What percentage of Americans are dumb enough not to want health care?

[anamandujano]

My guess is that because of the huge task it is getting this thing rolling, they will be the last group tackled.

By then, all of the poor, who have been living without it for so long, all of those who have been screwed by the insurance companies even though they paid faithfully but made the mistake of getting sick, and all others who see the wisdom of being prepared will be on board and breathing more easily.

By then, the laggards will probably need some sort of care and buy in. The prices will also be decent.

It's foolish to not begin a project of this sort because all the fine details have not been worked out.

Hillary knows what needs to be done and how to do it. She is motivated.

[DesertFlower]

1. tucker carlson -- you all know him.

he said that he "self insures".

[anamandujano]

3. He's got the big bucks but

his listeners don't.

My friend is well off and pays a ton, also has such a high deductible that she has been paying for everything for years.

Or maybe he means that he eats right and exercises. Someday, someday.

[DesertFlower]

6. my sister has been paying $300 a month

for a policy with a $10,000 deductible. it just went up to $320. she spends about $200 a year on doctors and medication, so she's thinking about dropping it. under hillary's plan she wouldn't be allowed to.

[Garbo 2004]

11. Hillary's plan is basically the Edwards' plan with a lower cost gov't plan that would compete with

& provide an alternative to private coverage. Edwards figured the gov't plan would be the wedge in the door, perhaps opening the way in the future for single payer. Since even Edwards didn't think single payer could get through Congress now, what would be better for your sister: a lower cost gov't plan (with subsidies/coverage for low & no income folks) as an alternative to what your sister has now or no coverage at all?

[DesertFlower]

20. the biggest problem with my sister's plan

is the $10,000 deductible.

[dkf]

2. Exactly. So why don't we fix everything else first

then figure out who is left.

Then we figure out why they are left and then we figure out what to do.

No need to talk about mandates yet.

[OzarkDem]

7. Because the health care system can't wait - its a farking crisis

Many hospitals are nearing collapse because of the high cost of uncompensated care.

You may want to let the system go to hell before you decide to fix it, but I prefer not to live in a country with a third world health care system.

Your argument is like saying "why fix all the bridges and highways? lets just let them fall apart and fix them as they go". Incredibly ignorant or dishonest, I'm not sure which.

[anamandujano]

13. I think the poster meant to work with/for the people who already

know they need care.

[OzarkDem]

4. The percentage that supports Obama

Every expert in the country has pointed out the flaws in his plan, yet the lemmings still head for the cliff....

[rodeodance]

15. After today and the posts on this board, I am beginning to think so!!

[Jed Dilligan]

5. I'm sure my life and health are among the "fine details"

that will left out. Sorry, next?

[BootinUp]

8. I think she said it was 20% of the uninsured this morning

IOW, she said that 20% of 47 million can afford Healthcare at todays high cost.

[BlackVelvet04]

9. I don't know but I would venture to guess

that most of them post on D.U.

[eridani]

10. Most people will never get expensively sick

Just like they will never have house fires. That's why the risk should be pooled and paid for by everybody.

[sandnsea]

12. You're actually making Obama's case

People will buy it if the Prices Are Decent. No need to mandate people in before we have all the details worked out because cost is the problem, not desire.

He introduced a constitutional amendment to make Health Care A Right in Illinois. THAT is motivation.

[anamandujano]

16. You're wrong. Many of the young think that they are invincible and

don't forsee any health problems. Then they get sick or have an accident.

I'm not going to argue the finer points of the mandate. Hilary can do that. She knows the issue better than anyone, including Obama.

There may be some who can afford it but choose not to have it until they need it. Obama said something about some kind of penalty for those "gaming the system." Maybe you can walk us through that one.

[sandnsea]

18. They pay for auto insurance

and not because it's mandated because 25% of drivers aren't insured. They pay it because they recognize the expense of the loss if they have an accident which is the same reason they'll pay a fair price for health insurance.

NO, she does not know the issue better than anyone. Her plan in 1993 failed because it was too complicated to understand. Kerry wrote SCHIP and Kennedy and Hatch pushed it through Congress. Obama was writing health care legislation in Illinois while Hillary was telling us that Bill was providing spiritual counsel to Monica Lewinsky.

