JOE WILSON!!!!! "The Real Hillary I Know -- and the Unreal Obama" FANTASTIC article!!

[in_cog_ni_to]

The Real Hillary I Know -- and the Unreal Obama

<snip>
A number of us, like then Illinois state senator Obama, opposed the second Gulf War. My own opposition from the beginning has been well documented. I fought the fight in the arena itself, Washington DC, against a ruthless administration and its supporters while the senator's opposition came from a far distance and carried no risk, given that he represented in Springfield, Illinois the district encompassing the University of Chicago. As an obscure but safe provincial political figure, he never was granted access to the distorted intelligence that was used to drive the Congress and the media. When I looked to the left or to the right for support, I never saw the state senator. In fact, I never heard of Barack Obama until he announced his intention to run for the Senate in the 2006 election.

After he came to Washington, Obama's views were thoroughly conventional and even timid. In 2004, he said about the 2002 congressional Authorization for the Use of Military Force: "I'm not privy to Senate intelligence reports. What would I have done? I don't know." On Iraq-related votes in the Senate, Obama's record identically matches Senator Clinton's--with the exception that Senator Clinton voted against the confirmation of General George Casey as Army chief of staff. Obama's vote was typically passive.

In the run up to the war and thereafter, I was in frequent discussions with senior Democrats in Washington, including Senator Clinton, and I was keenly aware of her demand for the full exercise of international diplomacy and allowing the weapons inspectors to complete their mission. Many of the most prominent early opponents of the war, including former General Wes Clark and former ambassador to the United National Richard Holbrooke support Senator Clinton for President, as do I. We do so because we know that she has the experience and the judgment that comes from having been in the arena for her entire adult life--and from close personal participation with her in the conduct of U.S. foreign policy. And we have trust in her to end the war in Iraq in the most responsible way, consistent with our national security interests.

We know that she has won and lost but always fought for her beliefs, which are widely shared within the Democratic Party. The battles she had been in have been fierce--and the battles in the future will be no less intense--and she has proven her steadfastness and is still standing. She does not have a cowardly record of voting "present" when confronted with difficult issues. She does not claim "intuition" as the basis of the most dangerous and serious decision-making. What she has is deep and vital experience, more important than ever in restoring our country's place in the world.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joe-wilson/the-real-hillary-i-know-_b_77878.html

[bidenista]

1. k&r

[liberalnurse]

109. Joe Wilson is incredibly insightful....

Thank You Joe Wilson. Let me shake your hand.O8)

[ElsewheresDaughter]

298. indeed he is

[alllyingwhores]

301. I always liked what Wilson had to say--although...

If Wilson's argument is that Clinton was fed distorted intelligence and that is why she voted to allow the Idiot to invade Iraq "As an obscure but safe provincial political figure, he never was granted access to the distorted intelligence (unlike Clinton) that was used to drive the Congress and the media"

Then, why in the fuck doesn't she use that argument? Seriously, I thought that was the obvious plausible argument for both Clinton and Edwards.

Instead, she is saying stupid shit like "I trusted that the President wasn't already planning to invade"

It makes you wonder what the real truth is.

[elehhhhna]

312. he's obviously cia

[RaleighNCDUer]

319. So insightful that he is backing the candidate that was duped by the

same information that he was disputing, over the candidate that was outside the loop but saw HIM as more believable than the president.

WTF?

[Bullet1987]

2. The Clinton supporters are getting desperate trying to knock

Obama down a level or two before MEGA Tuesday!!

[in_cog_ni_to]

4. It's an article that just so happens to be from one of DU's GREATEST heroes! Not to mention

Wes Clark and Richard Holbrook...who BOTH support her! If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. Obama's attacks and the Attacks of his supporters on Hillary, WILL NOT go unanswered. Sorry. You wanna play dirty? You got it!

[jasmine621]

35. I don't call this "playing dirty" It's playing smart, honest, and factual. nt

[in_cog_ni_to]

57. Factual? Now that is laughable.

When you people post articles from Dick Morris, The National Review, and Bill Kristol? ALL RW hacks? You actually want us to believe you're all smart, fair and factual???!@#$^&* :rofl::rofl::rofl: That's too funny for words.


National Review Online
Columns by William F. Buckley Jr., Rich Lowry, Jonah Goldberg, Kate O'Beirne, Ben Domenech, Ponnuru, O'Sullivan, George, Kopel, Kudlow, Moore, Podhoretz, ...

GIVE ME A BREAK!:rofl: We know who we're dealing with with you people. We know who you are. You're fooling no one. I'm SERIES!!!11!!11!!1111!

[libbygurl]

64. Oops, I may be wrong, but jasmine621 seems to be saying the post is positive? nt

[in_cog_ni_to]

71. Ah, crap! SORRY Jasmine621! Disregard my post!

:hi:

[orleans]

282. oh my god! I'M SO CONFUSED!!!

so tonight i come home, thinking "well, i guess i'm voting for obama."

BUT NOW I'M BACK IN MY CORNER OF DOUBT AND CONFUSION! thanks to you and joe wilson (who i adore btw)

damn! never has making a decision to vote been more difficult for me.

(i would have voted for gore. then kucinich. edwards? well, i have "issues" with him as well.)

I CAN'T DECIDE!! i've even considered not voting in the primary.

damn.

(and thanks for posting this piece. i really never look on huffpo)

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[Hekate]

296. I know what you mean. I got all excited & got the Obama yard sign, & now I'm gnawing my fingernails

Hillary does have the experience and an admirable record of public service. I got pissed at The Clintons over dragging race into it, and a couple of other dirty tricks. But the fact is, she could very well be an excellent president -- especially when you consider the hellacious mess that Bush is leaving behind.

I would not be terminally upset if Hillary Clinton gets the nom instead of Barack Obama. I just wish Joe Wilson had spoken up earlier.

Hekate

[Hutzpa]

327. So easily Bought and sold for 5 cents,

how gullible can people become.

This is Clinton machine at its best, you can cry, scream, kick and punch,
the voters knows more than you guys tend to give them credit for.

Ay Caramba!

bwahahaha!




:hide: :rofl:

[Hekate]

332. 'Scuse me?

[burgundy floppy hat]

85. I'm SERIES!!!11!!11!!1111! really makes your argument, boy, you troll from, what, 1988?

And even then, stupid.

wow, genius at work...

[in_cog_ni_to]

87. LOL

:rofl::rofl: Yeah...you're a real genius yourself.

[emilyg]

113. It is. Thank you.

[katty]

139. yes, agree, it is a fair and substantial comment by Wilson

[MoonRiver]

44. Obama cult members are simply too brainwashed to hear anything

but their messiah's voice lulling them into a trance like stupor!

And just like every other effective cult leader he has his cadre of worshiping groupies. But instead of starry eyed teenagers, this time it is a bizarre bunch of middle aged politicians and socialite divas!

:crazy::crazy::crazy:

[Justice Is Comin]

81. It's dismal and simply amazing to me

that many people can't see through this phony.

I guess that's how Ken Copeland got his flock.

We could have a conceited teacher preacher for president. Yippeee.

[MoonRiver]

98. Even though I intensely dislike him, if I thought he could win his tactics might be tolerable to me.

But it's obvious he's going to lose BIG. Rezko, his nuclear waste sell-out, and, as unfair as it is, his Muslim background and middle name, among other things, will be the Rethugs ticket to the WH.

I'm starting to think that Democrats anymore are just too disorganized and distracted to have a clue about how to win national elections.

[rodeodance]

203. all kidding aside--there is a cult-like aura out there is beyond scary-it is dangerous.

[katty]

250. it's more like rock star than a cultateria

[Neshanic]

99. Does Oprah know this "Joe Wilson" guy?

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

124. Who's Oprah?

[rodeodance]

198. The other 'O"

[flyinzamboni]

125. A message from a "cultist"

Joe Wilson's article has several shortcomings - he apparently did not attend the convention in 2004 or notice Obama's speech. He did not seem to notice when Obama when running for Senate (2006 vs 2004). And he seems to imply that Obama could not possibly understand the world without having been everywhere while at the same time all of the on-the-ground experience necessary to understand Africa and shape a huge shift in foreign policy could be attained in an 11 day trip. Joe Wilson is a great man, but I do not believe this is not one of his better articles.

I am sorry if you do not agree that people should like Obama. I, for one, do like Obama. And I also like Hillary. They are both different and have many things going for both of them. They also each have their shortcomings.

I am planning on supporting Obama in the primaries and I will support the democratic candidate who wins the primary in the general election. In the grander scheme, I like to think we are still on the same side.

You may not like my priorities. You may not like how I make my decisions.

You are willing to insult me. You call me a cultist. You claim that I am not able to hear anything. You seem willing to put words in my mouth and able to discern what is wrong with me.

And yet, you have never met me.

