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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 12:36 PM
Original message
Obama flip-flops to pander to Hispanics
I guess his answer depends on which ethnic group he needs for his next primary-

CUMMINGS: This is from Kim Millman (ph) from Burnsville, Minnesota. And she says, "there's been no acknowledgement by any of the presidential candidates of the negative economic impact of immigration on the African-American community. How do you propose to address the high unemployment rates and the declining wages in the African-American community that are related to the flood of immigrant labor?"

Senator Obama, you want to go first on that? And it's for both of you.

OBAMA: Well, let me first of all say that I have worked on the streets of Chicago as an organizer with people who have been laid off from steel plants, black, white, Hispanic, Asian, and, you know, all of them are feeling economically insecure right now, and they have been for many years. Before the latest round of immigrants showed up, you had huge unemployment rates among African-American youth.

And, so, I think to suggest somehow that the problem that we're seeing in inner-city unemployment, for example, is attributable to immigrants, I think, is a case of scapegoating that I do not believe in, I do not subscribe to.

(APPLAUSE)
.....

Just last May here was his answer-

"It does appear that undocumented workers have a somewhat adverse effect in depressing the wages of low-skill workers, which is why in the African-American community, for example, there is some nervousness of about the number of undocumented workers that are coming into this country and whether they are systematically replacing or pushing out low-skill, low-wage black workers."
http://obama.senate.gov/podcast/060504-immigration_ral/


He is very smooth, thats for sure.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
1. So we may end up an inexperienced two faced pink tutu Democrat as our nominee
whoopee...
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
2. OMG, he's acting like a politician!
Talk about flipping and flopping...

SEX THREAD!!


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debatepro Donating Member (683 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
3. He says it is 'a' factor
there are many other factors... and lets not scapegoat... these aren't inconsistant... or mutually exclusive.
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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Where is the word "factor"?
"It does appear that undocumented workers have a somewhat adverse effect in depressing the wages of low-skill workers, which is why in the African-American community, for example, there is some nervousness of about the number of undocumented workers that are coming into this country and whether they are systematically replacing or pushing out low-skill, low-wage black workers."
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debatepro Donating Member (683 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #6
24. Your ripping the quote out of context.
On the one hand, I think many of us (including myself) believe that these people are doing what any of us would do if we had an opportunity for a better life for our kids. They take the risk of coming here; many of them are extraordinarily impoverished and would not likely be able to get to the United States through the limited number of visas that are currently issued.

On the other hand, we are a nation of laws and these people did come here outside of the law. Economists debate what kind of effect undocumented workers have in this country. There's no doubt that in many areas, like the agricultural sector, these immigrants are doing work that Americans would not do, at least at the wages that are paid. There are other circumstances in which it is clear that employers are importing these workers simply because they don't want to pay the living wages that Americans demand. There is no doubt that if construction companies were willing to pay more that they would see more U.S. workers applying for those jobs. It does appear that undocumented workers have a somewhat adverse effect in depressing the wages of low-skill workers, which is why in the African-American community, for example, there is some nervousness of about the number of undocumented workers that are coming into this country and whether they are systematically replacing or pushing out low-skill, low-wage black workers.

Having said all that, I think we need to recognize that if we are going to uphold the traditions of this country as a nation of immigrants, than we are going to have to deal with this issue in a way that reflects common sense and compassion.


Take jobs Americans don't want! Means that immigrants aren't the sole factor in depressing wages of low-skilled workers... lets not be 'political" with this... obama believes there are many factors that contribute to depressing wages... to rip this quote out in isolation of all other statements... even in the same speech which undercut your thesis... is desperate...

