Universal Healthcare means EVERYONE HAS TO BE COVERED

[busymom]

Get over it. If the monetary risk is not shared, it is unsustainable. Healthcare costs will NOT go down if people are allowd to OPT OUT and then they get sick or injured and have to take advantage of the system that the rest of us are paying for.

NOT mandating universal healthcare will give us exactly the situation that we have NOW.

My brother could buy health insurance....but he doesn't...he has money for video games, cigarettes (YUCK!), and going out with his friends every weekend. He doesn't buy in because he doesn't have to. Guess who paid 4 years ago when he had a motorcycle accident. YOU DID! Guess why tylenol costs ~$15 for a single dose? Because of my brother not having insurance.

If you WANT universal health insurance you have to mandate coverage or it is NOT universal coverage.

DUH !!!!

[Oregone]

1. No, It means everyone has to be Cared for.

Insurance Coverage != Care

[DJ13]

4. "Insurance Coverage != Care"

No, insurance coverage = profits over care

[lvx35]

14. Oh really? Than what does NO coverage == ?

Because that's what we have, and that's what Hillary will end.

[Oregone]

19. Not really true at all.

Most people are covered currently (albeit millions who are not).

But many of the covered are not cared for (which is a huge problem, aside the extraordinary costs of coverage to begin with). Hillary's plan does not end the epidemic of insurance companies putting profits before people, and ensuring everyone is cared for. Hillary's plan, rather, does guarentee that private health insurance companies will make larger profits by covering more individuals.

This is not a plan progressives should be lining up behind. Both these plans essentially suck and amount to a tiny amount of progress (if any).

[lvx35]

21. Here, let's look at this:

Hillary's plan, rather, does guarentee that private health insurance companies will make larger profits by covering more individuals.

Now how does that work? We know Hillary's plan offers the option to have either private, or government care like Obama's, and people can choose. So can it make private insurance companies more money? Yes, if they choose private over government coverage. This will happen only if the private care turns out to be better than the government care so more people choose it. If that's the case, than there is no argument for single payer healthcare whatsoever.

[Oregone]

28. Of course private insurance will look better on paper.

But they will deny claims and will not honor their commitment to people. Not to mention, itll look better on the TV advertisements theyll have the money to brainwash consumers with.

Single payer healthcare is only effective when you do not leave the option of opting out, and EVERYONE contributes to it progressively according to their income level. If you still allow the richest people to opt out, you are losing the greatest source of income for the system, bankrupting and crippling it from the beginning. And yes, I feel the richer should pay more to contribute to the health of the workers in the contry that contribute to the economy that makes them wealthy.

Multi-Tiered systems naturally bankrupt the public end, as well as providing different levels of health care, which is contradictory to the notion that everyone has an equal, universal right to the same level of health care.

[BootinUp]

37. How will they deny claims when it will be against the law

Hillarys plan puts in place minimum levels of guaranteed coverage, and regulates the ins industry to prevent them denying claims, and declining coverage.

If you and other smart people choose the government plan then Private insurers will have to compete for you or leave the business.

[Oregone]

41. And you believe in that Utopian system?

That being, 1) the government unambiguously and clearly creating law to prevent claim and care denials, and 2) the private insurance companies truly following the law and not circumventing it with loopholes to provide true coverage to all those insured?

Do you realize that if private insurers were actually honoring their policies that either 1) their profits would decrease dramatically (thereby interferring with the level of services they would offer) or 2) their premiums would have to increase dramatically to compensate for the loss. Its like putting a bunch of pigs at the trough, whove been feasting for years, on a 2000 calorie diet. And its worse considering the person to put them on a diet has been in their backpocket for that amount of time. Im cynical...because it really will not happen.

And if it did...if you could force hundreds of private insurers to play nice and adhere to strict rules about coverage, why do you need a hundred private insurers to do so? If the market is no longer a "free market" via these regulation, why pretend so that it still is free? That being, if you could really force all these companies to function in such a way, why by any means is that more effecient than a single institution doing so?

And again, I must reiterate that there will be no private insurers competing with government health care. The government system will be doomed from the getgo to be honest. The most valued contributors (those that have the greatest means to contribute for the most), will not opt into the public system, thereby stripping it of the greatest source of funding there could be. Further, more at risk people will opt in (the older and poor), which are also demographics at great risk to incur costs, so itll naturally look like a bloated government bureaucracy.

No one should pay a premium. There should be no opting in. The government alone should fund a single institution to provide universal and equal healthcare to all, which is funded by the taxpayers (and therefore proportionally more by the wealthier who can afford more easily to do so via a higher tax rate on them). That is the only way we will get health care in the US under any sort of control and care for everyone.

[BootinUp]

44. Fuck their policies, I am talking about a regulatory law.

Let them drop out and people go for the medicare like plan.

I have never seen such a bunch of woosies at this progressive site before.

[BootinUp]

36. Rated up.

nice response.

[sandnsea]

2. Then send everybody a card in the mail

and stop pretending that mandates equals full coverage.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[busymom]

6. Mandates = Full Coverage

Hillary's plan will not be employer based...it will be portable. She has said she will open up the congressional health plan to all americans as well. There will be concessions made to make sure that there are affordable plans for the middle class.

