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THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN DREAMS AND FANTASY

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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 02:02 PM
Original message
THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN DREAMS AND FANTASY
Edited on Sat Feb-02-08 02:29 PM by ClericJohnPreston
As William Butler Yeats so eloquently stated:

"But I, being poor, have only my dreams;
I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly, because you tread on my dreams."

This quote appears in my sig line, such is the power of having dreams. Dreams, properly channeled, can be transformational, transcendent.

On the other hand, dreams which are predicated upon mere manipulative speech and a marshmallow foundation, will never stand the test of time or the harsh realities they try to hold at bay.

It is the latter, which precede a fall from grace, and leave those who were along for the ride, with a pounding headache and a bewildered countenance.

John F. Kennedy was an American original. There were no other Presidential candidates who preceded him, that spoke in lofty terms , using the imagery of imagination to energize his supporters. However, Kennedy did not deliver a BLANK CHECK of only hopes and dreams, but gave his supporters a SECOND message; that there was a price to be paid for the dreams to which they aspire. The price for those dreams was a commitment to be better citizens.

"Ask not what your Country can do for you, but what you can do for your Country".

That phrase was understood and comprehended by that generation and the young, to mean a commitment to the needs of the poor and lowest members of society. Internationally, it meant the creation of the newly minted service, "The Peace Corps". This gave an opportunity to idealists to sacrifice their free time and give service to the weak, poor and oppressed of the World.

Kennedy's era, was not an era of ME,ME,ME.

Turning to Barack Obama, there again is a clarion call to "HOPE and DREAMS". In a landscape littered with the sparse and destitute Bush legacy, bereft of any tone of uplifting message, these words fall like golden rain, on a parched desert of thirsty citizens. Predicated on a hopeful message, like Kennedy, to accompany a campaign to help people, the message would be one that truly spoke to a new way of seeing our ills, and of working together to accomplish goals that furthered COMMON problems, or those that reached OUTSIDE of the community we live in.

Thus, we come to look at what Obama is offering.

In researching Obama ( yes, once upon a time people actually looked into what a candidate stands for and what their history is, without joining based on mere entreaty )it was said that he always enjoyed making people happy. It was also said he learned early on that rather than deal in specifics, it was easier to dispense mere hope of something, than delivering something. Getting bogged down in specifics was counter-productive to obtaining support.

Maybe this explains my uneasiness with Obama, and many more like me, who are put off by Obama supporters who are unable to specifically describe his plans for ending poverty, regulating the credit industry, bringing back American jobs from overseas, and many more questions which define his priorities and character.

I was raised to be a critical thinker and to question everything. Law School will do that to you, by design. Does that make me cynical? Hardly. I'm a father of a precocious five year old and understand what it means to surrender thought for an appreciation of the simple things.

Being a father though, I am uniquely aware of the fact that there are STARVING children in our inner cities and in pockets such as Appalachia, where people are desperately poor. While we act as keyboard heroes and toast our candidates victories, as if they were our own, hundreds of thousands of children are going to bed hungry each night.

Where is their champion?

I was, and continue to be a supporter of John Edwards. I will vote for him in our New York primary on Tuesday. He made the fight against poverty his number one priority. Despite all the dreams that Obama offers to the first time voters he so specifically courts, I have seen no counter-balance to the price of such a victory. I have listened intently to this new group of voters, not that much younger than I am; but unlike me, I see and hear no sense of social responsibility, and no sense of accountability. They merely assume a victory, because they have a need to be a "winner". I have fought causes for victories that were personal and private, for the benefit of the many, not a shared gestalt of "we're winners"! It is the latter, which defined Kennedy, a call to social responsibility, that distinguishes Obama from the ORIGINAL JFK.

Obama's dreams and hopes are perfectly tailored to today's Republican reality of tax cuts for the wealthy and wars without personal cost. Once upon a time, there was a War in Viet Nam, with a DRAFT, that meant that the young of that generation were asked to pay the ultimate price. Bush, with his volunteer army of the poor and disadvantaged, has been able to sweep this war out of public consciousness. Latte liberals can banter about our victory to come, without once sharing the burden of their liberty with those less fortunate. Obama sells a dream with only an UPSIDE, asking nothing more than blind allegiance.

Has there ever been a victory so cheaply bought?

I am no more a fan of Hillary Clinton, for her corporate minded and inspired candidacy. She, like Obama, has too much business inspired policies, to be truly dedicated to the needs of those with the least in our society. Still, Hillary has shown she has some connection to the deprived. Moreover, she isn't selling herself on a DREAM platform. Those voting for her, at least KNOW why they are voting for her. Her supporters don't have to link to some website for answers.

It is said that a society can best be judged by how it treats the WEAKEST among it's constituents, not the richest or the strongest. If we allow children to go to bed starving each night, not in some far away place, but our own backyard, we should be ashamed to call ourselves LIBERALS. The liberals I know, understand the debt we have being better off than most, and therefore invest time and money in alleviating suffering. I don't do golf courses in my free time, I do soup kitchens.

Dreams do not come without a price tag. John F. Kennedy knew that , as well as the young of his generation, who were eager to pay the price of his unbounded optimism. Are today's youth willing to commit to pay a price for the dreams Obama hands away for free? If his supporters want a victory at all costs, they would be well reminded that Kennedy and his supporters in his era, built their success the old-fashioned way-THEY EARNED IT!

Anything less is just a fantasy.

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Diane R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
1. Oh my god. DU is absolutely delusional today. This is bizzaro land.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Can't refute a single argument, can you? Bizzaro land indeed.This post is reality.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. Here, refuted:
In researching Obama ( yes, once upon a time people actually looked into what a candidate stands for and what their history is, without joining based on mere entreaty )it was said that he always enjoyed making people happy. It was also said he learned early on that rather than deal in specifics, it was easier to dispense mere hope of something, than delivering something. Getting bogged down in specifics was counter-productive to obtaining support.


Specifics:

Barack Obama: immigration reform and Latino Voters

Barack Obama and Foreign Policy (non Iraq)

Barack Obama and technology

Barack Obama and Health Care

Obama on HIV/AIDS

Obama Announces Rural Poverty Summit (Updated)

Obama urges alumni to help fight poverty

2004 Report on Illinois Poverty
(PDF)

Barack Obama and the 50 State Strategy

However, with his promise to auction 100% of cap-and-trade credits, Obama has put himself out ahead of all the other frontrunners. He deserves the praise he'll get for it.



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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. oh God
Do I have to "read the book" now, too?

I think the candidate with the most links should be declared the winner.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. I read the book, read the links.Still,nada. But hey some read
between the lines so it means whatever they want it to.I read just today on DU that Obama is an anti corporatist, when he invited, guaranteed them a seat at the table in h is own speech after Iowa and the same poster touted that Obama was for Universal Health care when he was the only candidate who doesn't support it.Fantasy indeed.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 05:35 AM
Response to Reply #17
151. Sara rethink please
The "corporatist" (aside from pharma, insurance and health lobby) are eager for universal health care. They recognize that their disproportunate and rising burden of health care costs is a tremendous impediment to overseas competition. They are some of the best allies available in the push for universal singlepayer health care.








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Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #151
175. And when the candidates can get the "aside from pharma, insurance and health lobby"
to be eager, then I will back them.

Until then, it is just hoping for change. I am too realistic for that.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. No book, facts and none of them link to Obama's site. So I think you are in denial! n/t
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. so childish
What on earth is it that I am denying that you think I shouldn't deny?
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. You have the nerve to call my response
childish?

I guess hypocrisy knows no bounds.

You are in denial, preferring to divert attention with a silly spin about "links." Why don't you try reading the facts and analyses instead!


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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #32
44. not that serious
I didn't give your posts nor my response much thought. There isn't anything of substance or interest there to debate. I think it was childish to say that I am in denial, and I asked you what you thought I was denying.

Don't you realize that you are supporting the OP's points with your behavior?

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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #44
60. No Two Americas
There is no recognition, because there is no there, there.
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michaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #14
155. If you read the main post I would think you could read the supplied links!
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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. You are a parody of all Obama supporters
"supporters don't have to link to some website for answers".....

Link, link, link, always a link......lol
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #18
114. How would you profess supporters give you answers?
You ask for answers, then laugh when some are given. That, to me, means you really don't want answers. And "a parody of all Obama supporters"? In what way - that they try to provide you with answers to your questions?

I would like to congratulate you for possibly being the most prolific poster I've ever seen, in the least amount of time, and for knowing everything there is to know. I've seen your posts around for the past couple of weeks, and I must say "welcome to DU" - it's great to have a new member who knows absolutely everything, and is happy to so arrogantly share that "knowledge" with those of us who are not as bright.
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #12
30. Thank you for the gravitas, ProSense.
:hug:
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #12
54. LOL. I knew the mandatory links would appear, as if by magic.
It's become a law of physics on DU. Mention anything negative about Barack, and the links erupt in another post, as if to say, "Read this, and your eyes will be opened and you will understand."

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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #54
91. ...
:spray: :evilgrin:
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Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #54
178. LOL!!
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. Take ONE MOMENT to climb down from your high, judgemental pedastal,
and live with me in my world.

Learn firsthand what it's like to be spit on as the refuse of the "liberal" world.

THEN, tell me what "bizarro" is.

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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
22. What's bizarre is all this rock star devotion to Obama & his empty rhetoric. People can see
right through him!!!

You and your Obama buddies don't like that because you want flash over substance!

Look at the shiny thing! Look! Look! Oprah likes him too! :eyes:

Do you really enjoy being just another groupie of just another airhead rock star? :thumbsdown:
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Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #22
87. Its like watching a football game and cheering for the "right" colored uniforms.


Unbelievable.
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pauldg0 Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #87
139. You hit it right on the head........
......Young Obama supporters, please see the light and listen to the rhetoric of John Edwards describing exactly how he would achieve his goals. Obama says empty words, I'm so sorry to say this about him, but it is very true !!

Please tell your friends, it's not to late.

I just heard that John Edwards is back on the ballot, is this true? Did he take a temporary leave.
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Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #139
177. A staffer had his name removed in Rhode Island and he requested that it be reinstated
They vote in March.

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pauldg0 Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #177
190. Your a great friend....
...hey do you think he's taking a break because of money....
maybe if hillary and obama split the delegates in the first half of the states all John Edwards has to do is come in late to restart...Mmmm that just popped in my brain. It does make sense because neither one of them would still have the delegates they need.

It could re-awaken everyone to John Edwards after they watching the other two boring empty rhetoric candidates for a while.

God, I like Obama and all; he is charismatic, but he just does not say a damn thing. Excuse me, but I just can't believe the empty headed positions his followers have. We need to have political science classes in high school, not college. Any way, I'm getting carried away from my original thought.

The point is John Edwards does not parallel either of those two.....hope he comes back to do something big !!
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michaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #22
156. At the age of 58 I think I know the difference between flash and substance.
Thanks, but no thanks, I prefer to make up my own mind and I find this man to be presidential, encouraging and intelligent. It appears to me that he sure gets "knocked around" a lot by the Clinton side. I liked Bill Clinton and I liked the way we lived in this country with him. But guess what...he is done now. So many people have said to me,"the nice thing about Hillary, is that we get Bill again too." Well, that appears to be a true statement, but....that time in history is over. It is time to move on. I am more than ready for a change, and since Edwards left, it is Obama who gets my vote.
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Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #156
164. Well stated.
I'm 56 and aqree completely with your statement. I don't want to build a bridge back to the 20th century. I also see this as Hillary saying, "I will do this for you. . ." and Obama saying "We will do this together. . ."

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Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #1
86. You think?
I can't disagree with a single thing he is saying here.

What exactly do you challenge, or is this more of the same of no there being there and you can't quantify it with specifics?
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venable Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
121. what is bizarre is obama's supporters denial of legit concerns.
i will support him if he gets the nom, and i hope he does now that it's down to those two...but i will never support his supporters who blindly, and I think a little bit stupidly, just tell us he's the one, and can not tell us why.


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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
2. I am proud to cast the first rec for this incredible piece of writing.
Edited on Sat Feb-02-08 02:12 PM by saracat
This is some closing argument CJP. I would vote for you for president.

Where are the critical thinkers in this election? I keep asking that question, and all I hear are crickets!

Thank you for perfectly illustrating the problems we face in this election.The world would be a better place if we had about 200 million of you!
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unapatriciated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #2
136. They stopped teaching critical thinking....
Edited on Sun Feb-03-08 01:47 AM by unapatriciated
It was that "No Child Left Behind" thing.
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #2
162. I share your sentiments
...and I'm proud to cast the 58th rec for this incredible piece of writing, as you say.
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BeatleBoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
3. A Level-Headed, Superior Post !!!
Edited on Sat Feb-02-08 02:17 PM by BeatleBoot
Reality bites.

Hopefully, they don't take the party off the cliff on their fantasy train, being the lemmings they are.


Think.

It's Patriotic.





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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
5. Kennedy's era, was not an era of ME,ME,ME.
Go back to the debates and count the number of times each one, Obama, Hillary and JE said the word "I". It only takes one all important I to turn run into ruin. Let's hope it doesn't come to that. Obama seems to be banking on the power of we, others, not so much.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
6. Nonsense! Also, was Edwards forced out by conspiracy or is he in?
What's a fantasy is pretending that Edwards was forced out by conspiracy when he simply couldn't attract more voters. What happened to his 2004 network and support?

After pushing the conspiracy, the claims comes that he just suspended his campaign and that he's still in.

Which is it?

Edwards supporters are trying their best, albeit unknowingly, to belittle his decision by claiming he could be forced out by conspiracy or threat. He made a choice, accept it.

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BeatleBoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. The Original Post had nothing to do with any of that.
Edited on Sat Feb-02-08 02:24 PM by BeatleBoot
So don't change the subject.

Take it somewhere else.


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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. The subject is fantasy! n/t
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BeatleBoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. You're proving the OP's point, one post at a time....
You don't know and you don't know that you don't know.



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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. A subject with which you are intimately familiar.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
7. When the "weakest" among us get nary of word appreciation, when we are thrown under the bus,
when we are tossed from place to place as refuse, with no place to go to be reminded that we have VALUE... then, yes, we should be ASHAMED to call our selves "liberals"!!

Bobby Kennedy would be ashamed of us!
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
15. Sorry dude. There's nothing "false" about "hope."
:-)
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BeatleBoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Lol!
False Hope.

Witty and to the point!



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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Except false hope
ever hear that one????

Truly scary. You aren't really that naive...or are you?
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. How can you get any hope from empty words?
:wtf:
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. Maybe you're just not listening.
I guess it's possible you've never read Obama's books, or bothered to learn anything about his background. But it really is offensive when DUers accuse Obama voters of being naive, of having "hope," of liking an empty suit.

Just because you don't bother to know anything about this candidate doesn't make you right. It just makes you uninformed.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. I haven't heard A PLAN. All I've seen is the AUDACITY of HYPE.
Not only that but Obama took WAY WAY WAY too much corporate money for me to EVER think he's going to work for the middle class/working class like me.

They OWN him. Period. :grr:

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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. Uh, there are plans galore in this very thread.
ProSense did a nice job of pulling some of this substance together for you. Scroll up and read before insisting "I haven't heard a PLAN."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4350490&mesg_id=4350915
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #38
50. So what about all those corporate donations? Why are you turning a blind eye to them?
Or are you the elite moneyed rich too?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #34
48. The (Unjustified) Hope of Audacity. N/T
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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. I have to read about Obama
to understand what he is going to do as President????

What is this? Mein Kampf?
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Mein Kampf??
You should really take a deep breath before you post anything like that, ever again in this forum.

Some of us actually like to be informed voters. Your mileage may vary, but don't accuse Obama supporters of being uninformed when you don't know what you're talking about.

And comparing "The Audacity of Hope" to "Mein Kampf" is just really beyond the pale.
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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. That I have to read about Obama
Edited on Sat Feb-02-08 03:41 PM by ClericJohnPreston
to know who he is as a candidate, SPEAKS TO EMPTY CAMPAIGN RHETORIC, NOT SPECIFICS!

Before you have the audacity to lecture me, try to step back, gain prespective, and see what it is like to be told you have read a bio to understand Obama.

Snake oil, anyone?
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. So I guess you were born knowing everything about John Edwards?
Looks like you missed his voting record.
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #41
98. Keyboard Warrior Syndrome.
I think I'll just add him to my ignore list now.
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #98
115. Good way to put it, ellisonz. NT
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #41
147. No, looks like he knows Edwards' record
Since the swiftboating of Edwards' record continues from the Obama camp his record deserves another mention. We Edwardians should never forget it was Obama and his lemmings who swiftboated Edwards. It wasn't Hillary.

Tip of my hat to PurityOfEssence for his great job researching Edwards' record.

