From kos: Why I can't vote for Hillary: My deeply personal Clinton story

[cali]

(edited for copyright purposes-proud patriot Moderator Democratic Underground)


by Hudson
Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 08:55:23 PM PST

When it comes to Hillary Clinton, there is no shortage of unfair and unprincipled reasons for disliking her -- and if you listen to AM talk radio for an hour, you'll probably hear them all.

I reject the sexism of those who still think a former First Lady has no place in policy debates, just as I reject the absurd theories of those who think she had a hand in the death of her close friend Vince Foster.

Having volunteered on Clinton's first senate campaign, I get mad when I hear Rush Limbaugh savage her as a liar and an opportunist. I'm also grateful to her for keeping Rudy Guiliani and Rick Lazio out of the Senate.

But you don't have to be a sexist or a conspiracy theorist to oppose Clinton's candidacy.

I don't dislike Hillary; I distrust her. And my reasons are both substantive, and based on direct personal experience.

When a major issue hit the area where I live, New York's Hudson Valley, Clinton was less than honest with her constituents, and all too eager to take credit where none was due.


http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/2/1/234527/0014/392/448115

[mia]

1. Sorry to be reading this about Clinton - she was my second choice.

Now I'm not so sure.

[cali]

2. Here in Vermont we have a similar story

In NY, there was a push to burn tires for energy on a huge scale. Even my repug guv is strongly against it. We're downwind from the plant across Lake Champlain. Clinton has supported it.

[MelissaB]

6. These are both interesting stories.

I've been riding the fence since Edwards withdrew and this my make my decision easier.

[neutron]

61. Kos doesn't have Credibility these days

They've lost an enormous following. Mainly from all of the
misinformation, mafioso strongarming, and dumbed down articles.

[MH1]

63. This came from an independent poster at dailykos, not Kos himself.

[yessir]

75. Yeah, nobody trusts her character n/t

[George II]

110. Then the heading is as phony as the whole premise of the post.

[Hutzpa]

73. Thats a 'Fucked' up lie, and you know it n/t

[ugdude]

141. Wow, the OP is so revealing n/t

[DebraK]

272. no lies, just truths.

[DebraK]

273. kick

[yessir]

81. It was from an independant trustworthy poster

Not from Kos, perhaps you should read the article HRC supporter.

[emilyg]

101. What makes this poster trustworthy?

[DebraK]

266. they are part of the national environmentalists board

[George II]

185. Perhaps that "trustworthy" poster shouldn't have used such a dishonest headline

i.e., "from kos"

[JFKgirl]

229. that was the op who added the from kos, not the poster who wrote his/her experience which was posted

on kos

[George II]

231. That's the poster I'm talking about..

the one who posted here. His/her subject was totally inappropriate and misleading, implying that it was KOS who posted it - which is not true.

[DebraK]

270. No it wasn't

[DebraK]

271. Kick.

[Cooley Hurd]

311. Um, I think we all know what "Daily Kos" is...

...and that Markos ISN'T the only contributor.:eyes:

[moodforaday]

85. You forgot to add

You forgot to add that it's an "old story". Mustn't forget it, it's a major, major Bushie talking point, and it works wonders!

[DebraK]

260. Actually it's very recent

[debbierlus]

99. I don't trust Hillary & I REALLY don't trust Obama

The corporate media darling?

'Nough Said.

[George II]

113. Doesn't leave much, does it?

[ooglymoogly]

126. That is just the way the pug media planned it.

By hyping these two candidates they have given us our least viable candidates, candidates they believe they can beat or at least keep in the margin of error so they can flip the election if the machines cant pull it off. They will then turn on whichever of these two is chosen like rattlesnakes. The two that they feared most have been handily eliminated by pretending they did not exist. I will vote for Edwards anyway even if I have to write it in...in the primary.

[ForRusty]

146. I think their popularity planted themselves. Not the media. Grow. Up.

[ooglymoogly]

221. Have some more kool-aid and go back to sleep

Try the cherry-propaganda it is mesmerizing and especially formulated for the dull of wit.

[DebraK]

274. No cool-aid. Just truth, something Hillary doesn't have.

[DebraK]

275. kick

[Bostonglobechicka]

249. right on

[ugdude]

157. Hillary has no credibility either

[DebraK]

278. Ye s it does

[neutron]

180. BREAKING: NYT: Obama Compomises Nuclear Leak Bill

Nuclear Leaks and Response Tested Obama in Senate

Published: February 3, 2008
When residents in Illinois voiced outrage two years ago upon learning that the Exelon Corporation had not disclosed radioactive leaks at one of its nuclear plants, the state’s freshman senator, Barack Obama, took up their cause. <snip>
He has boasted of it on the campaign trail, telling a crowd in Iowa in December that it was “the only nuclear legislation that I’ve passed.”
A close look at the path his legislation took tells a very different story. While he initially fought to advance his bill, even holding up a presidential nomination to try to force a hearing on it, Mr. Obama eventually rewrote it to reflect changes sought by Senate Republicans, Exelon and nuclear regulators. The new bill removed language mandating prompt reporting and simply offered guidance to regulators, whom it charged with addressing the issue of unreported leaks.
Those revisions propelled the bill through a crucial committee. But, contrary to Mr. Obama’s comments in Iowa, it ultimately died amid parliamentary wrangling in the full Senate.
“Senator Obama’s staff was sending us copies of the bill to review, and we could see it weakening with each successive draft,” said Joe Cosgrove, a park district director in Will County, Ill., where low-level radioactive runoff had turned up in groundwater. “The teeth were just taken out of it.” <snip>
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/03/us/politics/03exelon.html?em&ex=1202101200&en=f2853a7f59384438&ei=5087%0A

[DebraK]

256. Hillary cosponsered that bill. Lol, you cant be serious with this drivel

[water]

102. Burning TIRES? These people have no repect for anyone's property or health!

[ugdude]

170. So true. She even steals Obama's phrases. Credit-taker

[madeline_con]

144. A link on Grist...

Hillary's poisonous NH cloud
Clinton lobbied for tire burning near Granite State
Posted by Glenn Hurowitz at 10:02 AM on 07 Jan 2008

http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2008/1/6/101959/1284

[ugdude]

173. She voted to poison the air? I thought she was an environmentalist /sarcasm

[DebraK]

267. She also claims to be anti-war once it becomes popular to be anti-war. She has no real positions

herself

[NashVegas]

313. Misleading

She sent a letter asking the state to allow IP to go ahead with a test. The test failed. No further involvement.

[ugdude]

155. Hillary is a very shifty individual n/t

[JFKgirl]

225. I have also heard similar stories

[Bostonglobechicka]

247. this is very shocking to me, seriously suprised

[ClericJohnPreston]

226. Yeah

I want to make a decision about someone from one story, not fact checked. That makes sense......to an Obamite cultist.

[DebraK]

268. It is fact checked. Read the rest of the article

[DebraK]

269. kick!!!

[Dems Will Win]

40. Also in the Catskills, Clinton is supporting the right of out of state Indian TRibes

to build casinos!

http://www.empireresorts.com/index.php?id=44#c145

http://www.empireresorts.com/index.php?id=44


Clinton is for Casinos in the Catskills and Obama is Against the Expansion of Gambling



Senator Clinton has long supported developer efforts to put Indian gaming casinos in the Catskills. Nevada-based Empire Resorts, which wants to operate a Sullivan County casino in partnership with the out-of-state St. Regis Mohawk Tribe, lists Hillary as a supporter of Catskill gambling on their Web site. The casino was rejected by Interior, but the St. Regis tribe has brought a lawsuit against the Secretary of the Interior for Abuse of Office to attempt to overturn the decision. Clinton's name is listed here on the Empire Resort Web site:



http://www.empireresorts.com/index.php?id=44#c145



Clinton has said that casinos are an "economic development tool" and said that "for many places in the country, it seems to be an important part of what they are trying to do to revive and maintain an economic base." In her first campaign for Senate, Hillary supported Indian gaming in the Catskills and Upstate.

When asked by the LA Times on January 18th about the social costs of gambling, Clinton replied, "Any human activity has social costs, really," she said, adding later: "Life is filled with trade-offs, and you have to do the best you can to balance the pluses and the minuses."
Mrs. Clinton’s big gaming industry fundraisers include the senior executives of Harrahs, Jan Jones and Philip Satre.

In contrast, Senator Obama has never been in favor of the expansion of gambling, saying that the "moral and social cost of gambling, particularly in low-income communities, could be devastating." And, with casinos, "you'll have a whole bunch of people who can't afford it gambling their money away, yet they're going to do it." As a State Senator, Obama has opposed expanding all gambling projects in Illinois, although he does not oppose all gambling, such as in Nevada.


