IndieLeft
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:22 AM
Original message |
Authorizing A War is NOT The Same As Funding It |
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Every time someone says Hillary voted for the IWR and Obama spoke out against it, you get a barrage of comments on how Obama repeatedly voted to fund it.
I find it amazing that rather than come to grips with the fact that Hillary made a huge mistake, you have to change the subject and attack Obama. For the record, Hillary was right along side him voting to fund it the whole way.
What were they supposed to do? I know you all say just cut off the funds, but seriously, with as vindictive as he is, do you really think that would have forced him to bring the troops home?
Hell no! He would have left them over there to fend for themselves, and then turned around and blamed the Democrats for abandoning them.
You know he would have. He had absolutely no intention of ending this thing before his term was up. You all know that. It's time for you to admit it.
I know it sucks... She blew it. But the facts are the facts, and no amount of posturing is going to change that.
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ErnestoG
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:23 AM
Response to Original message |
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And notice that none of her supporters here appear to demand from her what needs to happen - an apology for her IWR vote.
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The_Casual_Observer
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:24 AM
Response to Original message |
2. This is the green party's only issue & it's already worn out. |
IndieLeft
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #2 |
3. It's not a "party" issue. It's an "American" issue |
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There is a difference, or have you forgotten that?
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The_Casual_Observer
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #3 |
11. A green campaign issue. And a worthless one at that. |
IndieLeft
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #11 |
31. You are a Democrat.... right? |
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I mean, this is Democratic Underground? right?
I would never have thought that I would come on here and listen to people say the IWR was just... nothing.
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Moochy
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #31 |
33. The technical term for those people is Liars |
ErnestoG
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #2 |
4. Tell that to any family who lost someone in Iraq. |
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And report back to us, that is, if you're still conscious.
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The_Casual_Observer
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #4 |
6. Okay, I give up, Hillary is responsible for the Iraq war. |
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You win. If it weren't for her there would have been no war. The blame is hers. Now, those families can live in peace.
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ErnestoG
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #6 |
9. Partially. And she won't admit it. Very unstatesmanlike behavior. |
The_Casual_Observer
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #9 |
14. Nope, it's all or nothing. It's either her war or it isn't. |
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No fucking partial blame.
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IndieLeft
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #14 |
30. Well, if that's how you want it, then she can have all the blame. |
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That's fine with me. Nice to see the mentality I am dealing with.
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IndieLeft
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #6 |
13. It's amazing how callous you can be about this. |
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This is a serious situation. It is not something to joke about.
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Tarc
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #13 |
16. Fix your broken priorities |
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Edited on Fri Feb-01-08 01:33 AM by Tarc
The Bush administration lied to Congress and to the American public about the intel they had on Hussein. Blame them, not her.
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IndieLeft
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #16 |
27. I do blame them, but she bares the blame as well |
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Edited on Fri Feb-01-08 01:42 AM by IndieLeft
It's not as if it was a unanimous vote. The people who bothered to do their homework got it right.
I got it right. And I didn't need an intelligence report to see they were lying to us.
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Tarc
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Fri Feb-01-08 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #27 |
39. Armchair quarterbacking always seems pretty easy, eh? |
The_Casual_Observer
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #13 |
17. You & the greens have reduced it to a cheap campaign theme. |
IndieLeft
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #17 |
35. Her lack of an apology has fed it. |
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Her inability to admit she was wrong, and if nothing less than out of respect for the fallen, offer a heartfelt apology; not just political spin.
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aquart
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #4 |
21. Ah. They blame Hillary and not Bush. Right. |
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So your contempt for your fellow Americans extends to military families?
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IndieLeft
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #21 |
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Edited on Fri Feb-01-08 01:54 AM by IndieLeft
What are you talking about?
Oh, you talking to someone else... sorry
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Yossariant
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:27 AM
Response to Original message |
5. There's a differnce between authorizing force and shock and awe. Hillary did not send one soldier |
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Edited on Fri Feb-01-08 01:28 AM by Yossariant
to Iraq.
Kucincih isn't running.
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FrenchieCat
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #5 |
7. The votes for the IWR gave Bush the legitimacy he needed.... |
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which is why he aimed for the Blank check.
Those who voted for it are complicit.
If he wouldn't have gotten a majority, he couldn't have gone in. Period.
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Yossariant
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #7 |
22. And it would have passed no matter how she or Edwards voted. |
Whisp
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #22 |
29. so why the needless vote? |
IndieLeft
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #22 |
32. At least Edwards had the integrity to admit he was wrong. |
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integrity, fortitude, intelligence, compassion....
