I'm a plump, middle aged woman who doesn't own an ipod...

[BooScout]

So I'm sure that pegs me as a Clinton Supporter. Deal with it.

Pardon me if I don't buy into the 'hoping for change' myth......and excuse me if I don't get chills down my spine when Obama speaks or when teenage children advise me to vote Obama because they know he's the one.

Being able to give charismatic speeches that fill your followers with 'hope for change' does not a hero make. Unfortunately with a generation fed on Hollywood, MTV and text messages, the soundbites are what have educated many.

So I'm cynical, I'm jaded and I'm pissed off. I don't really want a feel good candidate that wants to 'bring us all together'. I fucking want a candidate who will fucking kick some Republican Ass as soon as she is nominated. I want someone who can hold her own when the big boys start lobbing the shitballs in her direction..........just as she has stood up to the caca from her own kind for months on end now. I want someone who can stand up to the criticism and STILL stay on the issues....the Economy, health care, Foreign Policy for grown-ups.

I don't want to get along with all the assholes that got America into this mess in the first place and if that attitude makes me a has been old fuddy duddy according to the mainstream press and Obama then they can fuck off in tandem.

I have sat and watched so much bullshit come down the pike for the past 7 years that there's no way I want to kiss and make up and feel good about nothing in America. You don't like my anger? Then you can fuck off too.

This is not high school or college. This is real world, down and dirty politcs and if you want to beleive that anyone is going to change the system so radically that we will live in cities paved with gold and all love one another is beyond being naive....it's downright dangerous.

Wanting a 'love in' when we are clearly going into the biggest fight we have had yet is asking to lose. I'm not reaching out to any god damned Republicans for nothing. No way.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. I'm a plump, middle-aged woman who does own an iPod.

I was supporting Edwards, now leaning toward Obama because he more closely represents what I believe Edwards stands for.

Is the difference the iPod?

[Tactical Progressive]

34. No, the difference is all the other stuff

in between. The mature, thoughtful assessment stuff.

BTW, Obama represente LEAST CLOSELY what Edwards stood for. Edwards wanted to fight these people. Obama wants to work closely with them. Edwards said nothing short of that is an impossibility. Obama says being confrontational with them is 'the politics of the past'.

Edwards' perspective is diametrically opposed to Obama's. You sound like a charisma voter.

[Kermitt Gribble]

58. I agree 100%.

Obama supporters assuming that Edwards supporters should automatically support Obama ticks me off to no end. This post should have it's own thread.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

77. "A charisma voter"? LOL!

No, I don't think so; after all, I once voted for Walter Mondale. I have my reasons, though I could be persuaded. However, you won't change my mind by insulting either me or Obama.

I will caucus as "undecided" next week. After that I'll have to see who can persuade me.

[Tactical Progressive]

116. Well, voting for Walter Mondale

doesn't sound like a charisma voter, whatever the other reasons you chose to do so were. I'll grant you that.

But then maybe the lesson you took from that experience was exactly that - to vote for the charisma that won Ronald Reagan the election you had lost so soundly. That type of learning can be well below the conscious threshold. Maybe Obama is your Reagan revenge vehicle deep down.

And for the record, I don't think Obama has anywhere near the principled committment that Reagan had. Obama's not about much more than Obama.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

126. Don't attribute silly psychological motives to me.

First: My Monadale reference related to his last-minute 2002 Senate run after Wellstone was killed. Reagan's election has nothing to do with either my comment or my psyche. And I never thought Reagan was charismatic, anyhow.

Second: I'll decide who gets my vote on the basis of their positions on the issues and whether the evidence supports a reasonable belief that the candidates can be trusted to do what they say they're going to do. I hope I'll be able to separate the candidates themselves from the vituperation of some of their supporters.

And I have seen no more evidence that Obama is all about Obama any more than I've seen evidence that Hillary is all about Hillary. Maybe less, if you take Bill into consideration.

[Rene]

223. You're last sentence is so on target.

Obama is for obama....absolutly what I've observed.

[Clark2008]

275. But Edwards wasn't sincere.

I mean, if he was, why did he vote the way he did when he could have made a difference?

[Voice for Peace]

288. NOT my impression of Obama. [I am an undecided voter btw.]

"Obama says being confrontational with them is 'the politics of the past'."


There is a huge difference between confrontational Truth and nasty deceptive or manipulative bullshit.

I don't see Obama as being likely to pander to deceptive idiotic bullshit, and I think he may be smart enough to recognize it for what it is. This is why he was able to oppose the Iraq war before it began. Unlike the vast majority of politicians & the American public, he wasn't deceived or blinded by the spin.

I don't see him as having any problem with confronting lies and deceptions, cheat and deceit.

Maybe I am wrong but it's not the sense I've gotten from him. What I do see in him is a willingness to listen and consider viewpoints other than his own, and then use good judgement. This is essential for any human being who wants to learn, improve, evolve. Essential in a leader.

I have gotten the impression Obama is smart enough to recognize, and fierce enough to oppose, actions and ideologies that aren't good for this country.

I do get the sense from Clinton -- from both of the Clintons -- of some fundamental dishonesty.

I like the idea of a candidate who recognizes Fear Itself as the real enemy.
Lies, deception, greed -- these are minions of the great God Fear.
Fear would have us remain too stupid to think for ourselves, too timid to speak out, too embarrassed to oppose the status quo.
I'd really like to trust Hillary but I don't.

I'd appreciate not getting attacked for this post as I am still studying all candidates of all parties and examining my own prejudices and perceptions. I have not reached any firm conclusions about who might make a good president. I've got misgivings about all of them.

I'm a voice for peace and I approve this message.

[GrimReefa]

355. Mature, thoughtful assessment

We could have used some of that back in 2003, when the POTUS asked Congress to authorize him to start a war with a country that had done us no wrong because of evidence that didn't really exist.

A mature, thoughtful assessment would have led Senators Clinton and Edwards to backing up the millions of Democrats nationwide who demanded that this country stop beating the war drums for 1 minute to look at the actual cases being presented and to see that there was nothing - NOTHING - to justify a pre-empitvie invasion, something our country had never done in its existence and something which I ope to God we never do again.

A mature, thoughtful assessment would have told Hillay and Edwards that George W had no qualms whatsoever about invading based on shoddy, or in some cases outright manufactured, evidence, and that he would use this authorization not as leverage, but as an excuse to waltz right in.

You can talk about policy points and try and break down Hillary's health plan or Obama's economic plan, but at the end of the day it is a question of leadership, judgement, and character, and what are you going to do when the chips are down? Stand up for what you believe, or cave in to political opportunism. Hillary has answered that question, loudly and clearly.

[yardwork]

389. It's essential to confront the terrible things Republicans are doing.

Hillary is confrontational. I like that about her. I liked that about Edwards.

I'm a plump middle-aged ipod-less woman who agrees with the OP. Obama is ok. I don't think there is a big different between his policies and Hillary's. Obama's approach leaves me cold. I disagree that the "Politics of confrontation are the politics of the past." When the Democrats stopped being confrontational and started going along to get along, that's when things took a real dive.

Obama supporters criticize Hillary's vote for IWR and then laud Obama for saying that we should "reach out" to the Republicans. Seems to me that that is wanting to have it both ways.

I want confrontation with the Republicans.

[Stardust]

402. Me, too! nt

[femrap]

71. I was for Edwards as well....

and I don't see anything about Obama that resembles Edwards. Obama is taking big Corporate $$$$ and by no means wants to FIGHT the Corporations.

At least HRC will restore the programs and $$$ for women and children. And get rid of that overseas Gag order that kills women.

Obama just votes 'present' for Choice.

[demo dutch]

78. I really liked Edwards and now voting for Hillary too

[femrap]

220. I wonder if we will ever find out

what happened to Edwards...some kind of deal must have been made. Very disheartening to me. So on to Plan B...

[misanthrope]

97. You mean like she did in '94...

...when we all got our healthcare coverage?

Or like her husband's administration did--and she's trumpeting his record as part of her qualifications--when his regime was pockmarked with deregulation after deregulation?

[femrap]

218. I want the WH in '09 and

I think HRC can beat the repugnant....I don't think Obama can. Maybe you don't have a crazy Evangelical in your family...I do....which keeps me up-to-date on what the sheeple are being fed.

[truedelphi]

359. You are disobeyng the first theorem of Hillaryism

"Hear No Evil, See no Evil, Speak no Evil."

They Clinton supporters condone machine politics because it is the only way to get the job done (ie win the WH)

They condone the Rove-ism inherent in the manipulations that Hillary undertakes to manipulate public sentiment and to bring about a negative view of Edwards and Obama.

They overlook her participation in Bush getting the WH in 2004.

They feel it is fabulous that she is such a policy wonk -never mind that her 24,235 page idea of Health Insurance for this nation didn't get passed.

It wasn't passed because the middle income person didn't want it because it was going to be too expensive, the activists didn't want it because it kept the insurance companies in the mix for their 20% off-the-top reward, and the RW elite didn't want it. The RW set up ads to defeat it so they could continue with their jobs as insurance executives.

Hillary was so out of touch even then that she was braggin' that her health insurance scheme would only cost the $ 24,000 family of four a mere $ 4,000 a year. ("Hey honey, we can totally afford health insurance if we just quit going to the Riviera in the winter and to Aspen in the summer. Okay dear?" YEAH RIGHT!) Her formula worked if you lived in Arkansas where 1993 rents were cheap - not at all if you lived in any large city or on either coast.

Policy wonk-ism is good only if you have the political instincts of an LBJ and thus get your wonky project signed into law.

BTW Denmark has a National Universal Single Payer Health Plan that is written on less than one dozen pages!

[lapfog_1]

113. Again, please look at that little smear again and don't believe the Hillbots.

NARAL and PP (you know those anti-abortion, right to life organizations) ASKED Obama to vote "present".

So he did.

How did Hillary vote on the IWR? On Kyl-Lieberman?

Oh yeah...

[nonconformist]

123. How did Obama vote on Kyl-Lieberman?

Oh that's right - he didn't.

Did someone ask him to not vote on that, either?

:eyes:

[lapfog_1]

138. So, you would rather have someone that voted "aye"

on Kyl-Lieberman...

And I suppose the same is true of those right to life bills in IL too.

[nonconformist]

143. No, I'd rather have someone who is more qualified.

Considering the differences on these votes is negligible, I'm not basing my vote on them. I'm basing my vote on a number of issues.

[femrap]

215. I don't trust Obama....

plus I don't think he can win the General Election...and that is really all I care about...a Dem in the WH in '09.

[Rene]

225. any obama administration would be 4 years of chaos

Vote for Hillary. she deserves it. let obama mature more/and all of us watch him for 8 more years.

[GrimReefa]

357. You're out of your mind...

if you think Hillary Clinton has a better chance of winning the General than Obama.

I'm sorry, but that is ridiculous. Repubs hate Hillary. HATE HER. HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE her.

Right now the Republicans are about to nominate a man they do not believe in. The support for John McCain in the general election will be as tepid as we have seen in any Presidential election in recent memory.

Unless the Democratic Party nominates Hillary Clinton. There is not a person in the whole country on our side of the aisle we could find who would be more divisive than Hillary. Maybe Al Sharpton would come close. That's pretty much it.

If Hillary is the nominee, start saying "President McCain" now, so you're used to it.

[femrap]

395. The 'muslim' Obama...that is what

all of the Evangelicals are crying. Plus his inexperience.

You are young, have not traveled across the U.S. You have no idea what the people in the heartland and south are saying....

And it appears to me that you have a streak of misogyny running down your back, don't you?

I see no further reason for us to talk.

[Tarheel_Dem]

248. how do you cram so many lies into a single post? (eom)

[bluerum]

277. You mean she DOES have an ipod!! You can't trust anyone anymoe.

[beezlebum]

279. wow...

OBAMA taking corporate $$$??



HRC is the BIGGEST corporate candidate- even over republicans. Not to mention her former chair at walmart.

i am not just out to dawg hillary. but when i read threads like this, where people plan on voting for HRC- and that's fine, by all means, it is your own right to choose your candidate- but where people cite their reasons for HRC, and i see that there are SO many of those reasons that are contradictory the the facts...i'm mind boggled.

restore programs for women- her husband cut medicare and medicaid, and welfare "reform" was their baby- big help for women there. i know i know- she's running, not her husband, so i will stop there. overseas gag order that kills women? and yet she wants to stay in iraq till at least 2013, and has not ruled out military action on iran. i'm sure the women in those countries are ready for more war. :sarcasm:

obama- for starters, i am not happy to defend him, but his "present" vote is equivalent to voting "no" in the IL legislature. he supports roe v wade and, according to on the issues, has been the leader in IL leg. in the battle to protect a woman's right to choose. he voted NO on notifying parents of minors who get out-of-state abortions, and YES on $100M to reduce teen pregnancy by education & contraceptives. NRLC- anti-abortion group gives him 0%- yay verily. and the final women's rights issue i will address, although there are more, he believes the government should take stronger enforcement for the equal pay act and improve child care options and family medical leave.

on women's issues, which, even as a feminist, at this point plays a smaller role in my personal choice since it is more or less used as a distraction from all the other issues we should be focusing on, obama is right. he is not going to leave women out in the cold, nor will he reduce our rights.

as for foreign policy, in response to the OP, i want to know how his is not for "grown ups." he does not believe, as junior does, that violating the geneva conventions is acceptable for any reason. he is willing to meet with fidel castro, and hugo chavez, and kim jong-il; hillary, calling this "naive," would not do so without "preconditions." would she be more diplomatic in that case? one is left to wonder.

further,
from the youtube debate, july 07:
Q: Would you be willing to meet separately, without precondition, during the first year of your administration, with the leaders of Iran, Syria, Venezuela, Cuba and North Korea?

OBAMA: I would. And the reason is this: the notion that somehow not talking to countries is punishment to them--which has been the guiding diplomatic principle of this administration--is ridiculous. Ronald Reagan constantly spoke to Soviet Union at a time when he called them an evil empire. He understood that we may not trust them and they may pose an extraordinary danger to this country, but we had the obligation to find areas where we can potentially move forward. And I think that it is a disgrace that we have not spoken to them.