"There's a fundamental question here," said the Rev. Tom Grey, executive director of the National Coalition Against Legalized Gambling. "Until this point, Obama's statements seemed to suggest that he did not buy into the industry arguments that this is a product like golf or Starbucks that should just go on Main Street. And Hillary, by attacking him, seems to have come down clearly on the side of the industry that this is economic development." (LA TIMES - "Clinton Plays Gaming Card against Obama" Jan 18 2008)

ALSO FROM THE LA TIMES:

"Satre, former chairman and chief executive of Harrah's Entertainment, said he too would help raise money for Clinton. Obama, he said in an interview, "doesn't think gambling should expand. He thinks gambling has a moral and social corruption attached to it."

[ursi]

78. what a piece of work!!!

[yessir]

79. Exactly, HRC lies, deceives and cheats

She stole credit from hard workers.

[Dr.Phool]

122. Maybe Mark Penn was representing the cement company.

And the casinos.

[ugdude]

156. She surrounds herself with shady individuals because she is shady

[ugdude]

148. True n/t

[JFKgirl]

228. yep.

[JFKgirl]

236. tell me more about this

[Bostonglobechicka]

248. woah

[Girlieman]

3. there isn't a politician in the world who won't sell you down the river

if necessary.

That's just the way it is. Doesn't mean I make excuses for Clinton, I'm just not so sure any of the others are that much different. Kucinich maybe, but he never got over a few percent at best.

The real story is to know why she found it necessary. Now THAT would be interesting.

[MH1]

4. I suspect it is the taking credit part that sets this incident apart (a little)

I agree with your cynicism to some extent but I think that there are differences in degree. I don't think every politician in that situation would have held the issue at arm's length and then claimed credit for it. But I don't think Hillary is the only one who would.

Another classic "this is who Hillary Clinton is" moment came when she backstabbed John Kerry on 10/31/2006. Until that time I had been seriously considering getting behind her. But when someone that high profile behaves that badly, with obvious personal gain to be had - when others at more risk are showing courage - it's hard to trust that person in anything important ever again.

[cali]

5. Really? Neither of my Senators has done that.

Pat Leahy has been in the Senate for 34 years and he has yet to sell Vermonters of other Americans down the river. Bernie Sanders has only been there a year, but was in the House for well over a decade. He hasn't either. Come to think of it, neither did Jim Jeffords. And Peter Welch, our new Rep was in VT politics for years. No selling down the river from him either.

[MH1]

58. You have good Senators

but also Vermont seems like an intellectual and liberal state.

I don't trust Arlen Specter as far as I can throw him. I think Casey tries to do better but so far I am not fully convinced. PA has a tough set of conflicting demographics.

I think there are guys like Leahy, Sanders, and Kerry in the Senate that we can all be proud of...and of course a few others... but there are a lot more, I am afraid, whose actions support the poster's cynicism.

It's still no excuse for Hillary's behavior.

[druidity33]

88. well

I'd love it if Leahy saw fit to investigate/close Vermont Yankee. The place has seen too many mishaps and failings. Everyone here in Western MA (Reps and Sens) has spoken out loudly against it, but it's NOT IN OUR STATE. I respect Leahy... but he is chock full of bluff and bluster.

:shrug:

[JFKgirl]

234. true, hillary is also full of shit

[JFKgirl]

235. Very true, your senator sounds great

[yessir]

77. Hillary seems to be very underhanded

This article proves it.

[JFKgirl]

230. she would sell anybody to get power.

[formernaderite]

7. this is emblematic of why

a lot of us don't trust her. Everything for political expediency. I think it's time for some fresh blood.

[MH1]

8. "cold and calculating" is not a myth

at least stories like this and the Kerry incident give strong support that she is as calculating as they come.

[suziedemocrat]

16. What is the Kerry incident?

[MH1]

31. In late October 2006

Kerry, who had been touring the country at an incredible pace stumping for Democratic candidates, muffed a line at a speech he was giving for LA mayoral candidate Antonio Villaraigosa. (Kerry was exhausted, you can tell by the video, but he did f--- up.)

The right wing pounced and tried to claim that Kerry "insulted the troops" when in fact the press had a copy of "remarks as prepared" that showed clearly it was a joke about Bush.

Anyway, the right wing smear was so effective that Kerry backed off campaigning with candidates for the last few days of the campaign. Yet, candidates like Bob Casey and Joe Sestak said supportive things about Kerry and basically backed him up.

Hillary was asked about it and said "his remark was inappropriate" - lending air to the right wing smear (and at least one more 24 hour news cycle).

It's well-described here:

For many in Kerry's orbit, the final straw came in 2006, after the senator mangled a joke about lousy students getting "stuck in Iraq." (Kerry had intended to needle Bush for "getting us stuck in a war in Iraq.") The fallout helped dash Kerry's hopes of another White House run. In the minds of his supporters, that's precisely what Hillary Clinton intended when she piled on two days later, calling the comment "inappropriate." "A lot of us were rip-shit pissed off at Hillary for putting her boot on his neck," says one dedicated fund-raiser. Once Kerry officially bowed out, several of his most loyal money men decamped for team Obama.

http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=4d59656c-ac34-4e87-9fe9-9ae37b2e2653&p=1

[MH1]

32. Forgot to add

Kerry has a great record on military and veterans issues. The high road would have been for Clinton to mention that and point out that this was just more right wing bullshit smearing from the same people that smeared her and Bill.

Or, she could have wimped out neutrally and said "no comment."

She chose to stick the knife in.

[Habibi]

103. I remember that too

I was seriously disappointed in Clinton for her uncalled for diss of Kerry. Did she even have clue what she was talking about, or what Kerry was talking about?

[suziedemocrat]

48. I remeber that - what Kerry said was true.

I know it is unthinkable for a politician to approach the truth, but really. Even Michael Moore in Fahrenheit 9/11 , shows how the army recruiters focus on the poor and uneducated.

[MH1]

52. It was actually true that failing at school might leave Iraq the only option

but

a) that is NOT what his script said and not what he intended - he was ragging on Bush not having an exit strategy for Iraq.

b) the right wing spun it as "Kerry said if you are serving in Iraq you are stupid!!!" which of course isn't even what he did say if you ignore the context that he was talking about Bush at the time.

Regardless, there was no excuse for Hillary's statement. NO EXCUSE.

Oh wait, I guess there is - "integrity doesn't matter in politics."

[HonestyIsAVirtue]

56. Exactly, she voted for the war. Millions are dead because of it

NO EXCUSE AT ALL.

[MH1]

60. Yes, but that isn't what the subthread is about.

Plenty of people agree with you about the IWR, but many don't.

My point is that there are LOTS of issues with Hillary and pounding the same one over and over does not necessarily help.

Many other Senators voted for IWR - including Kerry - but most have expressed regret. The difference is that Clinton still tries to defend it.

And to be fair, Obama wasn't in the Senate, and didn't have to actually vote. I think his speech was courageous, but the pressure would have been totally different if he was in the Senate.

I suggest you focus on many differentiators, not just the IWR. imo.

[George II]

215. Pssst....Kerry voted for the war, too!

MANY Democrats were tricked into voting for the war by the bush administration's lies.

[ugdude]

189. Yeah, I remember that aswell n/t

[JFKgirl]

224. I agree

[yessir]

86. She fucked over Kerry

Why should we support her?

[Recursion]

147. Not to mention her backstab in '04

When she was one of the troika that talked Kerry out of demanding an Ohio recount. Maybe she thought it would be bad for the party. Or maybe she wanted to run in '08. Either way it pissed a lot of us off.

[ugdude]

190. She did it for political expediency. She never cared about the party

[George II]

213. A one-liner during an interview is now elevated to be "the Kerry Incident"?

HAHAHA, really stretching now, aren't we?

[arewenotdemo]

90. Where's that "Business Loves Hillary" Fortune cover pic when you really need it?

That is one scary photo.

[ingac70]

121. Here's that pic...

[arewenotdemo]

124. yep, that's the one

:scared: :scared: :scared:

[pauldg0]

132. Unemployed in Michigan..

. Going back to the Republican side.
. Loved John Edwards.
. Want my Engineering job back.
. Looking for a liberal Republican now.
. I'm confused.
. Now no choices in the Democratic party.
. So long John Edwards...I'll Miss you and remember you for your passion that no-one saw.
. Because of our communist press that blocked you.................
. I am sure there are thousands of lower management types like me out of work that are going back too.

Bye!!

[MH1]

181. "looking for a liberal Republican"?

There are no liberal Republicans running for President.

Your choice on that ticket will be McCain, Romney, or Huckabee. Romney once faked being a liberal, but he's been sure to disavow those words completely (and he will lose the primary in the state he "governed" - what does that tell you?)

