MI and FL delegates were not selected by primary voting

[featherman]

There seems to be some confusion that there is a slate of delegates from MI and FL that was selected during the decertified primaries. Primaries are only one of several methods by which a state party may name its delegates. Once the primary election has been decertified by the DNC as this year with MI and FL, the results become null and void regarding delegate selection and cannot be used. The DNC has the authority over this. They have to certify the selection process. It's their job.

So because the primary vote in these two states was not approved as a means of delegate selection the voting done those days become irrelevant to the delegate selection process.

" Delegates shall be allocated in a fashion that fairly reflects the expressed presidential preference or uncommitted status of the primary voters or, if there is no binding primary, the convention and/or caucus participants."

The "no binding primary" is the key phrase there.

You can read all about it in the Convention Rules if you so choose:

http://www.demconvention.com/a/2007/03/delegate_select.html

I have written elsewhere about how this is likely to be resolved elsewhere and you can read about that it you so choose:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4347970&mesg_id=4348514

[dkf]

1. I thought we were thinking Hillary was going to have the

rules changed at the convention by having her people make changes in the rules committee?

[featherman]

2. A delegation will be seated by some process, likely a caucus or

pre-convention negotiations with the DNC as I have outlined, but the primary results themselves were null and void and can't be used to apportion delegates.

We are talking about real people here who need to make plans, buy tickets, get reservations, etc. which is why I expect this to be resolved after the full national primary season but well before the convention. There will be a compromise likely along the lines I have outlined here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4347970&mesg_id=4348514

[joshcryer]

4. There are no "rules" at the DNC. The "rules" are decided upon as the convention gets going.

The only "rule" going into this convention is that MI and FL don't count, but they can easily be seated simply by calling for a vote to seat them. It's called representational democracy.

[madfloridian]

3. Here are some other summations.

They are not going to count toward picking a nominee. Only when the nominee is chosen.

How would the Florida and Michigan delegates actually be seated?

And the same kind of threats happened with McAuliffe in 04, but no one was upset then. Florida has helped spread the outrage by spinning.

Carl Levin and Terry McAuliffe made a deal about primaries in 2004

Terry threatened not to let Michigan's delegates near Boston at all if they moved up their primary. Yet Florida is making it sound like what is happening is something new and terrible.

[joshcryer]

6. The delegates cannot count toward the nomination, that is correct.

And it's not because they "don't count," it's just that it's mathematically impossible for them to magically count toward the nomination. If you can seat the delegates then you have won the nomination.

[joshcryer]

5. It is likely that FL and MI will send the delegates that they very much have already appropriated.

You act as if FL and MI didn't sit down and set up delegates when that's clearly not the case. They expect to send delegates to the DNC.

[madfloridian]

7. And Bill Nelson will lead them.

Nelson: "I will lead the delegates to Denver whether or not the DNC plans to let them in."
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1455

[featherman]

8. This would be what is known as a "rogue slate" if these delegates

were not selected and apportioned according to an approved DNC process. I expect this issue to be resolved in negotiation before the convention and a delegation seated but not apportioned using the voided primary results. I could be wrong and the whole thing get turned into an ugly, party damaging squabble at the Convention. Let's hope not.

[joshcryer]

9. The DNC never told them not to "select their delegates."

[featherman]

12. The selection of delegates must follow an approved method of which

there are several, not just by primary vote. Otherwise they are not credentialed Democratic Party Convention Delegates.

This was all covered extensively back in the civil rights days when competing delegations (one white, one with black participation) fought over which was to be seated and credentialed.

[joshcryer]

13. Show me where FL and MI are breaking those selection rules.

[featherman]

15. I thought I already did in the original post

" Delegates shall be allocated in a fashion that fairly reflects the expressed presidential preference or uncommitted status of the primary voters or, if there is no binding primary, the convention and/or caucus participants."

There was no binding primary - this is about allocation to one candidate or the other. The selection of delegates by the Florida or Michigan Democratic Party can't be allocated as committed to one candidate or the other by the results of a decertified primary.

Delegates are required at the time they are selected to sign a pledge that they are committed to a certain candidate or are uncommitted. Otherwise they are not certified.
That's also in the rules.

[madfloridian]

17. Thanks for trying, and thanks for the post.

[MaineDem]

18. And candidates have right of refusal on all delegates. n/t

[joshcryer]

19. The key part is this:

Delegates shall be allocated in a fashion that fairly reflects the expressed presidential preference or uncommitted status of the primary voters or, if there is no binding primary, the convention and/or caucus participants.

You do not know whether or not the caucus will find them allocatable or not. If a vote is tabled to seat delegates from FL and MI representing their primary presidential preference, they can count if that vote passes.

As Dean and Pelosi said, at the DNC there are no "rules." The rules change vote by vote.

[joshcryer]

14. It seems as if you're confusing state selection with convention allocation, correct me...

...if I'm wrong.

[featherman]

16. LOL we're getting too fast for each other

See above... the delegates sign the pledge to one candidate or another at the state level. That's the state level "allocation" as in 87 delegates for candidate ABC and 73 delegates for candidate XYZ entering the convention and before the first ballot.

"# All candidates for delegate and alternate in caucuses, conventions, committees and on primary ballots shall be identified as to presidential preference or uncommitted status at all levels of a process which determines presidential preference."

[demo dutch]

10. It should be about the VOTERS not the PARTY!

[joshcryer]

11. It is, Dean's solution is absolutely fair.