CLINTON: I will not promise to meet with the leaders of these countries during my first year. I don't want to be used for propaganda purposes. I don't want to make a situation even worse. But I certainly agree that we need to get back to diplomacy.

what, is "grown up" policy the sabre-rattling and provocation that the bush administration has engaged in? her foreign policy is not for "adults," unless you count the kind who profit off of war.

the whole "grown up" "naive" thing was a way of making obama look small. even before my candidates dropped out, and i swore i would never vote for obama (and i still may not), it seemed very propagandish to me- keep insinuating that he's too young, and people won't trust him.

grown ups engage in diplomacy; they don't, as vonnegut put it, to paraphrase, use our military like toys some rich kid got for christmas. and they don't make a forthright promise to put diplomacy on the back burner- especially in this very unstable worldwide climate. using tactics like 'not w/o preconditions' is one thing once your in office, to to make such a promise before even being the candidate makes me quite wary.

i've seen clintonian foreign policy. i don't always agree with obama on his (for he was among those citing iran as a threat and that 'no options should be taken off the table) nor have i seen the full extent of what his would be, but here he is two points ahead of HRC, one- and i am sorry that i have to include the potential first spouse- i think bill's own history is one of the many reasons i can not trust HRC's, and two, because of her stance on diplomacy versus obama's.

edit to add a ps- i don't own an ipod either. i'm the sorta old fashioned type who likes listening to those huge, flat, black discus things.

[ClintonTyree]

316. Very impressive graphs. NOT!

Well, they may be, to the untrained or cursory eye, but if you closely look at the amounts of money given by these various entities you'll find that they vary only by a few thousand dollars. Obama has taken more than his share from each and every one as well, and, as you point out, more than most Republicans have taken.

Obama is the sweet little lamb, not beholding to corporate interests? :rofl: Try again. Hillary may be the winner in all categories (as far as Democrats go) but Obama is a VERY close second. Factor in Clinton's name recognition and it's surprising how MUCH Obama has hauled in being a junior Senator from a mid-western state.

Yes, Obama has done very well at the trough, thank you. :)

[beezlebum]

322. if you'd read the entire thing

you'd see that i am NOT an obama supporter. i admit that he is *also* a DINO and that he has strong corporate interests. nowhere in that post did i say he was NOT corporatist- but i was responding to this:

"Obama is taking big Corporate $$$$ (so does hillary, only mooooore) and by no means wants to FIGHT the Corporations." (helloooo, neither will hillary!!!)

because it was cited as reasoning why clinton was better than obama. just pointing out that so is she, and she's taking more.

once. again. for all you old people who have lost patience with us younguns:
i do not support obama, i simply see too much irony here- he beats or is as good as hillary on so many issues on this thread.

[ClintonTyree]

400. GET OFF MY GRASS!

"once. again. (sic) for all you old people who have lost patience with us younguns:"

Maybe your superlative "youngun" eyes should check my response again. At NO time did I say you were an Obama supporter, but I have a sneaking suspicion that you are, at the very least, a "closet" Obama supporter. ;) I was pointing out that the graphs you so diligently provided (undoubtedly to be nothing but fair, after all :eyes: ) aren't quite what they seem to be.

And thanks for bringing up age. It's hilarious to make fun of old people, isn't it? :rofl: Yeah, we're nothing but doddering old fools, drooling into a cup ,constantly saying, "why back in my day"! :eyes: I'm glad we can provide comic relief for the young, who's superior knowledge and experience make older American's pale in comparison. You "younguns" have all the answers, right?

Bite me, sonny. ;)

[beezlebum]

401. wtf?? "thanks for bringing up age?"

give credit where credit's due!

first of all, regarding the graph, i wasn't doing it to be unfair. once again- simply pointing out the irony of citing obama as corporate when explaining one's inclination toward clinton. i know you already read that.

but, more importantly, back to the opening line: sorry for the confusion- i was being obtuse regarding age to make a point. it is not the younger people on this thread making themselves out to be superior. read it again- anyone under middle age seems to be completely dismissed on this entire thread, and i took offense to that. yeah, we're just a bunch of babies waddling around in our diapers, right?

if it could be suggested that younger voters are too naive, then, yup, to be fair, it could be suggested that their elders are senile and/or bitter. and that is my obtuse, completely insincere, argument.

please, i honestly meant no harm. i will not bite thee...but if you insist on it, it's "missy," not "sonny." ;)

[GrimReefa]

362. And Hillary votes "aye" for stupid wars

If you like the War in Iraq, you'll love the Hillary administration! After all, she voted to bring it to you!

[GMFORD]

289. I'm a plump, middle-aged woman who doesn't own an iPod.

But I'm supporting Obama. For me, the difference is one of style. Hillary talks about what she will do for us. Obama talks about what we can do together.

And to plump middle-aged women everywhere I say -- we're too young to give up hope.

[KaryninMiami]

320. I'm with you and I own an I-Pod but---

it's sitting in the box (was a gift) and I have yet to take the plunge to learn how to use it. I confess, I still have my walkman because (silly but true), it's the only thing I can find (Except buying an XM radio) to listen live to AM radio while walking so I can walk to Air America. What can I say?

But, I just sent a newsletter out to a few hundred friends stating that I have turned the Obama corner. Yes we can- and we must! Enough is enough.

And he's the one I think that can do this.

[rox63]

2. I'm also a plump, middle-aged woman without an ipod, and I support Obama

Different strokes, etc...

[elizm]

31. I'm a middle-aged grandma with 2 ipods and I support Obama. :)

[rufus dog]

68. Rock on Granny!

[elizm]

81. You bet! :) nt

[Captain_Nemo]

3. Hillary is the one the republicans fear because she can beat McCain. Her record is

is great. Her work for women and children is amazing.

Here is this from Robin Morgan:

"And goodbye to the ageism . . .

How dare anyone unilaterally decide when to turn the page on history, papering over real inequities and suffering constituencies in the promise of a feel-good campaign? How dare anyone claim to unify while dividing, or think that to rouse US youth from torpor it’s useful to triage the single largest demographic in this country’s history: the boomer generation--the majority of which is female?

Older woman are the one group that doesn’t grow more conservative with age—and we are the generation of radicals who said “Well-behaved women seldom make history.” Goodbye to going gently into any goodnight any man prescribes for us. We are the women who changed the reality of the United States. And though we never went away, brace yourselves: we’re back!

We are the women who brought this country equal credit, better pay, affirmative action, the concept of a family-focused workplace; the women who established rape-crisis centers and battery shelters, marital-rape and date-rape laws; the women who defended lesbian custody rights, who fought for prison reform, founded the peace and environmental movements; who insisted that medical research include female anatomy, who inspired men to become more nurturing parents, who created women’s studies and Title IX so we all could cheer the WNBA stars and Mia Hamm. We are the women who reclaimed sexuality from violent pornography, who put child care on the national agenda, who transformed demographics, artistic expression, language itself. We are the women who forged a worldwide movement. We are the proud successors of women who, though it took more than 50 years, won us the vote.

We are the women who now comprise the majority of US voters.

Hillary said she found her own voice in New Hampshire. There’s not a woman alive who, if she’s honest, doesn’t recognize what she means. Then HRC got drowned out by campaign experts, Bill, and media’s obsession with All Things Bill.

So listen to her voice:

“For too long, the history of women has been a history of silence. Even today, there are those who are trying to silence our words.

“It is a violation of human rights when babies are denied food, or drowned, or suffocated, or their spines broken, simply because they are born girls. It is a violation of human rights when woman and girls are sold into the slavery of prostitution. It is a violation of human rights when women are doused with gasoline, set on fire and burned to death because their marriage dowries are deemed too small. It is a violation of human rights when individual women are raped in their own communities and when thousands of women are subjected to rape as a tactic or prize of war. It is a violation of human rights when a leading cause of death worldwide along women ages 14 to 44 is the violence they are subjected to in their own homes. It is a violation of human rights when women are denied the right to plan their own families, and that includes being forced to have abortions or being sterilized against their will.

“Women’s rights are human rights. Among those rights are the right to speak freely--and the right to be heard.”

That was Hillary Rodham Clinton defying the US State Department and the Chinese Government at the 1995 UN World Conference on Women in Beijing (the full, stunning speech: http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/hillaryclinton... ).

And this voice, age 22, in “Commencement Remarks of Hillary D. Rodham, President of Wellesley College Government Association, Class of 1969” (full speech: http://www.wellesley.edu/PublicAffairs/Commencement/196... )

http://www.womensmediacenter.com /

[DesertFlower]

30. i'm a 66 year old woman

in good shape. i don't own an ipod and i voted for obama.

[GMFORD]

291. Good shape?

I hereby revoke your membership in the plump middle-aged women's club. ;~)

[Yurovsky]

134. McCain would STOMP Hillary ...

and every reasonable person can plainly see that. Hillary's politics of personal destruction have given her a permanent negative rating in excess of 40% - almost 50%. It's damn near impossible to overcome that, unless there is a serious 3rd party candidate who can siphon off enough independent votes so as to make it impossible for the GOP candidate to have a chance.

Senator Obama comes to the table without all of Hillary's baggage, and immediately 80% of those independent votes that were never going to vote for Hillary are now in play. I see Obama as a much harder target for McCain to lay a glove on. Hillary (and Bill, he's in this too) haven't even made the donor list from their WJC Library public ... nor have they opened up the years of communications while they were in the White House. You think the GOP isn't going to get their filthy hands on that stuff?

No how, no way does Hillary beat McCain. Senator Obama has a much more realistic shot, and will set records for bringing out the youth vote as well as re-energizing African-American voters who've felt generally disenfranchised following the election frauds of 2000 (Florida et al) and 2004 (Ohio).

Lastly, Bill Clinton's openly racist Southern Strategy is going to prevent Hillary from getting the degree of black support she would need to win in November. Time to come to grips with that, as Black America already has.

[Captain_Nemo]

167. You should listen to the republican strategist Dan Schurr on To The POint NPR

http://www.kcrw.com/news/programs/tp


Listen to the podcast THU JAN 31, 2008
The Race for President Comes Down to the Final Four

Schurr says that clinton is the harder candidate to beat becasue of her military knowledge and "everything she has done to move to the center on issues like Iraq." Now before you go screaming about IWR, listen. HE said that McCain does not want to debate Hillary particularly on domestic issues.

I got my post from this show. I thought it interesting. Maybe you should listen to it.

[pnwmom]

260. Hillary's positive rating is over 50%, and that's all she needs.

Especially because it is higher among women, and women comprise 54% of the population.

Hillary has an excellent chance of beating John McCain, and I say this as someone who doesn't favor either of the remaining candidates. I'll support either one of them gladly.

John McCain is going to be stuck defending Bush and the indefinite continuation of his awful war. I don't know how anyone could think he would have an easy time of that. Hillary can say, as she has said (paraphrasing), No one can say that my first priority isn't national security. I voted for the IWR because I trusted the information Bush was giving us. But we accomplished our goal, Hussein is out, and it's long past time for the Iraqis to finish solving their own problems. We will begin moving troops out of Iraq within two months of taking office.

John McCain would have a lot easier time portraying Obama as "weak" on security than HRC. That's why so many DUers hate her -- because they think she's pro-war.

[sickinohio]

352. I'm not so sure about that.

My daughter who is a HUGE kool-aid drinker, believes all the repuke lies, can not see the truth about the bu$h administration, no matter what the facts show, is a die-hard Limpballs fan along with Man Coulter (and Hannity of course, can't leave him out) (I didn't raise her to be that way, but I do love her still), was over here yesterday and we (sort-of) were able to talk a little politics. Anyway, she made this statement "if McCain wins, she'll either sit this election out, or she will do as ManCoulter is going to do, vote for Billary (her word not mine)".

Anyway, my point is she is a sheeple, and there are many, many sheeple out there that can't think for themselves, and probably feel the same as she does, so they will do as Limpballs or ManCoulter tells them to do: Don't vote for McCain he's a flip-flopping liberal, or whatever it is that they call him.

[demo dutch]

4. Luv you honey!! .... It's time for a woman WITH experience! Ipod and all!

[geek tragedy]

5. Thank you for not caring about the future of the party.

Who cares if those young voters become Democrats or not? After all, you're pissed and your feelings are what count.

[BooScout]

10. I take it you own an ipod

Text this: :eyes:

[smalll]

20. Oooh - snap!

Nice work on the OP by the way! :applause: Take a rec!

[asjr]

72. Every word she said--Ipod or no-Ipod is

true. I am a plump 75-year old woman who wouldn't know an I-pod from a A-pod and it wouldn't matter. What matters to me is going with the seniority and experience. All the youngsters want to get in on the action and vote Obama because he is the man of the hour. They don't think. Hillary Clinton has proved to me many times over that she is the one to lead us. I care more about this country to want someone of Hillary's caliber. Poke fun of an old lady if you must--it won't faze me--but I want the real thing.

[geek tragedy]

135. Yes, people who vote for Obama are stupid and

you're so awesomely smart.

Keep on telling young people that their vote shouldn't count. That'll help the future of the party.

[pnwmom]

262. Keep on telling young women that they're invisible to you.

ALL young people want Obama, apparently.

That shows the level of your intelligence.

[femrap]

79. And what? You expect us to

'mother' them. Aren't they sweet...they're going to vote. Obama has insulted the Baby Boomers and our excesses of the '60's and '70's.

I see him as very calculating...the Reagan praise and then says at the debate...'I didn't say they were good policies.' Very sly and slick.

And we had 'HOPE' in 1992 w/ B. Clinton.

[Tarheel_Dem]

249. but those hopes were soon dashed, once triangulation and lies set in.....

1992? Puhleez......

[pnwmom]

261. I think you're forgetting that more than half of young voters are female.

Many young women, like my daughter and her college friends, are very excited about the idea of the first woman President.

[geek tragedy]

310. Most young women still vote for Obama. n/t

[Joe the Revelator]

6. They call people like you, who are afraid of change....

conservatives.

[demo dutch]

9. No they call people like us wise!

[Joe the Revelator]

12. No, whats happend is the good liberals from the 60's have grown up to become

good conservatives. Thats really what the fight within the party is about this year.

[BooScout]

23. I live with socialism.....

on a daily basis in a country that has national health care. You have no idea what a conservative is. The entire democratic party is conservative compared to the Liberals I know.

