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IndianaJones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 10:23 PM
Original message
So when Obama voted to fund the war, and later realized he had made a mistake...
is that the judgment he is referring to?
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. I think there's a false argument going on about whose judgment is better.
Obama should have had the courage to vote against all funding.

Hillary should have had the courage to vote against the war, and all funding, and she should have a position that is not contradictory (telling voters that she will end the war, except for guarding embassies, training the Iraqis and hunting down terrorists, which is pretty much what the war is now).
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IndianaJones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. How can Obama claim to have better judgment?
He voted to re-authorize the war. He admitted it was a mistake, and then voted against funding.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Where did I say he had an argument for better judgment?
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Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
2. So when Hillary put us into the war, and then accuses Carl Levin of selling us out to the UN. . .
Is that the insanity the rest of us are referring to?
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IndianaJones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Obama re-authorized the war with billions of dollars. nt.
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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. So did Hillary...
so I'm trying to figure out your argument. Hillary was one of those that put us in this fucked up situation.
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IndianaJones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. thats my argument...Obama is not an anti-war candidate. nt.
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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Funding..
has really nothing to do with it at this point.
If dems cut of funding, the President would just leave our troops to be slaughtered in Iraq and the Democratic Party would get blamed. Ever think about that?

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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
19. Did you read the Levin Amendment? I would like to know how
twisted your argument would have to get to claim that it didn't essentially say:

"If the UN says it is OK, then you can go to war... if not, come back and see us about it later."
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. lol, I think I'll just watch awhile and let you handle this. nt
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #19
27. the post is from a ill-informed Obamacamper who obv. has NOT read the amendment.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
24. She voted NO as did 75 other dems including kerry,,fiengols. Your language is jumping the shark!
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #2
29. the insanity is that you just made yourself look stupid--Read the L. amendment before you spout off.


So when Hillary put us into the war, and then accuses Carl Levin of selling us out to the UN. . .

Is that the insanity the rest of us are referring to?
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Little Star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
5. Sorta like telling someone its wrong to smoke. Then buying
them a pack of smokes! You can't be truely against something and then fund the thing you are against, then expect to have credibility.:silly:
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IndianaJones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #5
18. he's not agains the war...never was. nt.
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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. Bullshit...
Delivered on 26 October 2002 at an anti-war rally in Chicago by Barack Obama, Illinois Senator.

Good afternoon. Let me begin by saying that although this has been billed as an anti-war rally, I stand before you as someone who is not opposed to war in all circumstances.

The Civil War was one of the bloodiest in history, and yet it was only through the crucible of the sword, the sacrifice of multitudes, that we could begin to perfect this union, and drive the scourge of slavery from our soil. I don’t oppose all wars.

My grandfather signed up for a war the day after Pearl Harbor was bombed, fought in Patton’s army. He saw the dead and dying across the fields of Europe; he heard the stories of fellow troops who first entered Auschwitz and Treblinka. He fought in the name of a larger freedom, part of that arsenal of democracy that triumphed over evil, and he did not fight in vain.

I don’t oppose all wars.

After September 11th, after witnessing the carnage and destruction, the dust and the tears, I supported this Administration’s pledge to hunt down and root out those who would slaughter innocents in the name of intolerance, and I would willingly take up arms myself to prevent such a tragedy from happening again.

I don’t oppose all wars. And I know that in this crowd today, there is no shortage of patriots, or of patriotism. What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz and other arm-chair, weekend warriors in this Administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne.

What I am opposed to is the attempt by political hacks like Karl Rove to distract us from a rise in the uninsured, a rise in the poverty rate, a drop in the median income – to distract us from corporate scandals and a stock market that has just gone through the worst month since the Great Depression.

That’s what I’m opposed to. A dumb war. A rash war. A war based not on reason but on passion, not on principle but on politics.

Now let me be clear – I suffer no illusions about Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal man. A ruthless man. A man who butchers his own people to secure his own power. He has repeatedly defied UN resolutions, thwarted UN inspection teams, developed chemical and biological weapons, and coveted nuclear capacity.

He’s a bad guy. The world, and the Iraqi people, would be better off without him.

But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors, that the Iraqi economy is in shambles, that the Iraqi military a fraction of its former strength, and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history.

I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a US occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences. I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of al-Qaeda.

I am not opposed to all wars. I’m opposed to dumb wars.

So for those of us who seek a more just and secure world for our children, let us send a clear message to the president today. You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s finish the fight with Bin Laden and al-Qaeda, through effective, coordinated intelligence, and a shutting down of the financial networks that support terrorism, and a homeland security program that involves more than color-coded warnings.

