Lets get this Straight

[corporatewhore]

I have heard third party voters are a meaningless fringe and also if you dont vote ABB you are enabling bush so which is it

[redqueen]

1. I think it depends on the point the ABBer in question is trying to make

:crazy:

[onehandle]

2. Lets get this Straight

In the future, put the subject of your post in the subject line, so we can ignore it properly.

[Desertrose]

3. third option- dems screw it up for dems

I vote third option

DR

[corporatewhore]

5. bingo i just cant follow their logic sometimes

[StopTheMorans]

8. just like 3rd party voters, voting for an option that can't win

b/c it's not really an option;)

[goodhue]

15. yes

I vote for third option as well.

[StopTheMorans]

16. you can't vote for someone who's not on the ticket

or in the poll;)

[goodhue]

26. well i can choose not to vote

third parties do matter and do not necessarily screw it up for democrats. democrats needlessly screw it up for themselves IMHO.

[wyldwolf]

4. Let's get this straight - after the nominee is chosen...

...we won't have to put up with tripe like this and ones who peddle it.

[redqueen]

6. lmao - and why would that be?

What rule is she breaking?

:crazy:

Some people are really losin it around here.

[wyldwolf]

11. lmao - poster is a third party supporter

... and the post attempts, underhandedly, to lend credibility to third party candidates by ridiculing people's opinions on them.

once the Democratic party officially nominates its candidate for president, then the time for fighting is over and the negative attacks against candidates must stop... If you wish to contribute to the defeat of the Democratic candidate for president, then you are welcome to use someone else's bandwidth on some other website. As the election season draws closer, we may expand this rule to include Democratic candidates for other political offices.

Democratic Underground may not be used for political organizing activity by supporters of any political party other than the Democratic party.

[redqueen]

19. lol... underhandedly... lolol

So asking people to declare what they think about third party voters is somehow 'lending credibility' to third party candidates?

:crazy:

[wyldwolf]

24. lol ...yes, underhandedly... lol...

The poster is a third party supporter...trying to use ridicule as a tool to make a point is not only insulting to the ones you're trying to make the point to, but it really makes you look foolish, too.

Like the patronizing "lmao" "lol" and :crazy:

[redqueen]

28. Your claims are so ridiculous -- what did you expect?

So what if I look foolish -- like you care? more LOL!

This is the funniest subthread of the day so far!

:silly:

[wyldwolf]

32. classic Argumentum ad hominem and red herring

What I would expect from the far right - but I've come realize there is very little difference in how the far right and far left argues a point.

[redqueen]

35. Your whole 'point' was that posting a poll about how

ABBers feel about third-party supporters is somehow 'underhandedly' supporting a third party.

And it is still ridiculous.

[wyldwolf]

38. and your series of retorts are argumentum ad hominem and red herrings

... much the way Rush Limbaugh makes his "points."

[redqueen]

41. I posted two questions and two assertions

Care to clue me in on which are the ad hominems and which are the red herrings?

[wyldwolf]

42. I didn't expect you to know the terms...

[redqueen]

48. Fair enough

Care to answer the question, now?

Or would you rather continue displaying your overinflated sense of self-love?

[wyldwolf]

51. no. I've had enough.

On to more meaningful discussions of facts and stats.

[redqueen]

53. Just as I thought

Throwing around 'smart sounding' terms, with no real intent of having a discussion, just trying to impress all your online buddies.

Impressive!

:crazy:

[wyldwolf]

55. an amateur. How cute.

[redqueen]

59. An arrogant, smug, DLCer

how common.

[wyldwolf]

63. better than being an amateur

[Desertrose]

73. can you please, for the love of god...spell *amateur* correctly

if you are gonna be smug & arrogant...use your spell check already!

[wyldwolf]

77. nit picking over spelling is the first sign of intellectual bankruptcy

But I changed it just so you could feel like you've made a point.

[Desertrose]

80. no, its not.

puhleese...just trying to help you not look stupid....

BTW... is there a phrase book you are getting these ridiculous comments from?

[wyldwolf]

81. Believe it or not, some people do know things and don't need a ...

..."phrase book."