[demo dutch]

29. You must be living in Europe! I miss Europe! You're right they have no idea

what socialism and progressive is

[krabigirl]

188. I bet! My Dh is from France, and says that all the time. You are lucky!!!

[demo dutch]

25. If I were a conserative I would not be on this forum and I'd be voting for the other side!

[Joe the Revelator]

41. Instead your just hoping to nominate the most conservative candidate for our party

[demo dutch]

63. Americans have no idea wat progressive is. Having lived in Europe

I can tell you Barack and Hillary are both conservative. I'm going for the one who at least has the experience!

[BooScout]

80. Bingo.....

Of course you can't tell an Obama fan that.

[Joe the Revelator]

93. I didn't realize living in Europe gave you moral authority in all argument over american politics

You should have warned me, I wouldn't even let this conversation go this far.

[BooScout]

133. Living abroad......

As an American and being aware of how American Politics affects the global community doesn't make one a 'moral authority' over American Politics, but it does give one a better comprehension of what is a real Liberal and a real Conservative.

[Lost-in-FL]

299. Amen to that...

I agree with you that both Obama and Hillary are conservatives in the eyes of Europeans.

[NoBorders]

341. I've lived in Europe

My mother still lives there. I agree that the center of American politics is much to the right of the center of European politics.

Both Hillary and Obama are not leftists by European standards.

Anyhow, there's nothing about having lived abroad or understanding European politics that would lead one to vote for Hil over Barack. I'm voting for Obama personally.

[BooScout]

363. I never said there was...

I was responding to the person calling me a conservative when they obviously don't have a clue as to what a conservative actually is.

[nonconformist]

112. Well, that would be Obama.

They're both centrists, but Hillary is more liberal than Obama... both in policy and voting records.

[yardwork]

391. Both Hillary and Obama are very conservative compared to me.

There's little difference in their policies or their votes.

That train has left the station. The Democrats are now choosing between two very conservative candidates.

[GMFORD]

293. Not all of us.

And not Ted and Caroline Kennedy and not Susan Eisenhower.

[JVS]

60. If you have to claim that people call you wise, you aren't.

Cpme back in 20 more years and maybe people will call you wise of their own volition.

[demo dutch]

66. Inexperience sat in the WH for the last 8 yrs. We don't need more inexperience!!

[JVS]

87. Tell me which two Greenhorns inside the current administration appear in this photo

[Straight Shooter]

136. Tell me which one of those is now president.

(If you guess the one on the right, you might be correct.)

[colorado_ufo]

235. Unlike cheese and fine wine,

he did NOT age well!

[BooScout]

14. Sweetie I can do change.......

I upped sticks and moved to a different continent when I was 44. What have you done life changing lately? Other than support a man of 'hope' and 'change'?

[Joe the Revelator]

22. Pumpkin, don't try to play the big bad changer with me

My life is nothing but change. The difference my experience with change didn't scare me away with it for the rest of my life.

[demo dutch]

Heh I did that at 25 and at 30 and at 40 and 45!

[jillan]

17. They call people like us, people that know from experience - who is more likely

to bring us change.

We've all been fooled before, and now know better.

[incapsulated]

32. And we call people like you gullible fools

Because we have lived long enough to know bullshit when we see and hear it.

[BooScout]

Thankfully some of us get it.....

Someone has got to break it to them that they are living in some sort of fantasy world.

[incapsulated]

91. I don't know, collective amnesia?

Honestly, I see people here spouting this love and hope crap who were ready to crucify the Dems for endlessly rolling over for the rethugs just a few months ago.

Has everyone dropped acid?

Fucking insane.

[girl gone mad]

194. Well, Hillary was one of the ones rolling over..

so we're kinda between a rock and a hard place.

[incapsulated]

199. I know what I'm getting with Hillary

And I predict she will be hard ass in the White House and at the very least push for what she wants done.

Obama? He is starting off making kissy faces and sending valentines across the aisle. He may as well put a big target on his forehead.

No "hope".

[divineorder]

377. Hard Ass only Works if there's Good Will Before

Hillary would come in hated from day one. And tom-catting Bill and money grubbing Bill will make even more enemies on the moderate right. To be a true hard-ass for the people, you would have to be so loved by the people that the people will stand on your side. What chance does Hill have of that?

[Auntie Bush]

174. Hee, hee, I love it! You go girl.

[mondo joe]

38. The OP does not indicate any fear of change. Please learn to disagree without insulting

others. You will be taken more seriously.

[aquart]

There's a name for you, too, dear.

[pnwmom]

263. She's not AFRAID of change. She wants a candidate who will be EFFECTIVE

in bringing about change.

Why are you completely distorting what she said?

[BooScout]

295. perhaps because.....

Deep down they know that we are right? And it makes them mad when they find out they are wrong.

[Radical Activist]

7. Its funny how much Obama supporters sound like Clinton '92 supporters

with all the talk of hope, vision and change. While Clinton supporters today sound more like George Bush supporters of '92.

"Its the vision thing."

[jillan]

8. This chubby middle aged woman says -

You go girl!

A big k/r!!!

[emilyg]

239. This grandma says "Go Hillary.

K&R

[NYCGirl]

11. I'm a middle aged woman who owns an iPhone and I'm sick of 50% + 1 politics.

[Mojambo]

13. Honestly, I just came in this thread to check out all the plump, middle aged women

Looooookin good!

:evilgrin:

[elizm]

37. LOL! Too funny! :)

[demo dutch]

46. :)

[BooScout]

55. Smooches

:loveya:

[sellitman]

206. You beat me to it!

Any good ones left?


:evilgrin:

[GMFORD]

297. Hey, thanks.

I'm getting really cranky about other cranky middle-aged women stating that all of us are supporting Hillary when it's simply not true. Apparently more than half of us are but the rest of us recognize a winner in Obama.

[livetohike]

15. Middle aged woman - no i-pod either but I can still reach down

and find that optimism that has been lacking in this country for too many years. I can still remember being young and filled with hope and inspired by RFK and Gene McCarthy.

Young people do not need to be turned off. They need to be turned on and motivated and kill the evil crap that most politicians spew. Us and them.

It's bull shit.

[bigwillq]

16. I'm a 145-pound almost 30 year old who doesn't own an ipod

and I don't get the Obama hype either. He has some good ideas, so does Clinton, but he doesn't inspire me or make me get chills either.

I thought both he and Clinton did a fantastic job at the debate the other night but neither candidate did what Dean did for me.

I will vote for either one in the GE but I have yet to "get" Obama's appeal.

[DinahMoeHum]

18. n/t

n/t

[Individualist]

19. I'm a skinny old woman who doesn't own an ipod,

and hell will freeze over before I vote for a DLC member. Deal with it.

[Name removed]

271. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[calmblueocean]

21. If Hillary had shown leadership on that IWR vote, I might be in her camp today

But she showed cowardice. She chose political career strategizing over the lives and freedom of tens of thousands of human beings.

That's not someone who kicks right wing butt... it's someone who kisses right wing butt.

At least it seems that way to me. But I still think getting into this war was a mistake, and that voting for it was a mistake. Not many Democrats do anymore.

[pnwmom]

264. I say it wasn't cowardice.

The Democrats were " damned if they do, damned if they don't." Bush had already announced that he had a legal opinion from the Attorney General that said he could attack Iraq, and he was determined to attack whether or not he had an IWR. Biden, Lugar, and Hagel thought that would be an awful precedent to set -- a President going to war without authorization, with no serious possible consequences (yes, he could have been impeached, but without the votes for conviction, impeachment would be just a slap on the wrist.) So they worked out a compromise IWR with the White House that limited Bush to Iraq, and enough Dems supported it that Bush had no excuse for invading Iraq WITHOUT any resolution, as he was determined to do.

And thanks to the wording of the resolution, AT LEAST Bush has held back on attacking Iran. Otherwise, we'd almost certainly be there.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4360083&mesg_id=4360083

[Deja Q]

24. I want a candidate that'll give the working class hope and acceptance.

That's the bottom line, though I don't mind playing limbo if need be...

[ClassWarrior]

26. A candidate who will kick Republican Ass as soon as she is nominated? What's she been waiting for??!

And what in her record makes you think she'll do that AFTER she's nominated, when she hasn't done it yet??

:eyes:

NGU.

[bread_and_roses]

144. Exactly so. And I'm a middle-aged woman who doesn't own an Ipod either,,,

...and wish that I could support the woman candidate. However, I can't - which, with Edwards out, leaves me with Obama. I don't like his rhetoric, but I have more hope of him than I do of Hillary. I see no sign of Hillary "kicking Bush's ass." Worst of all, she's embraced militarism, while we've created an unfathomable number of orphans in Iraq and killed and maimed countless more children. Nor did her husband's draconian RW welfare "reform" policies do anything for the poor women and children of this country. So she has no cred with me as a "champion" of children. She's evidently willing to keep incinerating and dismembering them with aerial strikes in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[LVjinx]

147. Er

Could it be that she's not the nominee, and there's not a nominee on the Republican side yet either? She's focused on winning the nomination, as is Obama. How much Republican ass has Obama kicked? None? Well then, I'd say the point is moot.

[JVS]

272. But her Senate career was as if she was conducting a "Tribute to Folding"

[ClassWarrior]

361. What about the fact that for six years BEFORE...

...the 2008 election festivities kicked off she played nicey-nice with the Rape-Publicans and the Bushbots? "Kick Republican Ass??" Don't make me laugh.

NGU.

[REDFISHBLUEFISH]

27. I am a 40 year old Male. Clinton is my choice!

Go Hillary!

[emilyg]

240. I love smart men.

[DinahMoeHum]

28. I don't own an iPod and while I'm not crazy about Hillary. . .

I'd rather eat broken glass than vote Republikkkan.

:kick:

[bluestateguy]

33. Hillary was a DLC go-alonger until it wasn't cool anymore

And the best example of that is the IWR.

[D-Sooner]

259. Right on the money, this here (nt)

[incapsulated]

35. Amen, Sistah. n/t

[jillan]

36. There was actually an article today about this very thing - how the 50+ crowd is not buying Obama's

rhetoric.

[REDFISHBLUEFISH]

49. 50 plus crowd remembers 8 years ago...Dubyas UNITER garbage!

This candidate for change is not new.

The DC outsider thing is not new.

The corruption in Chicago politics is nothing new!

Older voters see through the false polish and check his record.

HILLARY 08!

[aquart]

56. Obama's fans sound like "loyal Bushies" to me.

[demo dutch]

82. Yeah 8 yrs of inexperience in the WH. We don't need more inexperience

[REDFISHBLUEFISH]

214. Obama's slogan should be 4 more years! UNITED NOT DIVIDED!

Amazing no one sees it!

[GMFORD]

298. That's just silly.

Does Bush own the word 'united'? He stole it from us to use in his campaign and now we're taking it back.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

333. President Shit-for-Brains is surrounded by "experience."

It's not inexperience that has gotten us into this mess ... they know EXACTLY what they are doing. And the masses will never learn.

[krabigirl]

189. This thirtysomething remembers too, It sucked!

[XtraProudDem]

383. Huh?

"The corruption in Chicago politics is nothing new!"

I didn't realize everyone from Chicago was corrupt. Thanks for letting me know.

[pnwmom]

265. Some of us younger over-50's don't buy Obama's claim

that he's in a whole different generation than we are.

Much as he doesn't want to admit it, he happens to be a baby boomer, too. He's the age of my kid brother, by the way, and if my brother pretended to be in a different generation I'd feel like smacking him.

[rucognizant]

319. Hey, he isn't a Boomer!

He's severel years younger than my daughter, who In my calculations is NOT a Boomer. I measure by the indisputable cycles of nature & the planets; astrology; rather than the "old white man" based statistics! The Pluto cycle which is erratic and unpredictable, to a great extent,determines the attitudes of a group of people, born during that time. Being a plump, 68 year old techy/Gramme/artist, I have been observing this phenomenon for the last 35 years...............as a trained "LISTENER/ OBSERVER, rather than an aggressive DOER, CHANGE AGENT ( characteristic of the Pluto in Leo gen.) It is quite clear the difference. I was a retrograde Pluto in Cancer, ( Greatest Generation,) with classmates Pluto in Leo either side of me. I felt a greater affinity to the adults! ( And in my hometown, settled by Quakers, they were PROGRESSIVE LIBERALS) My son-in-law, is tag end of Pluto Leo, 1957. my daughter, 1958, is first wave Pluto in Virgo, health, exercise, obsessive! They are like people from 2 different species!
I have taught art to children privately ( MY rules not superintendant, school board, etc.) of & on, since 1957, I have witnessed the raw material, before it was finished being molded by public education, parental attitudes, etc. I have done a lot of workshops for the Pluto in Scorpio Gen. ( 19984-'96,7) In the last girl scouts workshop I had ONE,, the youngest, Pluto in Saggiterius.............. Totally different
from the older ones in personality, attitudes, etc. I realized that these Pluto in Scorpio kids would bring on a cultural revolution as sweeping as the Renaissance.!
These are Caroline Kennedy's kids: who pushed her out into the spotlight to make an endorsement of Obama. She, who has been determindly non political ALL her life...............And her Father who was my first & last triumphant vote, was really more about HOPE, & PROMISE, than substance. Sadly he was killed before building a real legacy. BUT his legacy, was to fuel those left behind to fight for change and a better country!
That feeling has dwindled of late, falling into a morass of cynicism, bitterness, misasumption judgementalness, and loss of direction, as a result of the success of the neo-cons, conservatives. WE NEED that element of hope! We NEED these young people! Maine is allowing 17 year olds to vote this year! If they're mature enough to go out on the water & haul lobsters; they're old enough to vote responsibly!
I myself still can't decide who will get my vote. Nor can my friend. That is the value of a caucus. work it out together! Most of us are for Kucinich, Edwards. ( ANd BTW send Dennis money to keep him in COngress, this is more important to our Democracy than whether CLinton or Obama wins! He is the one pushing for Impeachment of Cheney & Bush, which HAS to be done!)
Stop attacking each other.......either Clinton or Obama, is 100% better than Bush AND neither one of them is progressive enough.! Rome wasn't built in a day; and it wasn't destroyed in a day either. All is baby steps forward or BACKWARD, which way do you want to go?
Pluto has just moved into Capricorn; the planet that stimulates GOVERNMENT building, organizing. Pluto in Libra = partnership, togetherness, In Scorpio= deepened relating,secrecy, depth, secrets, ( didn't we accumulate a lot of those between 1984 & 1997?) Pluto in Saggitarius= religion! YES RELIGION!, LAW, foreign countries........ See how that works? It evolves, develops!