You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s fight to make sure that the UN inspectors can do their work, and that we vigorously enforce a non-proliferation treaty, and that former enemies and current allies like Russia safeguard and ultimately eliminate their stores of nuclear material, and that nations like Pakistan and India never use the terrible weapons already in their possession, and that the arms merchants in our own country stop feeding the countless wars that rage across the globe.

You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s fight to make sure our so-called allies in the Middle East, the Saudis and the Egyptians, stop oppressing their own people, and suppressing dissent, and tolerating corruption and inequality, and mismanaging their economies so that their youth grow up without education, without prospects, without hope, the ready recruits of terrorist cells.

You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s fight to wean ourselves off Middle East oil, through an energy policy that doesn’t simply serve the interests of Exxon and Mobil.

Those are the battles that we need to fight. Those are the battles that we willingly join. The battles against ignorance and intolerance. Corruption and greed. Poverty and despair.

The consequences of war are dire, the sacrifices immeasurable. We may have occasion in our lifetime to once again rise up in defense of our freedom, and pay the wages of war. But we ought not – we will not – travel down that hellish path blindly. Nor should we allow those who would march off and pay the ultimate sacrifice, who would prove the full measure of devotion with their blood, to make such an awful sacrifice in vain.
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IndianaJones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. as Kucinich says...a vote to fund is a vote to authorize. nt.
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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. I guess thats why...
Kucinich asked his voters to make Obama their second choice in Iowa. :eyes:
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Levgreee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
6. This is Obama's stance, put very simply
Edited on Fri Feb-01-08 10:31 PM by Levgreee
1.He was ALWAYS against the war, he always thought it was the wrong choice to go in. He thought it was wrong in 2002, in 2004, and in 2007.

2.He was NOT ALWAYS against supporting the war. Once the invasion had occurred and couldn't be undone, he was for funding the troops, and he was for keeping peace and giving time for the Iraqis to sort things out.

2. is not contradictory with 1..

Here is a quote...

"Us rushing headlong into a war unilaterally was a mistake and may still be a mistake...
IF it has happened, then at that point what the debate's really gonna be about is what is our long term commitment is there. How much is is it going to cost, what does it mean for us to rebuild Iraq, how do we stabilize and make sure that this country doesn't splinter into factions between the Shi'as, and the Kurds, and the Sunnis." - Barack Obama

This quote clearly explains his view. Rushing into the war was wrong. HOWEVER, once we were there, we had a responsibility to help rebuild the country, which means funding the war. So Obama was always against the war occurring, but considered it a poor choice to pull funding/pull out, for some time, after we invaded. After we had gave them time, Barack supported a phase withdrawal.


Same stance as Dean, same stance as Biden also I believe.


The people that think there is only a YES or NO option, for one issue, are silly.
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IndianaJones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. so, why did he vote against funding later? was his support a mistake? nt.
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maximusveritas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Same stance as every anti-war Senator
Feingold, Kennedy, Boxer. They all had that same position.
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maximusveritas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
8. What are you talking about? He didn't make a mistake.
He voted for funding because he didn't think we should run away right after we broke Iraq. That's the same reason everyone else in the Senate voted for funding. They gave it some time and then some like Obama realized that our presence was making things worse, so some like Obama decided to vote against it.

I also think it's odd for a Hillary supporter to criticize Obama for doing exactly what Hillary did as far as funding. What's the argument? That Clinton's made many mistakes, but Obama's made some too. It's just stupid.
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IndianaJones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Obama has made mistakes on the war...I'm glad to see an admission. Clinton has too. nt.
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maximusveritas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. But Clinton made the biggest one - voting for the IWR
This game you play of equating all these votes just doesn't work. The IWR was THE vote that started everything. After that, it was just making the best of a horrible situation.
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IndianaJones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. so it was wise to continue funding the war? nt.
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CyberPieHole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
9. Yes. Obama can say one thing, do another and lie about it all in the same day.
:kick: and recommend
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IndianaJones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. see how his supporters dance around his war funding as "for the troops"
yet Pelosi and Reid are lynched for this position.
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CyberPieHole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #17
31. If Obama gets the nod, the repubs will run circles around him...
It'll be bloody but, alas, it won't be fun to watch.
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riverwalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
20. no comparison
Thats like the fire department refusing to put out your house fire because you used bad judgement when you used the BBQ in the living room.
The troops were there (thanks to Hillary) not to fund would be to appear desert them.
Obama didn't put the BBQ in the living room, Hillary did.
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Smarmie Doofus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #20
34. Well put. nt
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
22. Like charity...perhaps "change" starts at home...
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
28. Please provide a link to Obama saying voting for the funding was a mistake.
Thanks!
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. waiting. nt
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. Still waiting. nt
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