[Barb in Atl]

138. Nice Post

I will be ECSTATIC when this primary is over. Like you, I support Obama and, also like you, I will vote for the democratic nominee.

I just hope that all this bitterness and vitriole will be done with before the general election. I don't think I can survive a McCain presidency.

[LandOLincoln]

145. I disagree with your take on Wilson's article, but I'd like to

leave that aside for the moment, and point out that no one is calling all Obama supporters "cultists." Certainly you and the others like you in no way fit that description.

What would I call you? I'd call you a fellow Democrat. Good to see there are still some of us around. :toast:

[Scriptor Ignotus]

183. fooled me

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4382933&mesg_id=4383405

no biggie though.

[LandOLincoln]

227. First of all, I'm LandOLincoln, not

My Pet Rock.

Second, MPR specified "Obama cult members," not ALL Obama supporters. Big difference.

[Annoyingly Logical]

238. The problem is

...this board and several others are littered with "Obamists" and "Cult of Obama" references. As a more experienced politico, I am witnessing the older more experienced members of our party ostracize the newer members of our party by denigrating them in this fashion. It makes no sense.

Is this treatment the worst thing ever? Probably not. But if you are a political newbie how would you know?

The recent turnout of young democratic and independent voters for Obama is one of the best stories of this campaign season, but the willingness of long-time progressives to throw it all away by antagonizing these new member of our party is the height of stupidity. Let me break it down for everyone: Calling a supporter of Obama a dreamer, a cultist, or unrealistic, sounds to the uninitiated like you are calling them stupid for their decision to support the man. The aim of politics is to win friends and influence acquaintances, but this kind of venom does neither.

Now, I know you are not the guilty party in this LandoLincoln, but for those who have been doing it, it really makes more sense to reserve that kind of vitriol for the McCainites in the general election instead of potentiallly fragmenting our rapidly expanding, yet still fragile party.

[RaleighNCDUer]

320. See posts 44, 81, 203 above.

The irrational hatred of Obama is pervasive. Some ARE calling all Obama supporters cultists. I have been so called several times and he is not even my 4th choice - but he is well ahead of Hillary in my choices which is the TRUE qualifier.

You sound like a reasonable person - why not take on the filth-spewing haters who are trying to undermine the party?

And, to a rational person, why is Wilson backing the candidate who voted counter to his own advice, and not backing the candidate who agreed with him?

[Scriptor Ignotus]

181. well said

I noticed that about Obama's DNC speech too. What kind of Democrat doesn't recall that speech?

Even DUers who hate Obama admit that the speech was memorable.

[classykaren]

234. yES BECAUSE HE HAS A FAMOUS SPEECH WRITER N/T

[orleans]

295. WHAT?? WHY ARE WE YELLING?? N/T

[mirrera]

249. Nice post! Welcome to DU...

Not everyone feels a need to call people spies, trolls, provocateurs, and now... wow cultists. LOL!
Like you I like all of our candidates, but I think that the "teenagers" deserve a say. I am a 50 year old white girl and I want the young to have their say. Obama is plain lovable and that is a fact. I am voting for him in my caucus and I hope to meet him some day. His books are wonderful so I feel as if i know him, and Michelle will make an awesome first lady. I read Joe Wilson's book and he is not my "hero". He is another very astute and talented politician, but definitely old school as my son would say. It is time for a change. I was ready for Kucinich, but others are not. I was ready for Edwards, others were not. Everybody that I care about is ready for Obama, so I will help push that along because it is a start in a good direction.

PS Congratulations to Hillary because Joe Wilson is way more impressive than Oprah... for some. Me? Bonnie Raite for Edwards... come on! No contest.

[Krashkopf]

133. I find the term "Obama Cultist" very offensive . . .

and very divisive.

Sadly, that type of mud-slinging, "attack dog" politics, appears to be all too common among HRC supporters.

It didn't work for me when "the Big {Attack} Dog," Bill Clinton went after Obama . . . the more Bill spoke, the less I liked Hillary . . . and it certainly isn't "winning me over" to see HRC supporters on DU make such angry, Republican-like, asses out of themselves.

Here is something to consider . . . if the Clintons divide the Democratic party this badly, just imagine how much they will polarize America during the General Election!

I was an Edwards supporter (and still might be if he has at least 15% support in my precinct) but, the nastiness of you HRC supporters is making me feel very comfortable with my decision to caucus for Obama tomorrow night.

[madmom]

159. why is it Clinton is dividing the party and not Obama?

[murielm99]

209. You won't get an answer.

The media decided to obsess over Bill. They distorted everything he said and made it sound divisive.

Obama insulted two of the most important demographics we have, boomers and gays, but he gets a pass.

Bill is known as a hard campaigner. Imagine how the media would have reacted if he had decided to sit back and NOT campaign for Hillary? We would never have heard the end of it.

I see something else on DU that sickens me. It is the division between young and old Democrats. There is no good reason for it. I think that Obama surrogates are doing this all over DU, from the phone banker who was relieved when she finally spoke to someone whose voice did not have a quaver, to the newbies who pounce on a single word in a post without answering any concrete questions that may be asked in a thread.

Support your candidate. But try to do it in a more positive way.

[madmom]

222. Yes I know what you mean I actually told my SO that I think we are more divided than ever,

young & old, black & white, rich & poor, male & female. Hopefully it can only get better.

[Hoof Hearted]

280. It will get much better here after the nom is decided. I have faith.

Plus, after we have a nom, anything to vicious will get TS'ed.

[ckimmy57]

261. Well put

I hate to see this party so divided. Why can't people just support their candidate without being belittled. I think all three candidates have good and bad qualitites and points. In the primary I'm voting for HRC (since Edwards is pulling out...)but if Obama wins the party nomination then he'll be my candidate. This is not a time for the democrats to be cat fighting and demeaning each other. I heard on the news today that Anne Coulter said if McCain was the nominee she was voting for Clinton :wow: so lets leave the back stabbing and bickering to the repukes. This is the democrats chance to take the white house back.

[krkaufman]

161. Re: "was Edward supporter but Clinton tactics have me leaning Obama"

That's exactly what has happened to me. I was indifferent to Clinton & Obama through the Iowa caucuses, and surged even more anti-media after they ignored Edwards' 2nd place in Iowa. But the Clinton campaign tactics that started immediately after Iowa startled me, and I began to get a feeling for why the Right Wing may have such ill feelings towards them -- if this style of campaigning is what they've done when going after the Arkansas governorship and the Presidency.

[papau]

202. Obama as victim ?? - OK

[Barrymores Ghost]

286. Is this productive?

Look, I've met Joe Wilson and spoken with him for the better part of an hour. I get the sense that he is a straight-shooter, and I've no doubt that he is a patriot. But regardless of his endorsement of Hillary Clinton (and your own particular candidate preferences notwithstanding), I find your comment to be beyond the pale where pure, unadulterated divisiveness is concerned, and you do absolutely nothing to advance the conversation.

"Cult members?" Is this your idea of winning hearts and minds? Do you honestly think that, by marginalizing and belittling those who find inspiration in Obama's message, you will sway them to your way of thinking? Do you posit that Hillary Clinton and her record are beyond reproach or examination?

...Or are you just a Freeper troll?

[truedelphi]

120. Richard Holbrook is one of the all time slime balls of history.

He has done his share of dirty, nation destroying activities.

If Sen. Clinton is associated with him, it is yet another reason to stay the hell away from her.

[Jai4WKC08]

168. "Nation destroying"?

The only "nation destroying" that Holbrooke can be accused of is against Serbia... which, willyalookythere, is still around. So it was hardly destroyed.

But the 2 million Kosovars that the Serbs were trying to murder are all still alive too. I'd guess Holbrooke did a pretty good thing.

One thing I know. Samantha Power applauded Clinton/Holbrooke/Clark's work as the first time the US has ever taken a stand against genocide. And she's a key Obama advisor and surrogate. So I guess you'll want to "stay the hell away" from him too?

[in_cog_ni_to]

187. We should also mention, just to be clear here, that not one U.S. soldier lost a life in that

conflict.

[truedelphi]

217. But the precedent of using DU materials against a population

Was thuis set in stone.

[Jai4WKC08]

221. The precedent was set long before this war

Iirc, the Soviets were the first to use DU weapons. Then we picked them up in the late 1980s (Repub adminstration but Democratic congressional appropriation) because they really are the only thing that will penetrate reactive armor. I'm not sure but the Soviets may have used them in Afghanistan, and for sure practiced with them at their firing ranges. I know that we used them in the first Gulf war. In that case and in Serbia, they weren't used against the population intentionally, only against the tanks and other armored vehicles. That said, there are now (but not then) indications that the DU itself may pollute the local environment and thus harm the civilian population. The science is still inconclusive.

But there are NO weapons of war that don't harm civilians. War is a very bad thing. Duh. The only real answer is to keep from having wars, which men like Holbrooke try very hard to accomplish. Unfortunately, men like Milosevic (and Bush) keep killing civilians and war is often the only thing that deters them.

