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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 02:15 PM
Original message
Mandates without subsidies on the front end
Are a recipe for disaster.

People that cant afford health care in the first place aren't going to suddenly be able to afford it because they get a tax credit after they have paid at the end of the year. Once they get through the first year they should be ok, but the first year wont happen without cash up front. So then we force people into fines or whatever that worsen the situation instead of making it better.

Unless the government provides the subsidies up front its a complete sham.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
1. I agree. Obama seeking to fine families is atrocious.
But in all seriousness

The American Health Choices Plan will make health insurance more affordable for the millions of
Americans who want it. It includes a number of straightforward policies to achieve this end:
1) Ensuring Premium Affordability Through Refundable Tax Credits: Premiums have
skyrocketed over the last several years – nearly double since 2000. The American Health
Choices Plan helps working families afford coverage through refundable, income-related
tax credits to ensure that accessible, high-quality health coverage is affordable to all.
2) Limiting Premium Payments to a Percentage of Income: This credit will ensure that
securing quality health care is never a crushing burden for any working family. This
guarantee will be achieved through a premium affordability tax credit that ensures that
health premiums never rise above a certain percentage of family income. The tax credit will
be indexed over time, and designed to maintain consumer price consciousness in
choosing health plans, even for those who reach the percentage of income limit.

3) Promoting Shared Responsibility for Large Employers: Hillary Clinton’s comprehensive
agenda to lower costs and improve quality will substantially lower costs for employers,
making it easier for all firms to continue coverage or offer new health benefits to their
workers. In return, large employers will be expected to provide health insurance to their
employees or make some contribution to the cost of coverage. This responsibility will take
into account firms’ size and average wages.
4) Creating Small Business Tax Credit: Small businesses are engines of job growth in our
economy. They account for 80 percent of net new jobs since 1990xvi and create jobs that
stay here in America. Yet, they also face the most acute challenges to providing health care
for their employees. Small businesses face higher premiums due to limited purchasing
power and tend to employ lower-income workers.xvii As a result, small employers cover far
fewer of their employees – and the proportion that offers coverage in the first place is less
than half that of large firms that offer health insurance. Coverage among small employers
is eroding. Since 2000, the share of these small firms offering coverage has fallen from 57
percent to 45 percent.xviii At a time when health care costs are increasingly undermining
the economic competitiveness of American business, Hillary Clinton’s plan seeks to make it
easier — not harder — for small businesses to create new jobs with health care for workers
here in the U.S. Specifically, small businesses that provide quality coverage (e.g., benefits
like what Members of Congress receive) and contribute most of the premiums for their
workers would qualify for a refundable tax credit. The tax credit could be structured as a
traditional policy (e.g., a credit equal to 50 percent of premiums for firms with fewer than
25 employees and less for medium-size employers). As President, Hillary Clinton would
work with the small business community and Congress to design the parameters of the
credit (e.g., protecting against subsidizing boutique high-income firms) as well as how the
credit might dovetail with the tax credit going to individuals and families to make
premiums affordable.
5) Strengthening Medicaid and the State Children’s Health Insurance Program to Serve
All Low-Income Individuals: These programs serve over 55 million Americans, and have
done so successfully through federal-state and private-public collaborations. The holes in
this safety net (e.g., lack of coverage of poor, childless adults) will be fixed to ensure that
the most vulnerable populations receive affordable, quality care. Similarly, the other part
of the safety net, like public hospitals and community health centers, will continue to
receive support to serve vulnerable populations.

