The worst possible time for Obama to be using the right's Harry & Louise imagery?

[Karmadillo]

I'm guessing the Corporate Media won't hammer Obama on this (after all, most media mouths have decent health insurance, so if we end up without universal care after the next election, who cares?).

http://www.campaigndiaries.com/2008/02/endorsed-by-moveon-and-la-times-obama.html

<edit>

Today, Obama drew fire from the Left, as the defining issue was once again health care. Clinton advisers blasted the Obama campaign (one staffer used an over-the-top Nazi analogy that another one quickly disavowed) for this stunning health care mailer that has been sent to Democratic households:

Obama's criticism of mandates for undermining individual choice has long been criticized as a right-wing talking point. But the image used in this mailer brought back memories of the Harry and Louise ad that aired in 1993 blasting HillaryCare. In the ad, a couple is seen struggling to pay the bills and burdened by the health care costs imposed by the Clinton plan (you can watch the ad here). The American Prospect's Ezra Klein posts an image from the 1993 ad which looks very similar to Obama's mailer:

<edit>

Krugman has long criticized Obama for preparing the arguments the Right will use next year if a Democrat tries to pass universal health care. And that concern was at the forefront of Krugman and Klein's criticism today, as both worried that this kind of attack would make it impossible for Democrats to achieve a broad reform next year. Klein detailed explanation of why a health care plan needs to incorporate some mandate to function is a good read for those who want to get up to date on what this debate is all about. And for those who critisize Krugman for being too focused on criticizing Obama and who regard his columns as Clinton endorsements, most of Krugman's columns over the past few weeks have made it obvious that Krugman was leaning towards Edwards and that he is speaking today in the name of former Edwards supporters who are unsure of where to turn.

That brings us to the main problem this mailer could cause for Obama. This week has been all about the hunt for the votes of former Edwards backers. But John Edwards's health care plan included mandates, and the candidate had dueled with Obama on the trail in the past few months on this issue. This latest development could make it more difficult for Edwards to endorse Obama as he might have been looking to do. And even if he chooses to do so, will his supporters necessarily follow? Many progressives are unsure of where to turn now that Edwards has withdrawn and are looking for any clues, so this is the worst possible time for Obama to be hit for using "Harry and Louise" imagery.

[Demeter]

1. There Would Never Be a Good Time, IMO

Harry and Louise should be laid to rest along with the little girl in the anti-Goldwater ad.

[AndyTiedye]

13. Something Like the Little Girl in the Goldwater Ad May be Our Only Hope of Beating McCain

It would be appropriate, since what McCain proposes to do (expand the Iraq war, attack Iran) would most like bring about World War III.

[Leopolds Ghost]

2. Mandates are NOT Universal Health Care & this bullshit attempt at redefinition is a RW Talking Point

Let's force the American public to buy fucking privately owned Bank Savings Accounts while we're at it, maroons.

[anamandujano]

20. I believe she explained that the mandate is necessary so that

EVERYBODY (i.e. universal) has coverage. Those that cannot afford it will be subsidized. It's a start.

In Obama's plan, there will still be those that are not covered (i.e. NOT universal) who think they will never get sick, don't anticipate accidents, etc. What happens to them? For openers, they will be a strain on the system or, worst case scenario, will just not be able to get care when they need it, or mortgage the house (if they still have one.)

Hillary seemed to be saying that she will find ways for EVERYBODY to have health care.

[sunonmars]

3. Obama's been doing some desperate stuff the last few days, is his camp worried about something

[REDFISHBLUEFISH]

The polls probably.

[REDFISHBLUEFISH]

24. The polls probably.

[libbygurl]

4. It's not quite 'Nazis in Skokie', but certainly a RW tactic. Thanks again to the sensible Krugman...

...for pointing this out, and thanks for this, too, Karmadillo.

[xchrom]

5. recommend

[Leopolds Ghost]

6. How can you guys blindly support this Dukakis bullshit?

Universal health care is not mandated private insurance. Period. Stop pissing on FDR's grave.

[anamandujano]

23. Everyone already knows how they've been snookered by the

insurance companies who when attacking Hillary's effort promised so much but delivered so little. It'll be nice not to have accountants deciding who gets what when it comes to care. Choice indeed.

[REDFISHBLUEFISH]

30. Me too! Everyone shouldrec this one!

[earthlover]

7. It gets lame to call everything Obama says or does "right wing tactics"

There is very little difference actually between Hillary's and Obama's health care plans. The main difference is that Obama concentrates on cost more, whereas Hillary's mandates everyone buy a policy regardless of cost. So, to call Obama's plan, which is maybe 90% Hillary's plan, right wing would be also to call Hillary's plan right wing, because of the many shared parts.