[spooky3]

368. Obama is a Boomer per most definitions, such as Wiki's

1946-1964 - and Obama was born well before the end of the era - he was born in 1961.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_boomer

[pnwmom]

371. Well, I still count using "old white man" years, as you say, which makes

Obama as much of a Boomer as I am.

He just plays a Generation-Xer on TV.

[beezlebum]

317. mebbe b/c

the 50+ crowd doesn't own ipods (j/k- i don't either) and rejects anything new including technology and thus rejecting the access to information and research regarding history, and is stuck on this seemingly crony-esque pattern (bush, clinton, bush, clinton?...jeb bush? chelsea clinton?)...ooooh snap. :P

i mean, i respect my elders. i help old ladies cross the street and carry their groceries. i listen to my grandparents' tales of farming from before sunrise until sundown, chewing the same piece of gum for weeks, eating biscuits smothered in coffee, and considering it a treat to have the coffee because there was nothing else to eat, going out in the snow to "potty," sleeping on the porch in sub-zero tempruatures. i respect my parents' generation, protesting vietnam, and embracing all (er, most) things hippy. i get the whole "older, wiser" thing, but this is plain insulting what's going on- discrediting *legal voters* because they aren't middle aged- seems to be a bit of a consensus here.

seriously though- what about hrc's rhetoric? i don't care for obama either, but he definitely beats hillary- and comparing her rhetoric to her action, and knowing that she is a warmonger, and looking at the previous clinton administration, NAFTA, sudan, welfare "reform"- they do say you get more conservative as you get older, so if those things are okay with you...

i'm under 30 and i'm not buying the hillary-hype. those of us whose minds haven't entered the forgetful phase of life where senility begins...yikes! better not go there! sorry, had to step up for the under 30 crew, you know how it is.

[Bluerthanblue]

39. so- what is it that you DO want?

you don't want hope- you don't want any posibility of co-operation among the political parties in the US-

You want to be angry, and you want to hold onto your anger and nurture it.

Is that what Hillary has to offer me?

If so, I say without hesitation or regret- NO THANK YOU.

What does Hillary have to offer me? Except the yin to *'s yang- and 8yrs of acrimony and mos?

You are so full of all the vague negatives that are so easily tossed at Obama- and so empty with any positive 'meat' on Hillary-
What makes her even remotely superior?
To see it through this shallow lens,
I'll take a love in over a hate fest anyday.

peace~

[Bluerthanblue]

212. no answers?-

guess I shouldn't have hoped for better.

Oh well- I tried. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

peace~

[Tarheel_Dem]

251. simple answer...from the sound of the OP is.....

old fat angry white women are drawn to other old fat angry white women? That may come off as offensive to some, but the OP was just as offensive to me. I can say that the OP, and the subsequent posts in support of it are why I hope these people get exactly what they don't want, and that is a President Obama.

And let me just remind the baby boomers in the room to be careful how you smugly discount the young. Afterall, it may not be very long before they'll be wiping the drool from your chin, and changing your Depends.

[marlakay]

40. Another plump boomer woman for Obama

I will admit my 20 something kids got me into thinking about him but I already knew it was anybody but Hillary because I don't trust her after what she did to Gore. I am a big Gore fan so it had nothing to do with age. I didn't go for Edwards because I didn't want Hillary and knew he didn't have enough votes same for the rest of them.

[Nedsdag]

42. Who says Hillary will "fight?'

She didn't fight for health care.

She didn't fight Bush on IWR.

If she couldn't fight for those things, who's to say she'll fight for anyone?

[JVS]

52. Well she did a hell of a job taking the "fight" to Iraqis!

:-(

[Tactical Progressive]

67. Hillary fought for national healthcare when nobody else would

She got pounded by major insurance company advertising, vicious Publicans and their mainstream media lapdogs.
And of course a Democrats everywhere too cowardly to stand up with her.

Nobody could have passed healthcare back then, but at least she tried. She had no power as First Lady but she still made a go at it. When she gets power, hopefully with the Democratic establishment behind her this time, we'll see how the story turns out.


Obama? Obama fights for Obama. That's all Obama cares about.

[Nedsdag]

84. Boy, have you drank the Hillary Kool-Aid.

Obama cares about Obama?

Well, you could say the same thing about your "queen." Her ego and her husband's ego may cost the Democrats the election.

As for "fighting for National healthcare," her plan was so convoluted that it made it easy for the Republicans and the insurance lobby to go after her. The Democrats were confused about what she was trying to achieve.

The "mandate" question will not bring the Democratic establishment together.

[Tactical Progressive]

129. Inotherwords you were wrong

with your brash and dishonest statement about Hillary and healthcare.

And for the record, you're an Obama supporter talking about ego and Kool-Aide? I've never seen a Democrat with the kind of ego that drives Obama. With nothing but some community service work and a short state legislature career he thinks he should be running the country by talking about hope and change. A person's head doesn't inflate much more than that.

And nobody's ever seen the kind of Kool-Aide consumption that the Obamaroid cult engages in.

Project much?

[Nedsdag]

396. So anyone who supports Obama is a Kool-Aid drinker.

Well, NEITHER of us should be talking since you don't think Hillary has done anything wrong.

Hillary doesn't have an ego? Give me a break!

[no name no slogan]

43. Wow. A middle-aged woman who tells young people to "fuck off".

[femrap]

95. A lieberman avatar????

And thinks his/her generation invented 'fuck off?' I think the younger generation needs to smoke more pot and get off liquor.

[no name no slogan]

111. uh, yeah...

FYI, I'm in my late 30s, right in the middle of GenX. I am also a teetotaler and don't touch drugs. And I never said my generation invented "fuck off". I just said it sounds real classy coming from somebody who's old enough to be my mother.

PS: Glad you like the Joe avatar. It's the 3rd in a series of famous Republicans. The first two were Nixon and Reagan.

[pnwmom]

266. If she's been on DU for any length of time, she's probably had young

people tell her that often enough.

[BooScout]

300. all the time.......

We old people really get on their nerves.:evilgrin:

[UpInArms]

44. I'm not so plump - but I would love to cast aside 7 pounds -

and I am still supporting Edwards.

Hillary does not speak to or for me.

Obama is full of soundbites.

I am adrift.

Where to go?

What to do?

(edited for mispelling casts as cats - and I have too many of those, too!)

[femrap]

98. Sometimes you have to hold your

nose and vote. At least I know HRC will restore the programs and $$$ for women and children...and get rid of the overseas gag rule.

Obama just votes 'present' for Choice.

And I want a FIGHTER. She'll FIGHT. Obama will be eaten alive by Big Biz.

[pnwmom]

267. Don't you wish Edwards

would have endorsed someone, and given reasons? I do.

[UpInArms]

356. - keeping one's powder dry

:D

his statement said that when he spoke with Hillary and Obama, each of them said that they would put the poverty issue into their platform.

So far, I haven't heard either of them say anything about it.

I would assume that when one of them does address the poverty issue, Edwards will let us know who and why and how it will work.

:hi:

[kcass1954]

345. Thank you! I'm a plump middle-aged woman, and I'm not sure where I'm going now either.

I was a Kucinich supporter until he bowed out. I had previously ignored everyone else, mostly because Dennis represented me on nearly every issue. As I began to look for another candidate, Edwards' message spoke to me. I'm sorry my support was so short-lived.

Clinton and Obama both have good points and bad points, but neither of them wows me.

In November, I'll vote for whoever is "it".

[poppysgal]

403. cats?

:hi: You don't either have to lose seven pounds. See you on Super Tuesday.

[mondo joe]

45. I'm a tall thin gay guy, with an iPod and an iPhone. And I'm with you. NT

[demo dutch]

We luv you!

[Kermitt Gribble]

47. Your last sentence says it all.

Great post!

[smalll]

48. 39-year old man here also ipod-free. No cellphone either, so you know I'm not an Obamatron -

I am Spartacus too!

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[eridani]

51. Plump middle-aged woman with an iPod so far not used due to lack of time

In a caucus state, I'm for the anti-money candidate "Uncommitted" for as long as I can carry it. Tending toward Obama when forced to jump one way or another only because he is bring new people into political activity--there is no substantive difference between the money candidates IMO.

[demo dutch]

57. There isn't, but I'll go for the woman with experience!

[Tactical Progressive]

53. I wish I could say you're insightful

but you're just speaking common sense.

It only sounds like insight on Democratic Underground.

[OKNancy]

109. LOL!! n/t

[robbedvoter]

280. best post today.

[Robb]

54. "...then they can fuck off in tandem"

:rofl:

I can't say I agree with you, but damn. I respect you. :thumbsup:

[tammywammy]

59. I'm a

27 year old, home owner, college educated, single woman that doesn't own an iPod and I support Obama.

[smalll]

88. Congratulations. There aren't many 27-year old single homeowners, especially these days -

you into lattes by any chance? :hide:

[tammywammy]

125. LOL, not really

Though I did work in the coffee business for 4 years.

I'm very lucky and I know that. I don't make much money, a whopping $26,000 last year. This house was a foreclosure that sat on the market for 6 months and needs some updating.

I also have no credit card debt, I just have the mortgage and my car payment. I got through school with the Pell Grant.

[Big Blue Marble]

61. I bet I am more middle aged than you and

I own 3 ipods and I passionately support Obama. We have a choice to keep seeing one-half of this country as our
enemy or we can start to build bridges to start solving the problems that face all of us in this country.

Hate never gets us anywhere. We hate them and they hate more. No we hate them more. And where do we end up?

The cycle of hate takes us down. Expends our life energy. Leaves us with nothing of value.

I know that you are angry. You are feeling the frustration that we have all felt particularly in the last seven years.

I ask that you consider whomever you choose for a candidate, that you focus on healing our broken nation.
You and I have lived long enough to know that we have a truly broken nation. The way back is not through
hate. The way back is not through fear. The way back is to trust each other again. To know whether we are right
or left, that we share the common goals of security, prosperity, and democracy.

We know that those on the right have been manipulated to vote against their own interests. We know that they
have driven by fear and hate. We can ask better of them; we can ask better of ourselves. And when we do,
I am confident that many, of course not all, but enough will join us.

And we will start to make America great again.







P.S. The Ipod thing....they really are a lot of fun.

[BooScout]

83. Trust each other???

You have got to be kidding me. Seriesly.

I don't trust any politician in any party in any country and anyone who does is naive.

[Big Blue Marble]

103. Did you even read what I wrote?

I am not talking about the politicians. I am talking about our neighbors. The ones who have been mislead
by those politicians whom you and I do not trust.

The only way we can begin again is to invite these people home, all the Reagan Democrats and the
Independents fell for the Bush crap as well as the moderate Republicans that feel as lost as we do.

I assure you they are not coming home to hear hate or hear how dumb they were. They
will respond to the clarion call of hope. In fact, they are responding to it.

Those you do not trust are Americans, too. If we do not start to trust that we share in common with these
folks, we will all join in the unity of destruction.


Get that Ipod. It really will help you lighten up a little.

[BlackVelvet04]

161. I was right.....

between hope and change comes "there's no place like home, there's no place like home."

[Big Blue Marble]

228. And what the hell is the matter with home?

America is my home. And I want it to be the best that it can be. I do not want to settle for just OK.

You can do settle for going back to the past and what will you have to give your children and grandchildren for the future.

Obama is going to make this a better place for you and me. How many times these past years,

I have considered leaving my home, and leaving my country because I had no hope for my country

or did I see that I had a reason to stay.

Now I have hope that I can call this place my home. I can stand and be proud that my country is ready

to nominate a person of character than wants to guide us to country that feels like home again.

[sherrys]

62. I support Hillary

I have seen enough of the lets reach across the aisle crap. The Democrats keep reaching and reaching until they just cave in and vote with the Republicans.

[robbedvoter]

64. I am with ya - and can smell BS a mile away

Especially when I see who else is shoveling next to him.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=4263047


and
"Maybe they've seen the light" famous last words of Deanies in 2004http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4346496&mesg_id=4346496

[Bongo Prophet]

257. I read your thread in the link - you were SHOVELING the bullshit in that thread.

You had several facts wrong, and were FISHING for answers that you wanted. You admit as much in the thread.
Pitiful and hypocritical.

I am not speaking as an advocate, as I am keeping as much objectivity as possible - am an analyst/strategist, both personally and professionally.
You are too intelligent to stoop as low as you have, but I guess that is a part of GD-Pisspool culture.

[NJObamaWoman]

65. Please I'm tired of this crap. Screw your perception of the real world everyday

There are many High School and College kids that face real world issues. What about the young high school student who is pregnant and worried about taking care of her kid without an education because she dropped out or trying to go to school while being a single parent. What about the young african american woman who contracts HIV and is fearful of her life and having any type of health care to take care of her. Lets talk about college kids who face high college tuition and have to work 2-3 jobs just to get a higher education. At the same time some kids graduate college already in debt with atleast $100,000 loan out. This means that student will have to find a decent job and basically be paying off this loan for most of their lives. What about the fact that so many young people graduate from college with so many degrees and still can't find jobs. The cost of living is so high now a days that people have to stay home with their parents or get roommates.


Fine you done care about others. Well some of us do. I care about getting along with others who got us into this problem. I have friends who voted for Bush and the war. Friends who fight or have family members in Iraq and while I'm against the war I don't think my friends are evil. They are Americans just like me and have a right to their opinions. I believe in compromise to find a solution that bests helps the entire country. I'm sick and tired of hearing that it must be the Democrat way or nothing else. America is about free thinkers and the acceptance of all free thinkers.

Please just because we are young doesn't mean we don't experience real adult issues. We are Americans too no matter what age. Many of us young folks keep it real but we also like to be optimistic. Bad things happen to people who continue to dwell on the negative. Therefore I believe in HOPE and CHANGE. If people didn't believe in it than Martin Luther King Jr and so many others wouldn't have fought for our civil rights. Hell the womans movement wouldn't have happen their for Mrs. Clinton wouldn't be able to run for president to this day. Just think about that. HOPE and CHANGE is POSSIBLE!!!!

[demo dutch]

74. Yes but experience is more important in todays world!

[NJObamaWoman]

86. The hell it is. Neither youth or experience out weigh the other.

If Experience matters than all young people need to stay home. Don't bother with going to school or getting a job because once you have the education to look for a job, experience is what really matters therefore theres no chance of getting a job if someone else is applying for the same job and has more experience than you.