At least he could admit it, and not be afraid to say it.
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IndieLeft
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #5 |
8. Her vote certainly did send hundreds of thousands to Iraq |
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many of whom are no longer with us, and many more who are seriously injured. How can you defend that?
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Yossariant
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #8 |
18. MOST VOTERS agreed with her. It is what it is. Sobbing can't change yesterday. |
IndieLeft
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #18 |
34. You are right, sobbing can't change yesterday |
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But an apology could change tomorrow.
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Moochy
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:30 AM
Response to Original message |
10. HRC Supporters agree with Pat Buchanan's take on IWR |
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To apologize would be to show "weakness" to the "left" and hurt her in the general. cuz yah so many love the war!
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aquart
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #10 |
19. I'm thinking you should not speak for us. |
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Speak for yourself. For your friends if they'll let you. For your family. But not for people you despise. Not for people you have none of Barack's famous "empathy" for.
Don't talk about what you do not comprehend.
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Moochy
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #19 |
24. I just took you off ignore to reply |
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"people you despise"
liars, assholes, pro-war democrats like you.
Back to ignore, sweethart. Alphabetically speaking you are #1 on my ignore list.
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FightTheRight89
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:30 AM
Response to Original message |
12. I agree wholeheartedly. |
aquart
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:32 AM
Response to Original message |
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So you justify voting for funding the war but not voting for a variety of options including military action.
Because you believe this nation would accept Bush's story of abandoning our troops because the Democrats are meanies.
Which, naturally, is the best reason for a war opposer NOT to take a stand. At the only opportunity he has to take a stand: when a funding vote comes up.
Did Hillary "blow it" when she voted for IWR? Hell, yes. I have never said otherwise. But you shouldn't have tried to justify Obama's all talk no action on the war at the same time.
That man is way too anxious to please to vote a principled NO on the only leverage Congress has against the war in Iraq. But we should vote for him, because when he's president, THEN he'll stand up and do something. Funding bills come up all the time because Iraq eats money. I don't follow Barry's votes. Surely he voted no sometime? Some day when everyone voted yes, Barry Obama stood tall and voted NO! on fueling this murderous mess? Tell me when that vote was.
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IndieLeft
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #15 |
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Edited on Fri Feb-01-08 01:37 AM by IndieLeft
If they refused to fund the war, Bush would have just left the troops over there and let the money run dry, and then blame the democrats in congress/senate.
Instead of having a wave of support, and winning back the house and senate in 06, we'd be in even a bigger hole then what we started with.
You won't hear me slam hillary for funding the war, they had no choice. They HAD to fund the war.
At the same time, you cannot say that you got tricked into voting for the war, and then expect to have the credibility to be president.
OH, and thanks for the welcome. It's.... really interesting.
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joshcryer
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:35 AM
Response to Original message |
20. No, it's worse given a candidates stance on voting "no" or "present" on something they don't like. |
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Obama could've easily voted "present" on those funding votes, but he chose not to for political reasons, just as more than half of the Democratic congress voted for the IWR for political reasons. Had they not done it the GOP would own the Senate and Bush would've won in a landslide in 2004.
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IndieLeft
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #20 |
25. That's just Illinois politics |
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They can't vote present in the US senate.
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joshcryer
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #25 |
26. Could've voted no like Planned Parenthood had him do... |
IndieLeft
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #26 |
36. Once again... You're missing my point |
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And I'm not going to type it a third time.
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aint_no_life_nowhere
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:43 AM
Response to Original message |
28. The IWR was Joseph Lieberman's effing bill |
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He was the Chief sponsor of it in the Senate. He came up with a bogus blank check that placed no restrictions on the President. The IWR specifically says the President could use the military "as he deems necessary and appropriate" and all he had to do was report to Congress that he decided to go to war, which he did in a letter. And under the War Powers Act, the President can send U.S. troops into combat for 60 days without the Congress declaring war, with another 30 day extension.
How anyone could vote with Joseph Lieberman for a war bill and how anyone could defend those who supported Joseph Lieberman's legislation is beyond me.
The issue of whether or not to fund the war is more complicated, what with the thought that weapons, ammunition, flak vests, helmets and other materiel vital to keep the soldiers alive is part of the equation.
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IndieLeft
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #28 |
37. Lieberman disgusts me.... How the hell did he end up re-elected? |
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And now he's probably going to be on McCain's ticket. I hope he does, I really hope McCain chooses him as a running mate, just so I can see him kill another campaign. He owes us that much.
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