John Edwards won the debate this morning. Anyone wanna...

[tryanhas]

...see it again?

Here's the link:

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/partners/nyt/webcast.html

[Jim Sagle]

1. Horseshit.

[cbua34]

2. I thought Edwards won as well

...and Kucinich had his best performance thus far, in all honesty

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Skwmom]

16. That pretty well says it all. e/o/m

[RichM]

3. Bullshit.

He's a very charming guy, much the same as Kerry but with nicer style & packaging. In terms of content, truth & substance, he was 3rd best in a field of 4, today. He's the better of the two Establishment candidates.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RichM]

24. This post bears an eerie resemblence to #5.

[PurityOfEssence]

11. So, of the only two who have a chance, he's the best?

I know what you're saying, Rich, but let's talk a minute about reality. People can only take so much, and will only allow themselves so much disruption. Neither Kucinich nor Sharpton can be elected largely because they do tell the truth. "The Truth" is an odd commodity for a politician: Mondale told the truth, and so did McGovern. Let's not forget Dukakis.

The hurricane of disruption that would be caused by Kucinich's extreme about face on so many fronts simply will never be willingly tolerated by any voting public unless we're in the throes of absolute insurrection and economic collapse. We're in a mess right now, but it's not that bad. IT HAS TO BE OBVIOUS THAT IT IS THAT BAD.

Yes, this is paternalistic and inherently condescending, but it's essential leadership: people are stubborn, scared, habitual and resistant to change. The tiresome paradigm--that Kucinich's playing into is his greatest personal failing--is that WE can take it over from THEM and a new day will dawn. There's NO chance of that, and there never has been in this form of society; the hand has to be offered, compromises have to be made, and incremental advances are the only way. Even a serious drunk warms up with a snort or two, he doesn't walk in and down a liter of vodka in a breath.

It's hard to hear the words "impractical" or "extreme" too much when the goals are good, but it's human nature. HUMAN NATURE IS A CONSTANT; the greatest reason Communism failed is because it's based on a faulty and dewy-eyed incorrectness: man is not perfectible. (Hell, Communism never even got a chance to be established, precisely because of this trait.)

Edwards works within people's safety and comfort zone. He conserves his ammunition, and then shoots to kill, as opposed to a hotshot like Dean who just blasts away at anything that moves. This is important. It's called finesse, statesmanship, elegance and any number of similar things.

This is not the time to throw down the gauntlet and demand instant Paradise; this is the time to escort the Captain off the bridge and make for a safe port to make repairs. The very idea of instantly abolishing NAFTA is nothing more than cheap theatrics and naivete; anyone who says that he/she can predict all the fallout from that is a lunatic or a megalomaniac, and that fallout will be expressed in HUMAN TERMS: JOBS LOST, DREAMS DEFERRED/DESTROYED, AND MAYHEM APLENTY. These are, after all, precisely the things Kucinich doesn't want.

I will close with a line from that curmudgeon H.L. Mencken: "for ever complex problem, there is a simple solution...which is wrong."

[mac56]

22. Great answer, Purity!

Thank you.

[RichM]

28. Well, yes. In my book, JE before JK. The rest of your post is harder for

me to respond to.

On the one hand, you almost win me with a well-crafted phrase like "This is not the time to throw down the gauntlet and demand instant Paradise; this is the time to escort the Captain off the bridge and make for a safe port to make repairs." Considered abstractly, this sounds eminently reasonable.

OTOH, I think our ship may founder even if we succeed in escorting the Captain from the bridge. I fear it's not enough to simply replace him, if the range of permitted dialog is not broadened enough to encompass far more of the truth than we are hearing.

The "debate" this morning demonstrates many features of a society & political system descending into darkness. The co-chairman of the House Progressive Caucus was hardly allowed to speak. This was not a "communist." This was a progressive Democrat being treated as though he were a "communist," or some sort of subversive. He wasn't calling for armed overthrow of the state. He mainly wanted to talk about what's wrong with waging a war based on fraud, & about single-payer health care. These positions alone are clearly so threatening to today's powerful that they cannot be tolerated.

Almost everything about Iraq that is "unpleasant" got chopped out of the discussion. The whole thing was completely sanitized. The only permitted remarks are about whether or not we need more troops to "be effective" in "rebuilding" Iraq; & whether or not we can get our allies to "help." Everything else is off the table, and if you try to talk about it, you're a commie.