PurityOfEssence (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Jan-06-08 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. Repost of Edwards' Senate Record notes

Much has been said about Edwards’ supposedly conservative term in the Senate. Like much “common wisdom”, this is largely unfounded.

When remembering that he came as a neophyte from a rather red state, it’s quite surprising to see just how populist he was on many key social issues. (Well, it’s not surprising to many of us, but to those of you who’ve been poisoned with the endless snideness about the “new” Edwards and the “old” Edwards, it should be an eye-opener.)

He only sponsored two bills, but he co-sponsored a whopping 203 in his six-year term. This is a partial list of them (yes, I omitted the Patriot Act and IWR; much has already been said about them) and bears a quick skimming. They’re in chronological order, so details can be found fairly easily. The two bills he sponsored were for research into the “fragile x” chromosome associated with mental retardation, and the “Spyware Control and Privacy Act”, an important early bulwark against attempts to compromise our computer privacy. This last one is a true civil-rights issue, taking on corporations and attempting to secure the rights of individuals, and it’s visionary stuff.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d106:SN03180:@@ ...

Russ Feingold said he was a “terrific asset” in getting campaign finance reform through. He was the person who deposed Lewinsky and Jordan in the impeachment trial; quite an important task to entrust to a newcomer in literally his first year in office. His opposition to Ashcroft in the confirmation hearings was vigorous and mesmerizing, even if it didn’t work. This is also the guy who tirelessly fought to keep the sunset provisions from being stripped out of the Patriot Act. His votes on labor and trade are solidly leftist, although he did vote for the China Trade Bill. Then again, since this was something Bill Clinton was solidly for, he was voting with his party. (Funny how Hillary supporters take him to task for this vote…) He also (along with Dodd and Biden) voted against the free trade bills with Singapore and Chile, unlike Senator Clinton, who voted for them.

Here’s a guy who constantly brought up the issue of “predatory lending” even though he hailed from a state with a huge banking and financial services industry. If you listen to or read his stump speeches from late ’02 and early ’03, you’ll wonder what the hell his detractors are talking about when they say that his populism is a new tack; his platform was economic and worker-oriented from the beginning, telling of how the Bush Administration was systematically shifting the burden of taxation from wealth to wages.

So here’s that partial list of the bills he co-sponsored. This is not a list of his votes, just those bills he actively got behind and worked to get passed. This is hardly the stuff of a closet conservative or an opportunist, as he’s been tarred, nor is it the record of someone who was just phoning it in. I would request, in interest of fairness, that the deriders among you at least skim through this VERY long list; it’s all pure fact.

When taking all this in context, it’s interesting to reflect on Kerry’s sneering that he probably couldn’t win re-election had he decided to run. Kerry may have been right on this point, but if so, it’s because of Edwards’ populism and social decency.

Details can be found here; each phrase separated by a comma is a particular bill, and in most cases attempt to use the bill’s title to lessen confusion and give the sense of the legislation.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/?&Db=d107&querybd ... (FLD004+@4((@1(Sen+Edwards++John))+01573)):

Sense of the Senate for funding lifestyle research for preventative medicine, Sense of the Senate honoring National Science Foundation, Sense of the Senate to preserve six day mail delivery, designating “biotechnology week”, Children’s Internet Safety Month, Joint Resolution against excessive campaign donations, to protect the civil rights of all Americans, Bi-partisan Campaign Reform, Restrict access to personal health and financial information, Establish a Center for National Social Work Research, provide more effective remedies for victims of sex discrimination in work, provide incentive for fair access to the internet for everyone, require fair availability of birth control, increase the minimum wage (’01), protect consumers in managed care programs, emergency relief for energy costs to small businesses, prohibit use of genetic information to discriminate on health coverage and employment, provide families with disabled children to buy into Medicaid, eliminate the loophole for interstate transporting of birds for fighting, provide funding to clean up contaminated land, informing veterans of available programs, Designating part of ANWR as wilderness, establish a digital network technology program, reduce the risk that innocent people be executed, restore funding for Social Security Block Grants, provide for equal coverage for mental health in insurance policies, amend Clean Air Act to reduce emissions from power plants, establish uniform election technology (sponsored by Dodd), extend modifications to funding for Medicare and Medicaid, Federal Funding to local governments to prosecute hate crimes, reinstate certain Social Security earnings exemptions for the blind, overhaul RR retirement plan to increase benefits, Establish a Nurse recruitment and retention program, amend FDA to provide greater access to affordable pharmaceuticals, Establish African American Museum within the Smithsonian, Federal funding for research of environmental factors in Breast Cancer, Increase hospital benefits under Medicare, Establish Tariff Quotas on milk protein imports, Federal funding for mental health community education, protect patients in managed care plans (again), establish Office on Women’s Health in HHS, increase the minimum wage, allow media coverage of trials, prohibit racial profiling, improve health care in rural areas, protect consumers in managed care plans, prohibiting trade of bear viscera, provide greater fairness in arbitration of motor vehicle franchises, provide adequate insurance coverage for immunosuppressive drugs, provide financial assistance for trade-affected communities, acquisition and improvement of child-care facilities, prohibit employment discrimination based on sexual orientation, establish programs to deal with nurse shortage, establish a National Cyber Defense Team to protect the internet’s infrastructure, provide services to prevent family violence, require criminal prosecution for securities fraud, reissuance of a rule on ergonomics, ensure safe pregnancy for all U.S. women, improve investigation and prosecution of rape cases with DNA evidence, improve national drought preparedness, increase the minimum wage (yet again), assistance in containing HIV/AIDS in foreign countries, emergency assistance for small-businesses affected by drought, child care and developmental block grants, provide economic security for America’s workers, enhance security for transporting nuclear waste, FEMA hazard mitigation grants, increase mental health benefits in health insurance, criminal prosecution for people who destroy evidence in securities fraud cases.

Is this the record of a corporate appeaser? Is this the record of someone just loafing about and collecting a paycheck?

Funny what you find when you read a little, isn’t it?

(end of post)

The Bush Cartel is Shivering In Its Boots About John Edwards: This is An Actual North Carolina GOP Alert Sent to a BuzzFlash Reader

A BUZZFLASH NEWS ANALYSIS

Below is a copy of an actual GOP alert sent out by the North Carolina Republican Party.

It illustrates how frightened the GOP is of Edwards spoiling the Neo-Confederacy "Southern Strategy" that the Grand Hypocrisy Party (GHP) depends upon to win presidential elections.

Sincerely,

Buzz

* * *

Dear XXXX,

Senator John Edwards' (D-NC) latest effort to package himself as a "mainstream North Carolinian" is entirely contradicted by a four-year voting record that consistently puts ultra-liberal special interests ahead of the people he represents.

CNN's Candy Crowley: "I want to ask you, lastly, about the political spectrum and where you are on it. You are often described as having a liberal voting record. The liberal groups tend to give you high ratings. The conservative groups give you low ratings. Are you a liberal Democrat?

John Edwards: "I'm a mainstream North Carolinian. I think my views and my values represent the values of most people in this country." (CNN's Inside Politics, January 2, 2003)

Bill Cobey, Chairman of the North Carolina Republican Party had the following response: "Senator Edwards, your voting record does not lie. 'Mainstream North Carolinians' don't vote like Georgetown Liberals."

Edwards made similar assertions in 1998 when he promised the people of North Carolina that he would be a moderate voice in the U.S. Senate. Edwards' record, however, reveals the liberal truth:

Edwards' Voting Record Matches Those Of Senators Ted Kennedy And Hillary Clinton

From 1999-2002, Edwards Voted With Senator Ted Kennedy 90% Of The Time. (CQ Vote Comparison, CQ Online Website, www.oncongresscq.com, 106th and 107th Congresses)

From 2001-2002, Edwards Voted With Senator Hillary Clinton 89% Of The Time. (CQ Vote Comparison, CQ Online Website, www.oncongresscq.com, 107th Congress)

Edwards' Liberal Record On Business/Job Growth

Edwards Received A 0% Rating From The Small Business Survival Committee For His Voting Record In 2001. (Small Business Survival Committee Website, www.sbsc.org, accessed Dec.1, 2002)

Edwards Received A 17% Rating From The National Federation Of Independent Business For His Voting Record In 2001. (National Federation Of Independent Business, www.nfib.com, accessed Dec. 1, 2002)

Edwards' Liberal Record On Education

Edwards Voted Against The Creation Of A Demonstration Public School Choice Voucher Program For Disadvantaged Children. (Amendment to S. 1, Roll Call #179: Rejected 41-58: R 38-11; D 3-46; I 0-1, June 12, 2001)

In 2000, Edwards Voted Against The Creation Of Tax-Free Education Savings Accounts For Children To Be Used In The Payment Of Public Or Private School Tuition. (S. 1134, Roll Call #33: Passed 61-37: R 52-2; D 9-35, March 2, 2000)

Edwards' Liberal Record On Abortion

In June Of 2000, Edwards Voted Against Tabling An Amendment That Would Have Repealed The Ban On Privately Funded Abortions At Overseas Military Facilities. (Amendment to S. 2549, Roll Call #134: Passed 50-49: R 48-6; D 2-43, June 20, 2000)

In October Of 1999, Edwards Voted Against Passage Of A Bill To Ban Partial-Birth Abortions. (S. 1692, Roll Call #340: Passed 63-34: R 48-3; D 14-31; I 1-0, October 21, 1999)

Edwards' Liberal Record On Health Care And Social Issues

Edwards Called For A Federal Prescription-Drug Benefit And Lamented Over The Lack Of Universal Health Insurance For Children. "Moving to health care, Edwards - his words being recorded by a National Public Radio reporter sitting near his feet - again called for a federal prescription-drug benefit and decried the lack of universal insurance coverage for children. 'In America,' he intoned, 'that's wrong, and we need to do something about it.'" (Eric Dyer, "Testing The Waters?" News & Record, June 23, 2002)

In 2001, Edwards Voted To Table An Amendment That Would Have Prohibited The Use Of Public Funds For Needle Exchange Programs In The District Of Columbia. (Amendment to H.R. 2994, Roll Call #328: Motion To Table Passed 53-47: R 5-44; D 47-3; I 1-0, November 7, 2001)

Edwards' Liberal Record On Taxes/Fiscal Responsibility

Edwards Voted Against President Bush's Bipartisan Tax Relief Package. (H.R. 1836, Roll Call #170: Passed 58-33: R 46-2; D 12-31, May 26, 2001)

Edwards Voted Against Permanent Repeal Of The Estate Tax. (H.R. 8, Roll Call #151: Failed 54-44: R 45-2; D 9-42, June 12, 2002)

In 2001, Edwards Voted Against A Capital Gains Tax Rate Reduction. (Amendment To H.R. 1836, Roll Call #115: Failed 47-51: R 40-8; D 7-43, May 21, 2001)

In 2000, Edwards Voted Against A Bill That Would Have Reduced Taxes On Married Couples. (H.R. 4810, Roll Call #215: Adopted 61-38: R 53-1; D 8-37, July 18, 2000)

In 2000, Edwards Voted Against A Temporary Suspension Of The Gasoline Tax. (S. 2285, Roll Call #80: Failed 43-56: R 43-12; D 0-44, April 11, 2000)

Edwards' Liberal Record On The Environment

Edwards Argued That President Bush's New Source Review Plan "Defies Common Sense." 'It defies common sense to me,' said Sen. John Edwards, D-N.C." (Karen Masterson, "Port Arthur Activist Testifies Against Easing Clean Air Laws," The Houston Chronicle, July 17, 2002)

AT ODDS WITH FELLOW DEMOCRATS

On Trade Promotion Authority

Edwards Disagrees With Kerry, Daschle And Lieberman On Trade Promotion Authority. Edwards voted against trade promotion authority, but Kerry, Daschle and Lieberman voted for it. (H.R. 3009, Roll Call #207: Passed 64-34: R 43-5; D 20-29; I 1-0, August 1, 2002)

On Common Sense Tort Reform

Edwards Disagrees With Lieberman On Tort Reform. Unlike his Senate colleague Lieberman, Edwards adamantly opposes liability limits and civil justice reform. (Jill Zuckman, "Medical Bill," Chicago Tribune, June 24, 2001; Senator Lieberman, Press Conference, July 15, 1999)

When Asked By Bob Novak, Edwards Could Not Recall A Single Conservative Position That He Has Taken On An Issue As Senator. "'I could give you an answer to that question if you give me a little time to think about it.' - Democratic presidential aspirant Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina, asked by columnist Robert D. Novak in...the American Spectator to recall any conservative position he's taken in the U.S. Senate ." (John McCaslin, "Dependably Liberal," The Washington Times, October 15, 2002)

http://www.buzzflash.com/analysis/03/01/14_Edwards.html

PurityOfEssence (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Dec-30-07 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #15
24. I agree; the repeated "fact" that he wasn't a populist to start with is simply wrong

If one looks at his record, one sees populism as a very clear through-line.

People wave the bloody shirt of Stephanopoulos' grilling of him as some kind of proof of his calumny, when those same people seem to forget that little Georgie's a Clinton operative of the first rank. His leap to prominence came from being a key member of Bill Clinton's 1992 campaign, and he's a friend as well as a rooter. He has no more journalistic objectivity than James Carville does, and it's a form of deception to not have it tattooed on his forehead as he masquerades as a reporter.

Edwards is a classic Southern populist: pro-affirmative action, constantly trying to raise the minimum wage, for civil rights, for healthcare for the poor, pro-union and on and on. His Senate record is actually quite good, and I've posted to that effect. Anyone who has issues with this should look up the 203 bills he co-sponsored as a Senator.

It's all very convenient to say that he was a hawkish Democrat who changed his ways, but you'll note that the media NEVER tries to foist off the lie that he was a corporatist or anything of the sort. Except for this series of bills--which are hardly clear-cut, as I point out above--his record has been solidly for the little guy from the beginning. He voted for the China Bill, but that was Bill Clinton's pet and he was voting with his party. He voted AGAINST free trade with Singapore and Chile, and he's consistently voted for worker's rights, union rights, ergonomic rules, environmental protections and the usual "little guy" concerns. It's simply a chickenshit lie that he's only now become some kind of populist; his record shows that he has been all along.

Lest we forget, voting against tax cuts isn't that much of a personal risk for a John Kerry from Massachusetts, but it sure as hell is for a first-termer from North Carolina.

People constantly try to make complex situations simple, but they fall into one of the most despicable and self-congratulatory traps of human hypocrisy: flatly dismissing others as mere caricatures while demanding that they and their champions be given break after break and accorded the elaborate complexity of the gods. It's human nature, and it's the sucky part of human nature.

As for your primary point about admitting one's mistakes, I fully agree: the macho, blockheaded, uber-male approach of most politicians (regardless of gender) is tiresome, and to them, admitting a mistake is tantamount to admitting sheer worthlessness or admitting that they might occasionally pull over and ask for directions. Many people decry the inability of people to admit a mistake, but when someone actually does it, he/she gets pounced upon and torn limb from limb. It's vulgar and immature.

Why I shied away from addressing this first is that letting the conversation veer that way tacitly reinforces the big ugly stupid black-and-white lie that he's truly changed. He hasn't. He was good then and he's good now. Yes, he got suckered with the IWR, but Tenet looked him right in the eyes and lied to him. Others did too. Can you trust a man who changes his mind? Hey, at least you know he HAS one. He's done something truly courageous, and deserves a point or two for it. He also deserves points for addressing the issue of poverty; it's a sure vote-loser, but it's THE RIGHT THING TO DO and it's been his cause from the beginning.

Things aren't black or white, and those who insist they are are either fools or skunks. The very way bills are characterized is a good illustration of this, and it's important to try to see things in their totality and in their historical context.

Oh, and welcome to the board. I'm in LA; where are you?

(end of post)

Edwards's Record as A Freshman Senator
Lawmaker Labored on Issues Such as Health Care, Intelligence and Trade

-snip-

Edwards has little in the way of concrete legislative achievements, but he gained attention on issues ranging from health care to intelligence to environmental protection.

While aspiring to build a national profile, Edwards also labored on issues important to his home state, such as proposing amendments to help textile workers who were losing their jobs to lower-wage workers in other nations. In recent weeks, he increasingly has raised trade issues in trying to differentiate himself from Kerry.

-snip-

He voted to support abortion rights, authorize the war in Iraq, require criminal background checks on buyers at gun shows, block the confirmation of some of President Bush's most conservative judicial nominees, and prohibit oil drilling in Alaska's Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.

-snip-

But it was the patients' bill of rights, which Edwards had championed in his 1998 Senate campaign, that proved to be his biggest accomplishment -- and disappointment.