Experience can help but its not the be all and end all of everything. Motivation, drive, and passion can equal experience. I'm living proof of that to this day in terms of my job.

[demo dutch]

99. How can you equate a "job" with what's required to run this country!

Sorry, to become President of the United States, Best qualification win! period

[NJObamaWoman]

128. Yes because George Washington the founder had so much experience.

Experience is overrated. A candidate can get that experience by being president. Having Experience isn't what makes someone the most qualified.

[BooScout]

151. So would you want a surgeon....

Fresh out of medical school to operate on your brain...........or would you prefer to have the Neurosurgeon who has been operating for years to operate. Your choice.

[NJObamaWoman]

168. I don't care who does it. The only way to get that experience you so value

is for the novice to be pushed out there to do it. If he was taught correctly and certified by the American government than I'm fine no matter what. If something happens its Gods will.

[D-Sooner]

270. I see

I guess you'll be endorsing McCain then.

[mondo joe]

156. Silly. Washington had the most experience as commander in chief - one of the

principle functions of the job. Who do you think was MORE experienced?

:lol:

[mondo joe]

104. Of course experience matters. Ever hear of "entry level jobs"?

Between two similarly qualified applicant experience will certainly matter.

[NJObamaWoman]

124. Not always. I have a job in which I was competing with people who

had years of experience. My job is not entry level to say the least either. I interned at this place for 3 months doing something totally different than what I was hired for. When they were hiring all the so called experience people had sucky personalities and didn't have any vision so guess what... I was hired because I brought about CHANGE and HOPE. I had no experience whatsoever and was hired instantly. Now I run my own department. I'm making double what was offered originally and I started only a year ago.

Experience is over fucking rated.

[mondo joe]

127. How wonderful for you! And I'm the Pope.

:hi:

[NJObamaWoman]

131. Well I pope. I don't care if you believe me or not. I don't BS here.

If you read any of my posts you know that I speak from my heart and what I go through day by day. Again I believe experience is a crappy argument. Being a leader takes more than just experience. There are many other components that makes a great leader.

[Auntie Bush]

221. What you been smokin?

"If Experience matters than all young people need to stay home. Don't bother with going to school or getting a job because once you have the education to look for a job, experience is what really matters therefore theres no chance of getting a job if someone else is applying for the same job and has more experience than you."

[Recursion]

243. Experience?

Obama has twice as much time in elected office as Clinton does. And he hasn't spent that time being a triangulating DLC-er

[BooScout]

130. And you think Obama will change all that?

Hillary Clinton has done more for any child than Obama has ever thought about doing.

I care about others and so does Hillary. .........but the reality is that Obama is not going to keep some students from being in debt in order to get a college education......and guess what? A lot of the rest of the world stays home and lives with their parents for a lot longer than those poor college students in the US.......and the roommate dilema? Good grief. Seriesly?!

Let me also inform you that many of us who support Clinton cared about getting along with others who got us into this problem..........we did reach out and ya know what? They fucking slapped us in the face, threw us down and then kicked the shit out of us. We have been there before. We learned the hard way there is no compromise when it comes to the Republican Party. NONE.

HOPE and CHANGE are simply campaign slogans. They don't mean a damned thing.

And about the Womens'Movement thing? If the politicians in this country would have gotten off their fat lazy asses and ratifed REAL CHANGE......aka the Equal Rights Ammendment then Hillary Clinton or some other qualified woman would have been in the WH a long time ago.

I 'hope' you understand...........other's have come before you trying to 'change' the world and it bit a lot of us in the ass. To get real 'change' you have to fight your ass off not just make pretty speeches.

[Recursion]

244. You seriously think the failure of the ERA is why no woman has yet been elected President?

That just seems like an odd claim to me.

[BooScout]

245. Yes quite possibly.....

If you think it's failure to be ratified hasn't held women back in America then you are kidding yourself. It's not an odd claim at all. It's quite a valid one.

[Recursion]

246. "Equality of rights under the law...

shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex."

A) It's not clear to me that this adds anything to the 14th Amendment, though I'd certainly vote for it if it came up

B) I still find it difficult to take seriously your claim that if this amendment had passed, a woman would have been elected President by now. Who do you think it would have been?

C) It's hard to point out any tangible effect the ERA would have, though I guess it might have kept the VAWA from being overturned. Is Congress chomping at the bit to pass laws preventing sexual discrimination, but just can't because they don't have the Constitutional power to?

We're a majority-female country, and American women are significantly better educated (in general) than American men. At "the top" (politics, boardrooms, etc.) women aren't nearly represented as well as men are, but in the middle and the bottom (you know, where 99% of us are), women are doing better than men are.

[spoony]

305. Really nice post n/t

[Little Star]

69. Damn Straight!

[globalvillage]

70. I own an ipod. It's not charged

but I am.

Forty eight.
Average weight.
Fired up and ready to go!

GObama!

[bigwillq]

119. Kerry Vision

Did you vote for Kerry in 2004?

[globalvillage]

160. I did.

You?

[bigwillq]

169. OMG! You voted for that war monger Kerry??!?!?

Wow. Interesting.


I voted for Kerry too.
Thanks for your honest reply.

[globalvillage]

171. I'm sorry.

I don't understand your post. Why wouldn't I give you an honest reply? I'm a proud Kerry supporter.

[bigwillq]

178. Because a few

have dodged the question.

[globalvillage]

183. OK.

I wouldn't do that.

[SammyWinstonJack]

73. If you are looking for some one too kick republican ass you should have gone with Edwards.

:shrug: Having said that, if Edwards isn't on my state's primary ballot, I will be voting for Hillary. And not because I want to, I don't. It will be a vote against Obama, not a vote for Hillary.. My reason, he lied about not running in '08 and I believe that hampered Edwards' campaign and for that I am pissed. He could have waited, but his ego got the better of him. And if I sound bitter, you bet I am. I don't like being manipulated by TPTB or the Democratic top Leadership.

[demo dutch]

76. I really think that's true, it hampered Edwards, and you have to blame the media too!

[KarenS]

75. Amen, Sister!! n/t

[girl gone mad]

85. Hmm..

"I fucking want a candidate who will fucking kick some Republican Ass as soon as she is nominated. I want someone who can hold her own when the big boys start lobbing the shitballs in her direction."

Where the hell has this Clinton been for the past 8 years?

Oh, that's right. She's been enabling Republicans and the Bush administration at nearly every turn.

[demo dutch]

92. She's the only one who can slap them around! Proof is in the pudding

[TomInTib]

89. Middle-aged white guy, great shape, no i-pod, no preference....

But I would take it to the streets to get the Republicans the fuck outta town.

[Shine]

90. Great rant, BooScout!

:applause: :yourock: :woohoo:

Sadly, I think it was "down and dirty politics" which got my man Edwards out of the race. Don't know what the hell happened there, but something fishy definitely did.

I could live with either Hillary or Barack as President. As long as we get the Repukes out, I'm happy.

[Connie_Corleone]

94. I'm a 36-year old plump woman who owns an ipod and a WII.

I'm just glad I don't have your mindset. I'd rather have hope and change than be a miserable, old windbag who has nothing but contempt for the younger generations.


OBAMA '08!!

[NJObamaWoman]

96. Thanks :)

I have tons of respect for my elders. :toast:

[demo dutch]

101. Sorry, to become President of the United States, Best qualification win! period Last time I

checked noone got a job based on "Hope" and Change" Nothing to do with contempt for the young.

[no name no slogan]

121. If it were based on qualifications, then Biden or Kucinich would be the nominee

Each one has more electoral experience than Clinton or Obama.

[femrap]

102. Change and hope are going

to put the Corporations in their place....they will eat Obama for breakfast.

'miserable, old windbag....' See why we have contempt for you. Just use brains for insults instead of critical thinking.

Techno-slave....I bet you're in debt, too

[Straight Shooter]

100. I'm a middle-aged woman with an athletic build, and I own a Creative Zen V

F*ck iPod. Rock on Creative :)

And I don't want a candidate with a glass jaw, I want a candidate with an iron fist. Go Hillary!

[REDFISHBLUEFISH]

120. Hillary 08, CREATIVE ROCKS..especially X-FI sound cards!

[Straight Shooter]

132. Sound Blaster X-Fi Xtreme Audio in my sweet little computer

I love it, especially that X-Fi Crystalizer, EAX effects, and et cet-er-a.

Creative rules!

[REDFISHBLUEFISH]

150. Oh yeah get the 7.1 speaker set up you hear things ya never did before!

[yardwork]

392. Tell it, sister!

[zulchzulu]

105. You sound kinda bitter. We can pitch in and buy you a Zune if ya want

It also sounds like you'd rather play political theater and get nothing done. Do you think ANY legislation can get passed without at least some bi-partisan support?

You don't have to answer.

[mondo joe]

110. Good choice - Zune is the 0bama player. Lots of talk.

Not much performance.

[LizW]

222. Yeah, bitter. Whenever a woman isn't sweet and pleasant

it must be because she's bitter.

Don't you want to ask us if we're on our periods?

[spoony]

307. Um, no

That OP was bitter as a gallon of almond extract, regardless of gender.

[Ellen Forradalom]

309. For damned good reason.

The GOP has trashed her country beyond recognition.

[LizW]

325. Yes. "Bitter" is dismissive.

What is wrong with being angry? What is wrong with wanting to scream and throw all the dishes on the floor?

Why aren't more people angry?

[Ellen Forradalom]

364. Exactly.

"Bitter" has the connotation of holding onto anger over something trivial. This ain't trivial. Taking a chill pill and getting laid is not going to make it go away.

[OKNancy]

106. WOO HOO

It's our turn.
I mean the Democrats. No bipartisanship!

[KoKo]

107. A speaker of truth....Great Post...and observations! K&R!

[FunkyLeprechaun]

108. I don't own an Ipod

But I'm an Obama supporter. I do not get the old-fuddy duddy thing when I truly fit the old-fuddy-duddy meme... I'm deaf. I was born in the early eighties. (1981) My oldest grandfather was born in 1893.

I might try to bet that this is one of the silliest OPs I've read.

[boomboom]

114. I'm a plump middle aged woman also

Don't own an ipod, but i do have a blackberry. does that count? I'm Obama. all the way!

[nonconformist]

115. Well I'm a relatively thin, 34 year old woman who doesn't own an ipod...

And I agree with you!

"change" is not just a fucking MANTRA.

I'm an Edwards supporter, but I choose Hillary over Obama by a mile.

[Cameron27]

117. K&R

:toast:

[AlCzervik]

118. don't hate on the ipods, i bet the Clinton's have many.

thanks to those ipods, imacs and iphones i am able to donate more to everyone.

[Bonobo]

122. What a sad post.

[BooScout]

140. Oh I dunno.......

I thought it sort of kicked ass for a fat old lady.

Bless you heart.:*

[Bonobo]

152. Sad that you have such a low opinion of yourself.

I hope you can start to feel better soon.

It's never too late to make changes to your life.

:hug:

[smalll]

203. "It's never too late to make changes to your life" ????

Yeah! That's the problem with the OP! She needs to get active and make some changes -- stop being so old, for one thing; it's totally inexcusable. That's the problem with us Hillaryites -- we're too lazy to do what it takes to be 20-year old kids.


:sarcasm:

[Bonobo]

216. I started karate at 38 and quit smoking at 39. Stop projecting.

[BooScout]

242. That's ok honey he thinks he knows me.....

He takes karate for his changes. I upped sticks at 45 and moved across the Atlantic for a change.

Hmmmmm.........karate or moving 4000+ miles and to a new continient? But since I'm plump, middle aged (I'm a year older than Obama btw)......and don't own an ipod I don't know change. Obamabites have ownership rights to it don't ya know?:shrug:

[kywildcat]

276. BooScout-may I ask what prompted the move?

was it career positioning? marriage? Thrill seeking? Not bashing-just curious.

[BooScout]

282. A little bit of everything......

I finished with my company when it was sold.....after 23 years in Corporate America. I got a nice redundancy, I was married to a Brit and he was not happy in the States (especially with Bush in the WH and the religious right in your face 24/7) and I love it here. Thanks for asking.

[Darth_Kitten]

329. I would love to do that......

gutsy move.

[BooScout]

347. Thanks........

It was a little scary at the time........but I adjusted easily and enjoy doing things that are a bit different than the norm.

[Big Blue Marble]

158. I think you are an angry old lady.

And that is very sad. You are at risk for missing the future.

[smalll]

227. "You are at risk for missing the future."?????

Are the Obamatrons planning on killing all the old folks? Or at least all the old folks who refuse to vote for Obama? Change or die, is that what you're saying? :wtf:

[Darth_Kitten]

331. Then you are an arrogant, obviously immature and self-righteous kid?

Maybe learn to listen to people who don't live in their parents' basements.

[mondo joe]

163. Does it make you sad that people know enough to lock their doors?

Responding to reality isn't sad.

[Bonobo]

165. I don't lock my doors. But yes, it is sad that many have to.

[mondo joe]

166. But is it sad that they recognize the need to do so?

[Bonobo]

170. No. It is sad that the OP had to offend people with her post though while at the same time

showing what a poor and low self-image she has.

[mondo joe]

173. Ah, back to your usual tactic of insulting other posters. Very well. Night night. NT

[Bonobo]

175. Well she called herself fat and old and implied iPod owners are vacuous. Bye!

[BooScout]

182. What..........now Obama fans don't like plump people?

Or get poetic license?

So ya'll don't like old people.
Fat people (I like to call it plump most of the time)
Technically challenged or technically turned off people.

Wow, that's certainly inclusive of you and a really good way to unite everyone.:eyes:

It gives me hope for the change you promise to bring us all.:banghead:

[Bonobo]

197. Yes, you really have me nailed. You're so smart!

[BooScout]

177. And how exactly is my self-image low?

Tell me really.

[Bonobo]

180. Cynical, jaded, plump and middle-aged are not usually what people with healthy self-esteem say.

Also, your anger against these Strawman Obama supporters who you seem to imagine as young, high-tech, vacuous, cultists doesn't do much to persuade me about your love for your fellow man, either.

You often see that in people with low self-esteem.

You should try to find a practice you enjoy. It would do wonders for your attitude.

[mondo joe]

181. Depends on what you think of those words.

People who cling to fantasy might have a problem with them.

