The analyst on Morning Joe said the youth attracted to Obama are more willing to give in to Repubs

[mtnsnake]

than the more "established" Democrats are. He said that the more established Democrats want a fighter and they don't want to give in to Republicans one iota. It was the guy with the little beard, I forget his name, but he's always on there.

He implied that the youth haven't been involved long enough to feel the pain and suffering that the more established Democrats have felt at the hands of the Repukes for such a long time.

I know one thing. This established Democrat isn't willing to give one fucking inch to any asshole Republicans. :mad:

How about you? Are you willing to give in to them, even an inch, or would you rather fight?

[sunonmars]

1. and its whats bothering the shit out of me

I am not going to give an inch either.

[mtnsnake]

8. "I am not going to give an inch"

Thank you! Neither am I, as I already said up above.

Fuck Republicans. They had their fun. Now it's our turn.

[Jamastiene]

2. This scenario is what I am most afraid will happen:

Young people voting for Obama in the Primaries and then switching to the Republican nominee in the General election. Dems will be sunk if that happens and it IS a possibility. :(

[sunonmars]

4. It is why Democratic primary's should ONLY be Democrats registered

Independents get their choice at the GE.

[redwitch]

13. Why would they do that???

That makes no sense to me, please explain.

[Jamastiene]

38. You mean to tell me that you don't honestly think

that the GOP would use the youth vote to get Obama in as the candidate then persuade the same people to vote for their candidate in the GE? You don't think they are capable of such deceit? I wouldn't put anything past them at this point.

[redwitch]

51. I wouldn't put anything past the GOP, but

young people aren't so easily bought and sold that they will switch from Obama to McCain or Romney. The GOP candidates offer nothing to young people except more of the same.

[KittyWampus]

22. Young people are inspired by Obama and his message of Change and Unity. WHY would they votee'

for McCain?

On it's face, it's absurd.

[rodeodance]

30. yeah yeah--we are starting to get an idea of his illusive Unity message!!

[avaistheone1]

33. These kids just want to have fun.

The party means "to party" to them.

How many of these young people are informed on any of the issues? Very few from what I can see.
They are motivated by the cult of personality, nothing else.

[rodeodance]

36. I call it the Glitter effect--

[avaistheone1]

48. Yuppers. All sizzle and no steak.

[rodeodance]

61. ha --great analogy

[Jamastiene]

39. We shall see.

It looks like that is EXACTLY what is happening already. Why else would Obama appeal to so many Republicans?

[DURHAM D]

24. He will keep the youth vote

It is senior citizens, gay folk and friends, middle class women and working class families that have no candidate.

And no party.

[Jamastiene]

69. I'm not so sure about the youth vote honestly,

but Obama's really a "Uniter," isn't he? He sure didn't mind digging Raygun up and giving him a big ol' kiss then running to the ex-gay movement and asking for a "cure" for it, did he?

Not to mention some other less "hot button issue" comments he has made such as his wondering aloud if it is even worth it to treat elderly patients. That is still resonating in my mind as undemocratic as hell. The man gives me the creeps beyond measure and the young people will do whatever their Republican masters tell them to do, imo.

[Skidmore]

Wow. You really have so little faith in our young people as that?

You must think they are stupid. How condescending can you get?

[Jamastiene]

66. Stick around, say more stupid shit to me, and find out.

If they earn it, they earn it. And I would say they have earned the title of gullible enough to fall for empty words and promises from someone who will do nothing for this country. Reagan was not great and this lesbian will never forget being raped by the ex-gay movement. There will be no forgiveness for Obama's pandering nor will there be no forgiveness for people knowingly following him after that.

Quick. Pucker up. I think there are lots of right wing homophobes in your midst. Don't forget to follow your leader and kiss their asses some more.

[ryanmuegge]

49. They're trying to shape process again.

[Windy]

52. OH please, these "kids" are smarter than there parents. Talk to them sometime

They will not turn over to the republicans. They are engaged because they have seen the mess Bush has made of this country. They are against religious fundamentalism...

What you hillary supporters need to worry about is that they will stay home if its not obama. She will not get the youth vote like Obama will.

That is a fact.