6) Creating a Retiree Health Legacy Initiative: For major American employers with
workforces that face unusually high health care costs due to a high ratio of retirees, health
care costs can be a drag on competitiveness and job creation – particularly for our major
manufacturers. The American Health Choices Plan will provide a tax credit for qualifying
private and public retiree health plans to offset a significant portion of catastrophic
expenditures that exceed a certain threshold. Such reinsurance would be time-limited to
reflect the short-term demographic need of the aging baby boomers, and would be
devised in a manner that does not add to our long-term fiscal challenges. The policy will be
designed to make companies more competitive and assist workers – and not to take
pressure off the need for strong managerial leadership at the top. Participating companies
would also have to demonstrate that they are employing best health practices, including
chronic care management, information technology, and other modernization initiatives
that maximize value, quality, and accountability. Finally, employers will also have the
option of buying early retirees into the new Health Choices Menu.
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. again that doesn't work
Limiting Premium Payments to a Percentage of Income:

when all of their income is already being spent, any percentage over 0 ensures they cant afford it till after they get their tax return. its a which came first thing the chicken or the egg.

It doesn't matter what percentage you limit it to when people are living on credit they don't have the upfront money in the first place.Throwing a mandate on top of it guarantees a penalty for millions of americans no matter what subsidies you put on the back end. It has to be up front or it wont happen.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Again those people will be enrolled in a gov't run program like MediAID, MEdiCrae or SCHIP.
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Those people ? Who are those people?
Edited on Fri Feb-01-08 02:30 PM by Egnever
America is drowning in a sea of debt. Those people are a whole lot of people.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Yes and what does that mean?
A critical mass of people using a government run single payer system leaving insurance companies in the dust in the marketplace as both individuals and companies realize the expense saved by going with a government plan vs private.

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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. not sure i understand what you are trying to say there.
that so many people will be inable to afford it that the government will be forced to put everyone on medicare because of the mandate?

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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Yes, defacto single payer.
I'm after single payer.

Hillary's plan has major faults.

But the combination of expansion of existing government insurance and creation of new ones based on those existing models combined with a mandate that everyone must have some type of coverage means a great deal of people will be on government run programs.
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. well that assumes a lot
Unfortunately I think the start of it wont go off anything like planned.

I would much rather we had true single payer and if thats not what we get I dont want people fined till we do get it.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Why not just open up Medicare to anyone who wants it?
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. That would work for me
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. I would love to.
Unfortunately Kucinich never had a shot at this nomination and the Hillary/Edwards model is the next best thing available that could leads us to the Kucinich model.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. hey diphead, *I* am those people
And I am sick to death of you pretending you know anything about low income working families because you clearly don't. And none of your programs help childless people either who make up the bulk of the adult uninsured.

Her Plan SUCKS.
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
2. If the tax credit covers the cost of their insurance
and if the income levels for that credit have some relationship to the real world.

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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. How will people strapped to begin with come up with the money
for the initial year before they get the tax credit?

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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. I was responding to the OP's line that people would be okay after the first year
I don't think they'll be okay the first year or any year after because we all know the tax credits won't cover what they were expected to pay. And, I would imagine low income single people who have no children, are under 65 and not disabled will really get screwed with this plan.
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. I am the OP
I think we are in agreement on this though
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. Whoops, I should have scrolled up to the top and checked names
:hi:

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. It would need to go straight to an annual premium
Otherwise people will be in real trouble in the middle of winter if they're still trying to pay premiums and increased heating costs.
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
18. Ted Kennedy's view on Barack Obama and universal healthcare.
Obama spokesman Bill Burton responded by pointing to comments by Massachusetts Sen. Ted Kennedy, a longtime champion of universal health care who endorsed Obama earlier this week.

"It's the passion of my life, universal comprehensive health care, and I wouldn't support Barack Obama unless I was absolutely convinced that he was for universal comprehensive health care as well," Kennedy said in a television interview. "I've tried for 38 years to get the universal comprehensive health care. I've supported 12 different proposals to try to get there. Elect Barack Obama and we will get there."

http://www.salon.com/wires/ap/2008/02/01/D8UHMUMO0_clinton_obama_mailer/index.html">Link
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 03:53 PM
Original message
I like Teddy's enthusiasm
I hope he is right.
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. ooops double post
Edited on Fri Feb-01-08 03:53 PM by Egnever
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