The top two reasons I oppose Hillary in the primaries.

[usregimechange]

1). Levin Amendment/IWR vote. I don't need to say anything else.

2). Mandated health insurance. I fundamentally disagree that the people should be coerced in anyway by the government in the choices they make. I think it is authoritarian and paternalistic.

"The only part of conduct of any one, for which he is amenable to society, is that which concerns others. In the part, which merely concerns himself, his independence is, of right, absolute. Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign." -John Stuart Mill's On Liberty

Tell me why I am wrong.

[SmellsLikeDeanSpirit]

1. I didn't like Hillary's health care position for that very reason.

[aquart]

2. Don't be silly. Please yourself.

You seem completely satisfied with your reasons. Enjoy them. This vote is about what YOU want. In November it's what the Democrats want.

[usregimechange]

4. Just speaking my mind because I do care about the results.

[sandnsea]

3. It's political suicide

I suspect Edwards knew that too because his plan didn't call for mandates until after the entire plan was implemented and working correctly. That's the way to get it done.

[usregimechange]

5. His was more reasonable...

[usregimechange]

6. Anyone? I would be willing to listen, I may be wrong...

[scheming daemons]

7. Top reason for me...

She's the only candidate... in either party... with the ability to unite the GOP for the general election.

[usregimechange]

8. That is my # 3, good point.

[thunder rising]

13. And split the Democratic Party between her and Howard Dean at the same time

[Maven]

9. You are wrong about mandates for the reasons Krugman (I know, Obama enemy #1)

has laid out.

Without requiring everyone to participate, you run into free rider problems that will make the system economically unfeasible.

[usregimechange]

11. Are there other ways to handle this besides squelching liberties?

Might we also, at the very least, make health care affordable first?

[Maven]

17. Her plan is designed to push costs down

like Edwards' plan, by forcing private insurers to compete against a public plan. In fact, this is one of the very reasons why it's important to maintain cost efficiencies by requiring everyone to participate. In addition, Clinton's plan has a specific provision that would limit premiums to a percentage of people's income via tax credits. The tax breaks would be paid for by reversing Bush's tax plan favoring high-income individuals.

[usregimechange]

19. I guess I just don't believe that "cost efficiencies" are more important than individual liberties

That is my choice not the governments. By all means encourage them, make it affordable and the vast majority will have it but don't force them, esp before it is affordable.

[Maven]

20. Most people wouldn't see single-payer as an "individual liberties" issue

even though everyone is covered whether they opt in or not. And everyone pays for it through income taxes, whether they opt in or not.

Same principle. Everyone has to participate in order for the system to work for everyone.

People think of "mandates" as fundamentally different than single payer when in fact under single payer systems everyone is essentially "forced" to pay into the system.

Clinton and Edwards' plans basically get us further toward single-payer by circumventing a lot of the objections people have to such systems, i.e., that they eliminate choice or that they raise taxes too high. What the "mandate" really amounts to is an additional "tax" being levied on those who can afford to pay it, since those who can't afford it get tax breaks. That should be your first clue as to what's really going on with their plans.

[usregimechange]

22. Good points but single payer as I understand it would not force individuals to buy coverage

First, I am afraid that like car insurance mandates people will not be able to afford it. If we could make it affordable first, like Edwards, plan it would be better. My tax credits require me to work for a year and do my taxes, why not wait for the assistance before the mandate? Second, single payer would cover everyone not force people to buy it themselves, I think there is a significant difference in terms of protecting liberty and economic health.

[Maven]

23. But they are forced to buy coverage, pretty basically

They pay for it in income taxes, which are obviously progressive but mandatory. Essentially Clinton and Edwards' plans do the same thing, but they account for people's means by paying people their premiums back in tax rebates proportional to their incomes.

What is it you see in Edwards' plan that you don't see in Clinton's plan vis-a-vis making premiums more affordable? In essence Edwards proposes the same thing as Clinton, i.e., make private insurers compete against a public plan to drive costs down, subsidize individuals who can't afford premiums and eliminate free-rider problems that drive costs up by requiring all to participate.

By the way, here's a part of Clinton's plan that might be easily overlooked:

Limit Premium Payments to a Percentage of Income: The refundable tax credit will be designed to prevent premiums from exceeding a percentage of family income, while maintaining consumer price consciousness in choosing health plans.