[Jamastiene]

67. The only thing they were engaged in before Obama

was Britney Spears and constant propaganda in the school from none other than the Bush administration. Don't be so sure. I don't trust them any more than I trust out and out Republicans.

[AX10]

68. I believe than mayn Repubs accross the board have done this.

[Jamastiene]

70. They'll do what their lock step leaders tell them to do.

They eat up propaganda for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. I don't trust this situation as far as I can throw it.

[liberalnurse]

3. Joe is suffering from delusions of republican grandeur....

It is terminal............

[newmajority]

6. He's not the only one suffering from delusions

Just look at some of the idiocy on display in this thread :eyes:

[mtnsnake]

12. Thats precious coming from a supposed Obama supporter. Hey if you wanna give in, knock yourself out!

[flyarm]

5. and the guy is right!!

TIME- video of Obama Sun. mocking Edwards

http://thepage.time.com/2008/02/03/obama-forgets-edward... /
Uses old gibe about debate answer Sunday to mock former rival whose supporters he is supposed to be courting.
What a nice touch- mocking Edwards for his debate admission that his compassion for the poor is also his weakness.

Obama is making my decisions for me..

[rodeodance]

10. yes, Obama does it all by himself--gawd knows the media won't critique him--its

up to the voters to keep a sharp eye

[Renew Deal]

7. I don't think they want to give in.

They want to get shit done.

There was an article about this the other day. The youth are used to finding solutions. They see Obama as someone who can get things done.

[sunonmars]

11. They'll be sorely disappointed not to mention betrayed

[Renew Deal]

17. Should he stop offering false hope?

[miceelf]

18. get shit done

Yeah, and actually that was the main point of the analyst (also forget his name). Young people are more motivated to get things done and less by trying to get revenge on republicans.

it's not this "give in" crap that people keeping spinning it as.

And no one gave in to republicans more than Bill Clinton. Yes, he beat them in elections, but he also took a lot of their policies and enacted them. he had more success in winning elections than in moving the government (or even public opinion) in a liberal direction.

[pampango]

9. I don't know if this guy knows what he is talking about, but it would be ironic.

When I was young, we accused the older voters of compromising their ideals to accommodate the "real world" and work together with those with whom you didn't agree.

Now the public perception, if not the reality, is that the young, while still I suppose "idealistic", are more willing to compromise than older voters who have experienced enough of the "real world".

Maybe the common thread is that youth always do whatever most irritates older folks (of which I am now one). :)

We will all approach governing and partisan politics in our own way, but the young will always be less "experienced" than we are.

[Armstead]

14. The Clintons have been giving in to the GOP for years

This meme that Hillary is a fighter while Obama is a collaborationist is very misleading.

Why have the GOP been able to advance their agenda while Democrats have flailed and been basically impotent for the last 20 years?

Why did Bill Clinton cave on such fundamental matters as Welfare Reform and the Telcomm Act of 1996? Why did the Clintons enable GW inthe debate over the Invasion of Iraq?

The only fights Clintons have engaged the GOP on are on personal matters and empty partisanship.

[mtnsnake]

23. Yeah, that's why the GOP loves the Clintons so much (snicker)

[KittyWampus]

26. The NeoCons like Bush sure do. Except for the wealthy 1%, GOP voters are suckers

[miceelf]

27. why the GOP hates the clintons

They hate the clintons because Bill won a couple of elections and had personal behavior they didn't like.

They also hate Bill because one of the ways he won was by coopting GOP policies.

[madrchsod]

15. no one watches morning joe.....

his viewership is below 200,000 at any given time. the the big 3 broadcast morning shows has around ten million at any given time.

oh yes another piece of talking crap who claims the youth of america can`t be trusted...

[mtnsnake]

19. Half this place watches it, even me if I'm channel surfing before heading out to work

Hey, it sucks that there's no other alternative to it, but if we fight against Republicans, instead of give in to them, maybe we'll have something better to watch, come this time next year.

[BootinUp]

16. It amazes me how the many on the left have dropped the spineless meme

to support Obama. Personally I was always of the opinion that the netroots rhetoric like Edwards adopted was not going to last, but the Obama rhetoric is on the other end of the scale. I never expected folks around here to adopt his hope stuff so quickly.