[truedelphi]

230. I will never forget the incredulous looks on the faces of civilians in downtown Belgrade

After a bombing raid.

At some point, I am afraid, we are going to experience that here. Not just in a one time terrorist attack like 9/11, but as a result that over the last ten years, the nations of the world needed to get together and work for peace.

And so far, all that has happened is that what was once the leading nation of the world has participated in two wars.

You can't work for war and work for peace at the same time.

[Jai4WKC08]

236. Imagine the faces of the Kosovars

As their homes were broken into and their sons and fathers, politicians, teachers, and other community leaders taken out and shot. Or their faces as they watched their babies freeze to death in the mountain passes into Albania and Macedonia.

If the people of Belgrade were incredulous, it's because they didn't realize they had allowed themselves to be led by a monster. I'm sure the people of Dresden and Hiroshima felt the same fifty years ago.

You still haven't answered my question about Samantha Power. Last I heard, Obama was talking about intervening in Kenya. I'm sure she supports that decision, and may be counseling for it. Or is your criticism only reserved for Hillary and Holbrooke?

[truedelphi]

263. I have to confes that I had never heard of Smantha Powers until you just mentioned her

So you will have to
A either tell me what you think about Samantha Powers or
B) give me a day or two to figure her out.

If you tell me your thoughts on Samantha Powers, please attempt to offer the info in as dialectical a manner as possible.

You are becoming an educator for me.

Which is good. Far too much of DU currently is *not* what I found a year or two ago, i.e. educational. Often these days DU is simply a childish aspect of what people do to each other when they find someone who isn't voting for their candidate. (And yes, i can be guilty of childish behavior myself.)

But currently I have no real dogs in this fight. Except that I have knowledge of things that Senator Clinton did that are beyond the pale for my soul's approval, given that I spent night and day in 2004 hoping that the November 2004 election would not be stolen.

Part of what I am saying is that I would be voting for the woman candidate in tomorrow's race - if that woman was Barbara Boxer.

Senator Clinton is just too closely attached to the DLC for me to think that she did not understand Boxer's motives in not certifying the election. And her reason for not joining Boxer would then be that she has more about her ambition than the need to keep elections integral.

As far as civilians who are hurt by war: my heart bleeds for all of them. The Serbian causualties from the Croatian atrocities, the Albanians who suffered from the Serbian atrocities, the Iraqis who suffer from all that has happened to them under Bush's "Shock and Awe" and the civil turmoil that resulted from his not bringing adequate troop reserves in to do the job.

At times I want war against those who terrorize me and mine, and I don't mean Muslims, or Al QUeda, but I mean the insurance executives who have put so many in this country into misery. If you kill me with a knife or a fountain pen, which is more despicable?

But my upbringing is extremely related to pacifism. My father found solace in laying his heart out to me when I was maybe all of three or four. It was the only way he could recover from all that he had participated in when he fought that war, which he sometimes referred to as "The war where the government made me go and kill my German cousins."

I know you are a military man and if I speak of pacifism you might think me loony. But in the end, I stand with Einstein's statement to the effect that he didn't know what the major weapon would be of the next MAJOR war, but he knew that after that one there would only be sticks and stones to use in future fights.

If even that.

[Jai4WKC08]

329. I'll have to get back to you

I've been GOTV calling most of today, and am about to get ready to leave for my caucus. You've written a thoughtful reply and I'd like to give you as much back.

Fwiw, tho, I do like and respect Samantha Power, even if I don't always agree with her. She is a brave woman trying to do good in the world. Her book on genocide is an amazing read.

Also, another quick answer: I'm not "a military man" ... I'm a military woman. I spent over 20 years in the Army, working both intelligence and joint planning, and retired in at the tail end of 1997. Fwiw, my husband is a career military man, altho he retired in the 80s, stayed home to take care of the kids, and now works for the railrod (so we are a union family too). We have a son who's in the Air National Guard and a daughter in high school. More than you wanted to know, but felt I should correct your assumption.

And finally, for now, no, I don't think you're a loony for being a pacifist. I respect your opinions and feelings. I just have different ones. But I think we both want peace most of all, even if we don't agree on the best way to achieve it.

[truedelphi]

330. As I fell asleep last night, my conscience nagged me - I was assuming this poster

Was male! How could I do that!

My apologies for that assumption.

My engineering books used to line the walls of our living room. And people thought,of course, that they were Mark's.

Anyway, if you can't get round to Samantha Powers info over the next few days, feel free at any time to PM.

I'm going to ask the library to order her book, if they haven't already.

[truedelphi]

215. Except that the leader of Serbia, Milosevic was told by Holbrooke that he could and should do

anything that was needed to secure the sovreignity of Greater Serbia.

And that was the message the citizens there received as well.

If you think a whole nation "Deserves' to be hit with DU bombs that decinate the population for years to come, well, here's athought - firht now, our population has a lot more blood on our hands from the deaths of Iraqi civilians than the Serbian people have over the Albanians.

So maybe China or someone should come along and "reward" us for our treatment of the Iraqis.

oh, never mind, if this thing with Iran heats up, they probably will.

[Jai4WKC08]

224. That's not true

That was the Serbian position, but there is no independent evidence and Milosevic had every reason to stall for time and then to justify his actions.

Besides, the "whole nation" was not hit with DU bombs. It was only used against Serb armored forces. As I said above, we now know that DU can get into the environment. We don't know how widespread the damage can be. But even by the worst estimates, it was not the "whole nation." Don't get so melodramatic.

Human Right Watch estimates that no more than 500 Serb civilians were killed during the war. The Serba had already killed more Kosovars, and was in the process of trying to kill or drive out many many more.

You know, the German and Japanese people suffered horribly in WWII. Far worse than anything the Serbs were subjected to. Should we have allowed Hitler to murder the Jews, gays, Roma, etc, and Japanese military caste to murder and enslave the Chinese?

[disndat]

258. I agree.

Even though I am an Obama supporter, Clinton's war on Serbia was one of his successes. People don't remember what a mad, murderous dictator Milosevic was. He was committing genocide on his people as the world watched in horror, and Clinton stopped it. The people in Albania, are naming their children after Clinton in gratitude.

[Fedja]

294. you didn't...

Oh dear god... Please please don't post comments on the Balkan conflicts. Please. Stick to regions you understand, and I don't mean know about, but understand.

The Balkans, including Kosovo, have been stirring for centuries. Sure, it takes a catalyst idiot such as Milosevic to trigger mayhem, but don't give him too much credit, the proverbial feces would have hit the fan even without him, albeit not as soon.

Facts that a disconnected observer may miss (or like to ignore):

- DU kills people for centuries, as it takes millenia to degrade.
- Most of the bombing in mainland Serbia in the latter half of the mission was focused on civilian infrastructure. This, combined with economic sanctions, has pushed Serbia back in time to a country that is a pale shadow of what it was. A whole generation was traumatized by the nightly bombings. If you have a hard time grasping that concept, look at what 9/11 did to the US. Now transform that into nightly bombings. :P
- Reading up on Kosovo history and demographics may help you see that both sides had a justifiable claim to the territory. Conflict was mutual, and while Serbia did intervene militairly, ask yourself why 95% of the Serbian population of Kosovo have fled the area. Balkan violence is NEVER one-sided.


All in all, it's fairly sickening to read opinions on how a bit of bombing can build spirit. Better than not bombing people right? Since we all know, nothing solves a problem like a good JDAM on your house. Oh, and only <insert number> civilians died.
Nato admitted that a cluster bomb aimed at an airfield in the Yugoslav city of Niš hit a hospital and a market, killing 14 civilians. Local officials said that a further 60 people were injured in the daylight attack which left unexploded cluster bombs lying in gardens.
Just one of several examples, to give some "flesh" to the deaths. If that happened in your town, would it be a big deal? Would you be melodramatic? Would you consider it no big deal?



*disclaimer: The author of this lives in Slovenia, a country that was at the start of the Balkan conflicts briefly invaded by Serbia. The author of this has several close family members from Bosnia dead, missing and presumed dead, or living as refugees in exile, never to return to their homes, which the Serbian army has razed. The author of this post has a better capacity to see the Serbian civilian population as human beings than far-detached sofa-analysts that have the audacity to claim that a whole nation need be destroyed before one can question the rationale of bombings.

**EDIT: To think that any conflict was resolved by the way, is naive. There is bad blood in Kosovo still, and could erupt at any time.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

143. Just wait - he will now be labelled a "traitor" by the more vehement Obama supporters.

You could be a proven progressive who has been loyal for years to the cause but if you select the "wrong" candidate - heaven forbid.