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REDFISHBLUEFISH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. He is very inconsisistent, In fact he outrightlied in adebate about Rezko.
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1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
4. This was also a topic at the B&B forum, in Iowa...
Edited on Fri Feb-01-08 12:42 PM by 1corona4u
and Joe was backstage when it was being discussed. When they brought him out, he was pissed that people on stage, had been 'pitting' blacks against hispanics, and all other races, for that matter. He also pointed out that the majority of immigrants in this country, don't come from Mexico. He rattled off the numbers in typical Joe Biden fashion. I really missed that in the debate last night. One would think that a candidate for president would have known that info as well...
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REDFISHBLUEFISH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
5. Obama is a candidate for change...CHANGING his story.
The guy is not very honest.

Rezco lie of ONLY 5 hours of law work being entire relationship STANDS OUT BIG TIME!
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1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Seven Common Signs of Lying...
1.No eye contact. Generally, if someone is lying they will not look you in the eye, at least during a certain part of the conversation. Normally, people make eye contact for at least half of a conversation, so anything less than this could be suspicious. One caveat: there are some people who will take great pains to make eye contact with you even if they're lying, simply to make you think they're not.

2.Change in voice. A change in the pitch of a person's tone, or a lot of stammering (umm, ah), or throat clearing could indicate a lie.

3.Unusual body language. If a person taps their foot a lot, fidgets with their hands, raises their shoulders, turns away from you or brings their hand to their face (to touch their chin or nose, etc.) -- in other words, if they act nervous or uncomfortable -- it could mean they're telling a lie. Also watch out for blushing (or becoming pale) and increased blinking.

4.Something sounds fishy. Making statements that contradict each other, are inconsistent or don't sound quite right are usually part of a lie.

5.Overly defensive. Sometimes when a person is lying they will become extremely defensive, refusing to answer any questions and even accusing you of lying. This may mean they have something to hide.

6.Changes subject easily. If someone is lying and you change the subject, chances are high that they'll go right along with it. A person telling the truth, however, will likely ask why you changed the subject and want to go back to it.

7.Humor or sarcasm. A guilty person will often try to change the subject using humor or sarcasm.

Of course, no one behavior can tell for sure whether or not someone is telling the truth or lying. While you should trust your instinct, if you're not sure it's best to try to get some evidence to back up your accusation. Rather than relying on a specific behavior, catching a liar in the act is best done by watching their normal behaviors. When those behaviors suddenly change, that's when a lie has likely been told.


http://www.sixwise.com/newsletters/05/06/29/the_top_seven_signs_that_someone_is_lying_to_you.htm

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Bodhi BloodWave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. actually that was no lie
Hillary's comment was rather specific in regards to working for Rezzy boy, and Obama answered what work he had done in that regards, Why should he start giving a detailed story about his friendship with rezzy when he wasn't asked?
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REDFISHBLUEFISH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Semantics.
He is basing his campaign on change and frankly it is FALSE.

He is misleading his followers.
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Bodhi BloodWave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. no, it was a straightforward answer to a straightforward question
You can't blame Obama for the fact that Hillary basically lobbed him a softball claim
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REDFISHBLUEFISH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. You do not consider CAMPAIGNING for and TEAMING up in real estate ventures working together?
He stated his WORK related to Rezko was limited to 5 hours.

That is a LIE!
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Bodhi BloodWave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. Clintons words in the debate
CLINTON: Bad for America, and I was fighting against those ideas when you were practicing law and representing your contributor, Resco, in his slum landlord business in inner city Chicago.

Obamas retort:

OBAMA: I'm happy to respond. Here's what happened: I was an associate at a law firm that represented a church group that had partnered with this individual to do a project and I did about five hours worth of work on this joint project. That's what she's referring to.

and to back up Obama's side

Billing records from Obama's former law firm show that he did do five hours of legal work in the late 1990s for community groups that partnered with Rezko's development company, but did not work for Rezko directly.

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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. I know this is hard to follow.....
but maybe it will help...

Hillary Clinton on Monday, January 21st, 2008 in a debate in Myrtle Beach, S.C.
A fragment of truth, distorted
Barely True
In one of the most heated exchanges of the Democratic debates, Hillary Clinton on Monday night fired off this pointed attack on Barack Obama:

“I was fighting against those (Republican) ideas when you were practicing law and representing your contributor, Rezko, in his slum landlord business in inner city Chicago.”

