Kerry voted for IWR. Why don't the Obama supporters hate him as much?

[Captain_Nemo]

Also, on the war, Obama gave one speech before he was a Senator. After that he always voted to fund the war. Where's the outrage towards him on this?

[Drunken Irishman]

1. Oh you don't KNOW many Obama supporters, do you?

I respect both Kerry and Clinton, but I was very angry with Kerry when he voted for the war. So much so that I went from supporting his candidacy in 2002, to throwing my support behind Howard Dean. I only voted for Kerry in the general election, just as I'll only vote Clinton if she wins the nomination. I was not happy with Kerry as the nominee because I feared what happened would happen and I have the same fears with Clinton.

[gasoline highway]

45. Obama suporters don't hate Hillary...

They just think Obama is much better for the job. The real question is, why do you spin facts and run such a ANTI-OBAMA movement?

[THUNDER HANDS]

2. i never defended Kerry over his IWR vote

i knew he was playing politics and it saddened me deeply because it was so out of character for him.

Hillary, on the other hand, has taken the hawkish position when faced with the choice between the hawkish road and dovish road many times. It was only recently when she needed to veer left in the primary did her votes start to become more dovish, and even then, they were tapered with votes like the Kyl-Lieberman amendment.

[Captain_Nemo]

4. McCain is scared to death of her. The repubs are hoping for an Obama win.

[Occam Bandage]

9. Wrong and wrong. Go read FR some time. They salivate at Hillary

and are convinced Obama will eat McCain for lunch.

[THUNDER HANDS]

10. what is he scared of?

[Captain_Nemo]

14. He's weak on the economy - rememebr Clinton left us with a surplus after inheriting

a disaster caused by Bush Sr. She is brilliant on military matters. Pentagon officials and many senators are impressed with her military knowledge. Obama has zero experience with the military and economy.
The two big issues.

[karynnj]

35. Hillary's concept of freezing interest rates on mortgages is playing politics

It is likely not even legal. What seems better is the Kerry/Smith provision in the Finance committee's version of the stimulus package that allocates money to enable home owners to refinance the mortgages.

Having watched Armed Services committee meetings, I seriously did not see brilliance. Have you ever seen an example - a plan that she floated that everyone pondered and latched onto. I am impressed that Richard Clarke advised Obama on national security and said that he asked all the right questions, was a quick study, and did an impressive job putting things together. (Senators Reed and Levin are both better on the committee.)

I see John Kerry as having been the person who moved Democrats on what to do on Iraq. HRC is now parroting things she villified him for in 2006. The first HRC plan I saw was in 2007 shortly sfter she announced.

[BringBigDogBack]

25. Couldn't be more incorrect.

Do you have your head in the clouds?

[Dogmudgeon]

8. Actually, Obama did not vote against Kyl-Lieberman

His record is nearly identical with HRC's.

--p!

[THUNDER HANDS]

12. he and McCain didn't vote

but we can say with certainty that he didn't vote FOR it, like Hillary did.

[Dogmudgeon]

23. Avoiding difficult votes. Is that supposed to be a good thing?

The presidential equivalent would be missing the State of the Union address or failing to draw up a US Annual Budget.

One of the biggest and most puzzling issues in which Obama has been let off the hook is his habit of missing important votes. Nearly all the ratings organizations penalize a congress member if they are absent for a vote -- they count them as having voted against the interests of the organization. Ergo, the organizations promoting the interests of Democrats and liberals count him as assenting to Kyl-Lieberman.

I can't understand this. Missing votes, especially the big ones, has never been dismissed as no big deal in any election I can remember.

--p!

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

3. Kerry admitted his vote was a mistake

He voiced reservations at the time he voted, and stated he was only voting yes based on Bush's claims that war would be a last resort. He later said his vote was a mistake.

Hillary has never admitted her mistake. She always blames someone else.

[Captain_Nemo]

5. and he's weak. You should always take responsibillity for your votes as a senator.

[Occam Bandage]

7. Since when is not apologizing for bad votes "taking responsibility?" Kerry owned up to it.

That's responsibility.