The R nominee will most likely be McCain. Think he's a moderate? Read this:

http://www.thetalentshow.org/2005/06/02/scientific-proof-that-john-mccain-sucks/

(note: please read the update at the bottom, the LCV scores are misleading as presented.)

Now I am wondering, if you were an Edwards supporter, what it is that would draw you back to the Republican party in the first place? What did Edwards have in common with the republicans?

[pauldg0]

237. Here is why I'm interested in him...

..by the way I'm really sticking with him...I was just in a bad mood yesterday.

To answer your question. I feel there are a lot of Republicans, like myself, especially in Michigan where a lot of our jobs have gone over to India, china, mexico, etc.

I have been unemployed/underemployed for about four years. I have no insurance. All my neighbors are losing their homes. I am barely hanging on.

Imagine...I was raised by a tunnel vision Republican banker, but I chose to start on the assembly line at Chrysler Corporation when I was young instead of going into business with my dad. I worked hard and learned not only about the machine shop and assembly lines but also learned to understand what hard working people go through, getting laid off throughout their working lives.

So, as you can see, I developed a human objective side that my father never had. He worked in a bank all his life. It's very hard to bring up politics in his household.

As an engineer, which is basically a lower end manager, I had great wages and benefits with the auto industry...and basically driven by union scale wages. Most lower end managers/engineers are republicans because they support the company. So you see, a Republican in Michigan is different because we have no where to go. John Edwards is saying the right thing for us, sounds strange?

Hope I didn't get carried away with all this, but that is my story in a nutshell. Oh, also I must tell you this. I am sixty years old and that makes it worse.

So, that is what Edwards has in common with republicans like us....unemployed republicans who see the light. He's the only candidate on either side that has important things to say and not only that he's the only one who states how he would do it. I still like him and I can't vote for the other two...sorry.

By the way, I am not a infiltrating republican trying to change everybody to go republican, but it looked that way didn't it. I have been upset about what has happened to him in the last year. His candidacy has been basically raped by our most sacred treasure...our own press.

Hoped he comes back and I hope your candidate does well too!!

[ugdude]

159. Hillary will sellout the little guy to corporate big interest. She is funded by lobbyists

[americathabeautiful]

239. She is funded by federal lobbyists

[ugdude]

175. Definately not a myth. Was appalled how she made Kerry lose the election

[DebraK]

264. it definately isnt a myth. i know.

[yessir]

76. Her character is so disgusting

How can HRC supporters defend this?

[D23MIURG23]

131. They assume she won't sell us out as first principle

and view here obvious cynicism and connivances as an asset. She is "experienced" and "vetted" and "knows how to play the game". Stick around and I'm sure you'll become familiar with their brand of bullshit.

BTW, Welcome to the DU.

:hi:

[DebraK]

257. i know exactly what you mean n/t

[yessir]

83. True n/t

[AP]

9. Yeah, if you want a president who is going to shift power away from huge corporations, then support

the one who said he was going to do that, and who wouldn't have needed to move to the middle in order to stay viable, even though he has suspended his campaign.

[DebraK]

258. corporations are americas no 1 problem. too bad hillary is all for them and not for us

[Bread and Circus]

10. That's the Hillary Clinton I know.

[HonestyIsAVirtue]

62. True

She also voted for the war, ensuring thousands of deaths.

[ugdude]

158. She will sell us all out n/t

[DainBramaged]

11. I find it so sad that so many within our party

will sacrifice a vote for change (if Hillary is elected nominee) and not look at the reality of the Bush Presidency (and the future) if the Republicans are permitted to continue controlling this country. I find it sadder still that the undermining of her candidacy continues unabated throughout our small world.


If McCain (or any Republican candidate) regains the White House, all of the political and ideological purity so many here strive for will be nothing more than an exercise in futility, because our leaders (Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid) don't have the will to stop them now.


I'm going to work. At least there I won't have to read any more of this today.

[Leopolds Ghost]

12. At least that is an honest and sincere rationale for Hillary.

But what evidence do we have that she is more popular with McCain independents than Kerry? I rather doubt this.

[flpoljunkie]

13. What I find sad is that Democrats would destroy the party, lose Congress, and the White House--just

to give Hillary a chance at "her turn." We have an historic opportunity to not only expand our party but to get people involved in our government like never before with Barack Obama.

Teddy Kennedy gets it. He's worked for decades to improve the lives of the American people, and he's decided Barack Obama is the one who can deliver long overdue changes, like universal healthcare, for the American people.

Why on earth would we turn our backs on this historic opportunity?

[WillyT]

14. Word !!!

:kick:

[JNelson6563]

17. I hate to say this

but that's the way it is sometimes. You should've seen 2006 in Michigan when scAmway millionaire Dick DeVos challenged Gov. Granholm. There was absolutely no cause that was too important to throw under the bus in order to get a Granholm win. Positively sucked all the resources out of the political landscape.

It seems to be a DLC mindset. :shrug:

Julie

[UALRBSofL]

20. Democrats wont destroy the party

They just say that but once a nominee is chosen they will rally. And OP I understand your position and why you are voting for Obama. Have you ever thought what Obama stands for? For the most part it seems to me they are similar in there issues. I think it comes down to who you trust and how electable they are. The fact Obama isn't a tried and true beltway insider is a plus for him but I see him turning into one after spending a few more years there. From a state level there have been stories coming out that he is the typical politician with favors playing. Now I know this isn't on a national level but it's an indicator. That said, I can understand people wanting a fresh face and hope for change and most likely that will be the case. But I'm not going to sell myself short on the fact Obama might turn out to be just another status quo politician.

[MH1]

57. They do differ on one issue hugely important to me - open government

Barack recognizes the importance of open and transparent government. From what I've seen, Hillary is more into secret negotiation strategies, and not much into providing information to the people. (FWIW. I think "Harry and Louise" ads would have been less effective if Hillary had engaged on health care openly, rather than behind closed doors, but that is just my opinion.)

There have been a couple posts here recently, even one started by a Hillary supporter trying to spin Hillary's position positively, that sank like a stone once all the shillbots* realized that kicking those threads would only help Obama, or at least encourage substantive discussion of an issue (which appears to be highly discouraged in GD-P).

* shillbots == a certain (large) number of posters who seem to have inordinate amount of time, plus a certain strategy in gaming DU. I do not mean to disparage honest posters who honestly support Hillary.

[ugdude]

179. Hillary wants to keep everything she does a secret. I want OPEN GOVERNMENT, not deception

[Hawkowl]

97. That is THE reason to support Obama for me

I am an Edwards supporter, and still don't particularly like Obama's policy positions. However, I think the democratic party will be transformed by the people he draws to his support. Hillary will only bring corporations and their corrupt bribes, and lobbyists who will ultimately ruin this country.

My hope is that Obama, will move to the left, because he will recognize that this is the constituency which will put him in the whitehouse. Centrist, republocrat, University of Chicago elitist gibberish pandering will not make or keep him president. There aren't any "purple" states. There are only those who are deluded into voting rethuglican against their own interests.

In short, I hope that he always listens to the people over the moneyed interests destroying this country.

[DainBramaged]

104. What if the nominee IS Hillary?? Obama supporters are trying to destroy the party now

we aren't going to lose Congress, 28 Republicans are retiring before the end of the year. We can only strengthen our hold and Maybe GET SOMETHING FUCKING DONE once we have bulletproof majorities in the House and Senate.

But to work at destroying the party simply because Hillary isn't "pure" enough, maybe you should form your own party of Independents now and say in 20 years, it will be strong enough to take on the establishment.


Thanks for playing, but I will support the nominee, not my ego.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

114. er I think Bill's been busy doing that

what with the Jesse Jackson comment, and now he is going after Ted Kennedy.

The Clintons are famous for destroying anyone or anything in their path.

We've had enough of the politics of destruction.

[shaniqua6392]

117. That was well said!!

We should support our nominee when we know who it will be. Until then, we should just all settle down. United we stand, divided we fall.

[MH1]

70. Better that she isn't nominated at all.

We are going into this with eyes open.

But of course I will vote for the Dem nominee in November.

[Imagevision]

240. I believe for the good of the country that Hillary return to New York and get back to work...

[Yurovsky]

116. Undermining her candidacy???

Hillary acts in a manner that is diametrically opposed to what any progressive would feel is the right thing to do, and somebody making mention of that is "undermining her candidacy"??? Looks to me like HILLARY is undermining her candidacy, whether you're talking about this cement plant or her supporting yet another illegal war and sending our youth off to fight and die for oil companies and Haliburton.

[DainBramaged]

118. Who qualifies as a progressive? You? Me? Only if you DON'T support Hillary?

I'm tired of people who want to rip the party in two to wear the badge of a "Progressive". Progressive means progress, help not just hope. We've hoped for 8 fucking years we could get something done and all we have is a picture of Nancy Pelosi standing with her Grand kids in Congress and Harry Reid licking Bush's ass while the country goes to hell.