[LiberalHeart]

146. I wonder if we'll still be allowed to like Valerie.

[George II]

172. It doesn't have to be that way, zealots just choose to make it that way

[earthlover]

254. Yes Wilson was playing dirty when he said....

"In 2004, he said about the 2002 congressional Authorization for the Use of Military Force: "I'm not privy to Senate intelligence reports. What would I have done? I don't know.""

Deceptively, Wilson left out the context and most importantly left out the rest of Obama's statement that said CLEARLY that the case had not been met yet to his knowledge to support Iraq.

Why is it that so-called respectable people have to be deceptive and try to quote people in snippets to reverse the original intent? Is it sickness? Hero worship? Or what?

I USED TO respect Wilson. Now I view him as a political hack job who will deceive in order to make his point for the Hillary Herd. How disappointing.

[murielm99]

269. Joe Wilson is a "political hack job" because he

disagrees with YOUR candidate?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I never thought I would see the day that anyone on DU said such a thing.

I have not called you people cultists yet, but I just changed my mind. You deserve it.

[earthlover]

311. ANyone who will deceive in order to further one's candidate is a hack

Unfortunately, leaving out the last sentence of Obama's quote at the convention was deceiving. Deliberate, pre-meditated deceiving.

I do not respect people who are that loose with honesty.

I am disappointed because I used to respect Wilson.

Sorry if that upsets cultists.

[ExPatLeftist]

313. ONE individual, not "you people"

I see comments like this all the time, from people all over the map, supporters of . This poster seems to think that because one person said something that he didn't like that that gives him the right to call an entire segment of "people" a derogatory name.

This is, to me, a common disconnect in the world today, particularly, IMO, in the US. People talk about what Obama supporters think or Clinton voters feel, or how Iraq "feels" about something.

We are all individuals. If you want to upbraid someone for saying something that you find idiotic, then have at it. But I will not accept being collateral damage in that shotgun approach. I very often do not agree with people that vote the same as I do, and I will not be held accountable for the comments of each and every person that fits nicely into the same pigeonholed demographic as I do, on whatever level.

Personally, I believe the world will be a better place when we realize that we are all unique individuals and begin to treat each other as such, rather than some rah rah "My team is better than yours" attitude that somehow allows people to think that huge groups somehow think with hive minds. It will also help to allow people to not consider that the comments made by one individual with a certain view or preference does not reflect the views of all people that share that trait. Elementary logic, but logic seems not to be present in the hive-mind worldview...

[sojourner]

283. okay...please, while there's still time, Wake the Fuck UP!

Not because of Obama. But because you just turned a patriot into a "hack job" because of what? Because his truth is discordant with yours?

His "truth" seems based on personal experience and a patriotism I cannot and will not deny (Bush et al destroyed his wife's career and he has nothing to gain from promulgating the deceptions).

Your "truth"? Looks like and sounds like it is based on something I find more than a little alarming. Notice PLEASE that I do not discredit your sincerity. I believe you believe Obama with all your heart.

[Virginian]

292. He wrote it back in December.

It is not a "Super Tuesday" article.

[bidenista]

5. Mama '08

GoMama!

[Straight Shooter]

13. Desperate? You don't know Joe Wilson.

But Joe Wilson knows Hillary Clinton. It was his endorsement, whether official or not, that really caused me to step back and take a good hard look at Hillary. He's a Washington insider, and he knows what it's like to be villified by the right wing, too.

It's an excellent article. Take off your Barack two-dimensional glasses and read it.

[in_cog_ni_to]

37. Did you think you would ever see the day that JOE WILSON was vilified by DUERS????

This cult we have going here is unbelievable! They've lost all perspective!:crazy:

[libbygurl]

50. Many in the Obama camp really strike me as being cultists, and not realists.

Their prickly defensiveness of their hero, the ultrasensitivity to any negative comment, no matter how slight, gets their back up. No, their Saintly Hero is unassailable and perfect, to hear a lot them put it.

For my part, I know that Hillary is an imperfect candidate, but WHO ISN'T? We're all human, and I find Hillary's positives far outweigh her (mostly wrongly perceived) negatives.

[elixir]

58. Yeah, Obamites are kind of like girls w/ high school crushes. Don't spoil his image for them.

[Annoyingly Logical]

220. It must be candidate envy

Based on the posts here in DU lately, it seems like the only thing Hillary supporters want from Obama supporters is their silence. They are not supposed to speak up for their candidate, at the risk of being labled ultrasensitive & prickly & defensive.

This development is the heigh of irony because as democrats, we have all been in the position of having to defend Bill and Hillary at some point, but for some reason, this isn't allowed by their opposition.

Hillary supporters, you should probably be less concerned about your Barrack's followers really liking their candidate, as you should be with coming up with a plausible defense for Hillary still trying to defend her war vote.

[okoboji]

287. actually .....

for me personally


I am so tired of hearing about Obama giving a speech in 2002. That was 6 years ago. The war is still going on. He has done nothing to stop it.

[Barrymores Ghost]

293. So, how is one to respond to the term "cultist?"

I mean, given that you know jack shit about me, and me about you, how am I to take your blanket accusation that Obama supporters must be mindless robots, overcome by the glamor and allure of the "Charismatic Black Candidate" and unaware of the shining beacon of hope that is Camp Clinton?

Please, astonish me with your peerless intellect and acute insight.

[avaistheone1]

59. Wilson was better than a nice diplomat. He was our ambassador to Iraq during the first Gulf war

After being directly threatened by Saddam Hussein not to shelter anyone at the American embassy under penalty of death, Wilson defied Hussein and sheltered 100 Americans. Wilson has received many awards including Secretary of State Distinguished Service Award,Department of State Superior Honor Award, Department of State Meritorious Honor Award,University of California, Santa Barbara Distinguished Alumnus Award, American Foreign Service Association William R. Rivkin Award Decorations, Commander in the Order of the Equatorial Star (Government of Gabon), Admiral in the El Paso Navy (El Paso County Commissioners) as well as BuzzFlash Wings of Justice Award, shared with wife, Valerie Plame (2005), Ron Ridenhour Award for Truth-Telling (from the Fertel Foundation and The Nation Institute.

I think Joe Wilson took a brave position on Gulf War 2 in order to protect our lives. I can see there are some people who are pretty ignorant and ungrateful about that.

[FormerDittoHead]

79. After seeing them call Bill Clinton a racist for using the phrase "fairy tale"? I'm not surprised..

Funny how that was over the same issue...

[in_cog_ni_to]

84. Funny how the MSM never showed the WHOLE FREAKIN' CLIP until the OBAMA LIE was already out!

Wilson was suckered like everyone else was, no doubt!

[FormerDittoHead]

91. Yes - the clip I saw on Meet the Press was DISGUSTING...

I mean, the whole THING was all of 40 seconds, but they couldn't STOP playing the "crucial" TEN seconds over and over and over again...

I should also thank you for this Wilson clip. Not only does IT put things into some greater perspective, but it also has let the Obama supporters demonstrate that maybe they're not so willing to abandon the "old ways" of doing things...

[Neshanic]

100. "Joe? Joe who? Oh that guy that kinda did that thingy about that you know."

[flyarm]

105. 1st many of these obama people are new ..2.) they don't give a shit 3.) many were little kids

when 9/11 happened..and 4.) they have no fear of going to war..mommy and daddy have protected them from it ( they think)
5.) many are so spoiled they have no idea what sacrifice for the nation is..( like the Wilsons have done )

6.) obama gave some of them IPODS..

fly

[cottonseed]

176. This is a weird comment.

I've read it a few times, and it doesn't make any sense.

[in_cog_ni_to]

189. What's not to understand in that post? I understand exactly what fly is saying!

It's perfectly clear to me.

[cottonseed]

200. I suppose, I just don't see how iPods contribute to cultism.

The comment seemed a little scattered. I sensed a little reaching in it. For me personally, it was just odd. My prism might need a little tweaking.

[in_cog_ni_to]

207. Ah, I see. You don't see giving kids iPODS could be seen as bribery...or anything. Right?

:eyes: Buying votes, maybe?

[cottonseed]

210. Wait. Obama is giving iPods for his vote?

I looked around for some sources on this but I couldn't find anything. I figure, since I'm voting Obama tomorrow, why not get an iPod for it -- but, I just couldn't find a reference to this. Could you help me out by pointing me towards any information on this?

[in_cog_ni_to]

211. Ask flyarm. She has all the info about that...cash in. Everyone else is! n/t

[cottonseed]

213. I really, really hope your not using Obama's Letterman appearence for the basis of your smear.

I went looking around for Obama and references to iPods. Only found a Letterman appearance of him presenting the Top 10.

Here's the link:

http://www.podcastingnews.com/2008/01/26/obama-fighting-ipod-vote/

#4 is a promise to not let Apple release a new iPod after you've just bought the latest model.

He also said he'd put "Regis on the Nickel".

[in_cog_ni_to]

214. flyarm told me about it. Ask her! She said he had passed them out to kids at a rally or something.