I think Obama is a weaker GE candidate, and he is making up for that by going for independents very agressively with his rhetoric of hope and change. His economic policies are to the right of Hillary's and less progressive, just like Krugman says.

In 2008 we have the repukes by the balls and we do not need to make nice to win this election. It will cost us a mandate for real progressive changes. There will be too much compromise in Obamas mandate leading to mushy reform.

[mtnsnake]

25. "In 2008 we have the repukes by the balls and we do not need to make nice to win this election"

No wonder you're one of my favorite DU'ers! :thumbsup:

[Armstead]

35. I like you, but I think the Clintons embody spinelessness

I tend to think Obama is a little too conciliatory also. But the Clintons embody a meaningless partisanship in which personal animosity replaced substance. The Clintons fought hard to protect their own interests, but they spinelessly collaborated with the CONservatives on more fundamental matters of policy.

Clinton's specialty as president was triangulation. As a result we got an awful version of Welfare Reform, Telcom deregulation, "free trade" that subverts politics and civil society, etc. And since then, we had the Clintons enabling Bush's War In Iraq, and a general level of strategic spinelessness from the Democratic Party.

[BootinUp]

44. 2 short points in response

Hillary is not Bill. There have been stories that revealed her opposition to Bills trade policies for instance. There have been stories about how Bill pressured her on the healthcare fight in the 90's to give up on certain progressive aspects of it. If you really look at her I think you would come to the conclusion that her core beliefs do not match Bills 100 percent at all.

Then I would point out that 2008 is a time much riper for progressive movement than 1992, and I think you would have to agree. A politician IS constrained by the times, the mood, recent political history etc. Or put another way, the opportunities are different depending on the times.

[Armstead]

56. I agree that 2008 is much riper for progressive change

That's why I believe we need a new start and Democrats really need to be the party of change, complete with a new face representing it.

I hope you're right about Hillary if she gets the nomination and victory. I would be thrilled to be pleasantly surprised by a gutsy Presdient Hillary leading the charge for meaningful progressive reform.

However I keep thinking of the old adage about leopards and spots.

[NCarolinawoman]

45. E.J. Dionne says that Obama has a pattern of moving to the right to gain consensus.

He says this started back at Harvard when he was running to be President of the Law Review. Obama was running against someone to the left of him, so he compromised and courted the conservatives and that is how he won the position.

Dionne (did I spell that right?) was on that Saturday Tim Russert show. What he said was kind of an eye-opener--a clarifier for me.

[Dogmudgeon]

54. Rhetoric dropped includes:

"The MSM is controlled by 5 or 6 big corporations!"

"The leaders of the Democratic Party are traitors!"

"The MSM control the news!"

"Candidates who raise lots of money are corrupt!"

"Neo-Cons are fascists who use mass psychology to control people!"

"The Superbowl is a sexist homoerotic display of violence and increases rape!"

"All polls are bullshit!"

"All polls are rigged!"

"No compromise with Republicans!"

"Bipartisanship is a trick to get us to go easy on the Republicans!"

And I think I missed a few.

--p!

[H2O Man]

20. I was watching,

and I think that what he said was a bit different than your interpretation of it. Many of the younger generation are not as invested in the democrat vs republican hostility that has damaged our nation. They are more willing to try to work together to find solutions.

The truth is that each and every democratic candidate from this primary season would work together with republicans to accomplish their goals. DUers who believe that there is some candidate who will "fight" all republicans do not have a realistic view of how Washington works.

[madrchsod]

28. we have had 7 going on 8 years

of absolute one party rule...i do not want 4-8 years another

[KittyWampus]

29. Now that observation makes sense. Because both I've heard BOTH Clintons and O. talk

about working with the GOP. Because that's how politics work in the real world.

[mtnsnake]

31. It's about the same as what I said, PLUS, he added that the more established Dems would rather fight

the Republicans than try to reach out to them.

Thanks for the help, though. :)

[H2O Man]

32. One of the things

that I think is important is that we appreciate that Newt Gingrich & Co were looking to do something other than just get a temporary republican majority in Congress. That's what they talked about publicly, but their goal was actually far worse. Their intention was to destroy the legislative branch as a "seperate but equal" part of the federal government. This allows for the radical move that went well beyond Schlesinger's "imperial presidency," and has created the revolutionary executive branch. We see Dick Cheney being not only disrespectful of democrats in congress, but distainful of Congress as an institution.