[THUNDER HANDS]

13. don't waste the bandwith

you'll hurt your fingers trying to reason with people who don't understand what responsibility means.

[Occam Bandage]

16. If responsibility is pigheaded refusal to own up to mistakes, Bush is the most responsible

man alive.

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

15. Like Clinton took responsibility for hers?

[IndianaGreen]

22. Hillary is as much a sociopath as Bush

They are both incapable of admitting mistake or feeling empathy for the victims of the policies they advocated.

[Captain_Nemo]

33. Oh, that's brilliant and well reasoned.

[karynnj]

37. He has taken responsibity, she hasn't

It is also clear that in the many times he has said it, it is something that he clearly takes to heart. It likely helps, that he spoke out before the invasion and in the early days when the war was popular - enough that he was labeled anti-war. As Magic rat said, that vote was not typical of Kerry.

There has been no one who has worked harder on exit plans. The way you take responsibility for something is to admit it was wrong and work to fix it.

[jillan]

32. But - On the campaign trail in 2004, Kerry was asked - if you knew then what you know now

would you have voted for the IWR...and he said yes.

I wanted to be sick.

[karynnj]

47. You know better than that

It is NOT clear what the question was and it seems clear from his answer that he gave the same answer he had to questions without that condition. Even in that response it was clear he wouldn't have invaded. It was clear in many comments made before than that he would not have invaded.

It makes me sick to see you turn on Kerry after all these years because you don't like who he endorsed.

Why did HRC call Kerry/Feingold "cut and run"? Why did she and Bill counsel the Democrats not to take a stand on Iraq in 2006, because if Bush started to withdraw troops it could hurt them in 2006? Kerry's stand that he could not stay silent when the policy was wrong was the more honorable approach. It also turned out to be the better political course - as within 6 months HRC was saying that the Iraqis would not take the difficult steps they need to take if they think we will always be there and other things that she had vilified Kerry for saying in 2006.

What it comes down to for me is that I know what Kerry's philosophy on war is - and I agree with it. I get that even in 2004, while running for President he was saying in terms that a very large number of people understood that the war was immoral. That is what it meant as he daily said it was not a war of last resort. I have no idea what HRC's philosophy is - and it concerns me. I think that Obama's philosophy is likely to be closer to Kerry's.

Here is what Biden, your avartar (which you might as well change to HRC) had to say about Kerry on Iraq last year:
http://www.kerryvision.net/2007/09/biden_gives_props_to_senator_k.html

[Occam Bandage]

6. I didn't vote Kerry in the '04 primary, largely because of that.

[sandnsea]

11. You must not have been here in 2004

:scared:

Kerry spoke out against Bush's rush to war, just like he said he would when he made his vote. He continued to speak against it and had a plan to begin withdrawing troops in 2005 - except Hillary's "stay the course" rhetoric confused the press and she wouldn't shut the hell up.

[still_one]

17. I didn't know Kerry was running? However, Hillary is running and did vote for it

at the same time Obama critisized the IWR. Voting for funding to protect soldiers who were sent there because of those that voted for that resolution, is not the same thing.

As for your criticism on Kerry voting for the IWR, I did criticize him at the time, and thought he was a poor choice. I actually though Howard Dean had the best position.

[Sulawesi]

18. Yes, and I would vote for Obama over him too, what's your point? nt

[Adelante]

19. I don't excuse Kerry's IWR vote - he was wrong

However, I respect him far, far more than others, because he opposed the invasion and occupation. As far as funding goes, I wouldn't support someone who would defund with troops in danger and it would be political suicide for any of our candidates. I hold IWR Yes voters accountable for getting us into the war. Once in, it's a thousand times harder to get out, which is why war should always be the last, last, last resort.