Any health care system will have people who aren't paying, like the mandated programs we have currently. How we choose to encourage them to make a health care decision is open for discussion, but it shouldn't include taking money away from them that they may need to unusual living circumstances that we haven't considered.

[anamandujano]

22. Are you trying to make the case

that those that do pay car insurance "because they recognize the expense," don't have the same wisdom when it comes to heath care?

Part of the plan is bringing down the costs to be affordable.

Leaving aside your comments on the Repuke impeachment, the MSM brainwashed everyone about her plan being too hard to understand. I was watching when they brought out huge charts showing the levels of bureaucracy.

They trotted out the same type of charts to explain why NORAD couldn't stop the jets on 9/11. It was too hard. That was OK though.

[sandnsea]

25. Yea, that's why they'll pay for it

Obama's plan will bring costs down too. People will pay for it when they can afford it.

I have been a Democrat all my life, I have believed in universal health care all my adult life. I was on the Dean's List in college, I'm not stupid. Hillary's plan was confusing. There was no right wing game about it. Just like it's not a right wing game that low income people will freak out over being forced to pay for insurance they can't afford because Hillary hasn't given any true details on the price and only offers subsidized TAX CREDITS.

[anamandujano]

27. If you were listening you'd know that the tax credits were just

for those who would be able to work it that way.

The people who really can't afford it will be brought in, most likely first, like the children were.

Maybe her plan was hard to understand for those who are not familiar with how a system like that needs to be designed (like me, for instance.) It doesn't really matter if you understand the nuts and bolts if it works, or at least begins to work. Nobody thinks it's going to come out perfect straight out of the box.

"There was no right wing game about it."

If it were not threatening the profits of the middle men, they would not have spent 300 million to take her down. The good thing now is that people are more aware of the bill of goods the insurance companies sold them. That should help.


"Obama's plan will bring costs down too. People will pay for it when they can afford it."

What happens if they need care before Obama gets his costs down? You know it's going to take awhile, with the lackadaisical approach that he is taking. Essentially we will have what we have now, a crisis, chaos, too many falling through the cracks.

[sandnsea]

29. "most likely" won't "come out perfect"

EXACTLY. That's why Obama doesn't start off with mandates on a system when we don't know the affects on every segment of society. His is the right way to make sure everyone is brought in and no one is made homeless in the process.

Oregon already has a plan similar to what Obama is proposing. It actually won't take that long to get going once people understand exactly what he is trying to accomplish.

When he talks about families earning less than $75,000 a year as being the middle class who need the tax breaks, that's a BIG signal to all of us working peole that he knows we have different economic circumstances than the professional class.

He'll get health care done because he can talk to the people who need to get behind him on the issue and won't shove mandates and garnishments at people before they even know what the benefit is.

[anamandujano]

32. You Obama folks spread the faith really thick. How can you spell

out details for him, when he doesn't spell them out for you?

"He'll get health care done because he can talk to the people who need to get behind him on the issue"

We have reason to fear who he will be talking to. I found this comment at the end of an article linked on another thread.

We will have to wait a long time for the press or the Obama campaign to apologize for anything- Healthcare is one of the cornerstones of Hillary Clinton's campaign. Given the Paul Krugman assessment of Obama's plan vs. Clinton's it's no wonder their Obama people had to use smear tactics. Having Robert Gibbs, Obama's communications director, one of those responsible for the Howard Dean/Osama bin Laden face morph ad, do we wonder that Obama's people have managed to stay below the radar for a whole host of nasty tricks

[sandnsea]

34. The plan is spelled out

which I know because I bothered to read it.

And the only one that consistently resorts to smears when they can't argue the facts are the Obama-haters. I think everybody agrees the Osama ad was over the top and a huge mistake which is why it was taken down immediately. Obama hasn't done anything like it so it's really not an issue.

[anamandujano]

35. "Obama hasn't done anything like it so it's really not an issue."

Hello, Harry & Louise redux.

[sandnsea]

36. I've been complaining about forced premiums

that people can't afford for months. That's reality, not a right wing talking point. And do you not get political flyers?? Half of them have a couple sitting at the kitchen table. This is just more distortions from the Clinton campaign. It's all they do, it's all they've done since the campaign started. They don't have anything to run on so all they do is lie and smear Obama.