I'm one of them.

Thank you.

And nit-picking on spelling is a sign of intellectual bankruptcy.

[redqueen]

84. She has a good point, actually

If one is going to parade around and point out how smart they are, a modicum of concern over details is warranted, no?

[bushclipper]

90. no, it is a bad point...

If someone uses the knowledge they have, they are not required to show people where or how they got the knowledge.

Your criticism sounds like rightwing rhetoric - who hates what they describe as "intellectualism."

Why not research and study before reacting to things?

[Desertrose]

88. But they just sound really hokey....oh, so they're yours?

nit picking.....intellectual bankruptcy??

This is rich...coming from someone who just HAS to get in the last word!

BWA HA HAAAA

you are becoming more amusing with every pathetic comeback, wyldwolf

must get to work....ta taa...I'll let you get in your last word so you feel better

Peace
DR

[bushclipper]

91. Listen to Rush much?

You're sounding like him.

[Desertrose]

97. nope never do...never have...don't plan on it

don't have a cluse how he sounds...How do you know??

Are you the reinforcement...reduced to calling me names?

Rush all the better you can do?
hmmm...

[redqueen]

100. Oh yeah, I never responded -- everyone is an amateur at one time

Not everyone becomes an arrogant, smug centrist.

[bushclipper]

44. wyldwolf, you always find the most illogical people to spar with

It almost gets comedic.

[wyldwolf]

45. It's a curse, I know...

but, still, fun.

[redqueen]

47. Glad you two find it so humorous

Hope it's still funny in November and for the four years following that.

But then again, I suppose you both consider Clinton to be a 'great' president.

Screw those iraqi children, right?

:puke:

[wyldwolf]

49. Yeah, I consider Clinton to be a great president...

But after Bush is defeated this year, it will be time to rejoice.

[redqueen]

52. Just as I thought - screw dead iraqi children

:puke:

I'm going to be so glad to switch to independent.

The DLC makes me ashamed to be a democrat.

[wyldwolf]

58. Who do you hold up as a "great" president?

[redqueen]

62. Do you know how politics works?

None of them are great. FDR was good. Roosevelt was good. But ALL OF THEM are beholden to the rich and powerful.

We get what we elect.

Screw this whole country and all the idiots who think it is anything close to a democracy.

Frauds R Us.

We LOVE getting screwed, right?

[wyldwolf]

65. Yes, I am in politics, so answer my question?

[redqueen]

69. I did.

*sigh*

Why do I even bother?

Just so I can be insulted some more?

:grr:

I start out asking you to clarify why you thought the poster broke rules, and you start insulting me.

I changed my mind. I don't care what questions or statements of mine you think were ad hominems.

I don't give a f$#& what you or any other DLCer thinks.

You, wyldwolf, single-handedly, have ensured that I will not be even trying to stick around here after the choice is tweedle dum or tweedle dee.

As I pointed out to Mr. Magistrate, I would rather be a friend to HUMANITY than to the enablers and apologists of warmongering imperaliasts.

If you fail to recognize the warmongering imperalists for what they are, that is not my concern.

I had thought that by being here I would be able to have meaningful exchanges, but it's becoming painfully clear that after the convention, this board will be dominated by types like you.

By people that put winning ahead of recognizing the true maliciousness and evil of our foreign policy.

Were you one of the people on this board during the lead up to war who argued FOR it, by chance?

[The Magistrate]

74. Mr. Wolf's Opinion On That Matter, Ma'am

Is unknown to me. My own opposition to the endeavor was strenuous and absolute, though perhaps on somewhat different grounds than yours.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[wyldwolf]

76. You did not...

Who do you consider a great president?

And the first insult was thrown by you in post #6

[redqueen]

79. I did so. (This is too much like arguing with a child)

I said there have been NONE. They have ALL been beholden to the powerful.

Read it again, it's still there.

[The Magistrate]

56. President Clinton Was A Great President, Ma'am

He has always had my un-qualified support, and no detractor of his is any friend to the Democratic Party, or to the people of our county.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[redqueen]

64. Your opinion is duly noted, unfriend.

I'd rather be a 'friend' to humanity than apologists for murderous imperialists ANY DAY.