Asked later to respond, Obama said, “Here’s what happened: I was an associate at a law firm that represented a church group that had partnered with this individual to do a project and I did about five hours worth of work on this joint project.”

The man in question here is Antoin “Tony” Rezko, a Chicago real estate developer and fast food magnate now under federal indictment. He’s also a longtime friend of Obama who over the years did a good amount of fundraising for him.

In April 2007, the Chicago Sun-Times reported that Obama did some legal work between 1995 and 1998 on a series of troubled low-income housing deals involving Rezmar Corp., owned by Rezko.

Reporter Tim Novak reported that Obama was an associate attorney with the small Chicago law firm, Davis Miner Barnhill & Galland, that helped Rezmar and not-for-profit community groups secure more than $43-million in government funding to rehab 15 apartment buildings for the poor. Four ended up in foreclosure.


In all, Novak reported, Rezmar rehabbed 30 buildings, a third of which were in the Illinois Senate district Obama represented between 1997 and 2004. Many of the buildings fell into squalid disrepair and financial straits while Obama was state senator, prompting the city to repeatedly sue over problems, including no heat.

Obama’s campaign staff told the Sun-Times that Obama worked on some of the deals, but that his Rezmar-related work amounted to just five hours.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Bottom line, Clinton’s claim is Barely True. Obama, by his own admission, did some, albeit very little, legal work that helped Rezko’s company obtain properties that would later be neglected. But the allegations that Rezko was a slumlord did not arise, at least not publicly, until years after Obama performed that work.

http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/306/



On the April 24 edition of Fox News' Special Report with Brit Hume, chief Washington correspondent Jim Angle claimed that an April 23 Chicago Sun-Times article "alleged Obama did legal work for Rezko that enabled him to get $43 million in government funding to rehab 15 buildings." In fact, the Sun-Times reported that while Obama worked at the law firm that helped Rezko's company, Rezmar, secure the government funding, his role in the Rezmar deals is "unclear," and that Obama's campaign said Obama worked only five hours on Rezmar-related deals. "Senator Obama did not directly represent Mr. Rezko or his firms," according to an email from Obama's staff that the Sun-Times quoted. "He did represent on a very limited basis ventures in which Mr. Rezko's entities participated along with others."

Angle also reported: "Rezko's the same man whose wife bought the lot next door to Obama's house on the same day the senator bought his home, then later sold half that lot to Obama for 1/3 its original value." A December 17, 2006, Washington Post article, however, cited an Obama spokesman in reporting that Obama purchased one-sixth of Rezko's lot and paid Rezko more than double its appraised value because "Obama considered it fair to pay one-sixth of the original price for one-sixth of the lot."

As Media Matters for America has documented, several media outlets have cast the Obama-Rezko land deal as a "scandal," despite the complete absence of evidence of impropriety or allegation of wrongdoing.
http://mediamatters.org/items/200704250011



* Land deal

On November 1, 2006, the Chicago Tribune reported that Obama and Antoin "Tony" Rezko -- who had "pleaded not guilty to federal charges involving pay-to-play allegations that surround Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich's administration" -- bought adjoining properties on the same day in 2005 and that as Obama and Rezko "jointly worked to improve their side-by-side properties, the two men entered an ongoing series of personal financial arrangements." The Tribune article alleged no wrongdoing and quoted Obama saying: "I haven't been involved with in any legislative work whatsoever or any government activities of any sort." The article noted: "In normal circumstances, the two real estate transactions probably wouldn't have raised an eyebrow. There is, after all, nothing illegal or untoward about an aggressive developer buying hot property next door to a rising political star." Indeed, the only apparent cause for the article's existence was that "these are not normal times for either Obama or Rezko."