[ProSense]

20. Kerry, unlike Hillary, spoke out against Bush several times before Bush invaded,

including this speech at Georgetown University on Thursday, January 23, 2003:

As our government conducts one war and prepares for another, I come here today to make clear that we can do a better job of making our country safer and stronger. We need a new approach to national security - a bold, progressive internationalism that stands in stark contrast to the too often belligerent and myopic unilateralism of the Bush Administration. I offer this new course at a critical moment for the country that we love, and the world in which we live and lead. Thanks to the work and sacrifice of generations who opposed aggression and defended freedom, for others as well as ourselves, America now stands as the world's foremost power. We should be proud: Not since the age of the Romans have one people achieved such preeminence. But we are not Romans; we do not seek an empire. We are Americans, trustees of a vision and a heritage that commit us to the values of democracy and the universal cause of human rights. So while we can be proud, we must be purposeful and mindful of our principles: And we must be patient - aware that there is no such thing as the end of history. With great power, comes grave responsibility.

<...>
Second, without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime. We all know the litany of his offenses. He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. He miscalculated an eight-year war with Iran. He miscalculated the invasion of Kuwait. He miscalculated America's response to that act of naked aggression. He miscalculated the result of setting oil rigs on fire. He miscalculated the impact of sending scuds into Israel and trying to assassinate an American President. He miscalculated his own military strength. He miscalculated the Arab world's response to his misconduct. And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction. That is why the world, through the United Nations Security Council, has spoken with one voice, demanding that Iraq disclose its weapons programs and disarm.

So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but it is not new. It has been with us since the end of the Persian Gulf War. Regrettably the current Administration failed to take the opportunity to bring this issue to the United Nations two years ago or immediately after September 11th, when we had such unity of spirit with our allies. When it finally did speak, it was with hasty war talk instead of a coherent call for Iraqi disarmament. And that made it possible for other Arab regimes to shift their focus to the perils of war for themselves rather than keeping the focus on the perils posed by Saddam's deadly arsenal. Indeed, for a time, the Administration's unilateralism, in effect, elevated Saddam in the eyes of his neighbors to a level he never would have achieved on his own, undermining America's standing with most of the coalition partners which had joined us in repelling the invasion of Kuwait a decade ago.

In U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441, the United Nations has now affirmed that Saddam Hussein must disarm or face the most serious consequences. Let me make it clear that the burden is resoundingly on Saddam Hussein to live up to the ceasefire agreement he signed and make clear to the world how he disposed of weapons he previously admitted to possessing. But the burden is also clearly on the Bush Administration to do the hard work of building a broad coalition at the U.N. and the necessary work of educating America about the rationale for war. As I have said frequently and repeat here today, the United States should never go to war because it wants to, the United States should go to war because we have to. And we don't have to until we have exhausted the remedies available, built legitimacy and earned the consent of the American people, absent, of course, an imminent threat requiring urgent action.

The Administration must pass this test. I believe they must take the time to do the hard work of diplomacy. They must do a better job of making their case to the American people and to the world.

I have no doubt of the outcome of war itself should it be necessary. We will win. But what matters is not just what we win but what we lose. We need to make certain that we have not unnecessarily twisted so many arms, created so many reluctant partners, abused the trust of Congress, or strained so many relations, that the longer term and more immediate vital war on terror is made more difficult. And we should be particularly concerned that we do not go alone or essentially alone if we can avoid it, because the complications and costs of post-war Iraq would be far better managed and shared with United Nation's participation. And, while American security must never be ceded to any institution or to another institution's decision, I say to the President, show respect for the process of international diplomacy because it is not only right, it can make America stronger - and show the world some appropriate patience in building a genuine coalition. Mr. President, do not rush to war.

Kerry has never wavered in calling out Bush on his immoral war, and he led the effort to set a deadline for withdrawal.

[Dogmudgeon]

27. Hillary made several such speeches, including to the Senate

But you are only looking for stuff to support your point of view.

"Hillary does it, too! Hillary does it, too!"

Uh ... right.

--p!

[IndianaGreen]

21. Kerry repented and he pushed for resolution with troop withdrawal timetables

Your "girl" remains unrepentant, mainly because like all DLC scum she believes in the goals of the war, and she opposed Kerry not only on his troop withdrawal resolution but on his filibuster of Alito.