-snip-

Edwards voted against trade pacts with Chile, Singapore and Africa, which Kerry supported. But he voted in 2000 to grant most-favored-nation trading status to China, as did Kerry and most other senators. "I think it's clear that Senator Kerry and I have very different records on trade," Edwards recently told reporters. On the same day, Kerry declared: "We have the same policy on trade -- exactly the same policy."

In discussing trade, Edwards focuses on the 1993 North American Free Trade Agreement, which was enacted with Kerry's support five years before Edwards entered the Senate. While his campaign statements assert that "Edwards has consistently opposed NAFTA," the North Carolina senator recently told New York Times editors that NAFTA "is an important part of our global economy," although he wants tougher protections for the environment and worker conditions.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A15414-20 ...

Clinton Defense Leader in Impeachment Trial

Kennedy-Edwards-McCain Patients' Bill of Rights

Kennedy-Edwards Minimum Wage Raise Laws

Vote Against Bush's First Taxgiveaway

Vote Against Bush's Second Taxgiveaway

Vote Against $87 Billion "I support Bush's War Bill"

Wrote Bill that allowed individuals to buy prescription drugs from Canada

Wrote and Sponsored Bill that would make sexual orientation a legally protected category in job discrimination

Wrote Sunset Provision into Patriot Act

Floor leader for Feingold-McCain Campaign Finance Reform.

Voted against the Chilean trade agreement, against the Caribbean trade agreement, against the Singapore trade agreement, against final passage of fast track for this president.

Actually defeated a Republican incumbent in a Red State who had the Helms Machine with him.

Edwards has a very good trade record. Let's compare him to St. Kerry, a prominent progressive who was in office the entire time Edwards was. Edwards is the closest thing to a protectionist that can get elected.

-snip-

Edwards voted against trade pacts with Chile, Singapore and Africa, which Kerry supported. But he voted in 2000 to grant most-favored-nation trading status to China, as did Kerry and most other senators.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A15414-20 ...

St. Kerry

07/07/2003 U.S.-Chile Free Trade Agreement Implementation Act NV
07/07/2003 U.S.-Singapore Free Trade Agreement Implementation Act NV
08/01/2002 Trade Act of 2002 Y
09/19/2000 U.S.-China Relations Act of 2000 Y
09/13/2000 China Nonproliferation Act Y
05/11/2000 Africa Free Trade bill Y
11/03/1999 Africa Free Trade bill Y
07/17/1997 Most Favored Nation Repeal Amendment N

Edwards

07/07/2003 U.S.-Chile Free Trade Agreement Implementation Act N
07/07/2003 U.S.-Singapore Free Trade Agreement Implementation Act N
08/01/2002 Trade Act of 2002 N
09/19/2000 U.S.-China Relations Act of 2000 Y
09/13/2000 China Nonproliferation Act Y
05/11/2000 Africa Free Trade bill N
11/03/1999 Africa Free Trade bill N

Edwards voted right on every trade bill except one and that one was Bill Clinton's baby. It also was not as clear cut as it appears in retrospect. Edwards explained why he voted for it and it was a perfectly reasonable belief to have, a belief most of his Democratic colleagues shared. Edwards also opposed the Peru, South Korea, and CAFTA trade bills after he left office. Given his record he presumably opposed Oman as well, although I have not seen a statement from him on it. Edwards has opposed every trade bill to come down the pike in his career except one that noted rethug lites like Ted Kennedy and Patrick Leahy voted for, as did most Democrats.

Edwards can seriously be attacked for once supporting the war but the Big Lie, which picked up steam in February of 2007 (what happened that month?), that he was not a populist until recently and especially that he sucked on trade is nonsensical.

Edwards' trade record is identical to Ted Kennedy's:

07/07/2003 U.S.-Chile Free Trade Agreement Implementation Act N
07/07/2003 U.S.-Singapore Free Trade Agreement Implementation Act N
08/01/2002 Trade Act of 2002 N
09/19/2000 U.S.-China Relations Act of 2000 Y
09/13/2000 China Nonproliferation Act Y
05/11/2000 Africa Free Trade bill N
11/03/1999 Africa Free Trade bill NV

Does Kennedy suck on trade too? I hear he is a big Rethuglican in sheep's clothing! What has he done for the poor? Probably nothing. He is rich too I hear!
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. I didn't need a bio to understand Obama.
But when people like you run around screaming about empty rhetoric while knowing nothing, when people like you compare a book by a Democratic US Senator to MEIN KAMPF, I will lecture you, and lecture you again. I won't stop.

You may find it to be audacious. But I find your comparison to be beyond the pale. And I'll lecture you on that fine point whenever I see fit. You might want to just go ahead and put me on ignore the next time you feel the need to throw around a book written by Adolph Hitler just to make your point.
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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. Comment on the thread
Edited on Sat Feb-02-08 03:58 PM by ClericJohnPreston
not on a tangential post within the thread. That is pure distraction, a feint from the main issue, which came up through LINKS.

I'm sick of you Obamites and your links. I've done the research, have you? Give me SPECIFIC POLICY ON POVERTY? CAN YOU? WITHOUT A LINK??? HMMMM?


False indignation, is still just that.....
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. First things first.
You've been here since January of this year and I've been here since January of 2001. So I'm not really sure I'm persuaded by your self-appointment as Barrister of Thread Rules on Democratic Underground.

And if you're too lazy to read a book, let alone click on a link, then I'm not sure anything I write is going to satisfy your need for keyboard, instant politics.

And I'm as sick of self-righteous newbies as you are of "Obamites." Never in all my years on Democratic Underground have I ever seen someone use "Mein Kampf" as a way to tell me my candidate sucks. But, what the hell, since you insist I haven't done the research, here's just a taste of Obama on poverty, linkless.

When Obama speaks of poverty policy, he often speaks of it in terms of race. He essentially wishes to take Johnson's War on Poverty and sell it again, because he feels it largely failed because conservatives used it to turn much of the country against the concept of a "welfare state." Now, that's a political and historical reality. And he speaks of the dysfunction of the inner city, the patronage that still exists from back when southern Blacks first moved into the northern inner cities. One of his platforms toward reducing poverty is to blast the inner cities with programs urging teenaged girls to remain in school and to not have children out of wedlock. He believes this is best achieved on the community level, using teachers, parents, and clergy, but that the program should be federal, it should be transparent, and we should use our brightest minds and most popular figures to unite the country against the cycle of poverty that begins with teenage pregnancy.

That's just for starters. If you really are interested in learning more and feel open-minded enough to listen, I'll give you another dose. But I'm not holding my breath because I don't think you're being honest about learning.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #49
65. You obviously have NOT learned a thing in all the "years" you've been here.
Being a "newbie" or not has absolutely nothing to do with whether someone one is worthy of posting here on DU.

FYI, the person you are attacking strikes me as being far better educated and politically savvy than you.

It is obvious that you are lapping up what Oprah is selling you-Obama, one of her "favorite things". :eyes:


Oh, and BTW, The rethuglicans thrive on Attacking the Messenger, INSTEAD of the message.

Look no further than how Rush & O'Lielly focus on Al Gores weight or John Edwards haircut. :puke:
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. So I guess you haven't read my post, or the other one below, about...
... inner-city poverty, my most passionate issue. That's your preogative, I suppose.

You do know that I was a passionate Edwards supporter, right?

You're telling me (who worked in Iowa on the Edwards campaign, who has been a convention delegate thrice, who remains a political strategist here in Cincinnati) that i'm not educated and politically savvy? My goodness, how little you know about those you attack.

I will always attack any messenger who compares a brilliant book written by a progressive US Senator to "Mein Kampf." At least you knwo where I stand.

I've now refuted the OP's claims that Obama supporters can't put his policy positions into their own words twice. What more will it take to satisfy you?
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. What about the MILLIONS & MILLIONS OF DOLLARS Obama took from Corporations?
You still have not answered my question about this from upthread.

To me, that is the crux of the matter with what is wrong with Obama-the Elephant in the room as they say.

Sorry, but I can't have "hope" about ANY candidate who is OWNED by the corporate powers that be.


p.s. Good that you once supported Edwards. But Obama is NO Edwards and certainly NO JFK.
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #70
73. You know what? Even Edwards supporters shouldn't try this tack.
Fact: Every politician is "owned" by outside powers. John Edwards was "owned" by the Trial Lawyers Lobby.

Now, you know what else? I don't believe for one moment that Barack Obama is "owned" by corporate America or that John Edwards' work on a hedge fund means he was "owned" by Wall Street. These are some of the tactics used against the Clinton campaign on both Obama and Edwards, and I don't buy it.

As I wrote above, Obama believes that community organizers and the state should partner with corporate contractors as a way to provide jobs and training to ex-felons. I'm not the kind of person who believes that corporations should be shut out from government influence any more than lobbies are. I'm the kind of person who believes in wily politicians like Obama and Edwards... wily politicians who know how to manipulate corporations in becoming partners in better government that benefits all, not just a wealthy percentage at the top.

I recognize that you're trying to refute my beliefs by forcing me to disavow Obama accepting campaign funds from corporations. I'm not going to do that in Obama's defense any more than I would in Edwards' defense. It's not realistic. And I do believe that neither Edwards, Obama nor Clinton are "owned" by corporations. We are not freaking Republicans.

If that's the number one reason why you can't vote for Obama, that's ok. It really is. I'm not there with you, but I support your decision and hope that you can get behind Clinton, because Edwards is no longer a candidate. If Edwards is the one who most models your ideals, your vision of political purity, then I think you should just stick with him.

And I don't think Obama is JFK, or Edwards. I think he's Barack Obama, and for me, that's more than enough.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #73
102. What Edwards got was a DROP in the bucket compared to the MILLIONS & MILLIONS that Obama got.
Be honest now. You simply can't compare the two.

The MILLIONS & MILLIONS both Hillary & Obama took proves beyond a doubt that they are both IN FACT owned by the corporations which makes them rethuglicans in dem clothing!

You most certainly are living in fantasy world if you think all those millions don't corrupt the purity of any message they try to send.

Corporations have proven themselves to be the enemy of the middle class, working class and poor. They will crush all of us to get those profits! Make NO mistake about that!
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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #67
85. You've linked
taken my comments out of context in a SUB-THREAD, and haven't proven any point of specificity. You haven't contested the entire OP regarding hopes and dreams.

However, I have a question of you. What does this mean:

"If we just BELIEVE in HOPE and CHANGE, there is no way we can LOSE".

It is an Obamite sig line.

ISN'T IT MERE WISHES AND FANTASY, THE OP OF THIS THREAD????????

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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #85
92. No, It is not mere wishes and fantasy.
That answers your question. I've really attempted more than a few times in this thread to explain to you, in my own words (as dictated as a condition in your OP), why Obama is not made of mere wishes and fantasy, but in fact has substance of policy.

Especially when it comes to the inner-city and rural poor. Do you feel that the policy I outlined is in any way, say, "dreamy?" I'd welcome that thoughtful kind of discussion.

Now, if you want to just concede that point and now turn to having your readers defend the sig lines of Obama supporters, that's fine, but I don't think I want to play under the new (ridiculous) rules.
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pauldg0 Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #67
140. Kiddo.............
..I like Obama, but...........I have to tell you this, I've been following this primary from the get-go. I pray you see that Mr. Obama is sending hope as an empty message. Please see that Edwards had a detailed plan for everything. Empty rhetoric sounds like a dirty phrase; yes, but more like he does not committ himself to anything.

I know you will make a sound choice !!
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #49
154. Self-Delete n/t
Edited on Sun Feb-03-08 07:10 AM by Stand and Fight
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #39
61. Snakeoil Salesman is exactly what I was thinking. Brought to you by Oprah. nt
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #29
51. you can't be serious
The posters you are criticizing on this thread are some of the best minds at DU, some of the best informed people anywhere. We have all thoroughly examined and analyzed the material you are suggesting we examine. You must know that, and calling people uninformed when they do not agree with you betrays a lack of substance to your arguments and thinking - exactly what the OP said was the problem with the Obama campaign.
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #51
56. In my own defense...
... I've been here since 2001, and can assure you that some of the best minds at DU, some of the best informed people anywhere, are also supporting Obama. We've kind of split the brain trust here in 2008, much like we did in 2004.

When people tell me they won't read Obama's book, they won't look into the substance of his policy and the gravitas in his words, I have every right to characterize them as making an uninformed judgement on Barack Obama. It's the very definition of the word, frankly.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. understood
"...of the best minds at DU, some of the best informed people anywhere, are also supporting Obama."

I have no doubt of that.

Why not in your own words make the persuasive argument, then?

You may not agree with Edwards supporters, but no one ever has any doubt as to where they stand. That is why his character must be attacked.

I have read and heard everything from Obama that is available. I still do not have any clarity as to where his supporters stand, what the Obama movement represents. It may represent wonderful things - I don't know.

I support Edwards because I know whom he is calling to action, what they stand for, who they are and where they want to go. In a representative democracy, we are not selecting the next Pope. We must look at what a leader is bringing out in people, as that is the most important thing.

I stand with the Edwards supporters, and there is no ambiguity, no need to de-code what they are saying, no need for hope or belief, and no inconsistencies between what Edwards is saying and what people are hearing and responding to.

If I could say that about Obama - and I am more than willing to - I would support him in a heartbeat. But I cannot.
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. I encourage you to continue to stand with Edwards supporters.
In 2004, I trekked to Iowa and passionately worked for Edwards. In 2004, I came home to Ohio, stood on freezing street corners, waving signs, handing out literature, begging for Buckeyes to give John Edwards the victory he deserved in my home state.

I've always been an Edwards supporter. I am not in any way at odds with Edwards supporters.

I came upon my 2008 decision with a heavy heart. I read "The Audacity of Hope" and, comparing it with my feelings for Edwards after reading "Four Trials." I felt similarly... that Obama was a fighter, that he was restless, that he was a passionate and committed community activist, that he understood inner city poverty as well as John Edwards but honestly somewhat better. He was able to put into words the cycle of poverty and the GOP-led backlash against the Johnson War on Poverty that has held this nation captive and torn since the 1960's. That's just one example of how I was led by Obama to give my vote to him. I listen carefully to his words and while I do not possess his gifts of oratory, I've had little difficulty convincing friends and family members that he is deserving of their vote, as well.

I'm not anti-Hillary, and I remain pro-Edwards. I happen to think Obama-Edwards would be my personal dream ticket. I admire Obama most for his passionate 2002 anti-war speech, and I admire Edwards most for having the guts to say he was wrong to vote for the IWR.

So really when I think about it, Two Americas, I don't think you and I are all that different.
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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. But I think you are
The comment I made that set you off was in response to telling me I had to read a bio to know your candidate. My flippant response was to your saying I was comparing apples to oranges, which I wasn't.

Moving on...even above, if you read the paragraph you wrote about poverty, THERE ARE NO SPECIFICS, JUST GLIB GENERALIZATIONS.

I WANT TO SEE YOUR POINT AND I AM GIVING YOU EVERY OPORTUNITY TO EXPRESS IT.

I'm happy to hear you campaigned for Edwards, and that Obama inspires you. Just tell me HOW Obama is going to bring jobs to the inner city? HOW? Specifics, please?
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. Well, at least you admitted the "Mein Kampf" response was flippant.
I'd go even further and call it outrageously offensive, but that's just me.

OK, here's a specific way in which Obama wants to bring jobs to the inner city. He recognizes that, sadly, prison culture has become almost acceptable in the inner city, almost a badge of courage. He recognizes that one of the obstacles is that in the absence of decent wages for labor in the inner city, many young people turn to a life of drug dealing to make a decent living, and that leads them to years behind bars. Even if they are rehabilitated in prison, they return to the city as an ex-felon, and most employers won't dare take a chance on them.

So, Obama proposes that government should partner with the private sector contracting industry on a program in which employers would be encouraged through tax benefits to hire and train ex-felons on projects that are wholly community-based. Insulating homes and offices to make them more energy-efficient, for example. Or how about building computers, and laying broadband lines that bring the power of the internet (and the coming Singularity) to the rural and inner-city poor? He argues that as expensive as these programs may be, any drop in recidivism would pay for the program itself. Incarceration is extraordinarily expensive to the state, and a circular solution, packaged by community leaders, would be very attractive to government and business alike.

So there's one of Obama's specific points, in my own words. I believe I made another in a direct response to you, above.
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lisainmilo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #66
135. We already have such a program
WOTC (work opportunity tax credit)...:shrug:
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unapatriciated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #135
138. I thought the same thing when I read it....
so we need to give them even more corporate tax breaks?:crazy:
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #59
72. thank you
Edited on Sat Feb-02-08 05:45 PM by Two Americas
I understand now. I agree - you and I are not all that different.