There are several issues that democrats must strongly oppose the rigid republican party positions on, and some republicans who must be opposed (and prosecuted) on their ever stance. But we have to consider the best options for making Congress live up to its responsibilities. I think the example of the Biden attempt to slow the Bush-Cheney rush to war; in "Hubris," Isikoff & Corn document how Biden was working with democrats and republicans, and was undercut by a democrat.

We probably will be subjected to some ugly republican lies in the debate on how to end the war this summer and fall. But when either Clinton or Obama takes office in '09, they will need to be able to harness the best in both parties in order to try to resolve the terrible mess this administration has created.

[mtnsnake]

42. It can work like that, yes, but this reaching out to Republicans during a Dem Primary irritates me

to no fucking end. I just do not want to listen to that kind of rhetoric, especially after what they've done to us and especially because anyone with a brain knows that it's just empty rhetoric geared at attracting Independents and moderate Republicans. In a general election, let him talk all he wants about reaching out to them if he thinks it can help him win (although I don't think he should do it then, either), but there is no need to torture Democrats with that kind of nonsense during our Primary.

[TacticalPeek]

53. Maybe the last seven years changes one's view of "how Washington works"?

If the right takes three steps and we take only one when it's 'our turn', then three steps to the right, then one etc., pretty soon this republic thing will be done.

Part of the reason the young are 'not invested in the democrat vs republican hostility' might be that they are not invested in the nitty gritty of the issues - through their own lack of experience of them and our society's lack of civics education etc. and the abysmal MSM and on and on.

I'm not concerned that our candidates and officials work with R's to solve problems, but I am very concerned that they not start from a pre-compromised position. I worry that not being invested in the "hostility" means not being invested in the struggle. This ain't a video game.

:patriot:

[EFerrari]

21. That's just a weird comparison. The two groups have different

aims. I don't think younger voters think about Republicans as much as voters who have gone more rounds with them.

[DURHAM D]

34. I don't think Obama supporters are thinking about anything beyond

their hero winning the W.H. They don't have a political agenda other than change. This is just a popularity contest for them.

They think if Obama is elected that he can fix things all by himself - although they have no idea what it is they might want him to fix.

The reason they embrace the idea that it is good to be liked by Repubs and independents is so he can win the prize. A discussion about what comes after with regard to those same non-Dem supporters causes their eyes to glaze over. They aren't really interested in policy.

I had an Obama supporter tell me the other night that he hopes Obama fixes things so that he can text in his vote in the future.

[EFerrari]

41. That's how Americans elect presidents. Both camps do that.

The texting comment is funny. :)

[Bluerthanblue]

59. well- this Obama supporter has been around the block a

few times, and I never "text".

I think Obama offers us an opportunity to look at ISSUES- not at "them"- you want to waste you life on earth hating your perceived 'flip-side'- then go for it. I don't have that much time left, and I hope to leave my children (one of whom is voting in his second GE Kerry/Edwards last time Obama/? this time) a chance to focus some energy, money, enthusiasm- etc on really fixing some of the shit that is wrong with this country.

Hillary runs on her ability to fight with the republicans- Obama is running on the platform of not looking at the world as "them vs. us" but US- he doesn't speak in the first-person singular- he speaks, thinks, and acts in the first person PLURAL- this isn't an ego trip- this is a WE have to find a way to work together as a people or fall apart as a nation trip.

Obama knows he can't fix things all by himself- listen to him if you have the ability to take your blinders off- He admits he isn't an expert at everything, and as soon as the words leave his lips,'Hillary supporters' scream- "he doesn't know enough"- I'd much rather have a leader who knew their limits, and who has the humility, and courage to admit them- instead of someone who is afraid to show any real human frailties- for fear that if they aren't perceived as 'perfect'- than they are not "good-enough". People stuck in this trap, require others to live up to their unrealistic expectations, and when they can't - they are discarded.