Ask flyarm...she posted just above us.

[cottonseed]

218. Ok, I'll ask her about it. Was hoping you'd have some more info on it though.

If you're going to peddle this stuff, I would have hoped you'd be able to help with atleast some sort of reference.

[Annoyingly Logical]

223. So wait noone has any proof on this one.

Sounds very Rovian guys.

[in_cog_ni_to]

229. flyarm does. She talked about it in another thread. n/t

[Annoyingly Logical]

245. So ummm.......

.......Flyarm has figured out that Obama's strategy to win the election is to give out IPods which will mesmerize everyone who receives them into voting for him???

With the current cost of an Ipod Nano being about $140 and needing about 20 million votes to secure the nomination, Obama would have to spend, I don't know, I'm guessing about $300 million to win the nomination. Talk about grasping at straws. Flyarm get a grip.

[cottonseed]

246. It's an odd accusation. I'm still waiting to hear what flyarm's got to say on the matter.

I have a feeling I'll be waiting quite some time.

[in_cog_ni_to]

277. She hasn't answered you? Maybe she has you on ignore? Have you been

obnoxious? If so, she could have put you on ignore.

[cottonseed]

281. Na, I don't think she has me on ignore - I haven't been that obnoxious n/t

[in_cog_ni_to]

284. LOL! Are you sure?

:)...just jokin' ya! I'll see if I can get the info for you, okay?

[cottonseed]

300. I'd love to see it. At this point I'm just going to pencil it in as a smear, but we'll see n/t

[cottonseed]

216. Hey there, looking for clarification on the "Obama passing out iPods for Votes" thing.

I'd commented on this once before, while commenting with in_cog_ni_to, he tells me you've got information on Obama buying votes. Or atleast giving iPods out for them. Just looking for a little info on that.

[Barrymores Ghost]

289. Hey, sport...

...listen up and learn something. I'm an active-duty vet, a forty-plus-something, and a progressive John Edwards acolyte who now supports Obama. Two days ago, I met John Kerry for the first time. You might remember him as the last lawfully-elected American president...he's also a decorated veteran and...oh, yeah, he's a Barack Obama supporter. I doubt he got an iPod for his efforts, but I'll bet he goes to sleep at night pretty secure in his decision to support the senator from Illinois.

Oh, something else: he doesn't disparage Hillary Clinton, or her supporters, but chooses to engage them in dialogue.

You might consider giving that a shot, Mensa. That is, if it's something that falls within what I tend to perceive as your limited scope of abilities.

[nvme]

154. Joe Wilson is no GOD

Joe is right when he says that Obama was tucked away somewhere in Illinois when he spoke out. But also remember he spoke out in a state where politics are played as a full contact sport. Yet he did so loudly during a time when much of his fellow countrymen had war fever. Not when it was safe.

I see The whole HRC Clinton phenomena as another calculated move on her part. Another step in the 2 family dynasty that has dominated american politics for the last 20 years. From her strategic residence in NY in order to get her senate seat I saw it then I see it now. Hill would have voted for that authorization for Iraq whether she had faulty intelligence or not. It was the only way to establish street credit and seem hawkish enough for this presidential run. NY was was just the stepping stone she needed to walk up the steps to the Whitehouse. Up to about 06 she supported that hawkish stance. Once it became evident that voter dissatisfaction over Iraq was solidifying, she triangulates and she sheds her coat of feathers to be the new and improved dove. Triangulating further she aligns with R murdock (I didn't notice her refusing his cash). She triangulate further when her polls are down and sheds a nice crocodile tear(bravo on that one). Now polls show Obama gaining momentum bam out come more tears. The only President that comes to mind that is so manipulative or cunning would be Nixon. I truly hope she doesn't win the nomination. and if she does I will vote for her and pray that " God has mercy on us all".

So I embrace the label of OBAMITE. I embrace the Unknown. Was it ever a guaranteed that the rebellion of the colonies would succeed? Maybe my candidate my not get the nomination but at least I stand before the unknown ,(with fear in my heart)step forward and say" YES WE CAN!"

[krkaufman]

169. Re: "whether she had faulty intelligence or not"

Oh, that's right. HRC likes to say that she had been presented faulty intelligence... but neglects to point-out that her fellow Senator, Bob Graham, urged all Senators to read the full, 92-page classified Iraq NIE prior to voting on the Iraq resolution, but only 6 Senators did and Hillary wasn't one of them.

The Iraq NIE detailed the uncertainty of the WMD argument, the unlikelihood of Saddam ever using WMDs, and Saddams' adversarial relationship to al Qaeda, but Hillary failed to do the basic due diligence prior to her vote and Joe Wilson "artfully" omitted this fact, as well.

Wilson's commentary is selective partisan hackery.

[Barrymores Ghost]

290. SNAP!!! (n/t)

[krkaufman]

331. chuckle/thanks... n/t

[Bake]

182. No, Joe Wilson is no "god."

None of us are gods. Neither is Obama; a fact that seems to be missed by some of his supporters.

Bake

[rodeodance]

201. I have to say I did not. But seems some obamamanics are doing it!!

[libbygurl]

48. Please, this is just an opinion piece written by one of the people deeply...

...involved in questioning the premise for the Iraq war. Mr Wilson is simply putting things in their proper perspective.

Can't you even respect that, without commenting on it with that all-too-common, derisive, anti-Hillary tone?

Did you even read the whole piece without dismissing it out of hand? Desperate, my foot.

[Andromeda]

53. Believe me, it wouldn't take much.

:thumbsdown:

[libbygurl]

54. True. The media-left, right, centre-continue the pro-Obama and anti-Clinton meme...

...and that's why very little criticism of Saint Obama comes through to the people.

[elixir]

56. Joe Wilson, Wes Clark and Richard Holbrook.Three great americans supporting our next president. Yes!

[in_cog_ni_to]

68. YUP! Wes Clark...the man I wanted to be President.

He and Holbrook have always been highly respected on DU....until the Obama cult took over.:(

[BlackVelvet04]

70. If you think this is bad what will you and your candidate do

when the republicans finish with you?

[va4wilderness]

108. To be honest...

Neither of these candidates is the best that we've got to go against the Repubs. There are some that are quite strong that didn't run or that bowed out. But I wonder how well Clinton will do in the red (and purpl-ish) states, some of which we need to win. We can't win if we just win the same blue states as before and no more.

[WinkyDink]

74. THAT is a desperate attack on Ambassador Wilson. Can't you guys take ANY criticism?

Pretty thin-skinned, as well as paranoid.

[Annoyingly Logical]

231. Come up with a real criticism and we'll all find out

As a life-long politico, I'm having a problem comprehending the group-speak that the Clinton camp has resorted to on this board.

Ridiculing Obama supporters for not "taking" any criticism sounds more like projection, than raising a valid point. No supporter of any candidate is going to let the opposition express negative opinions about their candidate without offering a rebuttal. Calling for Obama supporters to "stop being paranoid" because they choose to poke holes in Ambassador Wilson's argument is illogical. Would any Hillary supporter sit idly by while a McCain supporter ridiculed her experience without attempting to set them straight??? Why is this expected of the Obama campaign supporters???

I have yet to hear anyone on the Clinton side make a valid case in defense of her war vote(and I have attended Clinton fund raisers and debate parties). In the end, I doubt I ever will because it is INDEFENSIBLE. There is no way to justify that vote, at that time or any other, other than to call it what it was....Politically Safe. Until that issue is resolved it will always be a millstone around Hillary's neck.

I was a campaign volunteer for Bill Clinton during his 1992 campaign, and if Hillary wins the nomination I will support her similarly. But in the interim, no-one on either side should be made to feel guilty for singing the praises of and/or defending, their candidate of choice.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

111. DU rules do not allow for calling other DU'ers trolls or calling them out

You may want to check the rules for posting to the forum.

[1corona4u]

82. Yeah, and you're not?? Talking about Hillary having an emotional moment...

give me a fucking break.

[burgundy floppy hat]

86. You're having an emotional moment. Calm down.

dude, really, get self aware....

[burgundy floppy hat]

90. I'm a democrat, through and through. It's not my fault the republican trolls cant keep up...

don't whine, it's unmanly.

Proudest moment?

As Peter Buck said of REM: "no one in this band ever voted for Ronald Reagan."


now, come back with something incisive witty...

[1corona4u]

131. I am not a 'dude',

and I don't need to 'calm down'.

[liberalnurse]

110. Joe Wilson doesn't preform for ANYONE!

He speaks his mind, gives an honorable opinion and will put his life and career on the line of fire for the truth. Have you conveniently forgotten the "16 words of State of the Union"?

