There is a lot of disinformation about Hillarys American Choices Health Plan

[BootinUp]

For instance, people are saying the Government plan option is only for the uninsured and low income people. WRONG

NO ONE WILL BE FORCED TO BUY PRIVATE INSURANCE

Here is the relevant part of her plan summarized:

The American Health Choices Plan gives Americans the choice to preserve their existing coverage, while offering new choices to those with insurance, to the 47 million people in the United States without insurance, and the tens of millions more at risk of losing coverage.


The Same Choice of Health Plan Options that Members of Congress Receive: Americans can keep their existing coverage or access the same menu of quality private insurance options that their Members of Congress receive through a new Health Choices Menu, established without any new bureaucracy as part of the Federal Employee Health Benefit Program (FEHBP). In addition to the broad array of private options that Americans can choose from, they will be offered the choice of a public plan option similar to Medicare.

[Avalux]

1. American Choices - lol. Mandates and wage garnishment are not CHOICE.

Hillary using GOP doublespeak I see. Nice.

[OzarkDem]

7. Answer this, then

If I pay into a government based health plan and you don't until you get sick or are injured, why should I have to subsidize your care?

That's like saying you shouldn't have to pay into Social Security until you're ready to retire. :thumbsdown:

[BootinUp]

10. Nicely put

you might want to start a thread with that logical statement.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

11. But it says CHOICE! And it's AMERICAN!

Doesn't that make you feel free? ;)

[ThatPoetGuy]

12. Uh, "mandates" is GOP propaganda.

It's up there with "family values," the "nanny state," and "welfare queens."

A deliberate deception to scare people into voting against their own best interests.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

15. One of your examples is not like the others

Family Values, Welfare Queens, and the Nanny State are mostly false constructs.

When you compel people by law to do something, it's a mandate.

[Emit]

2. So, would there be a premium to pay for the plan similar to Medicare? n/t

[BootinUp]

3. Yes but it would vary based on ability to pay,

and lower income people would be elgible for subsidies.

[Kittycat]

5. Again, "Ability to pay"

So in areas with high cost of living, you're screwed. :thumbsdown:

[OzarkDem]

6. You get a tax credit to help pay for it

As for the argument about "high cost of living areas" - that makes no sense. :thumbsdown:

[Emit]

22. Tax credit?

And that helps the poor how?


As I understand, most tax credits are used to offset federal income tax liability -- they're not given as a refund. Many poor, low-income families who have little or no federal income tax liability will struggle to pay for these mandated health care costs, and ultimately, potentially, receive no benefit.

And, many tax credits only cover a fraction of expenses they are meant to off-set -- most tax credits are not adjusted for inflation.

I honestly don't think some people quite understand what it is like to be poor and how the system works against, or at a minimum, doesn't always work in their best interest, despite attempts to help.

[Kittycat]

25. Oh yes, issue a tax credit after the fact. Who's bringing food by in the meantime?

Clearly you have no concept of what a tax credit is.

Second... In areas with high costs of living, money doesn't stretch as far. So, like the WIC program, many people in need of the program don't qualify, but those that really don't (in some areas) need it - get it, because it's income based. $38K in downstate IL is a decent wage. $38K in Chicago is broke, and struggling. I don't even know HOW a family of 4 survives here on $38K/year. Just sayin. So let's mandate a healthcare garnishment. That's going to go over well.

[Emit]

28. "Who's bringing food by in the meantime.."

No joke, Kittycat. I honestly believe people don't understand that when you're really poor, tax credits hardly help -- it's like they have no concept of what it's like to be that poor.

[sandnsea]

37. If you're median income or less

what people really don't understand is the huge number of people who make $10-15 hr in this country which isn't anywhere near enough to pay several hundred dollars for insurance.

[Emit]

39. That, too, sandsea, yes. I agree.

There are several areas involving income thresholds in various systems where people fall between the cracks, or where the systems fails them.

If I understand correctly from what I've read, the issue you bring up here is the problem that Massachusetts is facing. For example:

... The new Massachusetts health plan is really the outline upon which both the Obama and Clinton plans are based. Mass has an individual mandate. But the problem is people still can't afford to buy insurance. Mass is doing a great job getting people covered with incomes so low that they have their health insurance fully paid for. But, for those families who make too much for a subsidy that pays less than the full cost--or none of the cost--the Mass program is faltering. Only a few thousand uninsured Mass residents whose incomes are above the lowest levels have signed up for the mandated coverage. ...

http://healthpolicyandmarket.blogspot.com/2007/12/hillary-clinton-criticizes-barack.html

[OzarkDem]

33. If you're that low income, you'll get Medicaid

Her plan also includes expanding and improving Medicaid. Its certainly more than Obama's plan accomplishes. He doesn't cover 15 million people and calls it "giving them a choice"

http://www.health08.org/sidebyside_results.cfm?c=11&c=16

[Kittycat]

34. Again - no you don't get medicaid

Mandated total household healthcare, is not going to float in areas where the cost of living is high. In those areas, people generally make a higher wage - that doesn't mean they're better off. We pay considerabley higher taxes, substantially more for food/goods/services, the list goes on. As I mentioned, look at the WIC program for example. There are many families in downstate IL that take advantage of the program (in the literal sense), yet families up in the chicago area don't qualify because it's income based without consideration to cost of living. And somehow I doubt highly that HRC plans on making tiers based on where you live. And what good is a tax credit after the fact? You have to pay the premiums up front.

[sandnsea]

38. It's the people just above the WIC guidelines

who are going to be left out of all assistance, just like always. Not wealthy enough to take advantage of any of the tax loopholes, not poor enough to get any govt assistance. I would say that's actually most working families in the country and where Democrats actually lose voters.