I hope all of you who think that Obama alone is our Saviour remember who pulls the money strings for the party, and that no matter how "Progressive" you think you may be, in the end, you have as much say in what will happen in this country as I do in influencing Bush's policies.

Zero

[bigtree]

15. She's running against a candidate(Obama) who voted for the industry Energy bill

which will multiply the damaging effects this writer claims to be so concerned about.

Hillary Clinton stepped up and voted against the bill, demonstrating that she is willing to use her position to do more than talk about the environment.

[BootinUp]

19. Oops!

Some inconvenient facts pop up.

[Maribelle]

23. In 2000, a successful organized smear campaign against Gore was a pollution problem in Tennessee

Analysts have attributed the success of this heavily-funded campaign as a prime factor in Gore losing Tennessee.

It seems that hate and smear efforts against Clinton are warming up, using the pages of DU as their gym.

[Big Blue Marble]

54. This is a powerful narrative

that effectively describes why many of us see Hillary as politically calculating at every turn.

She will do and say what ever she think will get her the most votes. I think it is sad because
if she would speak her own truth instead, I believe she would have become a powerful voice for
the left as powerful as Edward Kennedy.

The way she has played she just ends up looking politically expedient on everything from her Irag war vote
to a cement factory in New York.

[Recursion]

150. A bigger reason was the assault weapons ban

Which is something both Clinton and Obama want to renew, I suppose because they like the idea of Republicans controlling Congress

[beachmom]

127. Obama is not perfect, and has had a couple disappointing votes.

Unlike the Hillbots, I am not going to gloss over Obama's record.

But, you know, Obama didn't promise he would vote a certain way or take an action, and then blow it off or go in the opposite direction. It is clear from this story and others I have heard, that Hillary does just that. She'll tell you what you want to hear, but who knows if she means it.

Obama has a good liberal record, but he doesn't ALWAYS vote the way I like. Nevertheless, he is honest and has integrity.

[THUNDER HANDS]

18. her whole life has been like that

she'll ride the back of her husband to a high public profile, she'll move to the one state she knows would be receptive to her as a candidate, her greatest challenger drops out after contracting cancer, her next opponent is a bumbling moron who made a fatal error in stepping too close to her in a debate, she'll take hawkish foreign policy positions at odds with her own beliefs, she'll triangulate to get the best personal political result, she'll tell one group one thing, another group another thing and then when a decision comes down for one side or the other, she'll go to the winner and share their victory lap with them.

There's no there there with Clinton.

I've seen her in public life for 16 years and I still have no idea what she's really like as a person. I've seen obama for 3 and I have a better sense of who he is.

I trust her on women's rights. That's it. Because that's the one group she can't afford to sell out.

[Bread and Circus]

25. brilliant post

[ugdude]

183. Agreed

This post has opened many eyes to the truth.

[GoldieAZ49]

67. I don't even trust her on womens rights

they way she has trashed all the women that Bill has used.

The politics of personal destruction she uses against anyone, no she is no advocate for women.

[ugdude]

172. Agreed. Her stance isnt strong on womens rights n/t

[MH1]

182. Um...trust is one thing, but I don't think it's accurate to say her "stance isn't strong"

on women's right.

Care to provide evidence for your claim?

btw, your prolific posting of one-liners has been noticed.

Obama supporter here, but you ain't helping, dude or dudette.

[Vinca]

21. Your post confirms my worst suspicions about her. nt

[HonestyIsAVirtue]

64. Very true n/t

[The Backlash Cometh]

22. Thanks for the information.

It's pretty bad when they say they will help, and then they don't. But far worse when they take credit when you succeed.

[yessir]

82. Exactly, she will screw over anyone to get elected

It'll be women next. Watch, she will throw them under the bus aswell.

[DebraK]

254. hey dont i know you from topix forums?

[BootinUp]

24. Just so I understand the outrage...

Hillary didn't support this expansion of the cement company, she just didn't fight it to the degree the activists expected her too. BURN HER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Inuca]

27. You do not understand

SHe did not do something that she should have done and said she will do and then took credit for something she did not do.

And, with all due modesty, I think that my short sentence above is a pretty good summary of how Hillary functions politically in many situations.

[BootinUp]

30. This issue was a big fight as noted in the OP

There is a NYT article on it here:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C04E7D91E3BF934A15755C0A9659C8B63&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

When an issue is already as big as this one was with and with a clear means of resolving it defined already:

_____________
The fate of the project is in the hands of the New York Department of Environmental Conservation. In a letter opposing the plant in the fall, the former governor of Maine, Angus S. King Jr., reminded Gov. George E. Pataki that the two states have worked ''collaboratively for years'' on the ''transport of ozone and other pollutants across state boundaries.'' The attorney general of Connecticut, Richard Blumenthal, has also invoked the partnership with New York in the legal battle against out-of-state plants.

In the coming months, perhaps even years, administrative law judges at the state agency will make recommendations on several issues to the commissioner and final arbiter, Erin M. Crotty. Those issues range from noise levels to the effect of emissions on Olana, the nearby historic site that was home to the painter Frederic E. Church.

Planned hearings might help clarify a debate that has so far unfolded as a confusing clash. ''I don't think either side has given all the facts, and I'm against it,'' Ms. Wilde said. ''You have to weed out what you believe to be the truth. It's going to be a long fight.''

________________

I am not sure that the outraged activists even know what Hillary could have done or did. The bottom line is if someone is going to accuse her of basically lying about her involvement, it would be appropriate to get a statement from her or her campaign before making a judgement on such a claim as that made above. For all I know Hillary did what she could do (which probably wasn't much **See snip above** and this dkos writer doesn't know what the hell she is talking about.

[D23MIURG23]

133. What she couldn't even make a public statement on their behalf?

Let me remind you of a certain passage:

The rest was silence. After promptly delivering the requested memo, I was never able to get her staff (let alone the Senator herself) to discuss the issue again, let alone take action to stop the plant.

About a year later, Clinton was cornered on the SLC issue by an interviewer from The National Trust for Historic Preservation, who finally got her to say that she thought the proposal was "not the right direction for the Hudson Valley." These remarks were published in Preservation Magazine, which Clinton apparently thought no one would read... because when we then alerted local media to her statement, Clinton's staff denied the remarks and claimed she still had not taken a position.

Hillary may not have had any final say, she certainly could have clearly stated her position on the issue and stood by it.

And again:

During the award ceremony, it was announced that there would be a video tribute from someone who couldn't attend, but who wanted to pay her respects. Up on a giant screen came Hillary Clinton, talking about how we'd all fought such a good fight together.

So she can't even make a clear statement on behalf of the environmental activists, but she is justified in crediting herself?

[BootinUp]

140. There is no evidence she credited herself

in this case or please provide some.

More likely they took her out of context. She has a fine environmental record and has every right to take credit as someone who supports environmental causes.

As I have said in other posts later that you strangely are not responding to, she saw this issue was headed to defeat for the cement company and did not need to step in. There are always downsides politically to coming out against jobs in a local area in favor of environmental issues that are hotly debated.

The environment won, rejoice, and get a life too.

[MH1]

34. I think you nailed it.

[HonestyIsAVirtue]

55. Definately

K&R

[Armstead]

33. This cement plant was a really big deal -- Wasn;t a matter of "activists"

I live over the state line but not very far from the site of the proposed plant. You are grossly mischaracterizing and trivializing this, as an excuse to marginalize "the activist left."

I can't say anything about Hillary's involvement or non-involvement in this issue, or what she did or did not do behind the scenes. I do not remember Hillary being publicly involved in this in terms of giving public support to opponents (although I could have missed it).

But I can say that this would not have been throwing a bone to a few activists to oppose it.

This was not just "the expansion of the cement company." It was a massive project that would have had devestating consequences for many reasons. It was a Republican state administration that pin the nail in its coffin -- not just some whacky "activists."

One thing the post doesn't make clear is that the cement corporation spent a huge amount of money on a public relations campaign to push through the plant. They did a "Wal Mart" style campaign where they touted "jobs" as a ploy to get desperate working people to sign onto their plans, among otehr things. BUT it was also divisive within the business community, because it would have undermined other economic development plans for the area.

[BootinUp]

36. No I am not trivializing the issue of the plant

I am trivializing one activist who has decided to attack a US Senator with really unverified claims as far as I can tell. I think Hillary deserves a chance to respond to it before the Hil haters drag her through the mud.

[Armstead]

37. I do agree with you on the need for more information

Perhaps she did do some heavy duty lobbying against the plant behind the scenes. I really dunno.

