It's very much about Iraq.

[madfloridian]

Someone in another thread just now said that a lot of the Obama vote is being against Hillary. I don't think so. That is a misinterpration by the people who frequently use the word Hillary-haters.

We voted for Obama here, but I don't think it was against Hillary as a person. It was about the fact that we saw things were not going to change if we didn't. Granted, they may not change no matter who wins. Just like in November...our high hopes. Yet Bush is still getting his agenda.

So much of it is about Iraq. It might be what really gives Obama the impetus to win the nomination. That is not all of it, but it is a huge part. Obama has the money, the organization, the financial backers that Howard Dean did not have in 2004. Dean went against the establishment, and he lost because of it....without a structure behind him....he came onto the national scene as a person who was about change. Obama is running a strong campaign with more tones of unity, just as Dean is doing now as chairman.

I don't think the enormity of what our country did has sunk into some Democrats, including Hillary.

We invaded a foreign country that had never harmed us, and was not planning to harm us. We killed by most accounts at least a million of their civilians...though we may never know the actual number. With the air wars going on now to finish the job we started....numbers are probably rising every day.

We are occupiers. We are controlling their government. We invaded them, killed them, and are ruling them. We killed their leader and his sons. No one even seems to think much about that anymore. America should not do things like that.

Yet most of the ones who voted for the needless invasion, knowing there would be much dying and distruction, knowing there was no real threat....are not that regretful of their decision. That is a lot of the problem right now.

Our party is not talking about it that much. Not even people I expected would speak up. There is mostly silence on it. Obama's statement in the debate about having to change the "mindset" that got us there was impressive. Hillary's explanation of her vote was sad.

That "mindset" is empire, control of the natural resources in other countries.

Now that we have done that in one country, invaded and occupied, who will be next? No one is talking about it.

Iraq is not won, it is not over, people are still dying. It is not going to conveniently go away for any of our candidates, or for any of our party leaders. It is in the room, and we must talk about it in public.

We voted for Obama not because we are "Hillary-haters"...(I hate that term and wonder where it started)....but because we believe Obama is the better of the two.

And yes, Iraq played a huge role in our vote.

[arewenotdemo]

1. Nicely stated!

:kick:

[madfloridian]

2. It's hard to not hear much about Iraq anymore.

Like they are trying to get it off the radar so we will forget. But we won't.

[ErnestoG]

8. Oh they are FEVERISHLY trying

which says a ton to me about their morals. Sick.

[ClassWarrior]

12. The fools don't realize that the parents and spouses and kids of dead soldiers...

...don't forget.

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

18. .

[madfloridian]

21. No, they will not forget.

They deserve better than that...

[lligrd]

3. Exactly, Many Of Us Begged Her And Others To Listen

to reason but they wouldn't. Iraq is not only not won but is driving us to a depression. Heck, we have even lost Afghanistan just as Bin Laden predicted. We and our children will be paying for "their" mistakes for a long time, if we manage to survive at all. I find that hard to forgive and forget.

Not that I necessarily believe that Obama wouldn't have voted the same if he had been a Senator at the time but at least I know he wasn't responsible.

[madfloridian]

4. I remember the day we started bombing them.

March 20, 2003. I had to turn off the TV as it was so unbearable.

[lligrd]

5. I Remember That Too

and did the same.

[arewenotdemo]

10. I really believe he would have voted "no".

[ErnestoG]

6. Well done.

[mmonk]

7. Bingo.

[calmblueocean]

9. You said it perfectly.

And, god damn, it feels good to hear someone actually condemning this war as a bad thing. Iraq is huge to me, and it's hard for me to understand how people don't see that.

[madfloridian]

11. It is being played down on purpose. It is the enormity of what we did.

No one wants to talk about it.

[calmblueocean]

13. It's like a giant blind spot.

I posted this poll a little while ago asking DUers which was worse: Obama's Rezko deal, or Hillary's IWR mistake:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4345489&mesg_id=4345489

I don't put a lot of stock in DU polls, but honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to get the same sort of answer from any large group of Americans. Hundreds of thousands of people are killed because of our government, and even some of the best of us can hardly give a shit. I think most Hillary voters are good people, but their inability to acknowledge the enormity of the death and destruction she helped enable is mindblowing to me.

[lligrd]

16. No Photos Of Coffins Alone Should Have Outraged Americans

And we pretend that Afghanistan was won long ago. I am really still amazed by the lack of morality and foresight that we Americans have shown.

[lligrd]

14. Agreed And Almost Sickening To Hear Them

trying to validate their votes by pointing to the evidence that was so obviously ridiculous.

[madfloridian]

20. It is huge. It is worse because we pretend it did not happen.

Or that it is over. That is a terrible thing to do.

[FrenchieCat]

15. Damn!

Me and Mad finally agree on something!

That Obama sure is a Uniter! :pals:

[andyrowe]

17. Well said.

:toast:

[Carolina]

19. K&R

I totally agree!

[PassingFair]

22. I believe he would have voted NO.

He certainly was SAYING NO at the time.

The party money and machinery is mostly behind Hillary.

I hope that she at LEAST gets a scare from people who
remember her war vote.

She and the others who authorized it deserve to
pay a price. They really do.

[madfloridian]

23. I like your Nancy Skinner sig line.

I wish her the best of luck. :hi:

[PassingFair]

27. She is #1 in the DFA All-Star Contest, Mad...

Please go and vote for her, if you haven't already.
I think you can vote once a day.

Here's a little video you might like:

6 months after the invasion, BOTH Barack and Skinner
were still very outspoken about their opposition:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BP8dOzG8cIo

[madfloridian]

29. I did vote for her.

I am still on a mailing list from her last campaign, I guess. Anyway I did. Best of luck.

[Tatiana]

24. He would have voted with Durbin, as they are closely aligned on most of the issues.

And Durbin, of course, voted no. He'd spoken extensively with Durbin before giving his anti-war speech, so I really believed if he had been in the Senate, he would have voted against the IWR.

[sandnsea]

25. It is the "mindset" that led to that war

That's exactly right. Hillary does not have a different mindset and that is seen with her adherance to bluster over discussion and her support of Kyl-Lieberman. Everything she has said since 2002 indicates she supported this war much more than she is trying to pretend now.

[madfloridian]

31. Too many supported that invasion and occupation...which is what it was.

They knew it, too. We knew it. They had to have known it. Bill and Hillary were in the WH while bombing was going on in Iraq as late as 1999, maybe even later. How could they be a danger? We had been bombing them for over 11 years!

It boggles my mind that some Democrats still think we accept that talk.

[sab3rX]

26. I'm not going to sweep the IWR under the carpet...

If it comes down to Obama and Clinton being alike on all the issues (which they do not), well, all I can say is that one of them voted for the IWR while another spoke out against it.

[PassingFair]

28. That's exactly how I feel.

Although I've posted it before:

Re: The Iraq War

Obama is the "default" candidate.

We may not be able to know 100% how he would have
voted had he been in the senate that day, but everything
he has said before and after indicates he would have voted
no. His subsequent funding of troops that votes like Hillary's
put into harm's way is NOT the same thing as voting YEA
on the initial INVASION.

Not. At. All.

Hillary is clearly the "fault" candidate.

[unkachuck]

30. Amen