[The Magistrate]

72. That Is A Shame, Ma'am

It rather limits any hope you may have of influencing political life in this country.

You will find that in all countries, the people are far more concerned with the state of their own affairs than those of people in other countries. Any political line that urges them to be primarily concerned with the state of foreigners' affairs, and not their own, will never find much footing among the people of any country. "Internationalism" is one of the most wholly discredited and self-defeating lines indulged in by the far left; it is one of the leading reasons the far left is considered anti-patriot by the overwhelming mass of the people, and no group so regarded will ever enjoy much influence in any democratic polity: most people, Ma'am, love their country, and consider it far and away the best thing on earth.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[redqueen]

78. I love my country

I hate the idiots who elect the manipulative bastards who run it.

And I don't care how unlikely it is that someone with respect for life and a real moral center can influence politics. It's far more important to me to keep my conscience clear.

IMNSHO, once you start trading values for advancement, you're part of the problem.

[The Magistrate]

87. Keeping One's Own Conscience Clear, Ma'am

Has never struck me as particularly high on the scale of even moral values. The touchstone of right action is whether one is willing to undergo danger or difficulty on behalf of others who may not be able to thrive otherwise. Thus, to my view, a person who values their own unblemished sense of moral rectitude above effective action to assist the people is being rather more selfish than otherwise.

To state that you "hate the idiots who elect the manipulative bastards who run" the country is, Ma'am, to state that you hate the people. They are therefore unlikely to respond favorably to any appeal you make to them, or to view you in any wise as their friend.

[redqueen]

93. Nice twisting of words

I don't hate 'the people'. I hate the ones that willfully ignore what they're doing.

There are many that hold their nose as they vote for or apologize for muerderous imperialists.

It is for the kind that do so with no regrets *cough, cough* that I feel the most disgust.

And you can talk all day long about touchstones, the fact of the matter is that this party is moving CLOSER to the MIC, not further away from it.

I have been holding my nose for over a decade and voting with the lesser evil, in the hopes that change would be possible.

I now see clearly it is not.

[The Magistrate]

102. It Is Not A Twisting Of Words, Ma'am

It is the plain meaning conveyed by the statement, for it is the people who elect the officials. Any ordinary voter who heard that statement would surely say, "Hey...she's talking about me!" and would not like you much for the sentiment. It is the frequency of such expressions from the left that accounts in great measure for the poor regard it is held in by the mass of the people of our country, and that cements the left into a posture of impotence and isolation in our country's political life.

You may, Ma'am, choose not to engage the question of whether maintaining one's own sense of purity by doing no questionable action ever oneself, regardless of what consequences might flow to the detriment of others by the inaction, or ineffective action, that results from taking that as the highest moral imperative, but the question is a real one, that needs addressing by persons who refuse action on that ground.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[redqueen]

103. You have a point, I chose my words recklessly

But who can honestly say that most Americans are happy with the state of our government?

Taking my meaning, instead of my wording, I'm sure the vast majority of Americans would be firmly in agreement with me.

The ones that are invested in believing this system is working and so defend each and every politicians' backstabbing lie or betrayal will be insulted. But maybe that's what needs to happen before change is possible. God knows nothing done so far has worked.

And again, I have been doing as you say, and voting with the lesser evil, for too long. I have been advocating for change for too long, with absolutely NO result.

How long do you think one should sacrifice one's own ideals in the hope of change before giving up? How far to the right does this party have to move before you agree that it's hopeless to expect any change for the better?

[Nadienne]

94. And that is why Republicans have so much power

"...the people are far more concerned with the state of their own affairs..."

There are wealthy people who realize that in order to protect their income, for it to sustain itself perpetually, they need to protect the incomes of the middle (and lower) class. Those wealthy people are rare. And in the mean time, we are all blinded by "What about me?"

Will Democrats be able to spell it out for anyone, that what benefits you, benefits me; what benefits them, benefits us...?

(edited to add, "Oh, yeah, and I love my country, but see plenty of room for improvement."