To say that anything the right wing believes in makes the person "right wing"...remember that right wingers fervantly believe in breathing air instead of water. If a Democrat forms the opinion that we should breathe air instead of water, it doesn't follow that he/she is making a right wing arguement.

It is tiresome all this phony accusations. Please, discuss whether focussing on cost vs mandate that everyone buy a policy is better based on the merits. Not lame illogical name calling.

Neither Obama nor Clinton is right wing....

[Maribelle]

8. But Obama's plans for health care are classic republican trickle down.

No one can deny this, if they have studied his plan.

And the classic problem with trickle down is that it dries high.

Where I live, the soaring number of uninsured are clogging Emergency Rooms, using these Emergency Rooms as their primary health care provider. And on top of that, the hospitals are spreading the costs for the uninsured across the board, forcing the insured to pay for the uninsured, also forcing up the cost of premiums.

How does Obama address this issue? I know, do you? I call a classic example of more republican trickle down.

[earthlover]

28. Trickle down is a theory about economics, not health care....for one

2nd, there is very little difference between Hillary's and Obama's health care plans.

Obama emphasizes cutting costs Hillary emphasizes mandatory insurance plans.

Hillary doesn't say how she will actually enforce these mandates. Send people to jail? Fine them? Garnish their wages? Just how?

If the plans are made affordable, most would sign up voluntarily.

I am sorta in the middle here. If the prices are kept down, mandates may be in order. But if they are not significantly lower, mandates would be a hardship on people least able to afford it.

Neither plan is true universal health coverage...insurance is not the same as health care. I believe health care is a right....not something to be relegated to private health insurance for profit companies and then mandated for even the poorest. Neither plan really addresses this.

[anamandujano]

31. She knows the battlefield inside out, upside down.

Her starting point is to get everyone in at an affordable price. She spoke about negotiating to keep the prices down. She mentioned subsidies.

edit to add--trickle down is a system and can be used for everything.

[UALRBSofL]

10. I don't think she is calling his plan right wing

What she is saying is Obama is running ads that attack Hillary and are coming across as right wing tactics. However, I believe Hillarycare is a little bit better then Obama's. One thing, a major factor is the pre-existing illness. I wished Obama would state pre-existing illness would be covered without penalties monetarily. This is an important issue because there are millions of folks with medical problems.

[earthlover]

29. The OP is talking about right wing tactics....not fair

There are left wing criticisms of her plan

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

9. This is an even stupider made-up issue than Handshakegate n/t

[THUNDER HANDS]

11. mandates worry people

it worries me. I don't want to be told I have to join a health care plan. I'm an adult, I should be able to choose whether or not I want a plan based on whether I can afford it or not.

[anamandujano]

22. You'll want health care when you need it. No one is invulnerable.

When everyone is taken into account, the costs will be negotiable, i.e. less. She spoke of that. Those that can't afford, will be subsidized.

[stillcool]

12. The Clinton Campaign Apologized...

Once Again! Why do they keep doing that...and why do you?

At the end of the call, Howard Wolfson, Clinton's communication's director, hopped on to say that the 'Nazi' line was not the campaign's position.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Later in the afternoon, Nichols sent an email to reporters apologizing for the Skokie reference.

"Today my passion overwhelmed me," Nichols said in the note. "I chose an analogy that was wholly inappropriate. I am deeply sorry for any offense that my unfortunate comments may have caused."

What did the mailer actually say?...

The way Hillary Clinton's health care plan covers everyone is to have the government force uninsured people to buy insurance, even if they can't afford it.
"....forcing those who cannot afford health insurance to buy it through mandates..punishing those who don't fall in line with fines."
-The Daily Iowan December 21, 2007

Punishing families who can't afford health care to begin with just doesn't make sense.

Barack Obama believes that it's not that people don't want health care, it's that they can't afford it. That's why the Obama plan covers every American by reducing costs more than Hillary Clinton's, saving the typical family up to $2,500 per year.
Bill Clinton's own Secretary of Labor, Robert Reich, wrote, "I've compared the two plans in detail...But my view Obama's would insure more people, not fewer, than HRC's."-Robert Reich, December 3, 2007

The Obama Health Care Plan:

-offers health care coverage for all Americans similar to that of members of Congress, and subsidies to help those who cannot afford it.
-Reduces insurance costs more than Hillary's plan, including capping insurance company profits in places where they take advantage of people.
-Saves the typical family up to $2,500 per year.
Read the entire plan at BarackObama.com

[Karmadillo]

14. I didn't compare Obama to the Nazis, so I'm not sure why you're suggesting

I keep doing such things. I do compare him at times to wingnuts, but that's only because he sometimes uses similar talking points.

[stillcool]

17. did you read what you posted?