[BooScout]

184. Pardon me for not being positive & perky enough for you...

I lost my happy pills about 7 years ago.

[Bonobo]

192. You went looking for trouble with your OP. You essentially called Obama supprters kool-aid drinkers.

nt

[Madam Mossfern]

137. 59+ lost my ipod somewhere

in excellent shape, alert, active, educated, idealistic, involved, mother of four incredible grown and almost grown kids, and I now support Obama.
Now go put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[Danger Mouse]

139. Kick republican ass? And you call yourself cynical.

Like I've said before, we want to beat the Republicans, but in the end, we'll have to work with them.
Bipartisanship is a good thing.
Being partisan all the time turns you into an asshole like Bush was.

[desertflamingo]

208. bipartisanship...

yeah. tell that to the repukes who REFUSE to cross the aisle to compromise with the dems.

[BooScout]

241. What planet have you been living on?

There is no bipartisianship in America anymore.......at least as far as the Republicans are concerned.

For the past 8 years we have lived with Republicans refusing to compromise.
And for the 8 years before that they rabidly attacked the Democrats at every single turn and they refused to compromise.
And for 12 years before that they refused to compromise.
There is no bipartisianship as far as the Republican Party is concerned, unless they can use it to stab you in the back and destroy everything in their path.

[Name removed]

254. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Raine]

141. I'm thin, middle-aged, own an IPod that I don't use and I'm for Obama

I don't know if it's the thin or the IPod that makes the difference, hmmmmm. :shrug:

[GoldieAZ49]

142. Then you go with the anger, bitter, nothing good in America, divisive, fuck you vote

I will go with the change, hope, unity, America is greater than its politicians vote


After all, it is a free country...

[LVjinx]

149. Unity

And what has Obama had to say about Democrats that have worked with Republicans? What has Obama said about Republicans? Unity should be more than just a word. At least Bush, when he blabbed about being a Uniter, PRETENDED to want to work with Democrats. Obama isn't even doing that. He's just throwing words out and people are nodding their heads like zombies!

[GoldieAZ49]

172. He says a lot about it, in fact

it is Chapter 1 in his book, an excellent read

He talks about how the political climate changed and how the all or nothing, for or against came about. Reagan, Rove, Bush

He also talks about those that don't practice divisive politics, they want to work together.

That all Americans want the same things, security, peace, education, health care

He talks about how continuing the us against them mentality only helps the republicans

good read, a stump speech or a debate does not give you the insight of how he approaches unity

It is our choice, do we want to continue to be stagnant as a nation, or grow

I have had enough of the politics of the past, I want a leader that sees the big picture, the power of America united, not a candidate that just wants to continue the fight of the 90's.

[Zorra]

145. I don't even care what an ipod is, but I do know that appeasing republicans

is not in any way, shape, or form, in the best interests of the people of the United States.

[BlackVelvet04]

146. I'm a middle aged woman as well....

if I live to be 100, but I remember the fight for women's rights, abortion rights, birth control rights, etc. and it wasn't brought about by hope and fairy dust. It was damn hard work and here we have been having to fight all over again because people feel into a personality cult with a uniter.

[loveangelc]

148. You need to get over your anger issues.

Not all Republicans are terrible people, theyre people like you and me. I hope you dont live your life hating people because of what political party they belong to because thats very sad.

[krabigirl]

191. I think we all should be MUCH angrier after what's happened here since 2000!

Not all Republicans are "terrible," but what this administration has done to this country, and our reputation in the world, is horrendous, and I don't want to unite with anyone who supports this crap.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

153. Shorter BooScout:

"How DARE those youngsters like another candidate! Who allowed them to vote! Against my candidate no less! Of all the disrespectful NERVE!"

:eyes:

[AlCzervik]

154. Gettoffmahlawn!

:o

[MichiganVote]

155. Doesn't anybody care about this war in Iraq anymore?

Let's remember what is on the other side of the fence here. John McCain talking about war for 100 years??? Are you freakin' kidding me??

Please, think. We have men and women to bring home. They are fathers, mothers, sisters and brothers. Its time. Its BEEN time.

If anyone can show me a serious effort on the part of the republicans to stop the bullshit and quit funding the impossible dream, bipartisanship is a reality. Until then, forget it.

I don't know of a single candidate who has ever spoken of anything but change and hope when running for office in my lifetime. They all do it. Its a strategy. That's not cynicism, that's the truth.

We have two better than average candidates before us whose programs and plans are very similar. Yes, Clinton has baggage. Fine. So what? Who among the esteemed DU'rs doesn't? But for heaven's sake the hypocrisy surrounding this candidate by both republicans and now democrats is ridiculous. There are a score of people who voted for Kerry on this very board and he voted for the IWR package too. It was all about change and hope for retribution during that campaign too. Clinton needs some of the Richardson lack of drama and some of Biden's pragmatism.

I like the idea of Obama if not the actual persona. He is intelligent, he is successful, he has less baggage. So what? Think that will stop the detractors from making something up? Hardly. Obama needs some of the Edwards drive and he needs some of the Clinton experience. He just plain flat ass does.

Let's all just chill and focus more on what we want, less on who will get it for us.

[McCamy Taylor]

157. OMG! I forgot I wrote this! j/k/ Described me to a T. I want someone who can fight, too.

McCain is not going down easy. He will pretend to be a "straight talker" and a "truth teller" and "honest". But behind him, he will have the entire MSM--including MSNBC minus KO doing propaganda for him 24-7, and also the Pentagon telling whoppers like The Surge worked and McCain has a secret plan to end the war with honor that the generals say WILL WORK .

In a situation like that, the Democratic nominee will need to fight or else remain above the fray but designate someone to do the fighting for him or her.

Personally, I think that Obama can be the nominee and he can remain above the fray the way that John McCain will pretend to, as long as he has plenty of support from people who are out there reminding the public of every issue on which John McCain has waffled . I do agree that the Clintons have more experience dealing with negative campaigns and a proven track record of fighting back. I would be happier with Obama if he was a proven fighter. Beating Keyes just isn't that much of a contest.

Hillary/Obama or Obama/Hillary would scare the life out of the GOP, because it would unite the Democrats and combine the best of our Party.

[JimGinPA]

159. Any Slender, Younger Girls Here?

Maybe one who owns a liquor store?:toast:

[Name removed]

162. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cooolandrew]

164. To become as dirty as they are is to lose everything.

[Auntie Bush]

176. I'm a little old woan who doesn't own an ipod ...and I agree with every thing you say.

[burythehatchet]

179. Hilarious post. Thanks.

[krabigirl]

185. Yes! Thank you from this thirtysomething, average-weight woman who loves her iPod. :)

I'm uncomitted, as I already voted Edwards, but I totally agree with you about wanting to kick Republican arse!

[riverwalker]

186. I'm a hot flashed feminist

myself. No Ipod either. But I have an old computer, and I don't want a president who is so fucking ignorant she couldn't have learned what the rest of did about W's war, or so she claims. She knew damn well there were no WMD's. That didn't matter to ol' Hill. All that mattered was running for president. We have set the bar so frickin' low it's buried in the sand. "Hold her own"? Really? I mean really? Could she really hold her own without Bill standing behind her? Since when? This so called "toughness" of Hillary is something I have yet to see. Sure she has a smart assed mouth, so does Micheal Savage, it don't make ya president material. Wisdom, and character do. She is soft, weak and pampered. Everything has been handed to her since she met Bill, which is most of her life. The one issue that really mattered, of life and death for thousands, she caved in pretty damn quick. Yeah, I would love a woman president. I remember when Mondale picked Geraldine Ferraro, how revolutionary it was back in '84. But Hillary would not be the first woman president. She would be the "first woman who was married to a president and was handed the presidency". No thanks.
I'm teaching my grand-daughters how to read a compass and blaze their own trails, carry their own packs.
Obama is the future. He is not the tidal wave, sweeping us off the shore. WE are the wave, and it is US sweeping HIM up off the beach and carrying him to where we need him. You don't get it. It's not about him, it's about us.

[Big Blue Marble]

233. Wow riverwalker, you just said it all.

I am of your generation of hard-fought feminism. This exactly how I feel about HRC. I have said all that you have said. Thank you for saying it so well

You also capture with brilliance what Obama is about:

Obama is the future. He is not the tidal wave, sweeping us off the shore. WE are the wave, and it is US sweeping HIM up off the beach and carrying him to where we need him. You don't get it. It's not about him, it's about us.

That is pure poetry.

[CoffeeCat]

187. You sound exactly like the Hillary Clinton...

...precinct captain in my precinct. She stood on a chair--all bitter and indigant, when it was
time for the precinct captains to give a speech about their candidate. She accused the Edwards
and Obama supporters of liking these candidates, "...just because you think they're good looking."

Your bitterness, over-simplified opinions and total mis characterization of Obama supporters is telling.

This....from a fit and trim, joyful middle-aged woman who listened to her iPod while jogging 3 miles today!

:)

[krabigirl]

193. You can be angry without being bitter.

[CoffeeCat]

195. Anger is healthy...

However, the "fuck you!" rhetoric is a bit over the top, don't you think?

This person paints quite an unflattering picture of herself. I find
it pretty revolting that anyone would even present themselves in such
a classless, tacky manner, and expect anyone to take her seriously or
respect her opinion.

[BooScout]

196. Oh excuse me......

For not being ladylike and keeping my mouth shut.

Perhaps if I were a man I could say 'fuck you' and it would be acceptable?

BTW, I don't give a rat's ass about your respect. I had a good rant and it felt damned good. :rant:

[CoffeeCat]

200. Hey, I'm the last person...

...who keeps her mouth shut.

I was just commenting on the picture you paint of yourself.

It ain't all that pretty.

Your rant is really misguided, and based on a boatload of disortions.

Perhaps, if you sat down and read Obama's plan for America---you might not
be so angry.

It's one thing to be angry and seeking justice. It's another to run
around half cocked and swearing like a longshore man over a massive,
jumbled series of distortions and half truths.

Just my opinion...

[desertflamingo]

205. what planet have you been on the last 8 years? just sayin...

EDWARDIAN

[CoffeeCat]

211. I don't believe...

...the Edwardians appreciated rants based on ill-informed, baseless bullshit.

That better?

[CoffeeCat]

201. dup (nt)

[AGirl]

190. good post.

[sfam]

198. Suck it up and get an Ipod...NOW!!!

It's mandatory.

[ProSense]

202. Great slogan: plump, pissed off, f*** hope and technology, vote Hillary!

I like it!

Not as catchy as: Yes. We. Can.

It doesn't roll of the tongue like: Pass It On: Right on Day One.


But for Hillary, it's perfect!

[Exultant Democracy]

286. Maybe Celine Dion will put it to words.

[thoughtcrime1984]

378. Plump and Pissed, No We Can't

You deal with it, ma'am. Some of us are going to Hope for Change that we can believe in! ;)

[desertflamingo]

204. hey boo...

i'm a 51 year old woman with a few extra pounds with an ipod and a baaaaaaaaaad attitude. i'm STILL voting for edwards. can't stand obamarama and hillary... i'm sorry, i can't do it. i'd love to support a woman but not hillary. i used to get dewy-eyed whenever she spoke hoping she would someday run, but this war... bush... immigration... rupert murdoch (the devil incarnate)... i cannot vote for her for those reasons and about a hundred more. so i'm stickin' with john edwards. he's the only candidate who spoke for me and unless and until he says "i have DROPPED OUT" i'll consider his campaign suspension just that. in the meantime, obama does not give me chills - he gives me gas. i just don't get what people see in him. when i look at him speak and then watch his body language he just comes off as... well, not a good guy. anyway, boo - LOVE your rant. i totally agree. FUCK getting along with the FUCKING republican ASSHOLES. i'm sick of the dems playing nice. i want a prez who's going to kick ass and take names.

EDWARDIAN PARTY

[Old and In the Way]

207. 50+ Male Shuffle owner who supported Edwards.

Like them both. They both have some flaws and some great attributes. Both are totally capable to be POTUS. Unfortunately, only one can. So I will happily support whichever one wins the collective endorsement of voting Democrats.

And I cannot wait to get primary season over, so we can focus on the primary objective: kicking ass in November.

[Myrina]

209. I'm also a plump middle aged woman w/o an Ipod ...

... and i can't stand either of the "front runners" that we've been force fed this election cycle.

This system needs an enema.

[Aussie leftie]

210. The last presidential candidate who I remember offered "hope and change"

was St John Kennedy. I can only remember two positive things that happened because of his presidency. 1) He beat Richard Nixon. 2) He started the ball rolling (thanks to Martin Luther King) to end racial discrimination.

"Bay of Pigs" fiasco and US involvement in Vietnam were just two of the bad things that happened during his reign.

If Obama likens himself to JFK, I would like to ask him why. Maybe his wife just might have a hankering for redecorating the White House.

I truly believe that in Hillary Clinton, you now have the most reliable candidate for president since her husband stood. She is a very clever person who has the experience in politics and diplomacy.

Please dont treat this as a popularity or charisma contest. Vote for the person with the substance.

[Raejeanowl]

213. Rock On, Sister

I know exactly of whence you speak. Cult adherence to fantastical optimism is a great preparation for disillusionment.

[kid a]

217. I fucking want a candidate who will fucking kick some Republican Ass as soon as she is nominated.

hillary's gonna "fucking kick some Republican Ass as soon as she is nominated."?????????????

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[Neshanic]

219. Agree. The time for hand holding talk with republicans is over.

[AZBlue]

224. I'm a plump, middle aged woman who doesn't own an ipod and I support OBAMA.

Because I don't want more of the same and because I haven't swallowed the Clinton talking-points without examining the truth. Because I don't support GOP-based rhetoric.

As you say, you are cynical and angry. I'm not. Because cynicism and anger will always block any sort of change, no matter what you are trying to achieve. Your anger will get in your own way every time. I know there's a way out of the hole that the country is in and I will steadfastly fight for it.

I've researched both Obama and Clinton and I've listened to what they have to say. And, I can see a big difference. Obama is indeed for change and it's illustrated clearly in so many things he has said - your indignation is clogging your hearing. And, you do want more of the same that we've had for 8 years: "I fucking want a candidate who will fucking kick some Republican Ass" - that's just the same exact rhetoric as the GOP, with only one word changed. And it will keep this country on the downward spiral that has started.