But what I was objecting to is the tendency to discount such concerns as throwing bones to so-called activists as a way to disparage legitimate concerns people have about Hillary and the brand of politics she represents.

[yessir]

74. Her entire campaign is funded by lobbyists

She doesn't represent the American people at all.

[mahina]

222. Hi Yessir, welcome to DU.

I'd encourage you to avoid overgeneralization. It weakens your argument.

I'm no fan of Hill and think this story is revealing. Hillary does have a lot of individual donors, though.

[D23MIURG23]

138. Here is an update to the story that may help:

UPDATE #3, a smoking gun: I've managed to find the original documents showing how Clinton handled the Preservation Magazine interview, once it was publicized to a wider audience:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PRESERVATION MAGAZINE, MARCH/APRIL 2004 ISSUE, INTERVIEW WITH CLINTON:

Q: A large cement factory is to be built nearby . Should such a thing be allowed?

A: It would be a big step backward from what has been a return to cultural and historic preservation as an engine of economic development.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THE REGISTER-STAR , 1 MARCH 2004:

Sara Griffen, president of The Olana Partnership, said, "We are of course very pleased to have her come out and state publicly her opposition to the St. Lawrence Cement plant proposal."

"Obviously, we're thrilled to hear such words from a New York senator and major international figure," said Sam Pratt, director of Friends of Hudson. Both Friends of Hudson and The Olana Partnership are fighting against St. Lawrence's proposal through the state's environmental review and permitting process.

While Griffen's and Pratt's reactions are understandable considering the published comment they read, Clinton's press secretary, Jennifer Hanley, stressed that "the senator hasn't come out for or against the cement factory."
Thanks, everyone, for all your input...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/2/1/234527/0014/392/448115

[DebraK]

261. woah. that destroys hrcs argument

[D23MIURG23]

139. See post 138.

[DebraK]

253. It affected many residents in the area. I remember this aswell n/t

[karynnj]

91. The points are:

1) Anyone who really cared about the environment, would have fought this.
2) Ignoring that she promised help and requested they provide reports to her - then failed to do anything and did not have the common courtesy to tell them she wouldn't do it.
3) Then to add insult to injury, she publicly claimed to have been part of the effort before an audience that would take that as true (after all who would guess she would have the chutzpah to say she did when she didn't) She also would count on the actives to be to stunned or intimidated to question it.

So it shows:
1) Poor values
2) Dishonesty
3) poor character

[BootinUp]

94. She claimed nothing of the sort

I can't find any reference to her claiming any credit for this. It seems likely to me the author has taken her words out of context and if she expressed any unity with these activists it was probably in regards to environmental issues in general, something she does have a fine record on.

It appears she stayed out of this one fight, probably seeing it was not necessary and had a political downside from a jobs standpoint in her state. You can fault her for that if you want, but it cost nothing. This was not a vote like when Barak Obama voted for Dick Cheneys Energy Bill.

Lastly, RFK Jr who is from the Hudson Bay area and is a champion of environmental issues has endorsed her. The environment won here, so what we have here is an attempt to create a political story. Congratulations for jumping the bandwagon.

[newburgh]

119. Jobs? I'd suggest watching the movie "Two Square Miles"

It was featured on Independent Lens and is about this fight against the cement plant in Hudson, NY. This huge pollution-spewing(with a 6 mile plume) monstrosity was going to effectively create ONE job! Most of the plant would have been automated and the company would have transfered present employees from another site to operate it. Apparently the site had a 100 year supply of material for the plant. It would have been the end of Hudson and a lot of the Hudson Valley from an environmental standpoint for generations.

I live in another city in New York. Much bigger than Hudson's 4500 population, we have almost 30,000 residents. Because we have a poverty rate of 52%, a median income of $36 grand and a measly 30% homeownership, most of whom commute 2 hours each way to NYC, we have a limited number of active citizens keeping an eye on our government. Because of the poverty level we attract beaucoup grants- the "poverty industry" takes in more than our city budget of $50million. Yet nothing has been done ever to make a dent in that poverty. The government is so inept it's being run by outsiders. Our constant and regular pleas to Ms. Clinton and Mr. Schumer to investigate and/or account for all this lost money have gone unanswered. She threw us a bone, for our A.J.Davis-designed Dutch Reformed Church, many years ago and then disappeared.

She may have bigger fish to fry now that she's running for POTUS, but from our experience, she just used her office here to springboard that campaign, showing up for photo ops wherever the campaign $$ could come from. We were obviously too poor for her needs and all that wasted grant money just doesn't fit into her plans.

[George II]

128. Knowing the background and area, that plant had ZERO chance of being built anyway...

It's just a cheap shot against Clinton based on a very local NON-issue!

If it was a SINCERE post, the headline would have been less indict-ful.

Totally bogus and unethical post.

[D23MIURG23]

134. She took credit for a victory that wasn't hers...

after having evaded so much as weighing in on the issue publicly.

[BootinUp]

137. link to any quote?

I dont believe it.

[ugdude]

154. Everybody needs to read this thread, esp HRC supporters n/t

[Recursion]

151. She waited until it was decided...

...and then latched on to the winning side.

"Or else a hovering temporizer that
Canst with thine eyes at once see good and evil,
Inclining to them both."

-- Shakesepeare, The Winter's Tale

[MilesColtrane]

26. When the choice comes down to a company or just plain people we know where she stands.

[HonestyIsAVirtue]

53. Of course

She voted for the war after all. She doesn't care about people's lives.

[BeyondGeography]

28. This was such a huge issue in Columbia County, NY

and it will go down as one of the great grass roots victories of the modern environmental movement. It really wouldn't have happened without local involvement, which got the attention of the NYC crowd since many of them have weekend homes up there. Ground zero of the movement was a great little town called Hudson, located right next to Greenport where the plant was to be built; worth a visit if you're ever bouncing around the Hudson River Valley.

At any rate, a major battle was won without the help of the major establishment politician in the state. That she would claim a share of the victory, would took seven long years to get, is enough to make anyone who was directly involved permanently disgusted.

[HonestyIsAVirtue]

59. I know

No wonder nobody but HRC supporters comsider her trustworthy

[NC_Nurse]

29. Very interesting.

Thanks for posting this. I'm glad I didn't put you on ignore yesterday. I was considering it. ;)

[ugdude]

193. This is interesting aswell

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4364142

[BootinUp]

35. Response at Dkos worth a read

I don't know how to link to specific comments but you can search for this at the dkos diary comments page to see it as it was posted.

-------------------------

"The real decision here lies with Mr. Pataki." (5+ / 0-)
Recommended by:markusd, cpa1, Jim Riggs, skiddlybop, luvmovies2000


Says the New York Times on April 10, 2005.

See "Decision Time for Cement":

Pertinent excerpt, emphasis added:

And in the middle, as is always the case when a big new plant seeks permission to build, is New York, in particular Gov. George E. Pataki, whose government must approve the necessary permits.

Until now, the opponents have focused most of their pressure on the State Department of Environmental Conservation, which last fall ordered a series of judicial hearings on various critical issues surrounding the plant, as mandated by environmental law. This process could go on for some time.

Last month, however, Scenic Hudson and its confederates opened a second line of attack, filing a detailed brief with New York's secretary of state. The brief asserts that the plant would violate at least a half-dozen protections for scenic resources, as well as air and water quality, provided by the state's coastal management plan. The company had claimed in an earlier application that the project was fully consistent with that plan.

A ruling from the secretary, Randy Daniels, is expected soon. A negative decision would deal the project a heavy blow because the Army Corps of Engineers could not then issue important permits without which the company cannot proceed, whatever the outcome of the other reviews. St Lawrence could appeal the ruling to the United States Department of Commerce, which oversees state plans for managing coastlines, but reversals are rare.

And that, in fact, is exactly what happened:

From "Secretary of state rejects St. Lawrence Cement plant on Hudson", Business Review, April 22, 2005:

New York state's secretary of state has dealt a blow, perhaps a fatal one, to the St. Lawrence Cement Co.'s long-standing plan to build a new plant on the Hudson River in Greenport, Columbia County.

Randy Daniels concluded this week that the ambitious project is not consistent with either the state's federally approved Coastal Management Program or with Local Waterfront Revitalization Programs along the Hudson River.



It was always a state issue, man. There's a principle that even Obama can't change: Federalism.

Plus you misled her: you told her that there were federal regulations that she could help push to slow the project down. My guess is that her staff researched the issue and told her that there was little she could do through what authority she had as a Senator to stop the project at the time.

Sen. Clinton's been involved in plenty of hearings on clean air in New York state. You can search the internet and find them. I did just in finding the Times' editorial. She has never been indifferent to the environment.

You wanted a Messiah to snap her fingers and make it all go away. We all wish getting rid of things we think are undesirable were that easy. Now you think Obama is that Messiah.