Today, Obama drew fire from the Left, as the defining issue was once again health care. Clinton advisers blasted the Obama campaign (one staffer used an over-the-top Nazi analogy that another one quickly disavowed) for this stunning health care mailer that has been sent to Democratic households:

[Karmadillo]

18. Obviously, if you had read what you posted,

you would have seen the comment is described as over-the-top and was one quickly disavowed by the campaign. I, obviously, made no comparison of Obama to the Nazis. The mailer is sufficiently egregious that one hardly needs to resort to that sort of thing.

[stillcool]

21. Why is it egregious?

the wording? A couple sitting at a kitchen table?

[Karmadillo]

26. Nope. Guess again.

nt

[stillcool]

27. I have no idea...

Nazi reference by Clinton supporter repudiated by her campaign
Filed under: LOS ANGELES, Calif. , Bill Sammon , 2008 Trail
http://www.startribune.com/nation/15111426.html

Len Nichols of the New America Foundation is shown above at a briefing recently co-sponsored by The Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. Nichols referred to a Nazi march in denouncing an Obama flyer.
Feb 2, 2008 3:00 AM (20 hrs ago) by Bill Sammon, The Examiner

LOS ANGELES, Calif. (Map, News) - Just hours after Hillary Clinton adopted a respectful, almost friendly tone with Barack Obama in a Democratic debate, her campaign orchestrated a conference call in which a health-care specialist referred to a Nazi march in denouncing an Obama flyer.
--------------------------------------------------
Len Nichols of the New American Foundation, which is based in Washington, called the photo a "Harry and Louise evocation," a reference to TV ads against Clinton's failed universal health care plan in 1994.

"I am personally outraged at the picture used in this mailing," Nichols told reporters on the conference call. "I just find it disgusting that this kind of imagery is being used to attack the only way to get to universal coverage."

He added: "It is as outrageous as having Nazis march through Skokie, Illinois."

It was a reference to a Nazi splinter group, the National Socialist Party of America, that won a court case 30 years ago allowing them to march through a Chicago suburb with a sizeable Jewish population.

The reference set off strong denunciations by Obama supporters, who accused the Clinton campaign of going way beyond the bounds of acceptable political discourse.
--------------------
http://www.startribune.com/nation/15111426.html

The way Hillary Clinton's health care plan covers everyone is to have the government force uninsured people to buy insurance, even if they can't afford it.
"....forcing those who cannot afford health insurance to buy it through mandates..punishing those who don't fall in line with fines."
-The Daily Iowan December 21, 2007

Punishing families who can't afford health care to begin with just doesn't make sense.

Barack Obama believes that it's not that people don't want health care, it's that they can't afford it. That's why the Obama plan covers every American by reducing costs more than Hillary Clinton's, saving the typical family up to $2,500 per year.
Bill Clinton's own Secretary of Labor, Robert Reich, wrote, "I've compared the two plans in detail...But my view Obama's would insure more people, not fewer, than HRC's."-Robert Reich, December 3, 2007

The Obama Health Care Plan:

-offers health care coverage for all Americans similar to that of members of Congress, and subsidies to help those who cannot afford it.
-Reduces insurance costs more than Hillary's plan, including capping insurance company profits in places where they take advantage of people.
-Saves the typical family up to $2,500 per year.
Read the entire plan at BarackObama.com

[Karmadillo]

33. Why do you keep comparing Obama to the Nazis? Stop it.

nt

[stillcool]

34. You posted about this mailer...

while you may not care about the analogies the Clinton Campaign uses,.. and again has to apologize for.. in their attacks on Obama I do. I am not comparing anyone to the Nazi's. The Clinton campaign is. Every time I see a new post regarding this mailer and it's content, no one seems capable of explaining to me what the problem is with it. Is it wrong for me to seek clarity from those who obviously see something wrong with this mailer?

[Evergreen Emerald]

15. Of course he will get away with it--if he can get away with using Race

to divide, this little Nazi thing is nothing.

[KennedyGuy]

16. right on...where is all this Hope he keeps spouting?

[ErnestoG]

19. Somebody owns the idea of a couple at the kitchen table?

Wow, then I guess people who take pictures of their family are screwed.

[BootinUp]

25. We will never get Universal care with Obama

Lets face it, he has no clue how to politik to get there.

I suggest as an example of how Obama (doesn't) resolve issues, people review his Nuclear Regulatory Bill failure here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4354755
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/03/us/politics/03exelon.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5088&en=f2cec53f8b5de3bc&ex=1359694800&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

[BeyondGeography]

32. She might as well get used to being challenged on mandates

because, if she's the nominee, she'll spend her whole time defending them in the general.

But at least she will have been able to have pretended she was all about universal health care in the primaries.

[Vinca]

35. Exactly. Neither candidate is for universal health CARE.

They're both promoting universal health INSURANCE. The difference between the 2 is whether I'll voluntarily support big insurance or be forced to support big insurance. It's not much of a choice.