[sandnsea]

36. Like the $1,000 Hope College Tax Credit??

:shrug:

[BlackVelvet04]

16. No....

ability to pay takes into account cost of living and individual circumstances. :eyes:

[Emit]

23. Does her plan say that ability to pay takes into consideration cost of living

because with most of these kinds of services to the poor, they are based strictly on proven income, nothing more.

[Kittycat]

35. Exactly.

The mound of paperwork, calculations and sheer intolerance by outlying areas - it wouldn't fly.

[Emit]

8. After having worked in a public agency servicing low-income disabled individuals

with close ties to Social Security Admin and Welfare, as well as other public agencies servicing low-income, I will tell you that mandating pay -- even if it is on some sliding scale or with subsidy -- is a nightmare.

It will not be that simple, I will guarantee you.

You can't squeeze blood from a turnip -- if people can't afford it, or don't want to pay, what happens then?

What kind of paper work is required to "prove" they can or can't afford it and what kind of hurdles will there be to access the subsidies if they can prove they can't afford it.

[OzarkDem]

13. Low income people won't have to pay

Clinton's plan calls for expanding Medicaid eligibility to cover more low income adults, children, families, etc.


http://www.health08.org/sidebyside_results.cfm?c=11&c=16

[BootinUp]

17. Getting them in the plans

will be a somewhat painful transition, but estimates are that all but a couple percent or so will be enrolled a plan whether private or government run after the transition.

The beauty of a mandated system is that when you need healthcare and you are in a plan you will get it with minimum guaranteed service levels enacted through regulations.

If you are not in a plan you will enrolled in something and it will be to each persons advantage to provide information to get credits and lower premiums so they can have better level of service.

[BlackVelvet04]

18. You are so wrong.....

I've been able to get different services on a sliding scale fee. It wasn't a nightmare at all and they needed far less information than the damn insurance companies ask for.

[Emit]

27. I am not wrong, but perhaps have a different insight and experience. A lot depends where you live

what state, what programs your community offers, etc.

We have a lot more services now in our community than we did even 10 years ago, but they are not streamlined and people fall between the cracks often. Welfare to work, for example, was an utter nightmare.

Accessing many services and meeting the requirements are not as easy as others might assume for persons with disabilites and no income -- in some cases, for example, being required to attend an appointment but the client not having enough $ for the bus, etc.

I am glad you found access to these programs an easy path to follow -- it should be, but, sadly, is not always the case. Often, in working with developmentally disabled, persons with severe mental health, and other forms of physical and mental disabilities, it becomes even more difficult to maneuver through the system(s) without assistance from an advocate or a family member. What might be easy for some is an absolute nightmare for others.

Also, ironically, in our community, getting emergency medical services through ER, the local clinic and State mental health were the easiest programs for clients to access. Getting them on SSDI/SSI with Medicare or Medicaid, consistency in health care, permanent housing, etc. was more difficult in most cases.

edit typo

[Bluerthanblue]

31. thank you Emit-

I've been on the other side of this issue myself. It isn't easy- for either the client or the caseworker.
:hi:

peace~

[John Q. Citizen]

14. Determining abilty to pay is costly. Someone reviews all income information and approves or denies.

That is why the overhead of medicare is signicantly lower than the overhead for medicade. Medicare is auotmatic when some turns 65. Medicade is based on abilty to pay.

No more band aide solutions.

Lets do it right the first time.

Why are Americans so lame? Canada has a great system, we already know it delivers more heath care for all for less cost.

Why fuck around?

[OzarkDem]

19. Medicaid is based on the Federal Poverty Guidelines

which are updated annually. Its really pretty simple.

[John Q. Citizen]

26. And it's significantly more expensive to administer because client eligibility has to be determined

and reviewed periodically.

When a household has a change of income that needs to be reported and documented.

If it isn't reported then disciplinary actions are taken.

All that stuff cost money which isn't being spent on health care services.

Which is why medicare has a significantly lower overhead to administer than medicaid does.

[Bluerthanblue]

30. nothing simple about it-

On what experience or knowledge do you base your opinion?
Medicaid is also influenced by state guidlines-

I've been there, and I help others navigate through this maze.

There is NOTHING easy or simple about medicaid coverage.

peace~

[Emit]

32. Thanks for your input, Bluerthanblue

Until people have experienced these mazes firsthand, it is very difficult for them to grasp. They read on paper what appears to sound like a reasonable benefit from their perspective, all the while never understanding the glitches inherent in these systems for the people who have to navigate them in real life. It's frustrating.

[Bluerthanblue]

4. offered a choice? what choice? Medicare is age based, Medicaid is

means based.

I could get medicaid if I let the government but a lien on our home.- This is all I have, and can hope to leave to my kids when I'm gone- what kind of a choice is that?

thanks- but no thanks.

peace~

[OzarkDem]

9. Try reading the plan

http://www.health08.org/sidebyside_results.cfm?c=11&c=16

[Bluerthanblue]

29. I HAVE-- have you?

Hillary's plan offers NOTHING different-

If you have some wisdom that is apart from this, I'd appreciate your pointing it out- in detail.


peace~

[BlackVelvet04]

20. Didn't Hillary say she would open up the

government plans that federal employee gets to everyone who wants it? I worked for the federal government at one time and would LOVE to get back that coverage.

[BootinUp]

21. Yes the FEHBP, this is mentioned

in the OP. Is that what you meant?

[BlackVelvet04]

24. Yes, they have great coverage.....

I would love to be able to switch to that.