(BTW, if you think Clinton of all candidates will go after the GOP, you are sorely mistaken. She's more supportive of working with the GOP than any other candidate. I respectfully recommend that you research the candidates before mis-posting again.)

[ErnestoG]

238. Oh you...you....HATER!

;)

[Rene]

226. Remember folks. Bush said he was a washington outsider and HE

would bhange D.C. Look at the horror we got. Look what his inexperience and dependence on sleazeballs (not unlike Resko) have wraught.

[Lifelong Protester]

229. And he sure did 'bhange' Washington...

Just kidding, it was too good of a typo to let slide!

[AZBlue]

350. How can you tell when Bush is lying?

His lips are moving.

[Lifelong Protester]

230. And damn, now we got to start declaring our weight and

'electronics' status to get involved? That damn Diebold!!!

[Tresalisa]

231. Well said!

You get a :woohoo:

I find political stereotypes funny, such as "soccer moms", "values voters", and such, which in my opinion really don't mean anything and are just useless labels.

(I'm a plump, middle-aged woman who also does not own an i-pod, and wouldn't know how to work it if I did - :D)

[alcibiades_mystery]

232. You kids get off my lawn!

:eyes:

[ErnestoG]

234. I'm a skinny, pastey ass white guy who thinks you're full of shit.

Calling the dire need to take our nation into another direction a "love in" is the epitome of smug, mocking marginalization. I really, really hope you stay home from the vote in 2008.

[f the letter]

236. For someone wanting foreign policy for adults

and other issues, you bring remarkably few to your post.

i am emphatically not a supporter of Clinton or Obama, but i'm looking for some sort of content in your post.. i don't really think that Clinton will get us any farther in the areas you bring up either.

This is certainly real world politics and not high school or college, meaning that we as adults should acknowledge that Clinton is one of those 'assholes that got America into this mess in the first place.' The attitude doesn't make you old, but does make you jaded without being jaded about all the right things.

The deeply jaded among us are not voting for Clinton.

[krkaufman]

237. Absence of an iPod is not what defines you, certainly.

But it may be an unrealistic expectation of how may people in the country, not just within the Democratic Party, are on-board with you.

I don't think anyone expects any of the 25%ers to work together with anyone outside their exclusive club of faux piety and genuine intolerance, but we're going to need to attract independents and moderate Republicans (turned-off by the last N years) to form a working majority that will be able to get anything done.

As for the reality of "getting it done," I think anyone would be hard-pressed to provide any tangible differences between our final two candidates. Personally, I can't recall any significant legislation championed by Sen. Clinton other than support for a flag-burning amendment, and her most noted votes were in support of the Iraq war and the Kyl/Lieberman Iran resolution. Not exactly the record I want to take into a general election when we need to differentiate ourselves from the Republicans.

[flordehinojos]

247. dear plump, middle aged woman who doesn't own and ipod ...

"'hoping for change' myth......" hope implies expectations. expectations bring disappointments.
barack obama is and will be a disappointment. people are not listening. inspirational? the man can't even string together a coherent sentence without a prepared text and if he doesn't have a prepared text he goes into space trying hard to find the words that he can put together coherently.
he has a problem with his thought/speech pattern. obama is a fabrication of the hypocritical media who likes to sell lies for truth. he intones his words to make them appear as if he is he the next martin luther king. he is not. and he can bleat "si se puede, yes we can" in a parody if the, "I have a dream" martin luther king jr. line.

when the marielitos came ashore in 1981 many of them turned back to face the ocean and the waters separating them from their departed cuba and, for the first time, the wave of emotionalism which pushed them onto the peruvian embassy in havana and into the boats that brought them ashore having passed and there being calm in each one of their emotions,the calm then allowing them to think, many of them asked themselves, "what have i done?" and then they wept.

obamamania is like that. a wave of emotionalism which, if it carries him to the mountain top, will have many people asking themselves afterwards, "what have we done?"


And yes, like you, "I'm not reaching out to any god damned Republicans for nothing. No way." Not even obama.

[VotesForWomen]

250. right on. go Hill! nt

[cgrindley]

252. The way to solve a problem created by boomers is NOT by electing another boomer

it really is time for a change. I'm okay with Hillary winning, but as a member of Generation X, I want a president who more closely represents me and my generation.

[BooScout]

253. Truely?

Well Obama is a whole year younger than me. I guess a year makes a huge difference eh?:eyes:

[Maribelle]

285. Obama is a boomer (n/t)

[cgrindley]

287. Obama is 1961, 4 years short of Gen X

Clinton, on the other hand, is a pure boomer.

[BooScout]

292. Obama is indeed a boomer.....(as pure as it comes)

A babyboomer was born between 1946-1964. Deal with it. Your dream guy is nothing but an 'old man' and you have swallowed the hype .....hook, line and sinker. That's a saying we old timers have don't ya know.:eyes:

[cgrindley]

301. Nonsense... 1961 has more in common with 1966 than it does with 1946

I'd rather he be a true member of my generation, but he's close enough.

[Maribelle]

308. 1961 has a lot more in common with 1960, 1959, 1958, 1957 than it does with 1966

Would you care for a list?

[cgrindley]

311. No way.

Someone born in 1961 was 19 for Raygun being elected.
Someone born in 1957 was 23 for Raygun's first term.

Big difference.

[BooScout]

334. Oh yes........

It's hugh. Seriesly. :eyes:

Btw........I'm 5 years older than my DH. I'm a craddle robber.:rofl:

[BooScout]

324. You can twist it all you want.......

But he's a boomer and I'm a boomer. I was born one year before him. I get him. I get he's alot of plastic with no substance.

[cgrindley]

326. See? What did I say... typical boomer

only a god damn Boomer would suggest that *ANY* politician has substance or be hopelessly naive enough to actually expect that one might still have substance at the national level. On the other hand, Generation X knows that none of them do, and so chooses accordingly. Obama is a politician and, as a cynical member of my generation, I understand exactly what sort of creatures *ALL* politicians are. Hell, I used to be a speechwriter way back in my 20's. I know what these people are like. You can't trust any of them.

Having said that, I like Obama. Out of a bad bunch, he's pretty cool. I like his plastic. I distrust him far less than I distrust the others. He's also really good looking, tall and slim. He has good speechwriters and he could do a lot to improve America's image.

[BooScout]

335. "He's also really good looking, tall and slim"

Now there's a wonderful criteria for picking someone to run the damned country.

God help us all.

[cgrindley]

340. It's one of many criteria, right President Dukakis? right President Kucinich?

if you don't think that appearance is important, you're not paying attention.

[BooScout]

343. then vote for plasticman then

After that incredibly shallow statement you deserve him.

[cgrindley]

344. See? Again... typical Boomer not getting it

if you think that it's shallow to recognize the shallowness of America or deep to be oblivious to the shallowness of America then you're just not getting it.

[Maribelle]

294. So, can we put you on record as saying four years don't matter?

We might be in agreement here.

I think Obama's just-barely-three-years makes him weak on experience to be running for president.

[cgrindley]

303. Look... I don't want to get into a slagging match

I respect and admire Hillary. I haven't said anything negative about her. I save my invective for Edwards and Kucinich supporters.

I think that Obama has appropriate education, experience, and intellect to be president. Columbia. Harvard. Teaching at U of Chicago. State legislature. US Senate. A few books.... he's got enough.

To be perfectly honest, I'd say that intelligence is probably the most important thing we should look for in this race, and Obama is clearly more on the ball than anyone else who has been even remotely in either set of primary battles.

[TomClash]

255. This screed against youth certainly changed my mind

I really hate these kids who are hoping for change. I just hate them because we all know it's not their country too. :sarcasm: They just do the dying every time there's a war.

Yes, there's such a vast difference between Hillary and Barack on the issues. As if their views on most issues are not very close. :sarcasm:

Reaching out to Republican and independent voters is how you win national elections. It's what Bill Clinton did. You don't think Hillary will do the same - think again. You think she was going to bible study with Sam Brownbeck on the Hill for the religion? Get real.

I want to win. I want to control the levers of power to bring about a progressive agenda. When was the last time a Clinton got that done?

Thank you, no. This New Yorker is voting for Barack.

[Political Heretic]

256. I'm a plump, middle aged man who doesn't own an ipod.

What does that mean?

[Vinca]

258. I'm a plump, middle aged woman who doesn't own an ipod

or,for that matter, a cell phone. I swear! If that pegs me as a Clinton supporter, I beg to differ.

I believe in hope. And dreams. And the future. Obama inspires me like no other candidate has in my "older" adult life. Part of that inspiration is how he connects to younger people and how he has gotten them into the process. No one has done that since McGovern. No one.
His message of unity is long overdue. As much as I dislike Republicans, I know I have to get past that because we've seen what the polarizing has amounted to: a government stuck in a rut and accomplishing nothing. Not a thing. Until we get to the day when every vote doesn't include a filibuster, this country will stagnate. Both candidates are intelligent and both are capable of being president. What draws me to Obama is hard to quantify. He just has "it."

[NoBorders]

268. Another condescending Hilbot

No, I'm not a young iPod-wearing shallow unexperienced naive twit voting or OBama. I'm middle aged with children and I think Obama offers our best chance for winning this election.

If that makes you angry, then you can fuck off too.

[ecstatic]

269. I'm a slim, sexy, upscale college educated woman in her 20s

Despite being very technologically savvy I've resisted Ipod-mania, although I did buy an MP3 player that was on sale at Best Buy the day after Thanksgiving. Oh, and I support both Clinton and Obama! :)

[remember2000forever]

273. Divide And Conquer

My, This Sure Is Working For The Republicans. With All The Pissed Off People Out There After Georgie Boy's Reign Of Terror, You'd Think That This Election Would Be A Landslide, Wouldn't You?
But "No....."! The Powers That Be Need To "KEEP THE ELECTION CLOSE!" That Way Diebold Can Work It's Magic. So..... Sad. We All In Our Hearts Really Now How This Is Going To End, Don't We? So Very, Very Sad. Thanks For Trying Mr. Edwards, But You Never Even Had A Chance In Our Current Political Climate. And That, My Friends, Is The Saddest!

[EOTE]

274. Plump 20 something male here

and I think this thread has convinced me to vote Edwards during the primary, even if it means writing him in. Kucinich best represents me ideologically, but I wouldn't have had to hold my nose to vote Edwards. I know he's an honest man with the best intentions. Now that we're left with the two we've got, perhaps I'll leave it to all of you who can manage to find a difference between them to determine whether I'll be voting for the ass or the schmuck (don't ask who's who, I couldn't tell you) in the general election.

[Jawja]

278. I'm a plump, middle-aged woman

who doesn't own an I-pod, but I DO own an XBOX. I will be voting for Obama on Tuesday.

My tiny, elderly mother doesn't own either an I-pod or an XBOX and she proudly voted for Obama last week because Georgia has early voting.

[rucky]

281. The "Obama supporters are shallow" implication...

IS shallow!

Anybody who doesn't see the substance in one candidate or another is simply choosing not to.

[tomp]

283. if anyone on this thread was really progressive...

...they'd have supported kucinich and we wouldn't be splitting centrist hairs now. too late now. we've already lost and you don't even know it.

[Individualist]

353. Ahem...

I voted for him on Jan. 18. :)

[tomp]

398. ok, i could have phrased that better.

i mean i suspect that the vast majority were never willing to go to the mat for kucinich the way they seem to be willing to do for the big three. people who never supported kucinich cannot claim to be progressive now.

[mondo joe]

376. Even real progressives live in the real world, and know DK had no chance.

Don't confuse being a progressive with acting out as you see fit.

[tomp]

399. what constitutes a chance?

the only thing a candidate needs to win is support. did you give kucinich support, try to get others to do the same? "unelectable" is a self-fulfilling prophecy and a low form of criticism.

[sofeisty]

284. It's the American Idol Election for President of the United States

Face it, substance doesn't matter but personality and charm do. What more would we expect from the reality TV mentality of which we currently survive. We now appreciate what is aesthetically appealing versus what our instinct or intuition might tell us what is needed.

That is how Barrack Obama has been able to get a foothold and become a force for the nominee. People like his persona and his charisma and that is enough to hand him the keys to the White House. A middle aged woman who's been labeled an ugly bitch doesn't stand a chance against a package so pretty that is wrapped in bow so fresh.

We need a candidate who will do what Bush did the past 8 years because that is what it will take to reverse what Bush did the past 8 years. We don't need someone who is focused on uniting the country. We ARE united in that 70% of us see we are headed in the wrong direction. We need someone who is tough enough to do the dirty work to reverse the course we've been on.

I sense people like Obama because he is a nice guy. Great. I could like him for that as well if we were at the end of the previous Clinton administration and could afford the luxury of a nice newbie who would just continue the status quo. I sense the Republicans see this as well. I think they welcome the opportunity to have Obama in the WH because they sense he will be easier to steamroll. At least with Clinton you know there will be a fight.

So, coming from a 40 something who has never watched American Idol but sees how the mentality has permeated the two generations younger than herself, I see how you would be worried, frustrated, and cynical. People have a warped sense of 'reality' and in all likelihood we will be electing a president we find to be a nice guy. Someone we'd like to have a beer with. Someone we find charismatic, charming, and optimistic...

something very similar to what too many in this country saw in George W. Bush.

[singe]

290. i am a plump middle aged guy without an ipod

and there are a fuck of alot of us around and i resent being told that the boomer time is over and it's a new day and all that crap. i'll work for obama if he gets the nod but if i was gonna have someone go into a hostile court and fight for my life or that of my children it would be hillary i'd retain and not some guy polishing his own apple on the steps of the court house. and i too want someone who will kick the far right in the teeth, see the ideological battles in this country at this time for what they are ( life or death ) and beat their asses back to the 19th century where they belong.

[Maribelle]

296. I know a fit middle-aged hunk of a man that switched from Obama to Hillary.

He rocks.

[Kajsa]

302. Another plumb, middle-aged women

here.

I'm still undecided. My candidate, John Edwards is out.

What I'm looking for is one of the remaining candidates who comes closest to
what John stood for.I've heard so many arguments from both sides claiming
each candidate to be just that. It's confusing as hell!

I wish John had stayed through the primaries.
;(

I for one am VERY GLAD that young people are involved with this election.
After watching so many in my son's generation have NO interest whatsoever
in politics and the future of our country for so long, I welcome their interest
and involvement.