Nothing we are saying here need be seen as a threat to your view of this. It is, after all, a disagreement about methods and approaches not about principles and ideals

I would appeal to you from the bottom of my heart about something. I went through this in the late 60's along with millions of others - the resignation, the defeat, the "settling for," the need to place hope somewhere, the need to let go of dreams because it was too painful to hold onto them, the bittersweet pill of looking for comfort in the midst of ruin and despair, that strange numbness. If you swallow that pill of false hope, the effects will last for decades.

I don't know what the answer is yet, VolcanoJen, what the alternative is. However, I am certain that the party is offering us a poison pill. Fight the right wingers and vote for the lesser of two evils. But, please, don't touch that pill.
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. And thank you, too.
Thank you for speaking to me with a respectful tone. I really do believe you listened to me, and I have listened to you. And I really do just want to hug you for that. :hug:

I hear what you are saying about a "pill of false hope." I don't see it the way you do, and I actually do believe Obama is the real thing, win or lose. I do see him as an alternative, and I think that's exactly what has DUers at each other's throats. I do view Clinton as the establishment candidate, and Obama as the candidate of the people. It may very well not work out in the end.

But there is one thing I will always be grateful to Barack Obama for. After the bitter defeats of 2000, and especially 2004, I was so very full of anger and disillusionment. I didn't ever think I'd come to a place where I could really look forward into what he's challenging us to become. It may sound flowery or not of substance to so many here, but it has touched me on a deeply personal level. He has, in fact, changed forever the way I will view politics. Win or lose, I want to thank him for making me, well, happy again, when I thought all was lost.
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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. VolcanoJen
Edited on Sat Feb-02-08 06:06 PM by ClericJohnPreston
I have just one point to make to you.

You have read my post and arguments. Tell me if this actual sig line, no parody, and accompanying thread make you nervous at all:

"If we just BELIEVE in HOPE and CHANGE, there is no way we can LOSE."

Do you agree with that premise? How dashed will hope be, if , as I wrote, most are here because it is as if you are all collective "winners". I find this message, HOWEVER PERSONALLY ATTRACTIVE, highly MANIPULATIVE.

I can find for you the exact quote where Obama states long ago, that he learned it is easier to SELL hope, than give specifics.

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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. ClericJohnPreston
Quit moving the bar. Quit gaming your own damned thread.

What do you think about one of Obama's plans to bring jobs to the inner city, the one that I put into my own words, as prescribed by you as the original poster? You said Obama supporters can't put their support of him into their own words, and when I jumped over your bar (with much finesse), you decided to move it.

I've told you I think your arguments are bunk, honestly. I think you don't like to be refuted. I think you have already settled on your own personal meme, and I encourage you to just go ahead and run with it. But when you ask Obama supporters to put their passion into their own words and they do, maybe you should read those words and acknowledge the frailty of your argument.

You have far more than one point to make to me. I still fail to see what that point is, but I have attempted to reason with you using my own words, as you requested. I'm not going to allow you to draw me back in to this without hearing what you think of but one of Obama's plans to bring jobs to the inner city. IN SPECIFIC as YOU REQUESTED with your AFFINITY for ALL CAPS.

Since you can't find a candidate, how about finding something to believe in and work for, and stop tearing down and de-constructing? I happen to think you suck at honest debate. Honestly.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #74
78. completely valid
"Win or lose, I want to thank him for making me, well, happy again, when I thought all was lost."

That is completely valid reasoning and I fully understand.

Just be careful - I think there was an orchestrated effort to achieve just what you are feeling, and I fear that we are being emotionally manipulated. Give my idea of a "poison pill" some consideration. In exchange for being able to feel happy again and escape our personal despair, what are we covertly being asked to surrender?

I think many Edwards supporters - I know this is true for me - are worried for people here, not trying to attack them. See what I mean?

One thing we can say - whatever it is the party leadership (and of course the MSM) is doing, can you see the effect? Two people such as you and I who are kindred spirits, are being driven apart.

Just keep your eyes open is all I ask, and don't be quick to judge those of us who are seeking to eliminate the source of the unhappiness and despair, rather than to accept something in our desperation that may only give temporary relief and come at too high a price in the long run. We are still on your side.

Thanks for considering my point of view about this. :hug:
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. I will continue to consider your point of view thoughtfuly...
... and ask only for you to consider mine, in friendly return.

I've not been quick to judge, but rather quick to defend and debate. I encourage honest and open argumentation. The problem I have with the OP of this thread is that he has been refuted more than a few times within this thread, and he keeps moving the bar, and is holding on ever-so-precariously to his own meme. It's just not worthy of the spirit of the argument, I feel.

Yes, I know what you're saying. Yes, I shall continue to consider it. Yes, I hold on to at least 25% of my old cynicism, too.

:hug:

And thank you for the most intelligent discourse (and fun!) I've experienced on DU in ages. Very happy to know you!! :hug:
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #78
96. I thought of something else.
When you wrote, "I think there was an orchestrated effort to achieve just what you are feeling, and I fear that we are being emotionally manipulated," well, I just re-read that in a more meaningful (not initial, knee-jerk dismissive) way.

That's kind of the downside of Obama, in a way. There does seem to be this groundswell, this movement. It can be misinterpreted. I'm also certain that many whom are now in it might have been swept up without really considering what they were about to become a part of. I think that is more than fair, and I'd really be a fool to not acknowledge that.

But I can only honestly reference my own experience, right? What that "feeling" is. And for me, well, it was very difficult to decide to just support Obama this time around. I made the decision awhile ago that I felt Clinton was an establishment candidate and that Obama and Edwards were the alternative candidates (those three were always the viable ones to me). And then I decided, after reading his book and really comparing him to Edwards, that I thought Obama spoke to me just a wee bit better than Edwards did.

What's weird is that I never imagined Obama would be where he is now. My point of reference is that I chose him early, and I felt he was the best alternative candidate. I never in my wildest dreams thought he'd end up beating Edwards, I just always thought Edwards would be the eventual nominee and I'd be perfectly thrilled with that.

To see this huge surge of support toward Obama is a little strange for me. I don't feel caught up in it at all because I never, ever saw it coming.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #96
100. that is great
You are being so honest and sincere here, and it rings so true. Most people (myself included) hide behind a mask of opinions and partisanship and positions. Human beings are a little more complex than that.

I say let's support each other. Let's be suspicious of that which sets us at each other's throats. Let's give room for people to breathe, to be more honest and open, to take more chances with each other.
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quakerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #74
130. I want to thank you both
for the first sign of civility and potential unity that i have seen since coming to DU.

Personaly I think we need hope almost as much as policy. I look around at my peers and something like 8 of 10 dont bother to register. Because they dont have any hope. Without hope, you dont even attempt policy, you just accept what comes.
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desertflamingo Donating Member (152 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #56
120. ummm...
when i have to read a candidate's book to figure out what the hell he/she is talking about or for,then... i'm thinking i want to vote for someone else. what i LOVE about edwards is that when the man speaks i don't have to scratch my head, go home and read his book, read editorials, wait for the commentators to tell me what he meant, etc., etc. i have watched and listened to obama and aside from the fact that i CANNOT STAND HIM, i don't know what the hell he's REALLY saying or what he's REALLY for and i'm pretty educated and kinda intelligent. he's too slick and slimy for me and his bullshit change change hope hope CRAP drives me insane. i've been around the block enough times to know bullshit when i hear it.
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unc70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #29
82. Disagreement is not ignorance. "Informed" is not always the path to "Truth".
Do not assume that those who disagree with you or your candidate are "uninformed" or unwilling to read his books or his speeches or his debates or anything else. Some of those who you now question have been discussing these things in depth at DU for quite some time.

When you dismiss them and their opinions as having less value than your own because they do not agree with you, you are making the very point you attempt to refute. So climb off your high horse and give a rest to the sanctimony. Try listening to those who might disagree with you and who present a thoughtful statement of their positions. You might well still disagree with them, even have valid counter-arguments, but you would need to engage the discussion with them if you would seek to change their minds.
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #82
84. I feel you haven't read through the thread.
I'm commenting directly to the OP and others in the thread, who refuse to click on links, or compare Obama's book to "Mein Kampf." I call them uninformed because they specifically state that they are not interested in said links and books.

Read a little further and you'll see that many of us in this thread, myself included, are listening to each other, and actually reaching one another.

Could you really, after reading a bit further still, really say that I am not engaging in discussion and seeking to change minds in my responses?

I hear what you're saying, but you're really mischaracterizing the essence of the conversation, all the while being a bit pithy.
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unc70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #84
94. I read the entire thread before I began the post.
I chose to ignore things like the M.K. reference and its followup. But basing an argument on a claim that you think people are uniformed and need to click on a group of links so that they will suddenly be clear and able to see the glory of Obama (or any candidate) eventually becomes insulting to all those on DU who think and research their positions and think some more before they post. I know you have been officially here since 2001, back when I only lurked.

Your last post in reply to me is a clear example of exactly the point I made in the previous post. You dismissed me with a claim that I had not read the rest of the thread. I had read it, save any late posts while I was actually composing my post.

I personally have read much of Obama's books, speeches, debates, and interviews. I am unsettled by a certain elasticity with facts, details, timelines, and personal history. I have come to these almost entirely without relying on anything except my own reading or listening to original sources: transcripts, video, books, and sometimes my direct observations. Dismissing my position as being uniformed and easily remedied if I were to just follow the links is personally insulting. I sense that this is true for many others.

How would you feel if you were told you didn't understand anything about poverty and needed to follow some links so you could become "informed" and could get with the program?


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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #94
97. Well, you've still mischaracterized the discussion.
I'm sorry you don't care for my tone, or that you felt dismissed. It was very difficult to discern that you had actually read the entire thread, judging by the way you seem to have misunderstood it.

As far as "how would I feel," well, I wouldn't take it personally. Absolutely nobody wrote "you don't understand anything about poverty, click this link and become informed." Rather, the discussion was, "Here are some links to Obama's position on poverty." How could you possibly take something like that as an insult of ignorance? What you implied happened, did not in fact happen.

I made every attempt to put into my own words how I viewed Obama's postions on, for example, inner city poverty and joblessness. If you have read very much about a candidate and still do not support him, then I think that's a very informed decision. I've read what you have, and have reached a different conclusion.

It doesn't make either of us right. But I never accused you of being an uninformed voter; I took issue with the fact that certain commenters were choosing to stick with a meme that I was challenging.
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unc70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #97
116. Let me play back what you have said, then tell me that I mischaracterized!!
Note that this thread was at about post 76 when I started my first post in it and had prgressed considerably by the time I finished my post (having a telephone call along the way). While I was posting, you started a somewhat mellower sub-thread. But you still continue with what comes across as a chip on your shoulder and considerable self-righteousness. You conversion to Obama still seems nearly religious.

Here are a few of the posts and statements you have made. You continue to belittle various posters, including me. Maybe it is hard for you to see how your posts might appear to others:


"Maybe you're just not listening. ... I guess it's possible you've never read Obama's books, or bothered to learn anything about his background."

"So I guess you haven't read my post, or the other one below, about..."

"I feel you haven't read through the thread.

"Well, you've still mischaracterized the discussion. ... It doesn't make either of us right."

With the last statement, while neither of us might be right, you just said that I had been wrong. I wasn't trying to pick a fight. I have mostly been trying to mellow out, catch up on some work and family concerns, and (like JRE) cheer on the Tar Heels.

Sometimes being old and cynical means that I remember that JFK wasn't even "the JFK" of his time. I no longer have my Vaughn Meador album (is it available in CD?), or the American pilot of TW3, or a lot of other things.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 06:57 AM
Response to Reply #29
153. I've read both of his books...
In fact they're right behind me on my bookshelf. I simply do not believe the hype, nor will I buy into it. America needs more than "hope." Read up sometime on what some of the greatest minds had to say about hope.

Try being homeless and coping with hope.
Try figuring out how to pay the rent with hope.
Try getting an education and paying for it with hope.
Try feeding your family with hope.
Try explaining to your wife that you've been laid off with hope.
Try finding out that your job was shipped overseas with hope.

And the list could go on and on... Now, you tell me, do you want a message of hope or a plan to end the madness. I wiped my ass with hope when I was homeless and came up with nothing but shit. It was only when I had a clear cut plan and real help from others that I got CHANGE AND RESULTS!

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madmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #29
158. Have you ever read "Living History" by Hillary Rodham Clinton?
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madmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #158
160. crickets!!!!!!...why am I not surprised.
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Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #15
90. Hoping for Change, I see
Well hope in one hand and spit in another and get back to me as to which one fills up first.

:rofl:
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
21. I was an Edwards supporter from the beginning and I will be voting for Obama.
Edited on Sat Feb-02-08 02:58 PM by Political Heretic
I'm sick of people who get so married to a single candidate that they can't accept it when that person is no longer a candidate for office.

I'm looking at the remaining two choices for Democratic nominee, favoring one, and knowing that the race is close, so I want to do my part to see that the candidate I prefer out of the candidates still running gets the nomination.

I don't need to write some massive tome to explain that.
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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Funny how people react
when they are made to see themselves uncomfortably in a mirror, or mirrored in writing.

That bad feeling, which AUTOMATICALLY forces you to shut down the message and marginalize the messenger is called :

COGNITIVE DISSONANCE!
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #25
104. The assumption that anyone who disagrees with you must be shutting down the message is called
arrogant egotism

I prefer to think that we just disagree.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. did it ever occur to you...
...that other people may be looking a little more deeply at politics - something beyond "hey suckers your team lost get over it" and obsessing over one's personal choice?

"I'm looking at the remaining two choices for Democratic nominee, favoring one, and knowing that the race is close, so I want to do my part to see that the candidate I prefer out of the candidates still running gets the nomination."

Good for you. I, I, I, me, me, me. How are any of us interfering with your pursuit of doing everything you can to impose your personal preference on others? How are you or your efforts harmed by this discussion here?

I am glad that you have your favorite, have made your choice, and that you think everyone else should agree with you. Now what?

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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #27
107. No. It did not occur to me that anyone might be looking at politics more deeply than me.
So here again is what I said when I decided to support Obama over Clinton after Edwards dropped out of the race:

I throw my support behind Barak Obama.

It will be a different kind of campaign, with different kinds of issues. Obama's focus is different, its not the same kind of populism that Edwards managed to briefly inject into politics. It's not as "liberal" in some respects, its not as strongly married to labor and other things.

But it IS a lot of things as well. Obama is a democrat, that much is clear. And as a true democrat, even if he is more moderate on some issues, he represents a clear alternative to Republican rule. He is an outsider, young and idealistic when it comes to change in Washington - he is these things right at a time when I feel the country needs it the most. He speaks of message of unity. That has led some to criticize him, fearing that he means caving into corrupt republican politicians like so many democratic washington insiders have done. I'm not sure how you can get that from his message. When he speaks of unity, he speaks in truly inspiring ways about how the time has come to unite the people.

Because when you strip away all the political spin, and the partisan entrenchment, the people of the United States actually SHARE many core beliefs and expectations for their government. A majority of ordinary people on both sides of the isle believe that we have a health care crisis. A majority of ordinary people on both sides of the isle believe that this war was either ill-advised or ill-executed or both, and that it is hurting us economically, hurting us diplomatically and that its time we brought it to a close. A majority of ordinary people on both sides of the isle believe that massive out of control spending and deficits combined with legal exemptions allowing multi-billion dollar corporations to pay less in taxes than a middle-class family is a failure of our system - regardless of what they think about higher or lower taxes in general or about the spending priorities of washington. A majority of ordinary people across both sides of the isle feel that the protection of constitutional rights for American Citizens matter, and that accountability in government is tragically missing.

The disconnect is between the polarizing propaganda of beltway politicians and the establishment media consistently bombarding the airwaves speaking for the American people and telling them what they believe. While reseach consistently indicates that when partisan rhetoric is stripped away, the American people are overwhelmingly in favor of a richer, progressive more community oriented America. It is time for a leader who will unite ordinary people across political divides around these common goals. That message of unity is not some secret scheme. It is the vision for a better tomorrow.

John Edwards shared that vision in common with Barak Obama. And while John Edward's emphasis was (I feel courageously) on taking on the power of corporate rule, I believe Obama's message, even if carrying a different issue focus, carries on that same spirit of unity and optimism that inspired me to become involved in the Edward's campaign. I don't now support Barak Obama crestfallen as if he were some unpalettable last option. Rather, I support him with great optimism, with a willingness to take a risk on a brilliant man who in many ways has not yet been entrenched and molded into any one category of politician. That freshness, that brilliance, and that optimism is something I'm willing to hope in. And vote for.

And, additionally, here is what I said that any democratic congress and democratic president gets us:

It ends legislative or executive debate about the right to choose.