In other words, her plan won't simply allow insurers to keep premiums high and let the government pick up the tab. Even though the government will basically subsidize premiums based on income, there will still be price differences such that private insurers have to compete with the public plan to keep premiums down. This is how market forces will be used against private insurers to make coverage more affordable.

[usregimechange]

24. Poor folks don't pay taxes in the end but they would have to buy insurance under her plan

[Maven]

25. No they wouldn't - that's where Medicaid and SCHIP come in.

Her plan addresses Medicaid and seeks to improve quality of care and strengthen its solvency. She also intends to broaden the coverage of Medicaid by, for example, eliminating the exclusion of certain low-income, childless adults.

Believe me, they've thought of these things. The plan, frankly, reflects that. My guess is that these changes would be implemented over time, by members of an agency appointed by the Executive to handle the logistical details.

[usregimechange]

28. I will look closer at it but I still want all exclusions handled first

and thank you for this thoughtful and informed discussion!

[Maven]

29. Likewise!

:toast:

[usregimechange]

10. Where are the Clinton supporters when you need them?

I would actually like some counterpoints because I would like to enthusiastically support our nominee, if it be her.

[thunder rising]

12. Hillary likes to use the work "conversation" but Barack is actually able to have one

and if he seems a little "right" now and then it's about stopping the fighting.

I will not enable Hillary to fire Howard Dean. And hence I will never vote for her ... and I will vote.

[sandnsea]

15. Her mandate is actually a perfect example

She shoves this idea on the public and is absolutely tone deaf to what the people who need it have to say about it. If you dare go against Hillary, you're just a hater who is part of the VRWC. :crazy:

[lvx35]

14. I'll tell why you're wrong in two words:

Shit Happens.

The thing is, you can take the healthiest guy in the world, who opts out of health insurance. What happens when he gets in a car accident and needs life saving surgery that costs 30 grand which he doesn't have laying around? One of two things happens: The doctors let him die, or he ends up in debt for life which as a cripple he can't pay, or the third choice, which is taxpayers eating the bill. The third happens all the time.

The right way is a universal mandate with subsidies to cover the poor because it prevents this from ever happening.

[usregimechange]

16. 1, might you make it affordable first, and 2, are there other ways besdies

taking away liberties? Our GOP legislature passed a mandate on car insurance and it made the problem worse, plus it takes choices from the people, where I think they belong, save the immediate safety of the public.

[lvx35]

21. Well you can make it affordable first, and Obama's plan moves us forward. But the question remains:

What do you do about that guy? The thing about most liberties is that they don't have to be subsidized by other people...Yet if we don't do that here, we are having a conversation about euthanasia, the right to die - and the doctors can't allow that, it violates their oath. They HAVE to treat him, so who pays for it? If its the taxpayers, you've got to admit that seems a little unfair...we all agree here that we need to sacrifice a little to make sure those who can't afford healthcare can get it, but to have all of us pay for somebody who could have afforded it all along but chose not to???

[Maven]

18. Exactly.

You explained it perfectly.

But the punchline, of course, is that taxpayers eat the bill and the entire program becomes economically untenable.

[cooolandrew]

26. Yes, if the plan is any good people will sign up for it than have to be pushed. It's granting ...

... Americans with no decision making abilities. Now I know some are uninformed but that doesn't mean to say they can't make choice really.

[Maven]

27. The plan gives people several different choices for coverage

including staying with the coverage they already have.

The only "choice" being eliminated is the choice not to have coverage at all, and to use the ER as a primary care provider.

[Hoof Hearted]

30. I fundamentally disagree that the people should be coerced in anyway by the government in the choice

I fundamentally disagree that the people should be coerced in anyway by the government in the choices they make.

You are "coerced" every day in a thousand choices you make in ways that are designed for the benefit and order of a larger good. Each time you obey a stop sign, when you pay your sales tax at the drive-thru window, when you put your trash can out on the curb instead of dumping it in a pile on the street, when you fill out a new W-4 at work, when you repair your broken tail-light..........

There is a running theme for all of these kinds of systems, and that is that they don't really work unless everyone participates, and so it is with healthcare.

[usregimechange]

31. Life and home insurance next?