Even though the article alleged no wrongdoing on Obama's part, the Tribune editorialized two days later, writing that "the senator's real estate tie to Rezko threatens to leave Obama hoisted by his ethics petard."

More than a month later, Slate.com teased a December 14 article, headlined "Barackwater" and written by Slate chief political correspondent John Dickerson, by suggesting that the article exposed a "Shady Real Estate Deal" involving Obama. The article, whose headline was a reference to the Clinton-era Whitewater real-estate "scandal," which gave rise to an extensive, multimillion-dollar investigation that turned up no evidence of illegality by the Clintons, in fact explained that there is "no evidence" Obama did anything wrong.

But even with the constant refrain that Obama had not "been accused of wrongdoing," as the AP reported, the discussion of the land deal came up again following Obama's announcement that he was forming an exploratory committee. For instance, on the January 20 edition of Fox News Watch, Newsday columnist Jim Pinkerton asserted that one of "the questions about a fellow ... named Barack Hussein Obama" is "about this land deal he had." Similarly, during a report on the January 16 edition of ABC's Nightline, ABC News senior national correspondent Jake Tapper asked, "Just who the hell is Barack Obama?" and noted that voters "may not like what they hear about a questionable land deal was involved in with a political operative since indicted for fraud."
http://mediamatters.org/items/200703200011#landdeal




Q: Senator, when did you first meet Tony Rezko? How did you become friends? How often would you meet with him, and when did you last speak with him?

A: I had attracted some media attention when I was elected the first black President of the Harvard Law Review. And while I was in law school, David Brint, who was a development partner with Tony Rezko contacted me and asked whether I would be interested in being a developer. Ultimately, after discussions in which I met Mr. Rezko, I said no.

I have probably had lunch with Rezko once or twice a year and our spouses may have gotten together on two to four occasions in the time that I have known him. I last spoke with Tony Rezko more than six months ago.

Q:. Have you or your wife participated in any other transactions of any kind with Rezko or companies he owns? Have you or your wife ever done any legal work ever for Rezko or his companies?

A: No.

Q: Has Rezko ever given you or your family members gifts of any kind and, if so, what were they?

A: No.

Q: The seller of your house appears to be a doctor at the University of Chicago . Do you or your wife know him? If so, did either of you ever talk to him about subdividing the property? If you ever did discuss the property with him, when were those conversations?

A: We did not know him personally, though my wife worked in the same University hospital. The property was subdivided and two lots were separately listed when we first learned of it. We did not discuss the property with the owners; the sale was negotiated for us by our agent.

Q: Did you approach Rezko or his wife about the property, or did they approach you?

A: To the best of my recollection, I told him about the property, and he developed an interest, knowing both the location and, as I recall, the developer who had previously purchased it.

Q: Who was your Realtor? Did this Realtor also represent Rita Rezko?

A: Miriam Zeltzerman, who had also represented me in the purchase of my prior property, a condominium, in Hyde Park. She did not represent Rita Rezko.

Q: How do you explain the fact your family purchased your home the same day as Rita Rezko bought the property adjacent to yours? Was this a coordinated purchase?

A: The sellers required the closing of both properties at the same time. As they were moving out of town, they wished to conclude the sale of both properties simultaneously. The lot was purchased first; with the purchase of the house on the adjacent lot, the closings could proceed and did, on the same day, pursuant to the condition set by the sellers.

Q: Why is it that you were able to buy your parcel for $300,000 less than the asking price, and Rita Rezko paid full price? Who negotiated this end of the deal? Did whoever negotiated it have any contact with Rita and Tony Rezko or their Realtor or lawyer?

A: Our agent negotiated only with the seller's agent. As we understood it, the house had been listed for some time, for months, and our offer was one of two and, as we understood it, it was the best offer. The original listed price was too high for the market at the time, and we understood that the sellers, who were anxious to move, were prepared to sell the house for what they paid for it, which is what they did.