It ends an aggressive anti-GLBT agenda that includes things like proposed constitutional amendments. We all know democrats are not doing enough to stand for full equality, but this reality is still the same.

In fact, across the spectrum on social issues a democratically controlled federal government - even a centrist one - effectively puts a "moratorium" on that dimension of the radical conservative agenda.

It allows for the removal of more than just the current president. Yes, I am aware that the current president is gone no matter which way the election goes. However, if a republican is elected, then the standard neo-conservatives that have been in the top places of administrations for the last thirty years continue to have place in Washington. A democratic president - of any stripe - means the end to the appointment of neoconservative nutcases like we have endured. Yes, even those horrible dreaded "centrists" would not appoint the likes of Alberto Gonzales, or Rumsfeld or Ashcroft, or Rice.

It allows us to begin to restore our judiciary - here's hoping for eight (plus) years of federal judges appointed by Democrats.

It allows us to have a chance at doing something about global warming. Yes, even the democratic party is beholden in some ways to corporations that may resist getting tough on climate change. But to even insinuate that there is no difference between the parties when it comes to perspectives on climate change is just absurd.

It allows us to have a chance to reprioritize spending in this country. Say whatever you want about Democrats, the historical facts are Democrats have been less enthusiastic about plunging us headlong into unnecessary wars. You'll notice I am an Obama supporter, but even I note that under President Clinton we enjoyed eight years of relative peace. I believe we could expect a similar attitude and aim from either Democratic candidate. Without pouring hundreds of billions of dollars a year into misguided wars, we can begin to look at needs at home: education, civic infrastructure (anyone remember the bridge collapse from last year?) social services and the like.

These are just a few of the reasons to vote.

So now can we just disagree without you arrogantly thinking that somehow your a "deeper political thinker" or "more informed" because you see it differently?

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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #21
68. Obama took MILLIONS in corporate money. Edwards did NOT. Therein lies the difference.
I can't get past that, because those corporations OWN Obama now.

You know it and I know it.

I really wish people would wake up and see that we, the majority of people, middle class, working class and poor will NOT be helped because the corporations won't allow it.


Simple as that.
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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. Hard for them to wake up
When they don't even see the obvious.

Without lampoon or parody, this is an actual post:

"If we just BELIEVE in HOPE and CHANGE, there is no way we can LOSE."

Be afraid, be very afraid........

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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #71
80. Wow. What has happened to critical thinking?!
:yoiks:
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #80
95. fear and desperation
People are afraid. The idea is that if we all unite against the Republicans, and hope as hard as we can, that we will escape the ever-tightening noose. I am sympathetic to their feelings and can't beat up on them too much. I think that is what happened to John Edwards. It has happened to many good people here.

But here is what is happening in my view - the party leadership is cynically playing on people's fears and using that to manipulate them. The leadership is not worried about the Republicans, they are worried about the growing insurgency within the party. That is what is being attacked and suppressed, not the Republicans. They say "OMG look out we could lose the White House if we don't stop this squabbling! We must have unity and think only hopeful and positive thoughts! Think about SCOTUS!"

That is a long way from FDR saying "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself."

That fear mongering prevents us from experiencing and expressing what should be the natural and logical reaction to this: anger at the party leadership - including Edwards in my view - for betraying us and manipulating us this way.

We don't dare criticize the party leaders, because we are afraid that to do so would "help the Republicans." That gives them carte blanche to sell us down the river. Am I the only one furious about this? Aren't they supposed to represent us? Why are they demanding that we represent them? To be strictly loyal in thought, word and deed? To suspend critical judgment? To turn on each other?

Since we are precluded from being angry at the leadership - we are being bullied out of that - we are turning against each other now and using each other as targets for our anger.
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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #95
99. Excellent post and writing Two Americas
You can't miss this reasoning, even if you shut your mind to it.

More important, is the race to capture the attention of those at DU, still with an open mind. They can't be oblivious to the fact that I predicted the behavior of the Obamites, and the Obamites proved everything we have said collectively.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #95
110. I am not afriad. I just disagree with you.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #110
113. I believe you
I am talking about people being herded in certain directions through fear. Those doing the herding are probably not afraid. Those who have been herded are probably no longer afraid.
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desertflamingo Donating Member (152 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #95
123. you are not the only angry one, two americas!
i'm right with you. i'm pissed and i will NOT vote party over country because the party bosses tell me i must or terrible things will happen. guess what? i voted party (registered libertarian voting dem straight across the board) and look what it got us. NOTHING. the most pathetic bunch of congressional representatives EVER. you're right. we're angry with no one to yell at but each other. how fucked up is that?
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #80
108. Nothing has "happened" to critical thinking. We just disagree.
So here again is what I said when I decided to support Obama over Clinton after Edwards dropped out of the race:

I throw my support behind Barak Obama.

It will be a different kind of campaign, with different kinds of issues. Obama's focus is different, its not the same kind of populism that Edwards managed to briefly inject into politics. It's not as "liberal" in some respects, its not as strongly married to labor and other things.

But it IS a lot of things as well. Obama is a democrat, that much is clear. And as a true democrat, even if he is more moderate on some issues, he represents a clear alternative to Republican rule. He is an outsider, young and idealistic when it comes to change in Washington - he is these things right at a time when I feel the country needs it the most. He speaks of message of unity. That has led some to criticize him, fearing that he means caving into corrupt republican politicians like so many democratic washington insiders have done. I'm not sure how you can get that from his message. When he speaks of unity, he speaks in truly inspiring ways about how the time has come to unite the people.

Because when you strip away all the political spin, and the partisan entrenchment, the people of the United States actually SHARE many core beliefs and expectations for their government. A majority of ordinary people on both sides of the isle believe that we have a health care crisis. A majority of ordinary people on both sides of the isle believe that this war was either ill-advised or ill-executed or both, and that it is hurting us economically, hurting us diplomatically and that its time we brought it to a close. A majority of ordinary people on both sides of the isle believe that massive out of control spending and deficits combined with legal exemptions allowing multi-billion dollar corporations to pay less in taxes than a middle-class family is a failure of our system - regardless of what they think about higher or lower taxes in general or about the spending priorities of washington. A majority of ordinary people across both sides of the isle feel that the protection of constitutional rights for American Citizens matter, and that accountability in government is tragically missing.

The disconnect is between the polarizing propaganda of beltway politicians and the establishment media consistently bombarding the airwaves speaking for the American people and telling them what they believe. While reseach consistently indicates that when partisan rhetoric is stripped away, the American people are overwhelmingly in favor of a richer, progressive more community oriented America. It is time for a leader who will unite ordinary people across political divides around these common goals. That message of unity is not some secret scheme. It is the vision for a better tomorrow.

John Edwards shared that vision in common with Barak Obama. And while John Edward's emphasis was (I feel courageously) on taking on the power of corporate rule, I believe Obama's message, even if carrying a different issue focus, carries on that same spirit of unity and optimism that inspired me to become involved in the Edward's campaign. I don't now support Barak Obama crestfallen as if he were some unpalettable last option. Rather, I support him with great optimism, with a willingness to take a risk on a brilliant man who in many ways has not yet been entrenched and molded into any one category of politician. That freshness, that brilliance, and that optimism is something I'm willing to hope in. And vote for.

And, additionally, here is what I said that any democratic congress and democratic president gets us:

It ends legislative or executive debate about the right to choose.

It ends an aggressive anti-GLBT agenda that includes things like proposed constitutional amendments. We all know democrats are not doing enough to stand for full equality, but this reality is still the same.

In fact, across the spectrum on social issues a democratically controlled federal government - even a centrist one - effectively puts a "moratorium" on that dimension of the radical conservative agenda.

It allows for the removal of more than just the current president. Yes, I am aware that the current president is gone no matter which way the election goes. However, if a republican is elected, then the standard neo-conservatives that have been in the top places of administrations for the last thirty years continue to have place in Washington. A democratic president - of any stripe - means the end to the appointment of neoconservative nutcases like we have endured. Yes, even those horrible dreaded "centrists" would not appoint the likes of Alberto Gonzales, or Rumsfeld or Ashcroft, or Rice.

It allows us to begin to restore our judiciary - here's hoping for eight (plus) years of federal judges appointed by Democrats.

It allows us to have a chance at doing something about global warming. Yes, even the democratic party is beholden in some ways to corporations that may resist getting tough on climate change. But to even insinuate that there is no difference between the parties when it comes to perspectives on climate change is just absurd.

It allows us to have a chance to reprioritize spending in this country. Say whatever you want about Democrats, the historical facts are Democrats have been less enthusiastic about plunging us headlong into unnecessary wars. You'll notice I am an Obama supporter, but even I note that under President Clinton we enjoyed eight years of relative peace. I believe we could expect a similar attitude and aim from either Democratic candidate. Without pouring hundreds of billions of dollars a year into misguided wars, we can begin to look at needs at home: education, civic infrastructure (anyone remember the bridge collapse from last year?) social services and the like.

These are just a few of the reasons to vote.

So now can we just disagree without you arrogantly thinking that somehow your a "deeper political thinker" or "more informed" because you see it differently?
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desertflamingo Donating Member (152 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #108
125. It ends an aggressive anti-GLBT agenda that includes things like proposed constitutional amendments.
not with obama as president. sorry. especially not with obama as president.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #125
132. Bullshit.
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desertflamingo Donating Member (152 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #132
137. really?
"Obama came under a firestorm of criticism for inviting the Rev. Donnie McClurkin to headline an Oct. 28 campaign event for him in South Carolina because McClurkin espouses the belief that faith and prayer can help gays become straight. McClurkin claims he knows that’s possible because he’s done it.

In fact, at the event in South Carolina, rather than play down the controversy, McClurkin told the audience, “God delivered me from homosexuality.”

That’s a belief that most gay advocates—indeed most mental health professionals—call harmful and just plain wrong.

For Obama, having McClurkin represent him to socially conservative black voters was meant to be a way to try to chip away at Hillary Clinton’s widening lead in the race for the Democratic nomination. But while McClurkin may have helped the Illinois senator with some South Carolina voters, it could prove to be a huge mistake with gay and lesbian voters around the country."

www.chicagofreepress.com/node/689

no thank you. unless and until he invites david dukes onstage with him with the plea that we must be more inclusive of ALL people and all beliefs obama can kiss my big old white lesbian ass. just sayin'...

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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #137
142. Straw man.
I said:

It ends an aggressive anti-GLBT agenda that includes things like proposed constitutional amendments. We all know democrats are not doing enough to stand for full equality, but this reality is still the same.


And you responded, not of Obama gets elected which is bullshit. If you choose not to vote for Obama because he invited McClurkin to headline a campaign even for him, I respect that. I do. If you're going to be a single issue voter, then there is probably few better than the issue of LGBTQ equality.

But that wasn't my point, or the issue.

It is also fallacious reasoning and deceptive tactics to employ guilt-by-association and imply that Obama must share every position of someone else because they worked together at some point.

My statement was very simple - any democratic president and congress will stop discussion about things like a federal marriage amendment. That's true of Clinton, Obama or Mike fucking Gravel. Coming back and saying "not if Obama is elected" is disingenuous to the point of being asinine.

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desertflamingo Donating Member (152 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 04:06 AM
Response to Reply #142
150. what i meant and i thought was clear...
IF obama were to invite david duke to endorse him indicating that he's (obama) REALLY about a big tent, i wouldn't have such disgust for him (don't get me wrong - i'd be disgusted, for sure, but not to the degree i am now); however, i feel he's pandering to gays and lesbians AND does not hold the same reverence for the inequality and discrimination towards gays and lesbians as he does toward blacks. he is a hypocrite and a panderer. he showed his true, deep down, colors in regard to lesbian/gay rights and equality. what he should do, if he was REALLY the man every one is claiming him to be, is say NO. i do NOT want the endorsement of ANY bigots, racists or homophobes. period, end of story. but he won't, will he.

and no. i am not a single issue voter. but there are certain things that stick in my craw and one of them is blatant hypocrisy.

"Coming back and saying "not if Obama is elected" is disingenuous to the point of being asinine."

disingenuous? asinine? says who? says you? whatever, straw man. live in your little fantasy obamarama world and call nonbelievers names when they disagree with you. i hope you enjoy 8 years of pres. grandpa mccain. just sayin'.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #150
186.  You continue your staw man argument. I think you are confused.
I don't think you understand. You may have a very valid point in your reasons for not supporting Obama. Everything you've written here could make perfect sense.

But I'm not arguing with you about that. I am arguing with you about one single, basic thing.

I said that any democratic president and congress ends the aggressive anti-glbt campaign for things like a federal marriage amendment.

You can back and said, not if it's Obama. In other words, if its Obama then the aggressive anti-glbt campaign for a federal marriage amendment would continue.

I'm not talking about whether Obama would be the best champion for LGBTQ equality. Not talking about whether he panders. Not talking about his "deep down true colors." You may or may not be right about any of those things, which was never my point.

My point is that saying that he or any other democratic candidate would pursue a federal marriage amendment when in office is ridiculous. And you know it. That is the only, very small point I was making.

Every time you respond, you ignore that, and turn it into a grand discussion of whether or not Obama is really a friend to the gay community. Maybe he isn't, but that wasn't the point of this exchange, was it? That's the definition of a straw man.


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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #186
188. Read your sig line
I have never seen so many glittering generalities in one small space. All saying.....NOTHING!

As to your ongoing debate here, you have conceded the battle in your quest for a victory.

Nice job!
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #188
189. also irrelevant
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #71
81. Where's the bar, now?
So, we've defended Obama in our own words.

Now, since you've been defeated at your game (and it is a game), you want us to defend each and every Obama supporter, with our own words? When you won't even respond to those posters who rose to your "challenge"?

Stick with your meme if you want. But I think I'm done playing with you until you show yourself to actually be serious about argumentation and debate.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #21
106. who is married to a candidate?
I am committed to the group of supporters that coalesced around the candidacy of Edwards, committed to his message (whether he meant it or not,) and committed to overthrowing the corporate control of the party.

I am as angry at John Edwards as I am at anyone for caving into the pressure. We all know exactly what that pressure is. It is relentless and omnipresent. We are all being pressured here to do exactly what Edwards was pressured to do.

People screaming (using caps anyway) "do you want the Republicans to win??? Think about SCOTUS!! We need to pull together! We need to be positive!" and we are supposed to think that there isn't any pressure, or that this pressure is not coming right from the top, or that Edwards would be immune to it? Take every "unity" and "you are helping the Republicans!" post here, and what Edwards got was bigger than all of them combined. To reject that view is to live in a complete fantasy world about how power politics works, and what the stakes are and who the players are.

All of the campaign rhetoric is sales and marketing bullshit, to persuade us and to make us feel good. The rallies are carefully staged media events. Why else would the candidates all hire highly-paid specialists in manipulating public opinion? Where do we imagine our donations go?

Behind the soothing words and the empty rhetoric, billions of dollars and massive power are at stake. The people jockeying for those are playing for keeps, and are playing hard and dirty and ugly. Count on that.

We should not live in the fantasy world created by the PR and the advertisements.

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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #106
109. I am not an ideological purity elitist.
Supporting Obama does not mean I believe Obama and Edwards were equal candidates. It means I've made a decision for practical idealism rather than blind rhetorical purism. You can talk until you're blue in the face, but clinging to support of John Edwards does nothing to help a democrat and not a republican become President in 2008.

So here again is what I said when I decided to support Obama over Clinton after Edwards dropped out of the race:

I throw my support behind Barak Obama.

It will be a different kind of campaign, with different kinds of issues. Obama's focus is different, its not the same kind of populism that Edwards managed to briefly inject into politics. It's not as "liberal" in some respects, its not as strongly married to labor and other things.

But it IS a lot of things as well. Obama is a democrat, that much is clear. And as a true democrat, even if he is more moderate on some issues, he represents a clear alternative to Republican rule. He is an outsider, young and idealistic when it comes to change in Washington - he is these things right at a time when I feel the country needs it the most. He speaks of message of unity. That has led some to criticize him, fearing that he means caving into corrupt republican politicians like so many democratic washington insiders have done. I'm not sure how you can get that from his message. When he speaks of unity, he speaks in truly inspiring ways about how the time has come to unite the people.

Because when you strip away all the political spin, and the partisan entrenchment, the people of the United States actually SHARE many core beliefs and expectations for their government. A majority of ordinary people on both sides of the isle believe that we have a health care crisis. A majority of ordinary people on both sides of the isle believe that this war was either ill-advised or ill-executed or both, and that it is hurting us economically, hurting us diplomatically and that its time we brought it to a close. A majority of ordinary people on both sides of the isle believe that massive out of control spending and deficits combined with legal exemptions allowing multi-billion dollar corporations to pay less in taxes than a middle-class family is a failure of our system - regardless of what they think about higher or lower taxes in general or about the spending priorities of washington. A majority of ordinary people across both sides of the isle feel that the protection of constitutional rights for American Citizens matter, and that accountability in government is tragically missing.