Funny thing is, had the proposed plant been built and equipped to the highest environmentally friendly standards available, you would have that plant and the decent paying jobs it would have brought to the community. And the community lost out on $800,000 in tax revenue.

You don't build sustainable support for your preferred candidate when you lie about another.

All of our Democratic candidates are better than any of their Republican candidates.

by Superskepticalman on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 03:13:43 AM PST

< Parent >

[DemGa]

38. Rec....n/t

[kurth]

39. Minor legal detail

according to recent converts to the cult.

[Armstead]

41. That is misleading

This was a potential Federal issue as well. The plant would have been very near to Massachusetts and Connecticut, and both states would have experienced significant air pollution as a result.

Also, the Hudson has been the focus of major federal issues, including the ongoing battle between the EPA and General Electric over PCB's.

Hillary cold have done a lot on this issue, even if she had simply taken a very public symbolic stand against the plant and/or gotten on the ass of the EPA on the basis of interstate air pollution.

[George II]

184. Bottom line - THE PLANT WASN'T BUILT!!!

It was rejected before it became an issue for the federal government.

What ELSE could she have done? Kiss the poster's ass?

[HonestyIsAVirtue]

42. You forgot to...

show the 300 other messages that contradict your post. They all agree that Hillary was in the wrong. It's okay though, I knew Hillary supporters would try to do damage control via lies.

[hertopos]

44. Thank you so much for your research

I think this is the kind of smear Obama side will keep coming up.
They like to appeal to 'young and simple minded'.

I am always wondering how Obama almost never meet voters one to one base.
Hillary and Bill does that all the time.

NO wonder Obama does not need to be involved with anything specific.
Once you are involved with real specifics, you have to go though many muddy waters.

Hertopos

[HonestyIsAVirtue]

45. What research?

The person scowered a comments page for an OPINION. The person also lied since five other senators were able to make a difference and didn't steal undue credit. 300 posts refute that very statement.

The fact you're defending this behaviour speaks volumes. Hillary Rodham-Clinton: Stealing credit from the little guy.

[UndergroundEcoHound]

130. "young and simple minded"

Wow...the condescension flowing from some people on this board is absolutely astounding. Your post reeks of elitism and represents why so of us feel so detached from a decent portion of the democratic party.

[HonestyIsAVirtue]

43. Indefensible...

I can't believe how Hillary supporters will overlook this.

It just goes to show that no amount of money can buy CHARACTER (which is what ultimately matters in a candidate).

[AGirl]

46. I need more information. Thanks.

[HonestyIsAVirtue]

49. So if this turns out to be true (which it is) in your eyes...

Will your opinion change? Will you still support HRC? I'm just curious.

[AGirl]

50. I am sure it's true, but I like to hear HIllary's response.

on what she has done about this issue.

[HonestyIsAVirtue]

51. So you will stick by a...

proven thief? I mean, I've had work and credit stolen from me before. It is the worst kind of theft.

[BootinUp]

68. Goodbye

[HonestyIsAVirtue]

47. I'm sickened....

Promising to help someone, ditching them, and then stealing the credit without doing any work.

Where is the SUBSTANCE in that? I want a candidate who actually does the HARD WORK, who actually READS THE IWR. That's right, our candidate should read it before voting on it. How much blood is on their hands otherwise?

[blm]

65. It's like how Bush takes credit for any environmental advance - big or small

and takes NONE of the blame for everything else that's deteriorating rapidly under his watch.

[MH1]

66. Exactly

many parallels to Bush could be drawn, no?

[GoldieAZ49]

69. This is Hillary's record

she keeps talking about the Clinton Presidency, when there is any criticism she says oh that was Bill not me.

She never talks about HER RECORD because there is no hiding it.

I don't buy or vote for bait n switch which is all the Clinton's have to offer

[ugdude]

152. Very true n/t

[TwilightGardener]

71. Not good. Classic politics as usual--play both sides of an issue, look

concerned and informed to all involved, refuse to take a stand, and then see how it turns out and adjust your response to gain maximum political benefit.

[MH1]

72. Yep, politics as usual

That's Hillary.

[KennedyGuy]

80. signed..all my love, Michelle Obama

[bigwillq]

115. HA!

:rofl:

[DebraK]

255. thats not funny n/t

[yessir]

84. Kick :) n/t

[beezlebum]

87. hm...

Having volunteered on Clinton's first senate campaign, I get mad when I hear Rush Limbaugh savage her as a liar and an opportunist. I'm also grateful to her for keeping Rudy Guiliani and Rick Lazio out of the Senate.

But you don't have to be a sexist or a conspiracy theorist to oppose Clinton's candidacy.

I don't dislike Hillary; I distrust her. And my reasons are both substantive, and based on direct personal experience.

When a major issue hit the area where I live, New York's Hudson Valley, Clinton was less than honest with her constituents, and all too eager to take credit where none was due.

well, first of all, i definitely don't trust HRC either, but in the same breath the author writes that s/he does not like to hear HRC savaged as a liar and opportunist- and the messenger mentioned may far exceed in any ill qualities one may find in clinton, but he is not the only one to find such fault in her, and the author seems to as well- s/he then nods his/her head in agreement, as then we have have the breakdown as to why hillary can't be trusted by the author:

the author goes on then to write that, "(POINT A) Clinton was less than honest with her constituents, (POINT B)and all too eager to take credit where none was due." not that i give limbaugh or the likes of him any sort of credibility, here, in this very sentence, hillary is proven both a liar in point A and opportunistic in point B. *scratches head* :wtf:

usually when i don't trust someone, it is because at he or she can be legitimately "savaged" as a liar and/or opportunist. and as for disliking, i tend not to like people who lie and take advantage of weakness, as opportunists often do. i could go on and point to other logical fallacies herein, but what's the point- i can't and won't vote for hrc either.

[Hutzpa]

89. *Scratches Head*

You're not making any sense whatsoever, I sure hope you're insinuating the OP
is a Rush Limbaugh prompted attack on your wonderful Hillary.

[beezlebum]

92. no way!!!

my apologies- written in haste. feeling a bit snarky and cranky today. i thought the entry was somewhat confusing and was simply pointing out the first fallacy i noted. i thought about deleting what i wrote since i was certain it too was riddled with nonsense- and :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :puke: :puke: :rofl: my wonderful hillary???

please, i implore you to read any of my posts and you will know that i would sooner cover myself in honey, bury myself in an ant pile, gouge my own eyes out with a burning spoon, after guzzing a gallon of syrup of ipecac, and then ask the first passer by to please light my hair on fire than have any sort of affection or inclination toward hillary whatsoever.

[Hutzpa]

109. Ok...you made your point

I can relate, but no need for all the drama.

Damnit!

[George II]

123. Right, thanks...

It's a one-issue rant. With everything going on in this country and the world, this guy is going to make his decision based on a local coal-fired plant that WASN'T built???? What a crock. The heading says it all - it's just a cheap trick to try to destroy Clinton's reputation and possible candidacy. Rush Limbaugh and Karl Rove have been doing it for about 16 years, who gives a shit about this local yokel and his whining. Besides, there is nothing a US Senator could do about stopping the plant anyway, it was a state licensing/approval issue.

PS - the plant that he whined about was NOT built (mentioned above) but it would have replaced a St. Lawrence Cement plant that is spewing out MORE crap than the new one would have. So, the net result of his crusade? MORE pollution. But at least he got his shots at Hillary Clinton.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

93. The worst thing she did was take credit for the defeat of the facility.

It's one thing to change your mind, even for political expediency, but to then glom onto it for cheap points the way she did is sick.

[BootinUp]

96. There is no evidence I see that she did.

I believe the author has taken her out of context.

[K Gardner]

95. Only surprised its taken people this long to start documenting these well known facts about HRC. K/R

[sab3rX]

98. My own story

I have been a lurker heat at DU.com for several weeks now. I had been content to just read the arguments that people put forth, to read the articles about current events. But after having read this story about how the voices of many came together as a voice of one only to have the carpet pulled underneath their feet in the moment of their triumph, I felt it necessary to register with DU.com and post my mind.

I had been somewhat weary about Senator Clinton because of her ever centralizing positions and I am still angry that she voted for Iraq when she clearly knew what it meant. The post from the OP only confirmed my fears that the Senator Clinton I thought I once knew is no longer who she claims to be. The OP has allowed me to say with my mind, my conscious and my heart that I will be voting for Barack Obama when its my turn.

Its time that the voice of the people be heard.

[sellitman]

108. Welcome to DU

What took you so long to join in?

[MH1]

120. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[mdmc]

100. Save the Stewart Buffer Zone! PCB cleanup! everyone has the same

concern!