[anamandujano]

38. It certainly is a right wing talking point that there will be forced

premiums that people can't afford. The whole thing is about affordability.

The guy he has working for him is a smear artist. He created that image to call up Harry and Louise. Someone pointed out in another thread that by doing so Obama has pretty much joined the insurance companies in trying to kill universal health care.

Good night.

[sandnsea]

39. If you have to wait for a tax credit

You're going to be mandated to pay an insurance premium and a lot of people aren't going to be able to afford it. They're already seeing that in Massachusetts. It's just reality.

Obama is offering universal health care, not trying to kill it. He's the one who includes several mechanisms to control and regulate health insurance.

Most of Obama's voters wouldn't even know who the hell Harry and Louise were. You'd really have to be a huge political activist and more of the age of boomers to possibly get it. It's just another sleezy smear that her shady campaign came up with.

[anamandujano]

40. I agree that most Obama voters

don't know which end is up but there are more people in the country than them. The disinformation of Harry and Louise which worked so well in the past is being revisited, i.e. right wing talking points disseminated by a so-called democrat.

[sandnsea]

41. Respectful dissenting opinions

cannot be repeatedly dismissed as "right wing talking points". The reason all those low income voters keep voting against their own interests is because the ivory tower elites keep poopooing their concerns and telling them that the politicians in DC know best. You cannot pass a mandate telling people, who can't even pay the bills they've got, to agree to an unknown health premium. It won't work and there's no talking point to it. And there's no nefarious strategy to a couple sitting at the kitchen table either. The only disinformation in this campaign keeps coming from the Clintons.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

14. What percentage of DUers are dumb enough to fall for the OP's strawman?

Sadly, quite a few, as evidenced by the responses to this thread.

BTW, one of those "fine details" that "have not been worked out" is the enforcement mechanism of this little insurance boondoggle.

That's what tripped Sen. Clinton up on Stephanopoulus this morning.

[anamandujano]

17. strawman--"a weak or sham argument set up to be easily refuted"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/strawman

So go ahead and easily refute it and while you're at it, tell us what Obama meant when he spoke of dealing with those who are "gaming the system."

[mrreowwr_kittty]

19. Let's start with the Strawpeople who are "dumb enough to not want healthcare" and work from there.

As for Obama, I think his plan sucks ass too. I want single payer universal with NO INSURANCE COMPANIES INVOLVED. You'll be amazed at how quickly people are no longer "laggards" or "gaming the system" when that happens.

[anamandujano]

21. Others have made the case better than I.

With everybody in, pooling resources, large number negotiating cost, showing them we mean business, we have a chance.

BTW, both candidates know better than we do that there is a significant number who won't play ball. You can substitute another word for "dumb" if you want but it all comes back to the same problem.

I'm with you, NO INSURANCE COMPANIES INVOLVED, but do you think we can go from where we are to there, (think of the bloody battle it will involve and the length of time) without putting in a beginner version?

[leftofthedial]

23. 25%

Hillary knows how the insurance companies want her to do it anyway.

[anamandujano]

24. Could you explain?

Thanks in advance.

[leftofthedial]

28. 25% of murkans are bone stupid

and if elected, Hillary will give us whatever health care plan the insurance companies want us to have

[anamandujano]

30. On what do you base the statement

that Hillary will do what the insurance companies want?

Do you not realize that they spent serious money to defeat her last time around and will spend more if she is elected?

[leftofthedial]

42. do you know which candidate FROM BOTH PARTIES

the insurance industry has donated the most money to so far?

[LadyVT]

26. It's 15 million people.

[rodeodance]

31. is that the same people who are omitted from Obama' health plan?

[Hill_YesWeWill]

33. I don't know, but this argument is not going to win people over, you need to learn to

frame the discussion in a different way, less mean, insulting & accusatory, believe it or not, that turns people off

Hillary '08

[anamandujano]

37. I've stumbled across several of your posts tonight.

Most of them are some sort of criticism of Hillary supporters or agreeing with Obama supporters. Because you claim to be for Hillary, it supposedly gives you some sort of moral edge or a greater weight to your statements.

I don't believe I was being "mean, insulting & accusatory" by asking for an estimate of a faceless and nameless entity i.e., those that insist they don't want health insurance.

I actually think everyone wants it and this group, whose number is close to zero, is being used to confuse the issue.