The disconnect is between the polarizing propaganda of beltway politicians and the establishment media consistently bombarding the airwaves speaking for the American people and telling them what they believe. While reseach consistently indicates that when partisan rhetoric is stripped away, the American people are overwhelmingly in favor of a richer, progressive more community oriented America. It is time for a leader who will unite ordinary people across political divides around these common goals. That message of unity is not some secret scheme. It is the vision for a better tomorrow.

John Edwards shared that vision in common with Barak Obama. And while John Edward's emphasis was (I feel courageously) on taking on the power of corporate rule, I believe Obama's message, even if carrying a different issue focus, carries on that same spirit of unity and optimism that inspired me to become involved in the Edward's campaign. I don't now support Barak Obama crestfallen as if he were some unpalettable last option. Rather, I support him with great optimism, with a willingness to take a risk on a brilliant man who in many ways has not yet been entrenched and molded into any one category of politician. That freshness, that brilliance, and that optimism is something I'm willing to hope in. And vote for.

And, additionally, here is what I said that any democratic congress and democratic president gets us:

It ends legislative or executive debate about the right to choose.

It ends an aggressive anti-GLBT agenda that includes things like proposed constitutional amendments. We all know democrats are not doing enough to stand for full equality, but this reality is still the same.

In fact, across the spectrum on social issues a democratically controlled federal government - even a centrist one - effectively puts a "moratorium" on that dimension of the radical conservative agenda.

It allows for the removal of more than just the current president. Yes, I am aware that the current president is gone no matter which way the election goes. However, if a republican is elected, then the standard neo-conservatives that have been in the top places of administrations for the last thirty years continue to have place in Washington. A democratic president - of any stripe - means the end to the appointment of neoconservative nutcases like we have endured. Yes, even those horrible dreaded "centrists" would not appoint the likes of Alberto Gonzales, or Rumsfeld or Ashcroft, or Rice.

It allows us to begin to restore our judiciary - here's hoping for eight (plus) years of federal judges appointed by Democrats.

It allows us to have a chance at doing something about global warming. Yes, even the democratic party is beholden in some ways to corporations that may resist getting tough on climate change. But to even insinuate that there is no difference between the parties when it comes to perspectives on climate change is just absurd.

It allows us to have a chance to reprioritize spending in this country. Say whatever you want about Democrats, the historical facts are Democrats have been less enthusiastic about plunging us headlong into unnecessary wars. You'll notice I am an Obama supporter, but even I note that under President Clinton we enjoyed eight years of relative peace. I believe we could expect a similar attitude and aim from either Democratic candidate. Without pouring hundreds of billions of dollars a year into misguided wars, we can begin to look at needs at home: education, civic infrastructure (anyone remember the bridge collapse from last year?) social services and the like.

These are just a few of the reasons to vote.

So now can we just disagree without you arrogantly thinking that somehow your a "deeper political thinker" or "more informed" because you see it differently?
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #109
122. shadow boxing
I am not "clinging to support of John Edwards" nor am I planning to not vote. Giving me reasons to vote, and running through a list of the problems we face does not rationally support your particular choice in candidates.

I don't know how you can judge what does and does not fall under the category of doing "nothing to help a democrat and not a republican become President in 2008."

In have no idea what you imagine when you juxtapose "practical idealism" with "blind rhetorical purism."

Of course any Democrat is better than a Republican. A fire fighter is better than an arsonist, as well. We judge them by a different set of standards. Saying that a candidate "is better than an arsonist!" is comforting to know, but tells us nothing about his skill at fire fighting.

I reject your strong implication that the opinions being expressed on this thread are somehow disloyal or "helping the Republicans."
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #122
133. Response
I am not "clinging to support of John Edwards"

What do you call it then? What part of that statement to you feel does not represent you? Is it the word "clining" that is the problem? How about just a simple, "continuing to vote for John Edwards after John Edwards has announced he is no longer a candidate?" How is that inaccurate?


Giving me reasons to vote, and running through a list of the problems we face does not rationally support your particular choice in candidates.


Well that's good, since I didn't do that. Nothing in my post gave a list of problems we face. What it did do was list the things what we know about any democratic president and democratic congress. It also give the reasons why I chose to move my support to Obama after Edwards announced that he was no longer a candidate for President. I am forced to conclude that you did not bother to read my post at all, other than to find phrases for semantic debate. Is that inaccurate?


I don't know how you can judge what does and does not fall under the category of doing "nothing to help a democrat and not a republican become President in 2008."


Then allow me to explain my criteria for judgment. First we start with a premise: that any democrat in the white house next year will be better than any republican in the white house. Then we continue with some facts.

(1)Fact one is that John Edwards is no longer running for President. (2)Fact two is that I have a personal preference between the remaining two candidates. That I have a personal preference is the fact, not the nature of the preference. (3)Fact three is that one of these two remaining candidates are almost an absolute certainty to be the nominee. (4)Fact four is that no two people have exactly identical electability chances against the same republican nominee. If it is McCain, one of those two will be a better match-up than the other. Now on to the opinions.

My opinion is that it is as important at this stage of the primaries to consider electability relative to the likely republican nominee as it is consider other things. I believe that Obama has a greater electability change against John McCain than Hillary Clinton does. That is just opinion. It is also my opinion that continuing to support a candidate that is no longer a nominee for President would only make sense if Fact 4 was false. But it is not false. Therefore, I am interested in casting my vote on Tuesday for the candidate that I believe has the best chance against the likely Republican nominee. If I knew who John Edwards was endorsing, perhaps the number of delegates he has would matter. But I don't. If he endorses Hillary Clinton, then my vote is wasted, because I would disagree with him that she is the best or most electable candidate to run against the likely republican nominee.

That's my opinion - the conclusion I draw from certain facts.


In have no idea what you imagine when you juxtapose "practical idealism" with "blind rhetorical purism."


"Practical Idealism"
Practical - pragmatic, grounded, solution-focused with an awareness of the limitations and constraints of context-based reality.
Idealism - vision, belief in the best of all possibilities, beliefs and values oriented toward change in accordance with a master vision of the ideal way things "ought" to be.

Thus, practical idealism is a blending of vision with groundedness. It is the holding of beliefs oriented toward change in accordance with a vision of the way things ought to be, blending with a practical awareness of the limitations and constraints of context-based reality.

"Blind rhetorical purism"
Blind - in this case, referring metaphorically to one's unwillingness or inability to recognize the truths of reality based context, oblivious to practicality, unable to be pragmatic
Rhetorical - not translating into practical action, but simply the utterance of lofty words without any connection to any plausible way to implement the ideas contained within those words
Purism - as in being an ideological purist. In the case, it refers to being dogmatically committed to an ideal without any consideration of the contextual challenges, constraints, obstacles to face or potential appropriate compromises to be made on the road to moving close to said ideal. Instead its all or nothing, black and white, "pure" or unpure.

Thus, blind rhetorical purism is an unwillingness or inablity to see being ideologically pure rhetoric to practical, plausible, realistic action - even in incremental - on behalf of those ideals.

Hope that helps. :hi:

Of course any Democrat is better than a Republican. A fire fighter is better than an arsonist, as well. We judge them by a different set of standards. Saying that a candidate "is better than an arsonist!" is comforting to know, but tells us nothing about his skill at fire fighting.

Our choice is ultimately going to be between a fire fighter (democratic nominee) and an arsonist (republican nominee.) Now, it isn't enough to simply ask "which of the fire fighters would make the best fire fighter?" It is also important to ask, "which fire fighters are running for the job, and which fire fighter is most likely to be able to defeat the arsonist?"

Any Democrat is better than a Republican, but not all Democrats are equality capable of beating a republican, depending on who the republican nominee will be.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #133
141. response
I will use your formatting to make it easier to read.

What do you call it then? What part of that statement to you feel does not represent you? Is it the word "clining" that is the problem? How about just a simple, "continuing to vote for John Edwards after John Edwards has announced he is no longer a candidate?" How is that inaccurate?

I don't know what you are talking about. My state caucus has already passed. I explained where my political loyalties are. First to the left behind, poor, working poor, suffering and homeless people. Secondly to the traditional principles and ideals of the Democratic party. Thirdly to those who are fighting for those. Everything else is tactics and strategy.

Well that's good, since I didn't do that. Nothing in my post gave a list of problems we face. What it did do was list the things what we know about any democratic president and democratic congress. It also give the reasons why I chose to move my support to Obama after Edwards announced that he was no longer a candidate for President. I am forced to conclude that you did not bother to read my post at all, other than to find phrases for semantic debate. Is that inaccurate?

OK. You described the things that Democrats would do to solve problems. While those are compelling reasons to vote Democrat - and I have done so for 40 years and did not say that I was stopping - they have nothing to do with Obama in particular.

That's my opinion - the conclusion I draw from certain facts.

That is great. Vote for Obama. I will too in the general. Where is the disagreement?

Hope that helps.

I know what the words mean. I don't see how your comparison applies to this discussion.

Our choice is ultimately going to be between a fire fighter (democratic nominee) and an arsonist (republican nominee.) Now, it isn't enough to simply ask "which of the fire fighters would make the best fire fighter?" It is also important to ask, "which fire fighters are running for the job, and which fire fighter is most likely to be able to defeat the arsonist?"

Of course. Again, what is your point and where is the disagreement?
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
24. great post ClericJohnPreston
I agree that many people are living in a fantasy world, hoping for "victory cheaply bought."

I saw two glaring examples of this recently on DU, and since then I have wondered if an unwillingness to make any personal sacrifice, to pay a price, to take any personal risk, may not be more widespread than I had imagined.

In one debate about the erosion of civil liberties, a poster asked some libertarian-ish "freedom" posters if they were willing to go to jail for their beliefs. I was surprised to see several answer "no, of course not. Why would I put myself at risk? All of this isn't my fault." For any of us who lived through the civil rights struggles, union battles and the anti-war movement from the 60's and faced clubs, dogs, fire hoses, and jail this comes as a shock.

In another discussion, someone asked if people were willing to die for their country. Dozens of posters quickly answered with a strong and unqualified "no" - they would not under any circumstances put their life at risk for their country. I said that yes, of course I would risk my life to protect the country from enemies foreign and domestic, but there were only one or two people who agreed with me.

Only those who are fairly well off, comfortable and satisfied with their lives, with a sense of privilege and entitlement that they take for granted, could take these positions. How can one be "for change" and "opposed" to anything and yet not be willing to pay a price or place oneself at any personal risk?

Do we want our politics to be directed and informed and controlled by those few who are not at risk, who have nothing at stake, and who refuse to make any personal sacrifice for others? Worse - those who mock and ridicule the very concept of self-sacrifice?

We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!
Our dried voices, when
We whisper together
Are quiet and meaningless
As wind in dry grass
Or rats’ feet over broken glass
In our dry cellar

Shape without form, shade without colour,
Paralysed force, gesture without motion;

Those who have crossed
With direct eyes, to death’s other Kingdom
Remember us—if at all—not as lost
Violent souls, but only
As the hollow men
The stuffed men.

"The Hollow Men"
T. S. Eliot
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
28. Do you know who the guy is?
Do you care?

Obama Seeks U.S. Senate seat
by TRACY BAIM
2004-02-04


I came to Chicago after college, to work as a community organizer on the Far South Side of Chicago, an area that had been devastated by steel plant closings. There were a group of organizations in the area that wanted to see how they could rebuild their communities. So I was hired as a 23-year-old director to work on setting up job training programs, and after-school programs, and other programs for the area. After three and a half years of doing that, which was a wonderful experience and a great education for me, I realized that it was really hard to initiate some of the changes that were needed at a local level, because the economic forces that were hurting these communities were so big. I decided it was a good time for me to step back. So I went to law school. I went to Harvard, graduated in 1991. I was fortunate to be the first Black president of the Harvard Law Review there, and that gave me a variety of options. But I knew I wanted to come back to Chicago and work in public policy. So I ran a voter registration drive, called Project Vote, that registered 150,000 new voters to help get Bill Clinton and Carol Moseley Braun elected. I started working at a civil-rights firm ... that specialized in employment discrimination law and voting-rights law, and I started teaching at the University of Chicago, where I still teach constitutional law and voting rights law. In 1996, this seat here came up, and I ran, and was successful, and I’ve served in the legislature ever since.

WCT: You went right to the state Senate.

Obama: I phased out my legal practice, though I occasionally do some appellate work. But mostly now, in addition to the state Senate, I teach. I’m married, and I have two kids.
WCT: What are the boundaries of your district?

Obama: It’s entirely in the city. It stretches from 99th Street south all the way up through the Gold Coast, along the lakefront. Which means that I’ve got some of the wealthiest zip codes in the state, as well as some of the poorest. The district changed since the most recent re-map. It used to run east-west, Hyde Park, South Shore, and then it would run west, through some very poor areas like Englewood. Most of my representation, historically, has been on the South Side.

WCT: I remember seeing you at gay and lesbian events, if not before you were elected, certainly after you were elected.

Obama: Before and after.

WCT: And yet, your district at the time, stereotypically, people would not consider having a large gay presence.

Obama: That probably dates back to my college days. My favorite professor my first year in college was one of the first openly gay people that I knew. This was back in 1979. He was a terrific guy, though we’ve lost touch. He was a political science professor. ... Because of my friendship with him, I became, early on, attuned to some of the issues and struggles that were facing the gay and lesbian communities. I think, because of those personal relationships with people like him, friends of mine I’ve known and worked with in various capacities, I’ve always been concerned and interested in how we promote social justice for all people.

WCT: Have you ever experienced any backlash, in terms of your re-election, when you supported gay issues?

Obama: I have not. I’m really pleased with the cultural shift that’s taken place just in the last decade in our society. I think that Chicago, and Illinois, in a lot of ways have been leaders in the country, particularly in the Democratic Party, where I think there has been a lot of progress made. We don’t have a lot of gay-bashing taking place within the Democratic Party, from any camp.

WCT: One of the things that supporters of the state gay-rights bill have been saying is that some of the supporters of certain Senate candidates, yourself included, were not coming out full force for the Senate bill this time. Do you feel there’s a litmus test for people whose supporters aren’t fully 100%?

Obama: You raise an important point. Although your initial question was whether there’s been a backlash against me, I see none of that within the Democratic Party. I think there are still geographical differences in terms of attitude toward gay and lesbian issues. I think downstate, there is a difference. On the Southwest Side, the Northwest Side of Chicago, where the Catholic Church is still a significant institution, there is a difference. And, to a certain extent, within the African-American community, because of the strong affiliation with the church, there is still some resistance.

My attitude is that candidates for office, persons in elected office, are ultimately responsible for what they say and what they do. I think the question is, are they forceful, clear, strong advocates on behalf of these issues. Are they doing everything that they can to lobby on behalf of these issues. They’re not always going to be successful, even within the Democratic Party. And there are going to be people in this U.S. Senate race who support me who may not feel the same way I do on gay and lesbian issues. That’s going to be true of the other candidates as well. The important thing is, what do people see me saying publicly, how am I acting publicly, how am I voting publicly. Because what I do think is unacceptable is saying one thing in one forum, and saying something else in another. What you do have to expect is consistency, and not playing to a particular audience.

WCT: Can you talk about the supporters of you who do not support the gay-rights bill . Is it your sense that the choice they are making is a moral choice for them, or is it a political choice?

Obama: The overwhelming majority of my supporters not only support SB 101 but are co-sponsors. There are going to be some of my supporters who may not have voted for it yet ... . I think it probably varies. I think there are some downstate Democrats who are just making a political calculation, that this is really a tough one. That they will experience significant political backlash in districts that are closely aligned, and in which the Republican Party is very much using this as a wedge issue. I think there may be other supporters of mine who are still asking questions about the contents of the bill. I’m confident that if we can get this to the floor, and get close, that I can change some minds.

WCT: You have done a lot on HIV and AIDS funding.

Obama: That’s been a top priority for me, partly because I’m in charge of the Health and Human Services Committee in the Senate. I try to work very actively with the AIDS Foundation and other advocacy groups to improve our response here in Illinois. This year, a lot of our focus was on testing pregnant women ... . It involves not just testing, but more importantly, counseling of pregnant women. So that was a significant victory. I’ve been a strong advocate, consistently, for increasing AIDS funding throughout my tenure in the state Senate. We still do not provide enough resources for the kinds of community-based prevention programs that are necessary, and I think as a consequence we’ve seen AIDS rates creep back up, particularly among young people. One of the things I’m constantly interested in is making sure that we’re fighting complacency on this issue, because we’re a long way from being out of the woods on the AIDS crisis.