[desertflamingo]

142. i'm sorry...

but when i listen to obama ALL i hear is blah blah blah "change" blah blah blah "hope" blah blah blah. ask an obamite why they're going to vote for him and it's "change" it's "hope." yeah? how? well... um... "change" and "hope." really? specifics - you know, specifics on his OWN ideas and plans. sure! um... "change" and "hope!!" when i actually look at his record and some of the shit coming down the pike in regard to his relationship and alleged mortgage fraud with a mobbed up guy, i don't have any hope for the future of this country with obamarama in charge and i certainly don't see any change in the dirty politics we've been subjected to over the past 7+ years.

yeah. change. hope.

whatever.

he's a cult figure who is being pushed by the m$m because 1) THEY OWN HIM and 2) he'll be SO easy to beat come nov.

the ONLY change i see with him getting elected (oops, wait... i have to clean up the coffee i just sprayed all over thinking about obama actually getting elected after the repubs go to work on him) is a 1/2 white 1/2 black male owned by the corporations will live in the white house versus a 100% white male owned by the corporations and living in the white house. and the ONLY hope i'd have IF that fairytale were ever to come true is that the next 4 years go really really FAST and... we all live through it.

but staying with your post - if you REALLY think what you're seeing and experiencing now with supposed clinton supporters trying to tear your messiah down before super tuesday is ANYTHING REMOTELY like what you'll see if obama gets the nomination then you and the other cultists are truly truly naive. the rovians are salivating just waiting to unleash the racist, christofascist dogs on obama. just wait. you will be begging and crying for the good old days when the mean old and jealous clinton supporters were mean to obama. do you know what swiftboating is? well, that was a warmup compared to what's in the wings for obama. there will be a new verb after nov '08 - swiftboated will be replaced with "OBAMED."

just sayin'.

[Justice Is Comin]

199. That was a good 8x10 glossy of exactly what is to come.

These obamdroids are like a dog chasing a tire.

What they aren't thinking about is what are they going to do when they get it.

The republicans are going to leave him laying on the side of the road with tire tracks all over him.

[okoboji]

288. you left something out....

amongst all the blah blah blah "change" blah blah blah "hope" blah blah blah .. you need to add, he gave a speech in 2002 blah blah blah "change" blah blah blah "hope" blah blah blah

[desertflamingo]

291. ROTFLMAO!!!

oh, man, THAT was good. thanks. havin' a crappy day and that almost saved it. hahahahahahaha!!!!

[mrbluto]

163. Wow! So informative!

But you forgot the pompoms.

Seriously - what the hell use was your post?

It didn't inform us of anything other than you like Obama.

Oh, and that you'd like to characterize a fellow democratic candidacy as desperate.

Totally subjective.

Guess who I'm going to vote for in the primaries?

You're not doing "your side" any favors - but perhaps that's the point.

Yahoos and shills like you are destroying this forum.

Are you capable of reason any more?

Prove it.

[George II]

171. The post would have been more effective if it was just called "The Real Hillary I Know"

and left out the Obama smear. But the facts remain the same. It's too bad the poster had to spoil a great bit of information by using it to attack another Democrat.

Someone I'm sure will say "that's politices", but it doesn't have to be that way.

[rodeodance]

197. What a WHINING Obamababy!!

[ursi]

309. I saw Joe Wilson in Reno ...room was full of wealthy grey-haired Hillary supporters

I felt so out of place. It was good to hear the parts he spoke about related to the lying Bush administration but his swan song for Hillary and invading Iran turned me off.

[Windy]

3. Wow, they are pulling out the daggers today... poll problems could be?

Be careful Hillary supporters when you denegrate Obama for a voting record that is much the same as Hillary's except for his VERY VOCAL objection to the IWR made while he was RUNNING FOR SENATE!!!!!

[in_cog_ni_to]

15. Be careful Obama supporters....your guy's going to be exposed for the liar he is.

If Hillary doesn't do it, the RW attack machine will. He'll never be able to withstand the attacks, so you better get use to. You want to attack Hillary and have no response? It doesn't work that way. What goes around, comes around.....and TRUTH is on our side. Obama is on the take from Exelon. He LIED to Iowa voters about passing Nuclear Power legislation that DID NOT PASS and he knew it did not pass, but spewed his LIE anyway. He let Exelon dictate his legislation while the people of Godley, Illinois are drinking Tritium laced water.

[Neshanic]

102. "I am so like bummed, McCain is so not playing fair with Obama, he's so uncool."

The republican smear machine cometh, and the Obamists have no idea of the things that will come to pass. Except maybe the parade with McCain going to the WH.

[hezekkia]

151. you are so negative.

i hope you'll come around and support Obama in November '08 anyway. we need a DEMOCRAT.

[in_cog_ni_to]

192. I'm just dishing back what I get. I'm no more negative than Obama supporters. n/t

[Windy]

42. I respect Wilson, but his article is rife with hypocrisy. n/t

[libbygurl]

65. Would you care to point out exactly which parts are hypocritical? nt

[burgundy floppy hat]

77. n/t, tell us how, and why...

really, otherwise you're just farting, right?

[elixir]

60. No problem. When he did vote, he voted like Hillary I can live w/ that. He can't do "present' anymor

[burgundy floppy hat]

78. After it was safe, yeah right....

don't know about poll numbers for Hillary,

I think the goal is the cut through the fog, for the Obama supporters.


They're selling you Bush, all over again, and you're buying it.

It would help if you cold define WHY obama is the superior candidate, and /or really acknowledge his weaknesses, showing a balanced thought process.

From what I've seen, you only scream when questioned, like the republican trolls, and it's the mark of childish narcissistic thought, which tells people a lot about you, and none of it good.

[displacedtexan]

6. Wow! That last paragraph is brutal.

The Wilsons mean business, don't they?

[cottonseed]

178. Brutal indeed.

I think the focus on the present votes however is fairly weak.

[piesRsquare]

257. Yes, they do mean business.

The United States Presidency is very serious business. It isn't fun and games, and it's not for the bright-eyed and bushy-tailed.

The next US President is going to be facing some really serious shit.

When face-to-face with the likes of Vladimir Putin (who used to be head of the KGB), the Prince/King of Saudi Arabia, Ahmadinejad and his Ayatollah boss, Kim Il Jong, and China's Hu Jintao on issues such as oil, nukes, trade, and currency, "Hope" and "Change" just isn't gonna cut it.

I dare anyone to call up the CEO of their health insurance company when denied coverage for necessary surgery and talk to them about "unity" and "hope" and "reaching across the aisle to each other" and "coming together for a better America", and topped off with, "Yes, we can"--and see how far it gets them.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

7. Is this new? Looks like a rehash of some bullshit I read from him a while back?

Obviously Joe was promised a plum spot in the Clinton administration and no little upstart named Barack Obama is going to get in the way of that!

[displacedtexan]

8. Are you serious? Got a link?

You read bullshit from Joseph Wilson?

I'd like to see that.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

10. The link is at the OP. nt

[in_cog_ni_to]

27. He/she is asking for YOU to provide a link for your bullshit accusation on Joe getting a "plum" job

in Hillary's administration. Provide a link, please.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

39. I don't know if he is. But he's acting like it. nt

[displacedtexan]

29. That's the "bullshit" you cite?

Oh, I get it now.

Thanks.

[1776Forever]

11. This was on Dec. 21, 2007 - Wonder if he has some different views now - Many minds are changing...

:shrug:

[in_cog_ni_to]

22. Don't count on it. Joe Wilson isn't the sheeple type.

He has a brain and uses it.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

41. I'd laugh my ass off watching some DU heads explode if he did.

:evilgrin:

[Divine Discontent]

226. they could have

but I think he really seems to believe HRC knows how to battle the GOP. I want to believe Obama can battle them, but he's not really vetted, and I hope there's no more skeletons that most voters probably know, but at the minimum they will be reminded repeatedly of the same old things we get in emails (his full name, his father's former religion, his former drug use, his skin tone).

I think whoever wins on Super Tuesday will garner mass support from the DEMS when all is said and done... we cannot take potentially 8 more years of GOP rule. They have bankrupted and 'raped' this country's emotions.

[in_cog_ni_to]

21. Joe Wilson is a DU HERO. Stop spewing your RW shit on this board.

He endorsed Hillary a long time ago and this article is from December. There IS a link in the OP...didn't bother to read it, eh. Didn't want to bother your pretty little head with FACTS?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

36. Even heroes can occasionally be full of shit.

Geez dude, I'm starting to see some of the "cult worship" you Clinton people are always accusing Obama people of in that post.

[elixir]

63. Then I guess you're a "hero" too.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

67. You're a bigger one. nt

[in_cog_ni_to]

69. That was so easy.

:7

[burgundy floppy hat]

80. Geez, dude, I see a mirror that can't discern it's own thought process...

really, come up with new lines, showing you're truly capable of understanding, and defending your argument.