[redqueen]

98. This is what is finally convincing me to leave this party

If they were truly concerned with the good of the people, we'd see them making this argument every chance they had.

Instead they vote with republicans, and then try to scare us into voting for them anyway.

What galls me more than anything is their failure to act on BBV.

What could possibly be more important than that, heading into an election?

Oh yes, I forgot... fundraising.

[The Magistrate]

105. There Is Indeed Great Room For Improvement, Ma'am

We are all of us here united by that conviction.

In describing immutable characteristics of political life, my own views and desires must necessarily be held aside.

In gaining mass assent to improvement, at least without its imposition by violence, you must blend the ideas that the thing proposed restores a former perfection, and that the thing opposed is a temporary blemish inflicted by persons who seek to injure the country.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Desertrose]

9. maybe...maybe not....

those who may have to suck it up and vote for the corporate dem may not be too thrilled to have to listen to the happy crowing of the "winners'...of course in another year we'll all be back to square one wondering where did we go wrong and how could pres Kerry (or Edwards) sell us out.


So, oh yeah....we'll have no more tripe of free speech on this board!

DR

[wyldwolf]

14. "free speech" doesn't apply here..

As much as I am a proponant of the first amendment, it only applies to Congress making laws prohibiting it.

[Desertrose]

25. you are kidding...right?

:eyes:

[wyldwolf]

29. Bill Of Rights, Amendment I

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Congress cannot abridge the freedom of speech, however, owners of private property can.

DU is private property. The board's entire set of rules "limits free speech." But they can, because it doesn't violate the 1st Amendment.

So, no, I'm not kidding :eyes:

Would you like to go a round or two with me on First Amendment law?

[Desertrose]

31. No I don't particularly want to go around with you at all...

I just never realized you were in charge of DU...and I didn't realize you spoke for the admins here .

how silly on my part...you get to speak any way you choose about Kerry or ABBers or third parties and yet when another of us choosees to speak their mind- we are told about how you - as the mouthpiece for DU -get to tell me I can't because it is privately owned and first amendment doesn't apply.

Well now isn't that special?

go figure...
DR

[wyldwolf]

33. I don't make the rules

I just quote them.

Yep, after the nominee is chosen, I get to "speak any way I choose about third parties" but you won't have the right to speak anyway you choose about the nominee.

Whine to the board owners if you wish, but the rules are the rules.

[redqueen]

36. Yeah!

And we can't post polls about third party supporters, either!

Unless we're calling them traitors!

Or if we say they're complicit in bush's war - which they are, those damn dirty commies!

Unlike our hero dems who voted for it! They had good reasons for voting with republicans!

Yeah!

[wyldwolf]

40. the rules are the rules...

...plenty of internet properties where, after the nominee is chosen, you will be able to do what you want.

You just won't be able to do it here, provided the rules are enforced.

[redqueen]

54. And good riddance to you as well

And to this useless excuse for a party.

[wyldwolf]

60. don't let the door hit you on the way out

[redqueen]

67. Don't let the repubs eat your lunch while you're busy acting like them.

[wyldwolf]

68. your reactionary replies and techniques are more indicative of...

republican behavior.

[redqueen]

70. I know you are but what am I?

:crazy:

[wyldwolf]

83. more reactionary replies

[redqueen]

85. Did you really not pick up on the fact that

I was paraphrasing you?

The rolling eyes emoticon is really nowhere near enough.

"Screw those dead iraqi kids, I love bill clinton!"

[wyldwolf]

95. yet another reactionary reply

[IrateCitizen]

12. ON WITH THE PURGE! PARTY PURITY WILL BLOOM!

:eyes:

[BL_Zebub]

23. Sieg Heil! DLC Uber Alles!!

[MadHound]

18. And I'm sure you're breathing a sigh of relief about that

God forbid you have to answer those pesky, disconcerting, soul searching questions from third party supporters. Better to just shut up and walk in lockstep eh? Free speech? We don't need no stinking free speech! We're ABBers

[wyldwolf]

21. Your main point is correct. It will be a relief ...

..not to have to deal with those who would use DU as a "platform to attack and tear down the only progressive on the planet with any hope of defeating George W. Bush."