Let's be clear though...not having health insurance coverage right now IS bleeding the middle class dry. I personally know 2 people in financial ruin right now because of failed health insurancy policy in this country.....both middle class...and ridiculously sad stories that can only happen in America. Hillary will make SURE that the middle class don't get screwed.

Don't like mandates? What do you think social security and medicare are?

[Oregone]

8. Full Insurance Coverage != Health Care

Why is there a disconnect there?

We should be able to walk into a hospital, while being in a system, in which we have 100% confidence we wont be turned away or forced to pay a fortune later. Private insurers cannot provide that guarentee. We need health CARE, for everyone, not some stupid fuckn card in my wallet that is useless under a multitude of conditions in fine print.

[Uben]

20. Yeah, like mandates are unconstitutional

Auto insurance? Ever heard of that? Mandatory in most staes.

People make stuff up to try and make a point that is so weak it has to be supported by untruths. RED FLAG!

People who don't understand the healthcare crisis have no clue why a mandate is necessary. Ask any board of director of any county hospital in the nation! Uninsured people cost the rest of us billions and billions every year.

I have a private policy for myself and my wife. She is a 5 yr breast cancer survivor, and we pay $1200/mo for a $5000 deductible and 50% of the next $10,000 policy. It goes up every six months as much as they can legally raise it. We cannot cancel because we won't be able to get insurance any where else. We still have 10 yrs to Medicare. Clinton's plan will save us at least $600/mo.

I have paid out-of-pocket expenses over $120,000 in the past five years including premiums. This would throw most people into bankruptcy. Fortunately, I have the resources.

The reason those bills were so high? Uninsured people who require care they cannot, or will not, pay for. I broke my leg three years ago and had arthroscopic surgery. Cost? $40,000 ! My shitty insurance policy covered all but about $10,000. Thank god I had it!

I'm sorry, but you people who are against mandated coverage need to talk to some people in the health industry, not the insurance industry. I can think of no reasonable explanation why people would be against it except that they don't want to pay for their own healthcare costs. That is freeloading!

[lvx35]

12. How in the hell can you say that?

I hope you don't pretend to advocate for single payer:

Single payer: Everybody MUST pay the government in taxes for health care.
Hillaries system: Everybody MUST pay EITHER the government OR a private company for health care.

[KittyWampus]

26. stop spamming threads with that info. this is the fourth thread you've littered.

[no name no slogan]

5. Nobody wants insurance. They want COVERAGE

"health insurance" != coverage

[lvx35]

11. And the difference is? nt

[no name no slogan]

18. coverage == I get sick, I get taken care of

"insurance" means I pay "premiums" for a "policy" which may or may not cover an illness.

www.hr676.gov

[lvx35]

23. Who provides 'coverage'?

Either now or in your ideal solution?

[no name no slogan]

27. An expanded version of Medicare

www.hr676.org. Go read it for a summary.

http://www.house.gov/conyers/news_hr676_1.htm -- FAQ page from Rep. John Conyer's site


Replace the insurance industry with a SINGLE insurer. No more competing bureaucracies, coverage levels, and all that other crap that makes health care today a nightmare-- and that also jacks up the cost of medical care.

Since there's a single payer, there's no chosing "coverage" options or deductables, because everything is covered, and copays are set at a uniform rate (if there are any).

One single insurer. One large inefficient bureaucracy (which is STILL one hundred less than what we currently have).

[newmajority]

7. Mandatory corporate healthcare is NOT universal health care.

It's Romneycare.

[lvx35]

10. Nice statement. Too bad it has nothing to do with Hillary

She does not have mandatory corporate health care. There is a government option.

[rucky]

9. Funny how the definition of "universal" has shifted from single-payer

to some hybrid creature. Both plans are guilty, but I haven't heard Obama mislabeling his.

[Paulie]

13. Single Payer, not for profit universal health CARE

HR676

http://cms.dennis4president.com/images/stories/universalhealthcare.pdf

[Occam Bandage]

15. Then make it single-payer. The mandates are unenforceable.

[JackORoses]

16. Universal Healthcare is not Universal Health Insurance

There is a huge difference.

European Nations have Universal Healthcare, everyone is covered through their taxes.
This is not Universal Health Insurance.

Universal Health Insurance is totally dependent on 3rd Party Health Insurance companies who decide what they will charge for coverage.

Making it illegal not to pay for health insurance is not the same as providing healthcare to everyone. No matter what Hillary says.

[avrdream]

17. Quit yelling - they aren't listening.

Anyone looking at this rationally KNOWS we will have to pay up to get our universal health care.

From inside the system looking out, I can add that Hillary's (and John Edwards') plan is a good one to transition us to where we need to be.

[Solon]

22. Does anyone care about WHO gets the money in the first place?

Seriously, insurance COMPANIES have handled financing our health care system poorly, and that's putting it delicately, if coverage is going to be mandated, it better be through a public system, at least then there is public accountability to those who have to pay for it. Mandating that people pay for PRIVATE insurance is almost like taxation without representation.