You're writing the equivalent of DUH.

baaaa....baaaaa

[Annoyingly Logical]

251. good point

Politics at this stage of the primary is about defining your voice. From the looks of the political landscape, Obama has found his and all the venom on this board looks like a ham-handed attempt to get him and his supporters off message. It worked for a couple of weeks following Iowa but it looks like those days are over.

That being said, according to many posters here on DU, no Obama supporter should ever speak about anything except a detailed outline of Obama's post election plans complete with charts graphs and spreadsheets.

So for those who are curious of the man's agenda once elected, here is a URL to his Blueprint for America.

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/ObamaBlueprintForChange.pdf

[psychopomp]

253. And yours is a good point, too

You succinctly put things into perspective: "this stage of the primary is about defining your voice" and Sen. Obama has found his.

[bigbrother05]

126. Guess Cindy Sheehan never got trashed on DU?

If there was ever anyone that could be held up as a DU hero, it was Cindy. Am sure I'm not the only one that remembers the spewing and STFUs that were flung at her for speaking from her heart and personal experience re: Chavez. Joe Wilson has earned the right (all of us have the same right, by the way) to express his opinion and I respect that. We here at DU have self-identified as Democrats and are now locked in a nomination contest that is way outside of any box we've seen before. I will neither weep nor crow for the eventual candidate, but will buckle down and work to get our candidate elected. Endorsements are now coming hot and heavy from each camp, that is to be expect on the eve of such an important series of primaries/caucuses. I just hope that the level of hyperbole on both sides doesn't calcify their proponents into a position that is so hardened that the turns that will be necessary on both sides to win in the GE don't break the back of the party again.

Folks we have two remaining candidates, either one should make us proud to be a Democrat. Let's not do things that make them ashamed that we are.

[elixir]

62. "Joe Wilson, Secretary of State". I can only hope this comes true.

[burgundy floppy hat]

83. I've listened to him speak. Finally, someone who understands the complexities of Iraq, as compared

to the republicans, you know?

It isn't even ideology with them, it just goes over their stupid little republican heads, you know?

[krkaufman]

174. It's a December commentary he posted to Huffington Post. n/t

[TwilightGardener]

9. Joe Wilson's really clinging to his 15 minutes, isn't he?

[Medusa]

17. And then some. Remind me again why I'm supposed to care

who he thinks my next president should be and what his qualifications are exactly to be pushing an agenda for ANY candidate?

[TwilightGardener]

25. He was an ambassador--an honest one. That's nice and all, but as far as politics go, I

take his opinions about as seriously as I do has-been politicians, celebrities and singers. Which means I think "Oh, that's nice", and that's about it.

[truedelphi]

121. Thanks for that. After all,

It's "Joe" Wilson,not "Jesus" Wilson.

[krkaufman]

177. I'll listen to what he has to say ...

... but what he says appears to be a selective, partisan view and presentation of the facts.

My others posts in the thread, expressing what I feel are Wilson's hypocrisies and omissions...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4382933&mesg_id=4389346
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4382933&mesg_id=4389968

[SaveOurDemocracy]

188. Maybe this was meant for you:

avaistheone1 (1000+ posts) Mon Feb-04-08 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #37

59. Wilson was better than a nice diplomat. He was our ambassador to Iraq during the first Gulf war
After being directly threatened by Saddam Hussein not to shelter anyone at the American embassy under penalty of death, Wilson defied Hussein and sheltered 100 Americans. Wilson has received many awards including Secretary of State Distinguished Service Award,Department of State Superior Honor Award, Department of State Meritorious Honor Award,University of California, Santa Barbara Distinguished Alumnus Award, American Foreign Service Association William R. Rivkin Award Decorations, Commander in the Order of the Equatorial Star (Government of Gabon), Admiral in the El Paso Navy (El Paso County Commissioners) as well as BuzzFlash Wings of Justice Award, shared with wife, Valerie Plame (2005), Ron Ridenhour Award for Truth-Telling (from the Fertel Foundation and The Nation Institute.

I think Joe Wilson took a brave position on Gulf War 2 in order to protect our lives. I can see there are some people who are pretty ignorant and ungrateful about that.

Posted by wienerdoggie:
"He was an ambassador--an honest one. That's nice and all, but as far as politics go, I take his opinions about as seriously as I do has-been politicians, celebrities and singers. Which means I think "Oh, that's nice", and that's about it."

REALLY??

[madmom]

166. for the same reason others are supposed to care what Oprah thinks!..At least

Wilson is politically savvy and has foreign policy experience behind him.

[WinkyDink]

260. Same as any citizen's qualifications: being alive.

[KittyWampus]

20. No need to degrade his valor. It's unbecoming.

[TwilightGardener]

26. Er, I never got the Wilson love. Sorry. He kind of annoyed me.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

43. "Unbecoming"? Did he get knighted or something?

I didn't think we did stuff like that in this country. :shrug:

[Justice Is Comin]

89. And you are clinging to four years of

what you're going to be kicking yourself in the ass for.

Of course, that's if he even makes it past the republican wood chipper.

He's an arrogant, religion freak, inexperienced phony. But you would rather have American Idol winners for president.

You don't even know what you're asking for.

[Lucinda]

12. Thanks! K&R

[LiberalHeart]

14. Gee, Obama supporters, remember when Joe Wilson was God?

Looks like he's worth something only when he doesn't speak the truth as he knows it about your candidate's opposition.

[KittyWampus]

18. His standing up for the truth about Niger Documents is laudable. His opinion on Hillary is debatable

[truedelphi]

122. Same here. n/t

[displacedtexan]

19. Exactly what I was thinking.

I've never seen Wilson attacked before.

[in_cog_ni_to]

28. Oh, today, it's Joe Wilson. Last night it was Paul Krugman. Anyone that DARES to not worship Obama

is scum. Haven't you noticed?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

46. As opposed to the gracious respect shown to those who don't endorse Her Inevitableness.

:eyes:

Do I need to list the people who have been trashed by Clinton supporters here?

[in_cog_ni_to]

206. To get respect you need to earn it. Obama supporters haven't even come close. n/t

[KittyWampus]

16. Did her "deep and vital experience" include reading NIE concerning Iraq before voting to allow Bush

to use force at his discretion?

[WinkyDink]

76. Lucky For Obama he only had to mouth words and not vote.

[speedoo]

23. This is just a hit job. I admire Joe, but he can be excessive...

when he is partisan like this.

He says he never heard of Obama before he announced for the Senate. Unless Obama announced for his 2006 run before the 2004 Dem convention, this is hard to believe, since everyone knew about Obama after his remarkable speech at that convention.

I wish Joe had explained Senator Clinton's failure to read the Iraq Intelligence report, instead of attacking Obama so much.

[beachmom]

24. "I never heard of Barack Obama until he announced his intention to run for the Senate in the 2006

election." Huh? He ran in 2004. Kind of makes me question the whole article, when Joe didn't even get basic facts right.

[in_cog_ni_to]

31. LOL...of course.

:rofl:

[speedoo]

34. What's so funny? Answer the question about the facts.

The article you posted has an imporatant apparant flaw that casts doubt on the author's truthfulness and all you can do is LOL?

(edit - spell)

[in_cog_ni_to]

88. SO WHAT! Pick a few more nits, why don'tcha! How freakin' stupid.

:eyes: Dates are hard to remember in politics. WHO CARES. It has nothing to do with the freakin' story. Joe Wilson has been worshiped on DU FOREVER....until you Obama cultists showed up.

[speedoo]

101. I'm no Obama "cultist". You have no answer to the question, so I am dismissing....

both you and this article by Joe Wilson.

[krkaufman]

193. Personally, I've never "worshipped" Joe Wilson, or Holbrooke or Clark.

I preferred Clark as our candidate in 2004, largely for the same reason that I prefer Obama now. Clark had the foresight to be against the Iraq war, was outspoken in his opposition, and we need to nominate a candidate that provides a clear, consistent distinction from the Republican stance. We make the same mistake as we did in 2004 at our peril.

[tishaLA]

256. challenging facts is now "freakin' stupid"?

And up is down.

And, again, the record of voting "present" has been explained numerous times by Sen Obama and anyone else associated with his campaign. Bringing it up as a kind of political jab is simply a canard; it is more emotional than intellectual. Finally, the kind of language he uses to dismiss Sen Obama's relationship to his district--an "obscure but safe provincial political figure"--is precisely the kind of language used against him and Ms Plame-Wilson by the wingnuts.

I appreciate that he admires Sen Clinton. I do, too. And he does so because he admires her ability to work through the avenues of power in Washington and power's propinquity to her. The things that make her an attractive candidate to Amb Wilson, however, make her less attractive to me. I am more interested in an "intuitive" politician who is interested in rethinking how power works in Washington (and across America) than in someone who brilliantly navigates it. YMMV.

[bunkerbuster1]

117. A beyond-idiotic thing for Joe to write

He didn't watch the Democratic convention? At all?