I've heard and answered all the "soul searching questions from third party supporters" over and over. It all really amounts to sour grapes because you couldn't get your man the job.

And free speech doesn't apply here.

[Desertrose]

30. "And free speech doesn't apply here." what exactly do you mean by this?

You keep saying it & I thought you were kidding...aren't you??

Do you really mean we cannot have free speech here on DU ...now??
...or after the almighty DLC/DNC candidate is crowned?

:wtf:

DR

[redqueen]

34. They are not kidding.

Sad, isn't it?

We can be called traitors and worse, but we can't even hint at anything at all that might possibly be in the slightest way construed as support for a third party.

Of course, that's supposed to be after the primaries are over, but what the hey? Why not practice those awesome brownshirt moves now?

[wyldwolf]

37. You've never had free speech at DU

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Congress cannot abridge the freedom of speech, however, owners of private property can.

DU is private property. The board's entire set of rules "limits free speech." But they can, because it doesn't violate the 1st Amendment.

You've never had free speech here. You've never been allowed to post racist, sexist, homophobic, ethnic, anti-religious, or anti-atheist bigotry. You can't post personal attacks or engage in name-calling.

After the nominee is chosen, you're "right" to attack the nominee will be limited.

Those are the rules.



For a while in this forum, the rules were much stricter.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wyldwolf]

86. wow! such a personal attack!

[Desertrose]

92. ya think? then you'll just have to alert me, honey....

I am just observing...you see it as an attack then I guess you are owning it,

:shrug:

Peace
DR

[RichM]

43. Note the uncanny resemblance between this post & Bush's accusation

that those who don't come to heel are "not good Americans." The language itself drips with rightwing venom. The poster displays without apparent irony a "sig" for the DLC. Overall, it's only about a half-step from being an overt threat to anyone daring to challenge the party line. :puke:

[Forkboy]

104. Wyldwolf,why do you get this straight?

I would also like to point out that despite the widespread and rampant rumors to the contrary, "criticism" of the nominee is not outlawed. We are not going to be banning people who speak badly about the nominee. We are forbidding partisan attacks and organizing against the nominee, and hopefully we won't have to ban anyone to enforce that, but who knows... but let's try and not make the rules out to be something they're not, they even state:

"Constructive criticism and even outright disappointment with the candidate may be expressed, but partisan negative attacks will not be welcome."

Elad

This post breaks no rule nomatter how much you may wish.

[bowens43]

7. Not enough options.....

BTW, third party is ABB. The only thing that isn't ABB is voting for bush.

[redqueen]

10. Did you miss the orwellian slant DU has taken on?

Sure, ABB stands for 'anybody' but bush, but it does not really mean that. ABB now means the democratic nominee ONLY.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

13. No "orwellian slant"

ABB started here as a way to say "I'm going to support any of OUR candidates against Bush." Once we've nominated our candidate, the ABBers will likely all turn into either Kerry or Edwards supporters. That was always the true intent... I, for example, supported Gephardt but was always ABB. Looks like Kerry's going to get the nod, so now I'm a Kerry supporter. He's not my guy per se, but he's good enough for me. That's ABB in a nutshell.

[Desertrose]

22. ABB is overblown fearmongering

Stand back & watch em jump on this post!

I intensely dislike * as much as anyone...but runnnig around all fearful and glomming onto any candidate you think can defeat him is a sure sign of losing that fight.

You beat * by picking THE BEST CANDIDATE for the people...screw the electable meme and all that. We-DEMS- can win only by offering a good candidate and not an insider sellout to the monied interests.

You don't like my opinion...fine...I'm not too crazy for you or anyone else telling me I have to support who the dems pick. You offer me somone worth voting for and then you get my vote...same goes for the other friggin huge percentage of people who do not currently vote because with the exception of Kucinich who the media has more than ignored, there is no one worth voting FOR!

This whoel world is actually beyond Orwellian IMHO

Peace
DR

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

66. ...

First of all, your post is unnecessarily truculent. I didn't come here or post looking for a fight.