WCT: Is there more the state can do in making up for a lack of federal funding?

Obama: Part of the reason I’m running for the United States Senate is because we need more money from the federal government. The state is in a genuine budget crisis, despite the reports of an improving economy. The reports that we just received this month indicate that the state is still going to be anywhere between $1.5-3 billion in the hole. So it’s going to be hard, simply relying on state dollars, to see significant increases in social service and health funding across the board. ... Unlike what’s happening at the state level, the federal government can afford such funding if it re-prioritizes its policies.

WCT: What are your top five mainstream agenda items?

Obama: What’s striking to me, as I travel across this state, is the degree to which the healthcare crisis is affecting all people, across region, across race, across sexual orientation, and in some cases, across income levels. When I first came in seven years ago, we already had a crisis of the uninsured. We had a crisis with respect to prescription drugs. We already had a significant crisis in terms of AIDS funding and other prevention issues. What we’re seeing now, though, is because of the continuing double-digit inflation in the healthcare industry, we’re seeing people who have jobs unable to afford health insurance, because their co-payments, their premiums and deductibles are going up so much faster than their incomes. So one of my top priorities is moving in the direction of universal healthcare. At the state level, I’ve been a sponsor of the amendment which would make healthcare a constitutional right, and would mandate the legislature to arrive at a form of universal healthcare in the state. We haven’t been able to push that forward, but we continue to work on it. I’m working with Campaign For Better Health Care to move a bill called the Healthcare Justice Act at the state level, which again, would force the legislature to address this issue.

At the federal level, what we’ve already proposed is that we immediately expand a program that I helped shape here in the state, the Kid Care program. At the federal level, it’s called the children’s health insurance program. This would cover all persons 24 and under, which would only cost us $37 billion, but would immediately cover approximately half of the uninsured. At the other end of the spectrum, we’ve proposed that we allow 55- to 64-year-olds to buy into the Medicare system. Those two programs together, for far less than we spent on Iraq, on the war and reconstruction, would cover the majority of persons who are currently uninsured. In the long-term, I think we need to move in the direction of a national healthcare program.

WCT: What are the other issues you consider important?

Obama: Jobs and the economy are always important. Illinois’ economic base continues to erode, particularly with regard to manufacturing. Although no single U.S. Senator is able to have singlehanded influence over the state of the U.S. economy, we can make better choices than we’re making right now to encourage job growth in our communities. Dealing with the healthcare crisis will go a long way toward improving our economy, because I think small businesses are getting hit very hard by rising healthcare costs, and your readership not only has a lot of small business owners in it, but it also has a lot of people who may be self-employed, and they’re typically more likely to be uninsured.

But I think jobs are a critical issue. Part of what I think we can have an impact on, legislatively, is how the the tax code is written up. Right now we have given incentives to companies that are opening up offshore accounts in Bermuda to avoid U.S. taxes, instead of providing incentives for companies that are investing in research and development and worker training here in the U.S.

Education continues to be a top priority. The area that I’m most interested in is expanding access to early childhood education. I think the schools, right now, are oftentimes dealing with children who are going into the school system already behind. ... Access to higher education is a big issue. In the mid-’80s, the Pell Grant program, the primary grant program under the federal government, covered 98% of the costs of a four-year public university. It now covers 57%, so you’re seeing a lot of young people who are making the decision not to go to college because they can’t afford it, and aren’t interested in loading up a $50,000-$100,000 debt.

So those are top priorities. But my other top priority is making sure that we reframe the debate on civil rights and civil liberties in this country. I have been a consistent critic of the Patriot Act. As a constitutional lawyer, I am deeply concerned with the kinds of judges that have been promoted by the Bush administration. I think that it’s important for progressives and the Democratic Party to go on the offensive with respect to the agenda that’s being promoted by the Radical Right, when it comes to intrusions into our civil liberties.

WCT: Have you taken a position on whether you would have voted for the war resolution?

Obama: Yes. I’m proud of the fact that a year ago, I was one of the key speakers at the first anti-war rally in Chicago, at the Federal Plaza. I was one of two elected officials at the rally, myself and Julie Hamos from Evanston. I said at that time, six months before the war was actually launched, that it was ill-conceived, that there was no evidence of an imminent threat from Saddam Hussein, that there was no connection between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein, that Hussein was a dangerous and brutal dictator, but that working unilaterally, we could contain him and ensure our security. And I anticipated that an invasion of Iraq was going to cost us billions of dollars, and thousands of lives. ... Nothing that has happened since that time has disabused me of that position.

WCT: You have a large list of gay and lesbian supporters.

Obama: I’ve been a strong supporter of gay and lesbian issues for a long time, which means I have a lot of personal relationships in the gay and lesbian community. Initially, our committee formed of its own volition and is continuing to expand.

WCT: Can you talk about your plan on domestic and international AIDS issues?

Obama: On issues like prevention and care, we need to significantly increase funding, and we put out proposals to increase funding by at least $1 billion.

WCT: If Bush does get re-elected, and the Republicans maintain control, how can Democrats have an impact?

Obama: It depends on what the margins are in the Senate and the House. If the Democrats continue to be the minority in both Houses and the Republicans control the White House, we have less leverage. Part of our job, at this stage, is to lay the groundwork for a long-term working majority. This country is at a crossroads. Whether it’s an issue of AIDS funding, or tax policy, or healthcare, or the environment, we have a 5- to 10-year task ahead of us in rebuilding a working, progressive Democratic majority that can win elections. So on issues like AIDS funding, I see my job as not only getting more money and passing bills, but also changing and reframing the debate. I want to be able to reach out into the African-American community, where there may still be resistance and homophobia, and talk as a U.S. Senator about the importance of funding.

WCT: Is there a comparison to when Republican Pate Philip was heading the state Senate and you were trying to get bills through?

Obama: Absolutely. The Republican Party has its own tensions. There are very conservative, intolerant wings, and then there are mainstream wings. My experience is that if you’re clear and principled, they are also willing to work with anybody and seek common ground. You can actually win some occasional victories. You’re not going to win everything, you’ll probably going to lose on most issues. But on issues of AIDS funding, I think it appeals to people’s core decency and values. I think that even voters and elected officials who may object to SB 101, can still be persuaded that we need to make sure that people are healthy and safe.

WCT: What about the military’s ‘don’t ask’ policy?

Obama: I think it needs to be eliminated. ... I think it is safe to assume that we have a significant number of gay and lesbian soldiers in Iraq. The notion that somehow they should be treated differently is contrary to what this country is about.

WCT: Do you have a position on marriage vs. civil unions?

Obama: I am a fierce supporter of domestic-partnership and civil-union laws. I am not a supporter of gay marriage as it has been thrown about, primarily just as a strategic issue. I think that marriage, in the minds of a lot of voters, has a religious connotation. I know that’s true in the African-American community, for example. And if you asked people, ‘should gay and lesbian people have the same rights to transfer property, and visit hospitals, and et cetera,’ they would say, ‘absolutely.’ And then if you talk about, ‘should they get married?’, then suddenly ...

WCT: There are more than 1,000 federal benefits that come with marriage. Looking back in the 1960s and inter-racial marriage, the polls showed people against that as well.

Obama: Since I’m a product of an interracial marriage, I’m very keenly aware of ...

WCT: But you think, strategically, gay marriage isn’t going to happen so you won’t support it at this time?

Obama: What I’m saying is that strategically, I think we can get civil unions passed. I think we can get SB 101 passed. I think that to the extent that we can get the rights, I’m less concerned about the name. And I think that is my No. 1 priority, is an environment in which the Republicans are going to use a particular language that has all sorts of connotations in the broader culture as a wedge issue, to prevent us moving forward, in securing those rights, then I don’t want to play their game.

WCT: If Massachusetts gets marriage and this gives momentum to the proposed federal Constitutional amendment against gay marriage?

Obama: I would oppose that.

WCT: Talk about your record on hate crimes.

Obama: I have been a strong advocate for hate-crimes legislation at the state level. I would continue to be an equally strong advocate at the federal level. I absolutely think that sexual orientation has to be included in all hate-crimes legislation.



Want some more??
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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. Thanks
for the LINK!!!!!!!!!!

Is that who Obama is TODAY? Does that tell you anything about his policy specifics?

What price are you personally willing to pay for all those hopes and dreams????
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #35
46. Why do you expect me...
or better yet, why would you expect me to provide you with the words of this man, on every issue you care about? And, why would you trust my interpretation of his words? Especially around here, when everything any candidate says is distorted, and taken out of context. Can you not seek and find the information you are asking others to provide you?
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Indenturedebtor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
31. Don't be so damn insulting
Go and so some research on Obama, like most of his supporters did. You can start with the post at the bottom of this article. Then go to his website, read his books, check out his voting record.

You could only post something like this without having done so.

You're smearing without examples. I take it you are an old school "this is how the game is played" HRC supporter? Nice. Take your cynicism, and let us have our hope. Without hope why even get off the couch?
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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #31
43. Because you have to THINK
Sorry if I choose not to read your LINK! You see, if you read what I wrote, I have RESEARCHED Obama thoroughly, studied his speeches and watched hiis campaign appearances.

Do you read? You couldn't even read this post, or else you wouldnt have said what you did above.

Pathetic......
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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
33.  I couldn't agree more
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Beaverhausen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
40. Great post! Beautifully written.
Gladly K&R.

I would like any Obama supporter tell us, in there own words, not links, how Obama is going to deal with the issue of homelessness.
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alteredstate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #40
76. So what about the
Veterans Homelessness Prevention Act?
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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #76
83. Wha, wha, WHAT?????
What are thew specifics ( read that as SPECIFICS ) of Obama's position...without a link?
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alteredstate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #83
88. It's a bill Senator Obama introduced
to offer services and aid to veterans.
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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #88
118. Introduced....
in other words, it went nowhere. Funny, it took John Edwards to push this agenda on the stump. I never heard Obama even mention trying to pass a Bill. The debates, where Veterans came up, would have offered a great opportunity for that, right?

So, where was Obama on that?

What are the specifics of that Bill?

Who co-sponsored it?

Details???
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alteredstate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #118
159. The Veterans Homelessness Prevention Act is S.2330
The bill was introduced in November and is co-sponsored by Sen. Robert Menendez of New Jersey. The bill would provide housing, mental health services, employment counseling and training, and financial guidance to veterans who are homeless or could become homeless. If you want more detail (and there's plenty of it), you're going to have to read about it on your own. No links, remember?

S.2330 is supported by: The National Network for Youth, The National Policy and Advocacy Council on Homelessness, Veterans for America, Catholic Charities, USA Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America, The National AIDS Housing Coalition, The National Alliance to End Homelessness, The National Association for the Education of Homeless Children and Youth, The National Coalition for Homeless Veterans, The National Coalition for the Homeless, The National Law Center on Homelessness & Poverty, The National Low Income Housing Coalition, Veterans for Common Sense, The Corporation for Supportive Housing, and Give US Your Poor: The Campaign to End Homelessness.

I hope to write lots of letters and make lots of phone calls to do what I can to push this bill.

I guess you haven't heard about Veterans for Obama. I do volunteer work with disadvantaged citizens, and I work with quite a few homeless veterans. My significant other, a veteran, is an active member of Veterans for Obama. Recently I attended a forum sponsored by the organization. Senator Obama has pledged "zero tolerance" on this issue, and I'm sure John Edwards agrees with him.
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iris5426 Donating Member (697 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
45. Great post! K&R!!
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NastyRiffraff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
52. I, too, have researched Obama
as well as Clinton. I'm still looking.

I agree with the OP that "Hope," while inspiring, is an empty shell without something to back it up. That something is hard work, challenging the country to (gasp!) sacrifice, presenting the realities of today's world and how to deal with them.

Yes, Obama has policies. Perhaps he even has sincere beliefs; I don't know. What worries me is not his lack of policies, and certainly not a lack of intelligence; it's that he pushes hope and only hope as a means to get elected. Inspiration is a wonderful thing, and can get people initially enthusiastic. But if that's the only thing presented, the enthusiasm fades quickly when those same people are told, as they eventually must be, that in order to accomplish anything, you need sacrifice, hard work, and the ability to face frustration and even defeat in some cases.

I really fear that if Obama does win, a lot of his supporters are going to be disillusioned very quickly when it becomes clear that "hope" isn't the only thing necessary.

BTW, K&R :kick:
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Prefer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
53. YES, WE CAN!
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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
55. Great Post As Was Your Earlier One... And THERE IS Something To
the "why" of the Edwards SUSPENSION! I just got an email today that SPOKE VOLUMES TO ME! And as another said, I'm NOT naming names, but if any others got the same email... THINK ABOUT IT!!

I was very "pissed" and wrote back with a full frontal SLAM!!
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desertflamingo Donating Member (152 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #55
127. i'm interested in knowing about your email. do tell...
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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #127
128. Just Checking Replies... Be Back In the AM & Will Elaborate... Having A
kidney flare-up and it's up and down, most people are familiar with the process, take meds and WAIT. Need to get some sleep tonight, up a lot last night, but with time all will be well soon! Been there, done that you know. Just knocks you down for a while.

Be back
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
57. You are consistently one of my favorite posters on DU.
No empty calories in your posts. Each sentence thoughtfully constructed. Well done.

"Links? We don't need no steenkin' links!"

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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #57
64. Thank you!
I enjoy writing for an informed audience that understands the message. ;)
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
62. K&R
We aren't going to get anything by just hoping for it. Change takes work, not platitudes. Sadly some believe that those of us who aren't the type to blindly get swept up in good feelings are relics of some sort.
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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #62
69. Amen to that!
Yet, this is no sarcasm, the actual sig line of an Obamite and a thread topic:

If we just BELIEVE in HOPE and CHANGE, there is no way we can LOSE.

I'm a student of logic, but even this is too easy.

....."there is no way we can lose"......

It isn't ignorance, it is WILLFUL IGNORANCE coupled with blind faith and NO, Obamites, that isn't a good thing!!!!!!!!
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
89. An enthusiastic K&R!
:applause:
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Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
93. Evening kickaroo!
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Helga Scow Stern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
101. Thank you for that astute assessment. I too want specifics,
and I agree with the need to identify with the winner. Reminds me of the need to be part of the cool group in high school. Many people (especially young) would sacrifice anything for that, and I think that is at least a good part of the maniacally-defended appeal of Obama.
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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #101
103. You just have to skim through their threads
to see what passes for reason in that world.

Can you imagine, if their egos are so caught up in this contest, and so well used by the Obama campaign, what happens when reality finally settles in?

That reality could be anything from losing to Hillary, to losing a GE. God forbid Obama wins and then faces governing with no plans. This group of groupies have never sacrificed a day in their lives.
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Helga Scow Stern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #103
169. I have wondered if that is part of the manipulation going on....
why the political power of this emerging group is being massaged in this way.
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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
105. Sure it is just our imagination
that Obamites just fall for rhetoric and buzzwords over rational thought.

THEN AGAIN, FROM A REAL POST TONIGHT:

"Are you FIRED UP? READY TO GO? I know you are, but come in and say Gobama"

:wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow:
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AndyA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
111. Dr. Obama's Traveling Salvation Show
Edited on Sat Feb-02-08 09:12 PM by AndyA
A bunch of crap in a wagon passing through town.

Heavy on promises, light on substance.

Anyone foolish enough after the last 7 years to not demand accountability deserves what they get, but the rest of us do not.
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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #111
117. There goes my monitor!
In a spray of coffee....not only funny as heck, but ultimately, absolutely, true!
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
112. Ponies dude, ponies! n/t
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desertflamingo Donating Member (152 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
119. beautifully written.
thank you.

EDWARDS DEMOCRAT
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Blue-Jay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
124. .
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
126. What absolute and utter bullshit. Coming from an Edwards supporter, I am shocked. There is not
even any sense arguing with you, John, that much is clear. You've made up your mind and created fancy words, false words, to enshroud your argument. You'll fit right in with Hillary's crowd in that respect. Try to do it, from here on out, without the negative distortions. Good god almighty.
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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #126
166. I don't agree
Just because I can frame a cogent argument and then argue it successfully, only makes me a danger to a crowd of cultists, which relies heavily upon hearing affirmations from their other friends, and avoiding THINKING at all costs.

You did it yourself, by trying to diminish what I'm saying by attacking me PERSONALLY. That is absolutely CULT-LIKE. Besides, I don't support Hillary either.

I hate CORPORATISM, and the Democratic Party, no longer liberal, is foisting two different flavors of the same candidate on us.