[BlueJac]

304. The typical Hillary supporter........

Doesn't how we got to where we are today. Can you spell NAFTA, deregulation of the telecomms and right wing economics?

[Lost-in-FL]

306. I'm a hispanic 37 year old, with the iMac, shuffle and ipod, et al. whom...

Obama supporters think I won't vote for him cause the media is telling them that I'm racist and that if I vote for HRC is cause I'm sexist and who believes the media picked some sorry ass candidates for me to vote during 2004 and now in 2008 and that in 2000 some sorry ass MF's voted "their conscience" and brought us GWB.

This woman thinks that youngsters will stay home playing wii on election day just like they did in 2000 and 2004 (there was no wii in to 2000 or 2004 but you get the point).

This women also believes that the only youngsters seen in anti-war demonstrations have been Veterans and their relatives but others won't give a shit about what is going on outside of DU.

[rosesaylavee]

312. Thanks for this post.

Convinced me who to vote for at last.

Obama will get my vote on Tuesday.

[EOTE]

349. Here here!

I'm still thinking that I'm going to write in Edwards during the primary, but if anything will urge me to giving my vote to Obama, it will be the pious rhetoric of HRC supporters.

[rosesaylavee]

384. Just the idea that Edwards supporters willl now vote

for HRC concerns me... who will his delegates side with in August?

[hfojvt]

313. if you don't want a love in

then why are you telling everybody to fu$% off?

"Holding on to anger with the intention of hurting somebody else is like trying to throw a hot coal at your enemy. You are the one who gets burned."

"Let there be peace on earth, and let it begin with me."

Look, if my house was blown up by some a$$hole, which do you think is more important a) beating the crap out of said a$$hole, or b) building me a new house? I would rather build houses than start a new "civil" war. Compassion is a dish best served warm.

[Vickers]

314. That's OK...I like a gal with a "little extra."

:spank:

[grace0418]

315. I'm plump, middle-aged, cynical and jaded. That's precisely why I'm sick of

Clinton's politics as usual. Not that I'm a big Obama supporter, but at least there's a *chance* for some change with him. With Clinton I see no chance for change.

Having said that, of course I'll vote for her if she's the nominee. I'll just be holding my nose as I do it, per usual.

[mdmc]

318. middle aged man, owns, but can't operate his iPod.

:mad: Ron Paul :)

[laurelbunny]

321. I like plump....

Same here. I don't want a coddler, I want a Pres who will go on the tube and point a long finger at the Republicans in Congress who continue to stone-wall progresss. We don't necessarily need someone looking to scrap, we need someone who will put the spotlight on the Republican party and make it clear to Americans why nothing improves when they have a semblance of power.

[Sulawesi]

323. I am a handsome, fit, middle-aged man who looks younger than I am...I have an Ipod,

and am voting for Barack Obama!

[Hill_YesWeWill]

327. I'm a young female Hillary supporter, I Don't own an Ipod,

but I also don't like your anger, and I do find your language offensive because it is offensive.

Here are the facts: Hillary supporters will Need Obama's supporters if she gets the nom., just like Obama supporters will need Hillary's supporters if he gets the nom.

The fact that you are trying to alienate a HUGE demographic of democratic voters makes me suspect your motives.

Obama supporters beware, this person does not represent Hillary Clinton's supporters.

[BooScout]

338. For Fucks sake....

Is the word FUCK not ladylike enough for you?

BS I don't represent Hillary Supporters. They are all here and they are just about as pissed off as me with the claptrap being slung around here lately.

Oh and if you don't like the word "fuck" then DU may not be the place for you........it's only used a couple of thousand times a day here.

[Honeycombe8]

328. I'm a white middle-aged woman w/o an IPOD, too. I support Obama.

I don't want same ol', same ol'.

If you keeping voting for the SAME PEOPLE, you get the SAME RESULTS.

[ScreamingMeemie]

330. I am an average sized widow..who doesn't give a fuck anymore.

Who can tell you to fuck off as surely as you can tell me to. We are left with two fucking lame assed candidates who are, basically, the same thing. Sorry, your candidate does fucking nothing for me.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

332. We're going to have buyer's remorse with EITHER candidate.

If you think Hillary will stand up to the Rs, you're deluding yourself. But I agree with the bit about not wanting to play nice.

Oh, and I'm a slender, middle-aged woman with an iPod.

[Tarc]

336. thank you

That the iPod generation could put this pretty-talking empty suit into office is a scary thought indeed.

[Grateful for Hope]

337. Obama

needs to earn at least some of the hype the MSM has bestowed upon him.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

339. Plump, skinny, middle-aged or old, female, male, transgendered or whatever.. we need a DEM in the WH

That's the only thing I wanted to say. Now it's said. I don't give a shit if it's a black man or a white woman. WE NEED A DEM IN THE WHITE HOUSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[oleeb]

342. I agree with you except on one thing...

I'm right there with ya on all the sentiments expressed in your post, but I don't understand how it is you think Hillary is going to kick any ass at all, let alone the Republicans? I know of nothing in her record to indicate that she would act in the ways you desire. IMO, Edwards would have brought the battle to the Republicans, but I don't see her ever doing so. I am very curious as to what makes you think she would be such an energetic and courageous Democrat. Again, I just see no evidence for it in her record.

[mod mom]

346. "I have sat and watched so much bullshit" Maybe if you got out and got involved

working in your community you'd see the damage FREE TRADE has done to the lower income and middle class.

If you want change you have to work for it, or else you're part of the problem instead of the solution.

Obama was not my first choice (Gore, Kucinich and Edwards came first) but I would gladly support his policies over Clintons. I am scheduled to get out to a visibility event (btw walking is a great solution to shed a few pounds if you are not happy with your plumbness) before the primary in my state. If Clinton is the nominee, I will only work/support lower ticket Dems.

[JVS]

367. She doesn't live in the US.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

348. For fuck's sake buy an iPod already!

They're lovely.

:evilgrin:

[katandmoon]

351. I'm probably plumper than you, don't own an IPod, closer to 60 than 50-- and don't know WTF I want!

Edwards was my man, and now I can't give my heart to either Obama or Clinton. There are things I like about each of them and things I don't like about either of them. I actually envy those of you who can "pick one" and stick with it and be passionate about it. I'm a flip-flopper.

I guess the moment of truth will come when I'm in the voting booth on Feb. 12 (my state's primary).

[BooScout]

354. I'm just wondering how many people have ever heard of Towanda?

I'm just asking.

Hillary inspires me to get angry and fight back.

[NWHarkness]

358. Tell it!

To hell with getting along. We have the3 chance to set the conservative back a generation. Why do so many Democrats want to lend them a hand up instead?

[specimenfred1984]

360. Fantastic, I logged in just to rec'd this post

Very few people want to "get along" with the criminal repunks and if they do, they don't understand to depths of crime and treason the repunks have been involved in. America needs to go after the culture of corruption from day 1, screw working with the very people who committed the crimes in the first place. America needs to prosecute and jail the criminals for 2 huge reasons: 1) to restore faith in the American system and 2) because criminals deserve jail or else they come right back and commit the same crimes all over again.

[nick303]

365. As a complete aside, why all the ipod hate?

If you're fanatical about music, is there a more environmentally sound way to enjoy it?

[BooScout]

369. I don't hate ipods......

I just don't own one. I don't own a cat either but that doesn't mean I hate cats. The problem is people read way too much into what they read.

[Beastie]

374. I don't get it...

I see. So you randomly chose to mention that you don't own ipod. Couldn't be that you consider the average ipod user as an affluent, tech-savvy youthful obama supporter you've conjured up in your feverish brain, right? All words carry meaning. Own up to it. Your original post seems resentful.

The problem I see is that the original post sets up and perpetuates imaginary divides. Young vs. old. "techy", even plump vs. svelte. Why bother with the age-baiting, or any baiting for that matter? What's the point of the post?

I'm 41, but my age, weight, socio-economic strata, gender, body type, and sexual preference have nothing to do with my vote.
I've voted in every election since '84. straight dem. This election is the first time I've imagined a truly transforming moment in this country. Dare I say it, Obama gives me hope?

Sorry you don't see it and need to cling to the manufactured divides. <yawn>

oh, and i own an ipod, but its very old, the battery is shot, and its filled with progressive music most people can't stand.

gobama

[Retrograde]

366. I have an MP3 player

that's not an iPod - much older, bulkier and not as cool-looking but it still works, despite repeated falls on the pavement. Since I'm also a plump, middle-aged woman I'll weigh in...

I like both of them and think either would be a capable president. Granted, the current standard isn't that high, and if I had my druthers I'd go with Richardson but I can see good points - and negative ones - in both.

The key thing right now is to get a Democratic president AND a Democratic congress elected in November. I think Obama has a better chance of doing that. Clinton does, like it or not, bring a lot of baggage with her, and Obama, like it or not, generates enthusiasm and gets voters out, which is important in getting that Democratic congress elected in November.

People, sad to say, vote feel-good candidates. That's one of the reasons our current Beloved Leader got in, and Reagan before him. I'm old enough to remember the Kennedy years. I don't think he was in himself a great president. However, he somehow managed to wake a sense of what this country could be that led to the Peace Corps and the space program and ultimately the Civil Rights and peace movements.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

370. Sorry you are missing this wonderful, wonderful feeling ! I truly

am. It feels so good to care and respect someone again, I am shedding the them vs. us mentality which has embittered me to the core for 7 yrs. It feels good.

[Name removed]

372. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

375. Stop Spamming. You have posted this same COPIED article 15 times. Stop it!

[ArkySue]

373. Tell it Sister!

A-men!

[DWilliamsamh]

379. Well If you don't get along with the folks ....

who got America into this mess in the first place - Hillary Clinton would seem to be a strange choice of a person to support to be the President who can start to get us out of this mess. After all she STILL thinks her vote for the Iraq use of force resolution was the proper decision, and she STILL voted to condemn Iran (another nation that is no threat to us). She STILL thinks NAFTA, and other "free trade/market reforms" are good ideas. She is a DLC Democrat, who made no attempt to fight against the very crap that got us "into this mess."

If there is any hope for a change in direction, it doesn't lie with a candidate that has LESS experience as an elected official, and MORE experience as an enabler and supporter of the things that dimmed the hopes of so many in our nation and our reputation around the world. I'm glad Hillary is talking the talk of change. Too bad she never walked the walk.

[mchill]

380. I'm a plump, middle-aged woman and I do own an iPod.

There really are some great inventions out there that don't just belong to the youth. Now I am voting for Obama, but i never thought it was because of my Ipod. Waiting for the thin part to happen, but maybe I'll be happier under Obama and start losing the weight I gained under Bush 2.

[RadioactiveCarrot]

381. This slim 20 year old guy who doesn't own an ipod...

is rooting for Gravel! woohaw.
:hide:
Boo-urns to Hillary and Obama.

[RadioactiveCarrot]

382. Whoops

Double posted.

[cushla_machree]

385. Will hillary kick republican ass?

OR will we see more of the same old same old. Edwards was the only candidate (out of the 3 last payers) who seemed ready to take on a lot of our problems head on. I won't vote for hillary because she is the status quo in my mind. I don't see her taking big leaps to change anything...I find her to be completely corporate friendly. Because i have no other choice, obama it is.

I just don't like hillary...and the turning point was and has been her stance on Iraq, like she was voting that way just to look 'tough.' I guess the main reason is, i just don't like the clintons or their style. I don't find the genuine.

[ErnestoG]

397. Vice versa, actually.

[dorktv]

386. The iPod is ON ITS WAY! Hold on! We will get through this!

heehee...sorry, I just had to but you do have a point. I was going to vote for someone else but they all dropped out and Obama annoys me.

[Marcee]

387. I'm a thin, smart, middle-aged woman who owns an ipod

Boo Scout needs to calm down. Take a valium or sip an herbal tea! Your rhetoric and word choice could easily turn undecideds into Obama supporters. Reread what you wrote; it is comical in its rage and ugly tone. While political enthusiasm is admirable, the level of toxicity and acrimony between Obama and Clinton supporters is disheartening. Whatever happened to dispassionate, reasoned, smart discussion? Suspend the acrimony, long lists of "gotcha points." After 7 years of the Bush/Cheney horrors we have been given a incredible gift of two candidates with arguably their own set of assets and liabilities. All we need now is an ugly, divided Democratic electorate like Boo Scout who can't come together to support whoever is the nominee. By the way, I am a Hillary supporter, but I am willing to rally around Obama if he is the nominee to keep "We may be there 100 years" McCain out of the White House. Stop the name calling and silly calls to "kick Republican ass." Kicking ass isn't a strategy; it's a lame response by bullies and terrorists. Raise the level of political discourse on the issues. Some blogs have closed down due to the out-of-control venom (the uncommitted Digby, for example).

[Tarheel_Dem]

390. Marcee...you're an HRC supporter I can respect.

The OP is inflammatory and condescending to young people, and anyone else who has a different view from hers. Why that venom is allowed to stand, while a couple of my posts were deleted is beyond me. We may differ in who we support, but I appreciate your more rational take on the political situation we find ourselves in at the moment.

Maybe I'm pessimistic, but I just don't see how we come together after this, if posts like this get nearly a hundred recs.

[Marcee]

394. Thanks Tarheel Dem

Thank goodness there is another sensible soul out there,
Tarheel Dem!  In reading all the posts in support of HRC,
especially Boo Scout and fans, I am beginning to think I need
to revisit my decision to go with HRC.  I have had mixed
sentiments and frankly I am doing some soul searching after
reading some of the comments. The venom is coming out so much
stronger (2:1) from the HRC camp in this blog and in others.
Just amazing and scary too.  

[anitar1]

388. And I don't want to vote for someone who will appoint

Repugs to his cabinet, as he said he would do. I have had enough of Pugs. and will his first appointment be Lieberman ? His avowed Mentor . Edit for spelling.

[cap]

393. I don't see anything wrong with her anger

there are people losing their jobs, retirements, houses because of Republican policies. People are going hungry because of their nonsense. You arent going to get any of those folks ready to make nice. They want blood.

We are in the no-spin zone.

You are lucky all she is doing is using the F word.

I am undecided ... Barack wants to, but can he? Hillary can, but will she? I do want some Republicans hung up by their heels ... I ain't ready to make nice with them. I do want reconciliation but only after a proper accounting.