Secondly, I didn't tell you that you had to vote for anyone. I just told you what ABB is. If you don't like the concept of ABB, don't ascribe to it.

Thirdly, I am not advocating running around fearful, I'm advocating supporting your own candidate in the primary, and if they should fail, making sure you jump on board with whomever your peers in the Democratic party believe the best candidate is through their votes. That is not fearful or "glomming" - that's making sure that fucking asshole Bush doesn't get re-elected.

Finally, I didn't even dislike your opinion per se, but saying implying there's an Orwellian slant to ABB is a factual error based on your apparent misunderstanding of what ABB is. I was correcting your error. (Edit: On second look, I didn't even reply to one of your posts originally, so I have no fucking clue what you're talking about. I wasn't talking to you at all!!)

Listen, if you want to vote for Kucinich and nobody but Kucinich, that's your right. But spare us the self-righteousness, okay?

[wyldwolf]

17. ABB has always stood for he/she with the best chance at beating Bush

[GreenPartyVoter]

50. Yep. ABB is pragmatism, pure and simple

There is one goal, and that is to get $hrubco out of the White House.

After a Dem is in place, we'll all go back to pushing our regular agendas. Mine happens to be election reform, because I believe we can't get the best policy unless we elect the best people for the job of crafting it. And the system we have right now does not allow for that.

[redqueen]

57. Yes, regular agendas

Like further concentrating the media stranglehold on discourse

Like further eroding the freedoms we hold dear (free speech zones started under CLINTON!)

Like further disenfranchising the poor

Whoop de freakin do.

[rucky]

20. Ignoring people out loud

is not ignoring. It's a strategy to diffuse a real threat.

Same could be said over gay marriage. If it wasn't a real issue then why have over 3000 couples gotten married in the past two weeks?

I'm not saying it's a bad strategy, I'm just saying that the Dems may be facing too many things that won't be resolved by the GE. So maybe ignoring/diffusing is the only way to handle it right now.

[DuctapeFatwa]

27. 3rd party voters are against US policy, ergo, not with America

The Patriot Act will take care of these terrorists.

[Armand]

39. Third party votes are meaningless.

Sure, everyone has the right to vote for the beliefs in his/her heart, but if you look at the big picture, third party votes make up almost nothing of the total votes. Since most people don't vote third party, what's the point of voting for them? Why not vote for the lesser of the two evils?

True...voting for the lesser of the two evils is still voting for evil...but, if you look at it this way, you'd understand: Bush is the (P)resident. Bush has screwed up this country in many imaginable ways. Bush needs to go away. Bush has a Democrat running against him. Democrat needs to win office to fix what Bush has screwed up. Voting for third party takes vote away from Democrat.

What's more important for this year: Voting for your heart if you believe in third-party values...or voting for a Democrat to get rid of Bush? You decide.

[GreenPartyVoter]

46. Huh, I both don't matter and screw things up for Dems. I feel

so wanted. *sniff sniff*

Can't wait to get that election reform. *sigh*

[West Coast Democrat]

61. Sort of Both

[buddhamama]

75. both

there are enough third party voters to swing an election to the opposition party re:repub, but not enough to get consideration from the DEM Party Elite.

[redqueen]

82. Wow, a reasonable answer

Shocking, it's not from the usual 'anyone who doesn't get in line is an idiot' crowd.

[buddhamama]

89. why, thank you,redqueen

i may be leftist,
but i am a reasonable letfist-
for the most part anyway :-)

[redqueen]

I wish I could stay reasaonble

But seeing this party move ever rightward (and with the enthusiastic support of far too many) is more than this leftist can take.

:(

[Desertrose]

99. amen sister!!

:hug:
DR

[redqueen]

101. Thanks, DR

Peace

[redqueen]

96. I wish I could stay reasaonble

But seeing this party move ever rightward (and with the enthusiastic support of far too many) is more than this leftist can take.

:(

[Ficus]

106. third party

it depends on which one you are talking about. There are 3rd Parties all across the political spectrum.

this poll seems to be a little silly

[BigMcLargehuge]

107. locked

This is getting way out of hand.

Big McLargehuge
DU Moderator