Both Kerry & Edwards are willing to play along with this. Once in an earlier debate, I recall Edwards saying, "I believe Dennis Kucinich should be heard!" He didn't say that today, even though they are friends. I would have been greatly heartened, had either of the Establishment candidates spoken up in defense of DK's & AS's right to be heard, & not to be marginalized.

Neither of the Establishment candidates gives the slightest hint of wanting to remove this filter, this suppressing blanket, that's been laid over the Iraq issue. The future course that they propose in Iraq seems not greatly different to me than what Bush has in mind. It is going to be like Nixon taking over from LBJ in Vietnam - a change in personnel and style, but not that much change in direction.

So I fear that just leading off the crazy Captain & replacing him, without a concomitant fight to broaden the dialog to include at least some of the unpleasant truth -- is not going to suffice to prevent the shipwreck.

[Skwmom]

17. Charming to some, smarmy to others. e.o.m

[citizen snips]

6. Thanks for the link.

[tryanhas]

7. You're welcome

[truizm]

8. He did his normal empthy rhetoric routine

[HuskerDem]

20. Let me guess, he's the sonofamillworker and therz two Americas............

Does that about cover it?

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[retyred]

30. No this time it was different

It was therz two Americas, then there was he's the sonofamillworker!

BTW: Sharpton won!!!!



retyred in fla
“Good-Night Paul, Wherever You Are”
"The "ONLY" true Democrat from the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party"

So I read this book

[Padraig18]

9. I think he tied for 1st.

He and Kucinich both exceeded expectations, so they both won.

[funky_bug]

10. Edwards nailed the last question

with style and finesse. He will be remembered for that poignant response.

Sharpton will be remembered for basically telling that bitch of a moderator to shove it up her arse.

Kucinich will be remembered for some very good answers and his "I'll answer your question directly."

Kerry will be remembered for not taking one bit of shit that was thrown at him.

I don't see a winner here. They all held up quite nicely under that pathetic "this is NY" line of reasoning they called a "debate."

[citizen snips]

12. They did not talk much about the economy.

[Cuban_Liberal]

13. I think they all did well, but Edwards did the best.

No one did poorly; I was even impressed by Kerry's tough, 'take no crap from the moderators' attitude.

Edwards, however, smiled that smile that could melt a stepmother's heart and slipped right in to the 'comfort zone' that America is looking for. I don't think Kerry's 30% lead is going to vanish by Tuesday, but I suspect it's going to get carved way down, just like in WI.

[Auntie Bush]

18. Oh my God....We are going to pick our next president...

the leader of the free world ...because he has a great smile. I guess that's true. Wasn't Bush voted in because he would be more fun to have a drink with than Al Gore. If the Republicans can do it...the Democrats can too. Whooopee! Vote for that Smile.

Just one question...where is that smile going to go when Bush spreads all his lies and shit at him? How will he answer that with a smile?

[democratreformed]

21. The "Elvis" factor - that's what the mods called it

Thought I would fall out of my chair at that one.

[shivaji]

27. Edwards smiles just like my next door neighbor who is a

real-estate seminar salesman. I look for trustworthiness as
number one quality and my first choice was Dean and my 2nd
choice is Kerry. Edwards can go fool some more uneducated
jury pools in North Carolina.

[dogman]

14. If there was a winner it was DK.

In spite of the lame attempts to ignore him as usual, he spoke out for his positions and defined the differences between the Johns and himself. Edwards as usual tried to filibuster and could only have impressed those who love to hear him talk, like himself. He sure can say a lot of words without saying much of substance.

[colonel odis]

15. i thought the debate was tonight. is there one? n/t

[Auntie Bush]

19. No

[MoonRiver]

23. John Edwards is a collosal BORE. I am soooo sick of his mill worker story

:boring:

[union_maid]

25. I like Edwards, but the mill worker story needs a rest

I mean..I'm voting for Kerry but would have no problem getting behind Edwards. Not bashing him. I've never bashed any candidate except Lieberman. But the mill worker thing..I know that repetition is important to getting a message across, but the mill is becoming a subject of mirth even among some who are sympathetic to Edwards and who like the whole working class roots concept. What would be the problem in having a few different ways to get the same point across?

[MoonRiver]

26. YES!!! That's the point!

His real message is being dilluted by this stupid mill worker garbage. I know it's not garbage, but it's going to result in a very big negative for Edwards if he doesn't stop it immediately.

[Leilani]

29. Does anyone know if the debate will be shown on C-Span?

CBS did not carry the debate in Hawaii, & I'd like to catch it.