Too bad the truth strikes home about the emptiness of Obama 's promises. Keep believing his hopes and dreams won't eventually cost you something.
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AlaskaMaddie2008 Donating Member (8 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 12:32 AM
Response to Original message
129. Im glad Im not the only one....................
Who believes Mr. Obama is all flowery speech, and NO REAL solutions.Right now, Im not even shure if he should be Vice president.He might infect Hillary.:scared:
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REDFISHBLUEFISH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 12:39 AM
Response to Original message
131. Hillary 08! Dreams take work!
Dreams require work!
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #131
134. Twenty years of two-family dynasty is enough.
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 03:56 AM
Response to Reply #134
149. And having one family run two countries, America and Kenya is any better?
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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #134
176. What does that mean?
Time to get serious here.

Do you Obamites realize you are CULTISTS?
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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #131
145. Words are cheap.
Bumper Sticker Slogans are not going to solve this country's problems.

And neither will she.
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BlackVelvet04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 03:04 AM
Response to Original message
143. I found out that the Obama supporters don't believe
in compromise and bi-partisanship at all.....they believe they can coerce everyone into going along with their plan. It's not fantasy it's deception.



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stickernation Donating Member (317 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 03:44 AM
Response to Original message
144. we're going to have to do it ourselves :P

look, we haven't had a president for what, seven years now ? i don't think i'm going to start having one just because it's the hip thing to do and all the cool kids are into it or whatever.

it is a strange thing being a liberal in the era of *. you basically don't have a government at all, you have a system controlled by enemies who want to create REAL enemies abroad. it is almost enough to make you want to be an anarchist.

and then, you sit through a phony election halfway through, maybe think, "americans can't be THAT stupid can they?" and then they turn out to be that stupid. so four more years of *.

and THEN, just when you finally find a candidate that makes you almost believe again in the potential of american government, his message gets eclipsed by - basically - money and institutional power (the M$M springs immediately to mind).

the whole POINT of JRE's candidacy was "don't drink the kool-aid". months of picking obama and clinton apart leave me hardly able to support them. all of a sudden, back into "lesser of two evils" mode. you try, you TRY to find substance to Obama that isn't just a policy statement that someone else wrote for him - it just DOESN'T WORK OUT. you even follow LINKS ! and there's NO THERE THERE - just a bunch of policies warmed up and a foggy notion that he'd try to do some of these things if elected. and that's all you get! other than "the kids can make this guy president and wouldn't that be AWESOME!"

Obama's speeches - pep rallies really - boil down to "Look at YOU out there ! All of you ! So diverse ! And all VOTING FOR ME !!! RIGHT ON ! FIRED UP ! CHANGE !!!" It's infuriating. He's selling the crowd to itself. It's classic demagoguery. "What he stands for is unimportant - what is important is that all my friends are here with me."

the point is - and JRE supporters know this - we hope there's a Democrat in the office because maybe then we won't go to war with Iran, maybe then we will withdraw from Iraq, maybe then the world won't spit at us all the time for having elected a total moron. other than that, we're on our own. i'm re-focused on what I can do to promote the Edwards Agenda... *WITHOUT* the government.

We are poor. The rich will do nothing for us. The rich control the government and the electoral process. The poor are therefore advised not to look to such a government to assist them. We have to do it for ourselves - we have to begin a new government for ourselves. This is going to be a lot of hard work but it is just barely possible. That is my belief, and Edwards has turned each and every one of us into the people who will create this government out of thin air.

So Obama or Clinton, just don't start world war three OK ? that is all I am freaking asking - for some TIME while we build something that will render your entire system of government obsolete. just give us some time. i harbor very strong doubts that a president mccain or a president romney will give us even that. :( so go democrats, i will support you in november.

at least obama should get angrier. i think that would possibly draw me into reconsideration of his candidacy. we'll see. "people have the power!" sounds a bit too much like "a thousand points of light" to me... and a thousand candles cannot long resist the suffocating darkness of the conspiracy that permeates the American and global polity. but i'm not going to say "we need a government to light it back up". this is where people power REALLY means something - people must light it up for each other.

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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 05:37 AM
Response to Reply #144
152. "What he stands for is unimportant - what is important is that all my friends are here with me."
Great Post! Thanks for your contribution!!!

How scary. How true.
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LadyVT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 03:51 AM
Response to Original message
146. Great Post, but it's hard to argue with infatuated people
They are projecting so very hard, no matter what you say, you will be wrong.
Projection requires a blank screen, and Obama is good at that...so far.
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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #146
165. A purposeful blank screen at that!
Notice how many Obamatons will put you on ignore , if what you say is not so easily dismissed!

That is one of the essential components of any cult, the need to sever the connection to disquieting thoughts, while simultaneously repreating mantras of total support.

Can you say GOBAMA.

It is at once a bizzare experience, yet fascinating to watch, from a psychological standpoint.
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Helga Scow Stern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #165
182. Yes, Obamamania is interesting from a psychological and even spiritual perspective.
Edited on Sun Feb-03-08 01:57 PM by Ojai Person
I did my Ph.D. (abd) research on the shadow of spiritual groups. Narcissism is at the center of cult mentality. Having buried our own souls in this culture, we gravitate toward someone who will share a little of their own narcissistic power and not expose the lie that we are hollow. Narcissism, by the definition I have come to use, is having been made to feel ashamed of having a soul. The poor remind us that we have souls, so real engagement with that issue is far too painful. Hence $100 a head to see Obama speak. No poor people in sight. But he has that covered because he worked with the poor in Chicago. The story and the myth is enough. Like how on Nip Tuck, the astute over the top TV show about two plastic surgeons, the fabulously wealthy and successful agents seduce celebrities into signing with them by taking afternoon junkets to rebuild a house in New Orleans. This kind of propaganda could be used against Edwards, except he really connects with the poor. He talks to them and lets them know to their face that they matter. There is nothing abstract about it. That's why celebs are much more comfortable lining up behind Obama, until they go through some kind of awakening where they are no longer cut off from their souls.

Oh well. It's Sunday morning after all.
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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #182
184. Great post
Don't you find this cultism will have an inevitably UNFAVORABLE conclusion?

I know you will agree with me, as to when the members will wake up......
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lostnotforgotten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 03:52 AM
Response to Original message
148. Goverenace Is About Policy, Not About Hopes And Prayers!
eom
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RestoreGore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 07:55 AM
Response to Original message
157. Yes, where will they all be once the balloons and confetti drop?
Good post.
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
161. How refreshing! This is the kind of post which once attracted me to DU in the first place. AWESOME!!
What a fantastic post. I hope you don't mind if I forward your thoughts to some friends of mine and some of my family members who will enjoy reading it as much as I did. Thank you!

:thumbsup:
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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #161
167. Anytime
my good friend! Spread the word about what an Obamite is at their psychological core.
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ms liberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
163. K&R...n/t
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windoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
168. Thanks for the warning
ClericJohnPreston. Yes, we have had our dreams stolen from us, the illusions and veils are wearing thin. Americans must retrieve our own dreams, and admit we have allowed them to be tread on to some extent. We give away our power by living life as voyeurs, allowing sound bites and images to replace hard facts and personal responsibility.
America has been deeply wounded by corruption and certainly a vision of the future is necessary to heal our country. The warning is this: Beware of making our next president into some kind of saviour, it is not only unfair to him since he is mortal--but we will be making the same mistake of projecting an archetypal hero onto our leader. This is exactly how Bush&Co gained their power, by replacing hard facts with a demand for faith.
Don't get me wrong--I know envisioning comes before manifestation--dreams speak to the heart, and our hearts have been so damaged by the betrayal of our leaders, but we must not forget our heads or we could be vulnerable to be lead down another path of smoke and mirrors.
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balantz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
170. K&R
Eloquently put friend:thumbsup:
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GrimReefa Donating Member (161 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
171. The War Authorization Vote is all you need to know
Edited on Sun Feb-03-08 12:33 PM by GrimReefa
Courage, Leadership, Better Judgement, Power of Conviction; Hillary and Edwards abandoned all of these things in favor of political opportunism, and in the process marginalized all of the millions and millions of Democrats, including (I'm guessing) about 99.5% of the posters on these boards, regardless of who they support now.

So you can talk about who has this plan or that plan, and who supposedly cares about what, but when the chips are down and the people of this party need a reasoned, solid, and courageous voice speaking on our behalf, well, the facts do speak for themselves.

Barack Obama stood with us on Day One, when the other candidates, your boy included, told us WE were being unreasonable.
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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #171
172. Nice try, but inaccurate, of course
Obama is courageous? How exactly, as he has voted in lockstep to keep funding this war and doesn't have a plan for withdrawal that is as aggressive as Edwards plan.

Obama has never met a Big Pharma dollar he didn't like. He will sell us all down the river, where health insurance is concerned.

Don't spout platitudes and bites of information propaganda; try giving details and specifics about any Obama plan. Hmmm?

We will be waiting a long time.......
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GrimReefa Donating Member (161 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #172
185. It's called responsibility
As in, if you rush into a stupid war against a country that did nothing to you, kill thousands of civilians, overthrow the government, and destroy all of the infrastructure, you don't just say, "Good luck, guys!"

A careless evacuation would be almost as destructive as the careless invasion. Edwards voted to stupidly march right in, and now he stupidly wants to march right back out. This country owes the people of Iraq a thoughtful, careful withdrawl, not immediate abandonment.

That doesn't mean we stay for 100 years -the Bush/McCain position is just as absurd and unhelpful. Don't confuse Obama's caution with Bush's idiocy.
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PerpetuallyDazed Donating Member (806 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #171
173. But who continued funding? And voted against redeployment UNTIL 2006?
Compare & Contrast. There really ain't much difference between these two anyway. :shrug:

From ontheissues.org:

Obama:

Homeland Security -
# Voted NO on removing need for FISA warrant for wiretapping abroad. (Aug 2007)
# Voted YES on limiting soldiers' deployment to 12 months. (Jul 2007)
# Voted YES on implementing the 9/11 Commission report. (Mar 2007)
# Voted YES on preserving habeus corpus for Guantanamo detainees. (Sep 2006)
# Voted YES on requiring CIA reports on detainees & interrogation methods. (Sep 2006)
# Voted YES on reauthorizing the PATRIOT Act. (Mar 2006)
# Voted NO on extending the PATRIOT Act's wiretap provision. (Dec 2005)
# Voted YES on restricting business with entities linked to terrorism. (Jul 2005)
# Voted YES on restoring $565M for states' and ports' first responders. (Mar 2005)

Immigration -
# Voted YES on comprehensive immigration reform. (Jun 2007)
# Voted NO on declaring English as the official language of the US government. (Jun 2007)
# Voted YES on building a fence along the Mexican border. (Sep 2006)
# Voted YES on establishing a Guest Worker program. (May 2006)
# Voted YES on allowing illegal aliens to participate in Social Security. (May 2006)
# Voted YES on giving Guest Workers a path to citizenship. (May 2006)
# Rated 8% by USBC, indicating an open-border stance. (Dec 2006)

Welfare & Poverty
* Stop Fraud Act: full disclosure in subprime lending. (Sep 2007)
* Engages people of faith on all aspects of his public service. (Aug 2007)
* Community organizer on Chicago's South Side. (Feb 2007)
* Black churches minister to social needs out of necessity. (Oct 2006)
* Welfare receipts know how to become successful but need help. (Jul 2004)
* $100M increase in IL Earned Income Tax Credit. (Jun 2004)
* Inner city problems are the painful truths. (Aug 1996)
* Exorcise the ghostly figure that haunts black dreams. (Aug 1996)

Iraq -
# Voted to fund war until 2006; now wants no blank check. (Nov 2007)
# Late to vote against war is not late to oppose war. (Jun 2007)
# Spending on the Cold War relics should be for the veterans. (Jun 2007)
# Would have voted no to authorize the President to go to war. (Jul 2004)
# Voted YES on redeploying US troops out of Iraq by March 2008. (Mar 2007)
# Voted NO on redeploying troops out of Iraq by July 2007. (Jun 2006)
# Voted YES on investigating contract awards in Iraq & Afghanistan. (Nov 2005)

Clinton:

Homeland Security -
# Proposed Federal Interoperable Communication & Safety Act. (Oct 2006)
# Voted NO on removing need for FISA warrant for wiretapping abroad. (Aug 2007)
# Voted YES on limiting soldiers' deployment to 12 months. (Jul 2007)
# Voted YES on implementing the 9/11 Commission report. (Mar 2007)
# Voted YES on preserving habeus corpus for Guantanamo detainees. (Sep 2006)
# Voted YES on requiring CIA reports on detainees & interrogation methods. (Sep 2006)
# Voted YES on reauthorizing the PATRIOT Act. (Mar 2006)
# Voted NO on extending the PATRIOT Act's wiretap provision. (Dec 2005)
# Voted YES on restricting business with entities linked to terrorism. (Jul 2005)
# Voted YES on restoring $565M for states' and ports' first responders. (Mar 2005)
# Federalize aviation security. (Nov 2001)
# Rated 100% by SANE, indicating a pro-peace voting record. (Dec 2003)


Immigration -
# Voted YES on comprehensive immigration reform. (Jun 2007)
# Voted NO on declaring English as the official language of the US government. (Jun 2007)
# Voted YES on eliminating the "Y" nonimmigrant guestworker program. (May 2007)
# Voted YES on building a fence along the Mexican border. (Sep 2006)
# Voted YES on establishing a Guest Worker program. (May 2006)
# Voted YES on allowing illegal aliens to participate in Social Security. (May 2006)
# Voted YES on giving Guest Workers a path to citizenship. (May 2006)
# Rated 8% by USBC, indicating an open-border stance. (Dec 2006)


Welfare & Poverty -

* Partner with faith based community in empowerment zones. (Dec 2007)
* Considered idea of $5000 at birth to pay for future college. (Oct 2007)
* Time-out for mortgage companies on march toward foreclosure. (Sep 2007)
* Wellesley thesis: Saul Alinsky & people over bureaucrats. (Jun 2007)
* Hedge funds incentivize risk, but need regulation. (Apr 2007)
* Lazio weakened housing standards and limited public housing. (Oct 2000)
* Lazio fought against FHA on low-interest housing loans. (Oct 2000)
* Equal access to capital and jobs. (Jan 2000)
* Working should mean no poverty. (Jan 2000)
* Community involvement helps, but only in short term. (Dec 1999)
* Don’t criminalize the homeless. (Dec 1999)
* Microcredit is an invaluable tool in alleviating poverty. (Feb 1997)
* Link payments to good parenting behavior. (Feb 1997)
* Establish a National Affordable Housing Trust Fund. (Jul 2003)
* Tax credits to promite home ownership in distressed areas. (Apr 2003)
* Fully fund AmeriCorps. (Jun 2003)

Iraq -
# Voted for Iraq war based on available info; now would not. (Apr 2007)
# Critic of Iraq war, but won't recant 2002 vote in its favor. (Nov 2006)
# Regrets Bush's handling of war, but not her war vote. (Oct 2006)
# Voted YES on designating Iran's Revolutionary Guards as terrorists. (Sep 2007)
# Voted YES on redeploying US troops out of Iraq by March 2008. (Mar 2007)
# Voted NO on redeploying troops out of Iraq by July 2007. (Jun 2006)
# Voted YES on investigating contract awards in Iraq & Afghanistan. (Nov 2005)
# Voted YES on requiring on-budget funding for Iraq, not emergency funding. (Apr 2005)
# Voted YES on $86 billion for military operations in Iraq & Afghanistan. (Oct 2003)
# Voted YES on authorizing use of military force against Iraq. (Oct 2002)
# Condemns anti-Muslim bigotry in name of anti-terrorism. (Oct 2001)

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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #173
179. Right off an Obama website
ADMIT IT, ADMIT IT???

Cultist! Keep mixing dreams and fantasy with reality.

Your way, is the only way. "Magical thinking".

Sloganeering.
Ad Hominen attacks on the messenger or anyopne who disgrees with you.
Adoration of the cult figurehead.

Its all there.

100% cult-like!
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stimbox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
174. BO and HRC are cut from the same DLC cloth.
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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #174
180. As I've said
Edited on Sun Feb-03-08 01:38 PM by ClericJohnPreston
Two flavors of the same corporate candidate.
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stimbox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #180
181. Yep, two peas in a DLC pod
We have a choice of the out and proud DLCer Hillary or the on the down low DLCer Obama.
Oh boy. Whomever we vote for the DLC wins!
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
183. Hey, thanks for the sewage.
I never noticed your rants until it became apparentthat Obama has a shot. Funny, that.
DU has become a cesspool of mind numbing candidate idolatry and slander.

Enjoy your flamewars; I'm going back to the phone bank now,
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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #183
187. Try writing what I can
instead of Ad Hominen attacks.

Guess what this is?

Cult behavior.

If the shoe fits cultist.....
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