We were not involved in the Rezko negotiation of the price for the adjacent lot. It was our understanding that the owners had received, from another buyer, an offer for $625,000 and that therefore the Rezkos could not have offered or purchased that lot for less.
Read more.....
http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/124171,CST-NWS-obama05.article
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Bodhi BloodWave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Thanks for all that info, will be usefull for later situations :) n/t
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
8. I don't think any person that supports Hillary can take the high road on being honest
It's just hypocritical, honestly.

Both of them pander.
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REDFISHBLUEFISH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Obama seems to notget called on it.
His change mantra is false, Heis the same. I'll take the added experience if its allthe same!

Hillary 08!
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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. But, but he's the candidate of Hope, and unity


He's the candidate "who won't just tell you what you want to hear, but what you need to know."
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/politics/ny-usobam0105-transcript,0,7073760.story

The candidate that can make you believe again.
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REDFISHBLUEFISH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. Fact check anything he says?
You would be surprised!
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. you may want to fact check yourself- actually read the entire statement
he made last may-

The OP links to it.

Go ahead, read it- I challenge you- and then come back and show us that there has been any substantial change in his policy-

Selective quoting is no different than lying. The intent is to decieve.


peace~
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
14. Maybe it's context?
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/01/31/dem.debate.transcript/index.html

OBAMA: I believe that we can be a nation of laws and a nation of immigrants.

Now, there is no doubt that we have to get control of our borders. We can't have hundreds of thousands of people coming over to the United States without us having any idea who they are.

I also believe that we do have to crack down on those employers that are taking advantage of the situation, hiring folks who cannot complain about worker conditions, who aren't getting the minimum wage sometimes, or aren't getting overtime. We have to crack down on them. I also believe we have to give a pathway to citizenship after they have paid a fine and learned English, to those who are already here, because if we don't, they will continue to undermine U.S. wages.


But let's understand more broadly that the economic problems that African-Americans are experiencing, whites are experiences, blacks and Latinos are experiencing in this country are all rooted in the fact that we have had an economy out of balance. We've had tax cuts that went up instead of down. We have had a lack of investment in basic infrastructure in this country. Our education system is chronically underfunded.

(APPLAUSE)

And so, there are a whole host of reasons why we have not been generating the kinds of jobs that we are generating. We should not use immigration as a tactic to divide. Instead, we should pull the country together to get this economy back on track.


That's what I intend to do as president of the United States of America.

(APPLAUSE)

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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. you obviously don't
simply take a statement as true- on face value.

And I admire that.

His voice on this issue really is pretty consistant.

And reasonable- (IMO)


:hi:
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. It's such an over-used tactic...
that the first thought that entires my mind when I see selected text is bullshit.
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
17. Not inconsistent to admit there is a problem, but refuse to scapegoat undocumented workers.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
18. Omg! This is incredible! I am changing my vote from Obama to Clinton now!!
:eyes:
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
20. geez- this is pretty desperate. There really is no issue here at all-
You need to go back and read the ENTIRE statement that you post from his site.
His views have not changed substantially at all.



You are looking for nits to pick-

The question asked him to condemn undocumented workers as the cause of high unemployment rates and low wages- He very correctly refused to place the blame on illegal immigrants. He refused to 'scape-goat' them. To make them take the brunt of the blame for our failing economy. Do you disagree????

As you cite, in may of last year he said:

His old statement said "it does appear that undocumented workers have somewhat adverse effect in depressing the wages of wages of low-skill workers...which is why in the African-American community, for example there is some nervousness..."

You'd do well to read the rest of his statement- His stand has not actually changed at all. It is very clear that he does NOT wish to condemn the illegal immigrant population for our failing economy, low wages, and lack of jobs- and he makes some uncomfortable- and critical statements pointing out the hypocrisy of us wanting to have undocumented citizens picking our lettuce- plucking our chickens, caring for out children and doing our yard work- while not affording them the benefits of citizenship.

If you are looking for ways to diss Obama- keep looking. - you haven't found a credible one here.

peace~

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