That's why the antiwar Left hates Hillary's guts, and will continue to do so even in the unlikely event that she were to beat McCain in the Fall.

[BootinUp]

28. Kerry lost an election in part because he refused to stand firm

and sounded flip floppy, now you want Hillary to follow his example?

[MoJoWorkin]

36. So let me get this straight---even when wrong, never admit it.

To me, the mark of a great leader is the ability to admit ones mistakes. I trust that person infinitely more than one like Bush and Hillary who claim not to have made them, when there is so much damning evidence to the contrary.

[BootinUp]

38. Based on the information she had at the time, she feels it was the right decision

To force Saddaam to yield to UN inspections and resolutions that he was thumbing his nose at. In fact she was lied to, we all were lied to by our President th chimp. But the inspections did resume and Iraq did try furiously to work out the problem with the UN after this IWR vote. Then the chimp kicked the inspectors out.

I do not believe the Dems could have stopped the war anyways. You might be interested in Sen. Hagels comments on that.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=4360083

[IndianaGreen]

46. Millions marched against the war across the world

Hillary just thought she was better than everyone else, so she did things like calling the NYPD to remove peace petitioners that had come to her NY office. As President, she will use the powers that Bush has usurped against the peace movement.

[karynnj]

42. Kerry was actually pretty consistent in what he said in 2004

The Republicans and the media distorted what he said.

Here is a Knight/Rider summary:
http://www.pittnews.com/home/index.cfm?event=displayArticlePrinterFriendly&uStory_id=d37dec98-8a65-4569-9414-79d09983ee3c

[Recursion]

24. It's the contrition, stupid

(Not saying you're stupid; it's just a figure of speech.)

We need leaders who aren't afraid to admit mistakes. I feel like Clinton will never admit a mistake.

[BootinUp]

26. That Obama speech is that the one he pulled off his website

when he ran for US Senate?

[Dawgs]

29. I don't hate anyone that voted for the IWR.

Kerry, Edwards, and Hillary were all wrong to vote for it, but I don't hate them.

And, Obama voted to fund the troops - not the war.

[southern_dem]

30. Kerry isn't running for President

and I don't equate funding with getting us into the war. Bush will keep troops there no matter what so we shouldn't leave them without the equipment they need. Once we get a Democrat in the White House, then we can get them out.

[karynnj]

31. Maybe because Kerry spoke against going to war

before the invasion and because Kerry has led in working to get out of Iraq - when the Clintons were arguing that the Democrats not have an alternative plan in 2006.

Even Ted Kennedy voted for the funding - Kerry/Feingold was the first attempt to constrain Bush and it is the basis of Feingold/Reid that was the Democratic bill that was passed, then vetoed that would have told Bush to set a deadline.

[Bad Thoughts]

41. "We need regime change at home"

Indeed, he strove to make real the idea that the IWR was about inspectors, while most senators were sitting on their hands.

[u2spirit]

34. Uh, because Kerry isn't running

That was a brilliant question.

[alteredstate]

39. Kerry's vote on the war was a great disappointment to me.

What does that have to do with my support of Barack Obama?

[AX10]

40. Because the left wing has bought the right wing's talking points...

about her. Shameful.

[Alexander]

43. Kerry is capable of admitting mistakes. Hillary Clinton is not.

I gave Kerry hell over IWR, if you search the archives. But I give credit to people who admit they fucked up.

If and when Senator Clinton admits she made a mistake, I will give her credit for that. So far she hasn't.

[fedupinBushcountry]

44. So many forget

at the time of that vote 70% of Americans wanted inspectors in to stop Bush's rush to war. Sometimes on DU I think that I was the only one listening and reading articles back then that had Bush wanting our troops in Iraq as early as Nov '02. I have never held that vote against anyone and I am anti-war, but at the time it was the only thing that many thought would stop the idiot in chief.

You know this thing about the IWR vote is not one of my reasons for supporting Obama, my reason for supporting Obama is because I want change not only in this country but in the Democratic party, that change started in '04 and I just hope we really make it happen this time around.