[Cha]

105. My vote on Super Tuesday in New York

will be going to Obama. That sounds like hilary..refusing to take a stand but enthusiastically trying to smear another candidate because her own record is lacking.

"About a year later, Clinton was cornered on the SLC issue by an interviewer from The National Trust for Historic Preservation, who finally got her to say that she thought the proposal was "not the right direction for the Hudson Valley." These remarks were published in Preservation Magazine, which Clinton apparently thought no one would read... because when we then alerted local media to her statement, Clinton's staff denied the remarks and claimed she still had not taken a position.

Only after nearly 14,000 residents and 40 groups wrote in opposition to the Republican administration of George Pataki did this terrible project get scrapped. The company spent $60 million, and yet the citizens managed to stave off the largest cement company in the world -- no thanks to Hillary.

But there was one more damning chapter in our Clinton saga.

After we won, the group I co-founded received an award at the Waldorf-Astoria from the Preservation League of New York. During the award ceremony, it was announced that there would be a video tribute from someone who couldn't attend, but who wanted to pay her respects. Up on a giant screen came Hillary Clinton, talking about how we'd all fought such a good fight together."

Typical hilary.

[ugdude]

149. True, she will stop at nothing to win n/t

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[George II]

107. BFD

Why do people have to post their proclamations about why the WON'T vote for someone? Wouldn't it be more genuine to post why they WOULD vote for someone? I guess that's less dramatic and less self-centered.

[rucognizant]

111. Can I play Devil's advocate here?

Bobby Kennedy Jr. is endorsing Hillary Clinton. How does that sit with Riverkeeper.org? :evilgrin:

http://www.riverkeeper.org/our_bio_rkennedy.php

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is credited with leading the fight to protect New York City's water supply, but his reputation as a resolute defender of the environment stems from a litany of successful legal actions. The list includes winning numerous settlements for Riverkeeper, prosecuting governments and companies for polluting the Hudson River and Long Island Sound, arguing cases to expand citizen access to the shoreline, and suing treatment plants to force compliance with the Clean Water Act.

JUST ASKIN'!:evilgrin:

[loveangelc]

112. Hillary acted like a total bitch to my friend who met her in 04.

Not that thats the reason I don't want to vote for her but what she told me tells me what I suspected about her and her personality.

[ErnestoG]

125. she has a bit of a reputation for that....

[ugdude]

153. She backstabbed John Kerry for her own political goals so... n/t

[DebraK]

259. true that

[postulater]

129. Isn't the Hudson Valley the place RFKJr

worked so hard on?

If so, and I have to think he knows about this, then why is he backing her?

:shrug:

[DebraK]

265. mark penn is also her advisor. what do you expect?

[Catherine Vincent]

135. Why don't you Clinton-haters on this thread do away with Hillary and be done with it? nt

[ErnestoG]

136. "Do away" with her?

Hyperbole much?

[jackson_dem]

142. "personal story" (to bash a candidate)=hearsay

[ugdude]

143. Many people who have worked with the poster corroborate the story

No hearsay.

[ForRusty]

145. I call a lie. Just because I'm a blind Clintonite!!

[ugdude]

169. haha. Very true. n/t

[lostnotforgotten]

160. For Me It Is Simple - She Voted For Bush's War - 'Nuff Said!

eom

[Mithreal]

161. Undecided, but leaning and I say, where's the evidence?

A number of posters have asked for proof that she took credit and whether she did anything behind the scenes. At the very least details of her video tribute should have been clarified.

The op makes me more curious about her environmental policies, but TOO MANY here are jumping to conclusions when there are none warranted.

I am leaning toward Obama, but for godsakes some readers of this op need to stop filling in THE GAPS in the narrative with your personal dislike for the candidate.

I expected to find substantive discussion here. It's been more than a day since this was originally posted so I suspect there will be no evidence forthcoming.

[springhill]

162. You know you would really think...........

that after all the lies and distortions over the last 15 years concering Bill, Hillary, Gore, Kerry, etc., that there would be a more measured and comprehensive look at something before assuming it's gospel. But it's really no different than how the media reacts to these issues; You don't like Hillary, so take it and run with it cause it makes you feel good to trash someone you are already predisposed to not liking. She's power hungry, she'll do anything to win; man, where have I heard this crap before? Maybe Matthews or any of the other stinking talking heads who pretend to be news people. It's just disgusting.

[ugdude]

163. Read the kos replies

Many people corroborated the story with pictures and documented evidence.

[Mithreal]

168. Alrighty then...

I did wonder that I might need to go to kos to get more details but I do thank you for giving me the heads up. Have a good weekend.

[ugdude]

187. Thanks. Hudson the poster expands on the story and provides evidence

[geiger]

164. I despise Dick Morris, but I think he said it first: HRC has a way of creating her own realities:

in her mind she may have convinced herself that she really was instrumental in the process, once victory and accolades were the word of the day.

At best, it's an indicator of the arrogance that too often derives from power, maybe too much of it.

But she may just be a pathalogical liar, in a Machievellian, self-justifying obsession to get more power.... I'm beginning to lean toward the latter conclusion.

[ugdude]

165. I mean, how can anybody defend her behaviour here? It's dispicable n/t

[Dogmudgeon]

166. If this is the "Revolution of Hope" that Obama is bringing in ...

... then leave me out of it.

It's just 24/7 bile, spite, hatred, pettiness, and defamation, repetition of the same malicious gossip that has been regurgitated for over 20 years by wingnuts and reporters with festering personal grudges. I can't imagine Barack Obama approving of it -- though he does benefit from it.

The Kennedy era was NEVER this hateful. And it took Nixon years to accumulate this kind of poison in his system. Reconsider what you're doing.

--p!

[cali]

174. There's nothing remotely hateful about this account.

This is substantive. You can't see that, fine. But you're idea of what's hateful is simply pathetic. Clue: this isn't it.

[BringBigDogBack]

167. Kicked and recd

[ugdude]

171. If you use those tactics... Employing them to hurt is horrible

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/krkaufman/20

[cooolandrew]

176. Yep,, only a few years ago I was very pro hillary but as more stories like yours came along...

... I was less enthused.

[ugdude]

178. So true

Her campaign has destroyed the democratic party. DLC/Hillary tactics are disgusting.

[GOPBasher]

177. That sucks. She just fell in eyes.

If she's the nominee, I will still have to support her. But this solidified my choice in Obama.

[ugdude]

195. It happens. I feel your pain :)

[George II]

186. THIS STORY WAS OVER AND DONE WITH 4-5 YEARS AGO!!!

[ugdude]

188. so was her vote for the war in iraq

Only 1 million people died? I mean, it was so 4-5 years ago.

The point is, there's a pattern emerging about the character of HRC. It doesn't look good.

[George II]

196. Oh? Character?

A rehash of a local issue with a dishonest misleading headline, and you're talking "character"?

[Yossariant]

191. I read this twice. Gobbledeegook. Nonsense. Gibberish. Whinery.

[ugdude]

192. in other words: i cant defend my candidates actions, so i will insult the poster

[George II]

194. No, in other words..

I have nothing positive to say about my candidate so I have to find negative things about the opposing candidate.

[ugdude]

197. Exposing the truth is just that... The truth

[George II]

199. If one has a preferred candidate...

Why don't posters expose the truth about him or her? Why don't people scrutinize the positive records of their candidate as much as they scrutinize the most insignificant failures of the opposition?

This country and the world are rife with major issues that affect billions of people. But in this case, the poster chooses to dwell on an issue that was over and done with years ago - with a resolution that the poster worked for anyway. But, since he was able to find something in that issue to say negatively about Clinton, it became THE issue of the campaign.

Not only that, but the poster chose a very negative heading for his post AND he mislead everyone with his questionable "from kos" lead-in.

The entire premise of the post, from the headline right down to the currency of the issue itself, is bogus and disgusting.

[ugdude]

202. He didnt mislead anybody. The post was from kos, it was a poster who posted there

There is plenty of evidence backing it up aswell

[George II]

205. Yeah, yeah...I know

And if I quote someone who wrote a letter to the editor of the NYT, should I start out by saying "From the New York Times"?

Misleading and phony. Rationalize as you will, it was wrong.

AND, the self-serving bull of "why I can't vote for Hillary" crap. Just a phony excuse to bash an opponent. Plain and simple.

[Yossariant]

198. How about if you explain what happened? I get the "Hillary took my credit" WAAAH!

Explain to me what happened in this "deeply personal" story.

:rofl:

[Name removed]

200. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Yossariant]

204. Oh noes! I'm soooo skeered. Is Obama gonna raise the threat level,too?

[George II]

207. Point?

[George II]

201. I'll tell you what happened...

The State and local officials refused to allow the plant to be built. Years ago. But the poster saw an opportunity to whine and complain about Clinton because she didn't do "enough" about it. Perhaps she knew it would be rejected? Perhaps she was ready and willing to do something once it became an issue that the FEDERAL government and Senate could address?

