:kick:

[dpbrown]

46. I'm Kuco for Kucinich!

LOL...snort.

I'm a little punchy I guess.

DPB

[Kanary]

48. I think it's contagious.... given that I'm practicing hula to accordian

And Armstead is playing air accordian....

"A vote for Kucinich is a vote for Polka"

I think it's time for a nap...

Kanary

[MuseRider]

54. While a music

major in college I played in a Polka Band. It was a blast.

[LWolf]

53. lol

I guess you have to be my age to make that connection!

I am still amazed, because I, too, am cuckoo for Kucinich. :crazy:

And, politically, I've tended to be as cynical and untrusting as they come.

[govegan]

49. tick, tock, tick, tock

Mambrino's helmet in the sand
Three pale jackasses roam the land

Cheney, Rumsfeld and Powell too,
Transfigured by the madman's gaze.

We shall have to watch the flames turn blue
and hope for new and brighter days.

But nothing's delusional about the Kucinich band
Supporters of the truth with integrity will stand.

Struggling for our man's vision to prevail
To those who join, we are hearty & hale.

[scarletwoman]

50. Awesome!

A thousand thank-yous!

But nothing's delusional about the Kucinich band
Supporters of the truth with integrity will stand.

That's totally IT!

sw
:loveya:

p.s. -- and the Lorca in your sig! (*swoon*)

[G_j]

51. dk would trounce Bush in a debate

he would certainly look "presidential"
and people could see what a smirking dim-wit they've been stuck with in contrast.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

52. Damn straight..

Kucinich has such a wealth of knowledge on so many issues that he could discuss almost anything in depth and make sense. GW cannot discuss anything in depth or make sense of anything.

TWL

[Armstead]

55. An ideal debate would be a sit down dual interview

Kucinich is much better in one-on-one interviews where he actually has a chance to explain his ideas. He knows exactly what's going on, and what we need to do to change oit. And his ideas are a lot more mainstream than they are usually portrayed as.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

56. True..

In a moderated regular debate on national 'news', Kucinich would be cut off anytime he tried to explain something in detail. Then Bush would say "I'm from Texas, they hate our freedoms!" and then be declared the winner by all the pundits.

cynical am I? Why yes :P

TWL