Times (UK): "Hillary had the better of the night"

[bidenista]

February 1, 2008
What happened to the Obama-Clinton smackdown?
Gerard Baker, US Editor, in Los Angeles

...Both candidates had evidently decided that, five days from what could be the dispositive day of the Democratic primary – Super Tuesday - was no time to take a risk.

But it wasn't without its moments. These days presidential debates hinge on moments. Only weird people and journalists (but I repeat myself) watch debates all the way through and form some kind of general impression of the candidates' intellectual bearing and debating strengths. Real people with real lives and better television viewing choices will get their only impression of a debate from the 15-second soundbites they see or hear on the news or the internet.

By that criterion, Hillary had the better of the night.

The most memorable moment was her cleverly rehearsed line that "It did take a Clinton to clean up after the first Bush and I think it might take another one to clean up after the second Bush." It was concise; it was funny (by the low standards of Democratic humour) and it (almost) rebutted one of the strongest arguments against her, that the Clintons represent a dangerous dynastic tendency in American politics. It was also especially effective because it wasn't a "zinger", a one-liner addressed at the other candidate, but a unifying critique of the political opposition. Democratic voters will have loved it. Nothing else came close to being as memorable. There was an awful lot of detail on the domestic issues. There was an awful lot of agreement on the quintessential evil of the Republican Party....

More: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article3287003.ece

[joshcryer]

1. Good stuff.

[cobalt1999]

2. How come the Times reporter can write so well,

and our reporters produce such unreadable crap.

There are some great lines in that article..."Only weird people and journalists (but I repeat myself)"

[bidenista]

4. gerard baker is a great journalist. nt

[muriel_volestrangler]

15. Sad to say, Gerard Baker is the worst neocon in UK journalism

There has been no greater cheerleader for Bush and the Iraq war.

[truebrit71]

18. Um...no he isn't a great journalist...reich-wing cheerleader? Yes, journalist?..not even close...

...

[sunonmars]

3. everyone and i mean everyone i know is talking about that line

Its doing her tremendous good out there.

One thing i definitively came through last night was Hillary made the point of how good it was under the Clintons.

That was an enormous plus.

[Maribelle]

5. The Times Union perpetuates the myth that Obama would be right on day one

Obama makes great speeches, delivering his words with great oratory skills that reminds some of MLK. This is a fact few on earth could even deny. But it also reminds some of the snake oil salesmen of old and why they were so successful.

In "the speech" that far too many conceptually support as proof that Obama would be right on day one, he was actually quite insincere. In the speech, Obama claimed I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States . But he didn't know. He was shooting craps. He picked pieces of information others had spoken about, simply rephrasing their exact words so he does not appear as a plagiarizer, and inserting other's words in the middle of a lot of fluff - - the fluff that makes Obama loved.

I was totally against the war at the time because I hated Bush and did not trust him as far as I could toss the vault at Fort Knox, not because I could clearly access the top secret information provided in the National Intelligence Estimate, not because I could base a decision on the once-trusted head of the CIA.

And neither could Obama, quite frankly. Obama did not know. Obama made a crap shoot.

There are six or seven elements in Obama's speech that look to me as if he pulled them from Hillary's floor speech two weeks earlier.

There are other elements that others had spoken in the same time frame.

Obama did not know. Obama listened to the furor that was spreading like wild fire castigating the IWR vote, and then created his speech. While his gamble payed off today, I would be terribly afraid for folks to put this guy up as president because his gamble paid off.

Obama needs to tell the truth about the foundation on which he based his anti-Iraq-War decisions.

[Maribelle]

13. Obama's words or Hillary's?

#1 While there is no perfect approach to this thorny dilemma, and while people of good faith and high intelligence can reach diametrically opposed conclusions, I believe the best course is to go to the UN for a strong resolution that scraps the 1998 restrictions on inspections and calls for complete, unlimited inspections with cooperation expected and demanded from Iraq. I know that the Administration wants more, including an explicit authorization to use force, but we may not be able to secure that now, perhaps even later. But if we get a clear requirement for unfettered inspections, I believe the authority to use force to enforce that mandate is inherent in the original 1991 UN resolution, as President Clinton recognized when he launched Operation Desert Fox in 1998.

#2 Let’s fight to make sure that the UN inspectors can do their work, and that we vigorously enforce a non-proliferation treaty, and that former enemies and current allies like Russia safeguard and ultimately eliminate their stores of nuclear material, and that nations like Pakistan and India never use the terrible weapons already in their possession, and that the arms merchants in our own country stop feeding the countless wars that rage across the globe.



#1 Saddam Hussein is a tyrant who has tortured and killed his own people, even his own family members, to maintain his iron grip on power. He used chemical weapons on Iraqi Kurds and on Iranians, killing over 20 thousand people. Unfortunately, during the 1980's, while he engaged in such horrific activity, he enjoyed the support of the American government, because he had oil and was seen as a counterweight to the Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran.

#2 Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal man. A ruthless man. A man who butchers his own people to secure his own power. He has repeatedly defied UN resolutions, thwarted UN inspection teams, developed chemical and biological weapons, and coveted nuclear capacity.
He’s a bad guy. The world, and the Iraqi people, would be better off without him.


#1 If we were to attack Iraq now, alone or with few allies, it would set a precedent that could come back to haunt us.

#2 I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames ...

[SIMPLYB1980]

6. K&R

[UALRBSofL]

7. I have to disagree

I think both Hillary and Obama did equally well. They have great ideas that can only help people. Now, the issue is getting a nominee and then getting him/her in the WH and trying to push for these issues.

[truebrit71]

8. ...and the Times is owned by whom you ask? None other than Rupert Murdoch...

...that well known Liberal and champion of the underclasses around the world...

:eyes:

[joeybee12]

9. Are you sure about that?

The Times has the best reputation in England...I thought Rupert owned some of the tabloids...there are lots of those in London.

[truebrit71]

16. 100% positive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Times

..and no it doesn't have the "best reputation" in England...it used to have a good reputation until Satan took it over...

"best" would go to either the Independent or the Guardian...

[bidenista]

10. he also owns the tabloid ny post, which endorsed obama

I don't think Murdoch dictates every article in his papers.

[truebrit71]

17. Just in the "respectable" ones....

...

[CGowen]

11. Rupert was so kind to host a fundraiser for Hillary, so nothing unusual

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/05/09/politics/main1600694.shtml

[William769]

12. Who owns the New York Post that endorsed Obama?

:eyes:

[Rock_Garden]

14. It wasn't a good night for either of them to go wing walking.

Sure, the media craved a smackdown, but I'm glad they didn't get it. This is too important.