The poster doesn't have an insight to Clinton's daily calendar or diary, so just HOW does he know she did nothing about this issue? Is she supposed to hold a press conference every time she makes a phone call or writes a letter? If she did that this guy would have ripper her for being TOO public about what she does.

Like you, I fail to see how this could be a "deeply personal" story about Hillary Clinton when the plant was NOT built anyway! It never made it past first base at all, so there was never an imminent threat that it would have been built. IF Clinton used her position to do something premature it might have done more harm than good.

But at least this incident gave the poster an opportunity, trivial as it is, to bash his opposing candidate. Bravo!!! Now, does he ever say who he IS going to vote for? Does he ever say was is GOOD about his candidate? No, he just whines on about Hillary Clinton not doing enough to "stop" a plant that was never going to be built anyway.

Good ol' republican politics, right out of the Karl Rove playbook.

[Yossariant]

203. Thanks, George. That's precisely my take on this "deeply personal" tale.

[George II]

206. Wonder how much the Hudson was polluted by his crocodile tears? WAAA! WAAA!

[ugdude]

208. Unbelievable

You're ridiculing a person for being shafted by the government. Are all HRC supporters like this?

Hudson is an honest, sincere person.

[George II]

209. "SHAFTED BY THE GOVERNMENT"????

Where were you when the St. Lawrence Cement plant was REJECTED by the government?

THIS IS A NON-issue that was over and done with YEARS ago. Repeat - the plant will NOT be built.

Got it? If you call that being "shafted", you have an odd perspective on reality.

[George II]

210. P. S.

I am NOT a HRC supporter, I will be voting for Obama on Tuesday. I just despise these cheap attacks on politicians merely because one can't come up with a single sensible, rational comment about his own preferred candidate. So, he took the easy way out, bash the opponent. Are all "____" supporters like this?

[ugdude]

211. Cheap attacks?

Please read the persons story again, it is coroborated with evidence. You can even call them if you want.

I hate people trying to disregard the truth as if it doesnt matter.

CHARACTER MATTERS. KINDNESS MATTERS. A VOTE FOR THE WAR MATTERS. TAKING CREDIT FOR SOMETHING YOU DIDNT DO MATTERS.

Please understand.

[George II]

212. So....

What was it that Clinton "didn't do"? Is THAT documented, is there corroborated evidence in that story? As I said before, this person doesn't have full access to every phone call or letter that Clinton made. He coudn't see into the future to know what Clinton would our wouldn't do IF the project made it past the preliminary stages, which it never did.

So he wants to see someone do something that really wasn't necessary to do at that time? Ridiculous.

Once again, it was a cheap opportunity to take a cheap shot at someone he decided not to vote for, for whatever reason.

[ugdude]

214. Did you even read the story? She lied to him/her, then took credit for his/her hard work

You find nothing wrong with that?

[George II]

216. Please post "the lie", okay? Include ALL the facts.....

and the context. Not only those that support your hatred for Hillary Clinton.

[George II]

220. So how was the poster "shafted by the government"? Dodging that one?

[JFKgirl]

233. considering hillary cries crocodile tears all the time for political expediency

[BooScout]

217. Sam Pratt is an Obama Blogger....

Don't let his comment that he campaigned for Hillary in the past fool you. He's an Obamamania Fan and enjoys writing with poetic license to further himself and Obama.

[NoodleyAppendage]

219. And, you are a syncophantic DINO/DLC lover, who will lead the party to lose in the general.

Good luck clearing your conscience when your "girl" gets her ass kicked in the general election.

J

[americathabeautiful]

238. This story has opened my eyes

[NoodleyAppendage]

218. Well. This deserving post will bring out the Clinton staffer robo-posts.

Be not fooled. DU has been inflitrated by kool-aide drinking, non-questioning, DINO/DLC loving, Clinton staffer types, who will now try to pound out the original message of this thread.

CLINTON WILL NEVER GET MY VOTE. PERIOD. KEEP PUSHING HER AND SAY HELLO TO REPUKES FOR ANOTHER 4 YEARS.

J

[Tom Rinaldo]

223. From kos: Why I am voting for Hillary, my truly personal Clinton story

I don't think it fair to copy the text from someone else's Diary - but this one has been one of the top rated ones at kos all day:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/3/6579/55330/759/448757

[JFKgirl]

227. Horrible

even after she is exposed for being a liar and a cheat, HRC supporters spin it.

[George II]

232. When and how...

in this discussion has she been exposed as a liar and a cheat? I realize posing a question like this usually never gets a response, but it's worth a shot.

[bushisachimp]

241. wow the true side to hillary is finally revealed

[bushisachimp]

242. my friend also got shafted by hillary clinton regarding testing of dangerous materials

[bushisachimp]

243. every undecided voter needs to see this right away. KICK

[bushisachimp]

244. upping. watch out for the truth folks

[bushisachimp]

245. this story corroborates with her second cry incident. it proves that she will do anything to get

what she wants, including lie, cheat, steal, fake human emotion. she didnt even cry at the funeral of a very close friend, bill did.

[Bostonglobechicka]

246. this story is shocking

[MH1]

250. Bye!

And please stop rising from the dead. Just stop it already, we're on to you.

[BigDDem]

251. Dear kos,

Thanks SO MUCH for letting us know, we've been on pins and needles.
Remember, everyone, yes everyone values your opinion, keep telling
yourself that.

Love,
America

[ErnestoG]

262. Can't stand it when your Queen Hillary isn't supported from all sides, can you!

how pathetic.

[DebraK]

252. This story has opened my eyes, I cannot vote for Hillary

[DebraK]

263. Kicked for all undecided voters

[DebraK]

276. kick for courage

[DebraK]

277. kicking to prevent hillary covering this up

[DebraK]

279. kick!!!

[DebraK]

280. kicked and reced

[DebraK]

281. kicikkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk

[DebraK]

282. yep. kick on

[DebraK]

283. uppppppp

[DebraK]

284. kick

[DebraK]

285. up

[DebraK]

286. kickkkkkkkk

[DebraK]

287. upppppppppppp

[DebraK]

288. keep upping to prevent hillary hiding the truth

[DebraK]

289. upppppppp

[DebraK]

290. kick

[DebraK]

291. this thread has proven the fraud hillary clinton can be

[thoughtcrime1984]

294. kick

[DebraK]

297. kickkkkkkkkkkkkkk

[DebraK]

292. kickkkkkkkk no hiding of the truth now

[DebraK]

293. kickkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk

[DebraK]

295. kick

[DebraK]

296. kick

[DebraK]

298. kicking to expose clinton corruption

[DebraK]

299. kick to stop clintonian corruption

[DebraK]

300. help me expose the truth to those who have yet to see it

[DebraK]

301. kick

[DebraK]

302. kick

[DebraK]

303. kick

[DebraK]

304. kick

[DebraK]

305. kick

[mtnsnake]

318. haha, thank goodness this asshole has been tombstoned

[DebraK]

306. kick

[DebraK]

307. kick

[DebraK]

308. kick

[Cooley Hurd]

309. The SLC issue was a hotbed for many years in the HV...

Although I live about 50 miles north, I traveled frequently up and down Rts 9 and 9W and the yard signs were EVERYWHERE! I didn't follow it close enough to have known Senator Clinton's involvement (or lack, thereof), but I have to say, after reading the Kos entry, I am PROFOUNDLY disappointed in our Senator.:(

BTW: If any non-Hudson Valley residents aren't familiar with Olana, the home of painter Frederic Church, you should check out this site. It's BREATHTAKING!

[DebraK]

310. kick

[DebraK]

312. Wow, every single person needs to see the truth. This post is so revealing

[NashVegas]

314. There's Nothing Personal About This

Unless you consider the political, personal.

The irony here is that the Hillary basher in the story was able to put their own coalition together and accomplish what they needed to without a rescuer on a white horse - which so many Obama supporters seem to want so badly.

[Orsino]

315. There are a lot of good reasons not to support Clinton...

...but no, you're not going to hear them listening to AM radio--unless, perhaps, an AAR affiliate.

All the creeping corporatism that is hurting us so? She and Obama have been happy to vote for much of it.

[DebraK]

316. This story is so shocking!

[mtnsnake]

317. Kick to show that Jim4Wes single-handedly put this entire thing into question

Maybe there is some reason to put blame on Hillary for not responding to the activist, and maybe there isn't. Until someone can answer Jim4Wes's questions, all we have is a personal vendetta of a Kos poster/activist? against Hillary and one big MAYBE.

[MJPassion]

319. kick

[originaldeanic]

320. KICK