This election isn't just about "our winning"- The Dem's COULD win this election, and lose the country. In my 50yrs of life, I have never seen our country so close to imploding. Maybe that is what must happen- but I'm not interested in making that any easier. If we cannot bridge the divide- we will drown. If you cannot see that- you are blind- or in denial.

rant-rant-rant not sure I'm done, but I'm stopping.

peace~

[Indenturedebtor]

60. Oh Please

The fact is that Obama is pulling in more young voters because we are more interested in resolving our problems than in winning or losing some age old family feud.

It may not work but many Obama supporters believe as he says that the problems are too great to continue our normal political triangulation, back biting, and back room dealing. If we are going to fix things we need to work together with all parts of our nation.

Obama is connecting with VOTERS, and that's what matters. A super popular president has a much better shot at getting a majority in congress, and with or without one has a much better chance at using the bully pulpit to galvanize public opinion.

I'm sure if I searched I'd have seen most of you haters saying something to the effect that their policies aren't that different... they arent. But he has the power to be a great leader! This country needs a leader who inspires. We need someone who can sell our ideas to the other 50% of the country and get us all on the same page.

But you know I'm sure that insulting the youth voters is a good tactic guys. Just like insulting the Pukes in political debates has worked so well for us to get power and push our agenda, insulting an entire swath of the population is going to go a long way towards making things happen. What good does it do your cause? We all face the same dangers, no matter how/why we're here to work with you to solve our problems you should be happy we're here.

You may not be fortunate enough to like everyone that you work with, but dammit you still have to work with them. The country is SICK AND TIRED of our politicians jockeying for position and money, putting on a spectacle while they work together in backrooms to sell us up the river to corporations. In the words of Shakespeare "Methinks thou dost protest too much."

And for the Spaghetti Monsters sake, you all know that HRC is a DLC triangulator. Just because she says that "I'll be a fighter in Washington" she hasn't done much fighting to stop the IWR, to fillibuster conservative judges, to protect our middle class from the ravages of trade deals, etc. She is the least progressive of all of our candidates. Both her voting record and her campaign contributions scream that fact.

[UALRBSofL]

37. Just another Scarborough hinch mob mentality

The youth are the ones feeling the sting of the economy and they know what the republicans are about. They will not vote for a republican.

[Colobo]

40. That's idiotic. Those of us that are attracted to Obama

are attracted to him because we like his PROGRESSIVE ideals.

[mtnsnake]

43. I believe there are lots of Obama supporters as you describe

but the guy did make a good point about many of his other supporters.

If Obama wins the Primary, I'll gladly support him, but not because I want him to reach out to Republicans. That part I don't like.

[robbedvoter]

46. Nope. I am irrevocably "established" No giving in here.

[mtnsnake]

50. Thank you

I am not at all surprised you won't give in to them :thumbsup:

[elixir]

47. Obama's base of youthful voters is new and untested. How do we know they'll turn out?

[Renew Deal]

55. The current group has failed us, so let's give them a shot.

[UALRBSofL]

57. Scarborough is from my home town

And let me tell you he royally hates the democratic party. He was so up Bush's butt in 2000 thats how he got his rise in popularity. He has never said a nice thing about democrats, and, he would say anything to get publicity. I wouldn't trust him any further than I could throw him.

[mtnsnake]

58. It's good if they turn out for the Primary, but it's essential that they turn out for the General

Election, whether it's him or Hillary who is the nominee.

[Straight Shooter]

62. You know how it is. A Dem reaches out their hand to a Repub, and it gets bitten off.

Those Repubs are relentless in their desire to destroy us.

[Forkboy]

63. After watching Dems my age (40) and older continually give in I'm hard pressed to knock the youngins

We have a group that might do something I don't like against a group that already has.

[mtnsnake]

64. Whoa. I don't see Democrats 40 and older giving in. I see some politicians 40 and older giviing in

like Nancy Pelosi for starters. The voters though? No way, not the ones who have been around a while, at least.

[Forkboy]

65. In my experience the more comfortable one gets the more they're willing to give up to maintain that

I don't see that as confined to any specific group, but humans as a whole. I find younger people to be more resolute, more hungry to see change that benefits all, not just one small group or themselves singularly. Every age group can bring something important to the table, and I see no need to criticize one or the other as not being good enough somehow because of the age group they're in.