[avrdream]

24. That is one of the beauties of Hillary's plan.

There is a government plan option. If enough people choose this as their option, we get rid of those FRIGGIN' insurance companies!

I believe that part of the plan is the key. She doesn't advertise it loudly but Hillary knows that this is how we as a country can transition away from private cover into public cover. Politically, all anyone has to say is that the people CHOSE that option instead of private insurance so the private insurance companies, who have already agreed to this (I'm looking ahead here), won't be able to grumble.

[Solon]

29. I actually know no details about that plan at all...

and that's a concern, if nothing else, if its supposed to be similar to HR 676, then I pretty much take back every doubt I had before. My problem is that its an unknown, completely, literally a sentence at the end of a summary, with absolutely no details, specifically of how its supposed to be finance, such as through FICA taxes, or how it would operate, especially when she mentioned it won't create a new bureaucracy.

[IsItJustMe]

25. Hate to say it, but I think you are absolutly correct, unless we just don't cover those people,

PERIOD.

[Emit]

30. How did 'we' pay for his motor cycle accident?

Didn't his docs and hospital go after him for payment? Or did he receive some sort of probono plan or free clinic?

When I had no insurance and required surgery when I was younger, I arranged a payment plan and paid $50 a month for two years to pay off the costs. If I was late, the hospital would call and threaten to take me to collections court with a mark on my credit.

[busymom]

32. He couldn't pay the bill.

He now has zero credit to speak of, but basically, the 60,000 went to collections and eventually was written off through the TX system...but not before ruining him financially as well. My brother earns enough that he could pay a small amount towards healthcare insurance of some sort (regardless of who runs it) but not enough to pay off that kind of dough.

Why do YOU think you pay so much money for a tylenol? A bandaid? A bandage? You are paying for those who can't pay for themselves.

[Emit]

45. There are a variety of reasons why medical costs continue to soar in the US

And the example you use is but only one -- and it happens to be the one that hospitals use as an excuse frequently, but it is one of many reasons on the list when you read about why, in general, medical care is so expensive with our failed system.

I am not disagreeing that it is not a factor -- I just was trying to point out that it is not the only factor, as you seem to be claiming. I was also just curious what the details were of your brother's case. Sounds like he not only added to the overall problem, in the manner as you point out, but suffered severely himself for his poor choices.

It's interesting that one of the frequent Repug criticisms against things such as health care for all and related 'social' programs is, "Why should we pay for those who can but won't --- that those who do make wiser choices shouldn't have to bear the burden of those who make 'poor' choices?" Perhaps if they realize they are already paying for the poor decisions of others in the long run, they would embrace having health care coverage for all rather than ridiculing it as socialism and the like.

[Gloria]

31. To repeat...When I lived in England they "stole money from my paycheck" and I was

incredibly happy about it! I got off the plane with my temporary work permit and they handed me a health card,...no questions asked! I was able to work several different, interesting jobs without having to worry about what insurance I may or may not have had when I changed employment! I went to the doctor when I was sick, a couple of blocks away from where I was living and had no wait and didn't even have to sign in. I then trotted over to the pharmacy and got a prescription for a couple of bucks. Later, I got a pair of glasses which cost me very little, certainly not what I was paying back in the states.

Gee, what a hardship, funding my health insurance for a few pounds a week!!

[BlackVelvet04]

33. What a bunch of children thinking they can get the government

to pay for their healthcare but when a mandatory plan is proposed they don't want the government telling them what to do.

It's typical of a bunch of spoiled brats who want what they want with no responsibility.

[annie1]

35. these ones?...

[BlackVelvet04]

39. Yep, those ones....

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[annie1]

34. NOT TO OBAMA FANS. HE WILL CHANGE EVERYTHING. HE'S MAGIC.

[Vinca]

38. I don't want universal health INSURANCE.

And I love the way all of the rising health costs are blamed on the uninsured. Somehow those billions and billions of insurance company profits aren't figuring into the equation. Has it ever occurred to you that many, many of the uninsured suffer untreated and even die and don't cost you a dime unless you send flowers to the funeral? It's frightening so many Democrats are eager to keep the corporate coffers overflowing. Keep that United Healthcare jet in the air. Neither candidate has a decent plan so it's useless to trash Obama's and try to puff Hilary's.

[BlackVelvet04]

40. Sometimes in life you have to take the best you can get....

you aren't going to get single payer health care in this country right now. There ARE a lot of people who would be damn glad to have the peace of mind of health insurance. It's not always just about you.

[Vinca]

42. Well, I would be damn glad to have some peace of mind, too.

But doesn't it make more sense to tell the insurance companies to go to hell, immediately cut 75% of the cost and go from there?

[BlackVelvet04]

47. Sweetie, there isn't a candidate out there who is

offering a single payer health care plan. I'm sorry, but it's just the truth. I don't disagree with you because I think insurance companies suck.

[Emit]

46. Well said, Vinca! n/t

[Renew Deal]

43. Universal Health Care does not equal Universal Health Insurance

Get over it.