[krkaufman]

190. Good catch! I knew Wilson was framing the statement to distort ...

... when Obama made his comments, and when he started receiving national attention, but totally missed the 2006 vs 2004 "flub" (let's call it).

Obama announced his Senate run in 2003, which, I expect, was largely enabled by his outspoken opposition to the Iraq war.

[donheld]

302. At the 2004 convention, Obama gave the 2004 keynote speech, Yet

Mr Wilson never heard of him till 2006? That doesn't add up.

[Maribelle]

30. Did you see that interesting comment bashing Obama from Miner Sam?

Bravo Joe.

In addition, as someone who judges a candidate's character by the honesty of their campaign, I cannot help but be deeply disappointed by Mr. Obama, whose campaing is 180 degrees from what he claims.While he repeats the same speech over and over and over again: that we should have a different political discourse, he uses dishonest Republican Talking Points against Senator Clinton after having been egged on to do so by Republican operatives.

His allowing himself to be pulled by the nose and manipulated by the likes of Chris Mathews and Tim Russert (to attack Senator Clinton with dishones assertions), and his campaign's use of the book by Psychologically abusive Republican operative Frank Lunz, is not only pathetic but a brainwash of an electorate that is too busy working to know the fact, and desparate for accurate information. What it boils down to is that through his dishonest campaign talk and operatives (along with Edaward and his) the Republicans are effectively in control of the a portion of the Democratic base.

The idea that after -- years of fighting the Radical right wing totallitarian Junta that divided us to garner our vote, so they could loot our treasury, and turn the government we pay to protect our interests into central headquarters for the Republican Party -- to equate Senator Clinton with this is a blatent outrage, by Obama and Edwards.

***snip***

As for those who repeat the Orwell/Goebbles typy that soil the name of Clinton name by putting it next to Bush, you are no different than the brainwashed Right wing base. There is no simillarity between Hillary Clinton and Mr. Bush, their policies, intelligence, experience and HEARTS are 180 could not be further than 180 degrees apart.

[Politicub]

32. Fantastic article - Kick!

It presents a well-reasoned argument. I urge people sitting on the fence to read it.

[robbedvoter]

33. H20 post on Hillary, Plame - why Wilson endorsed her:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4227814&mesg_id=4243925
I can say (he suppoerts Obama, btw)

that Senator Clinton was, in my opinion, one of the first people in Congress to understand what the implications of the Plame scandal really were. And she was a supporter of the Wilsons from the beginning. I think that Joseph Wilson's endorsing Senator Clinton is the result of this, and I consider it one of the more significant endorsements of the season.

[Straight Shooter]

38. Now you've done it. H20 Man is untouchable.

Good catch, robbedvoter. One of the icons of DU admires Joe Wilson. Isn't that inconvenient for those dissing Wilson on this thread, who probably know next to nothing about Wilson's bravery and credentials.

:thumbsup:

[murielm99]

270. Oh, I can't wait.

The Obamites are going to start flaming H20 Man.

:popcorn:

[gaiilonfong]

40. OLD NEWS

I stopped giving to the Wilsons because they have proven to be what many said...THEY are ReTHUGlican lite

[LiberalHeart]

45. With all due respect, that's just nutty.

[in_cog_ni_to]

72. Get your facts staright. They left the repuke party after their lives were destroyed by them.

:eyes:

[featherman]

47. I admire Joe Wilson and find no problem that he supports one candidate

or another. Many fine people I admire, including Bill Clinton, are supporting the Clinton candidacy. I don't see what the fuss is about. Chalk one up for the Clinton camp, consider it as you wish, and move on. No problem. Certainly does not make Joe a bad guy.

[goclark]

106. I totally agree

Joe Wilson is a great guy!

That does not mean that I have to bash him or the candidate of his choice.

America is still about me having my choice for President ~ :bounce:

Fired Up and Ready to go!

[rpannier]

303. Why what a..a...a Grown Up thing to say.

It's nice to see that civility is not dead here at DU.

I find many of the posts here attacking Joe Wilson like he's some nobody to be so damned immature.

I also have found the attacks on Obama supporters and other Clinton supporters to be sophomoric and idiotic.

I thought we were supposed to belong to the same Party, with many of the same ideals.

It's one thing to disagree with a position someone has taken.
It's another thing to denigrate people, make fun of their looks (The 'flat-face' comment about Shriver irked me no end) and the rest of this.


This complement comes to you via an Edwards supporter.

If this had been an OP, I'd have recommended it.

[libbygurl]

49. K & R. Thanks much! Surprised this was on HuffPost, though! nt

[Andromeda]

51. K&R

.

[Maribelle]

52. Barack Obama's supposed "intuitive sense" is no different from George W. Bush's "instincts" ...

and "gut feeling.

And citing this:

Fresh doubts over Barack Obama’s foreign policy credentials were expressed on both sides of the Atlantic last night, after it emerged that he had made only one brief official visit to London – and none elsewhere in Western Europe or Latin America.



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article3080794.ece

Nothing has really changed about Obama in recent days. Just more people singing kumbaya.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

96. * uses his "GUT" too

[cottonseed]

180. Are you suggesting the richest and most educated demographic is being bamboozled n/t

[Cameron27]

55. Joe Wilson was in the middle of the Iraq war controversy,

and we all know what the bushies did to his wife because of that fact. I think he's earned his credibility on this issue, so his opinion matters.

Thanks for posting. K&R

[Libby2]

61. I agree. Thanks for the post.

[Bluebear]

66. OMG now Obama Nation is dumping on Joe. Anyone who does not have the BAM must be vilified.

:silly:

[golddigger]

94. Yep! I'm starting to get this creepy feeling about Obama and

some his supporter.:scared:

[flyarm]

104. oh i saw it up front and personal in Iowa and So Carolina with the Edwards camp

it is not only frightening..it reminds me of little lord pissy pants cult of followers..only this time it is blue Kool aide.

its scarey...we called them Ipod kids ..and for good reason.

fly

[cottonseed]

184. Creepy?

I'm not exactly sure what's creepy about the most educated and well off voter demographic, the Kennedy's, the best and brightest congress persons and now a majority of democratic primary voters.

Are we talking Jonestown creepy?

[murielm99]

271. The Kennedys?

You mean the name that conjures Camelot, and the dreaded "D" word, political dynasty? Aren't you the people who are complaining about dynasties?

The younger Kennedys, Kathleen, Kerry and Bobby, Jr. all endorsed Clinton. Now just imagine if that were reversed: you Obamites would be complaining that Ted and the older, establishment types were endorsing HER, while the younger, hipper Kennedys were endorsing HIM.

Jonestown creepy? Yeah, some of you are.

[cottonseed]

299. I don't know who cries more, Hillary or her supporters.

I mean seriously. "Cultists", "Obamites", "you people". What in the world is hurting you and how can we fix it?

You know what's really sad. The Clinton's have found a way to even split people using the Kennedy's. Obama comes out with Teddy and Caroline and all of a sudden, I see commercials with Robert Jr. running. Are you kidding me? They couldn't run some ad with any of her other big name backers? Like for instance, Bob Kerrey or someone along those lines.

[murielm99]

304. I did not say "you people."

Go back and read what I said.

Hillary Clinton, the one who is running, not "the Clintons," can use any backers she pleases in her ads, just as Obama can.

You know what is really sad? This place was not nearly as divisive during the 2004 primary season. It was argumentative, but nothing like this. We did not have people signing up days before Super Tuesday to disrupt the forum, which is what we have now.

I'll tell you something else that is sad. You do not answer the arguments put to you by Clinton supporters. Instead, you attack personally.

Early in the primary season, there were few vocal Clinton supporters here. I think many people were still undecided, or they were supporting candidates who have now dropped out. There may have been some who did not speak up until they saw their candidate attacked relentlessly.

Then there are those, like me, who were leaning toward Obama initially and changed their minds. We saw his campaign up close and personal, and were turned off by the arrogance and the ignorance of many of his supporters. We saw what was happening when we came to political forums like DU for information and got nothing but smears and sarcasm.

I have seen many campaigns. Usually I see this type of nastiness only from the republicans. You still don't get it, do you? Like most lifelong Democrats, I will support the nominee. I will work for him or her, donating my time and money. Will you?

[nonconformist]

162. LOL... "the BAM".... tee hee

Amazing, isn't it?

[BlackVelvet04]

73. What a great article....

thanks.

[AtomicKitten]

92. I like the Wilsons and they are entitled to their opinion without it being waved or dissed.

I, however, happen to disagree. And that's okay.

[AX10]

93. k/r

Amazing how so many in Obamanation are turning on him now.
He was the supreme hero of DU just a month back.
:eyes:

[ElsewheresDaughter]

95. Obama supporters will hang their collective heads in 08 if he is the nom and loses to the Repuke

[Neshanic]

97. Wow. The Obamists heads are doing a Linda Blair spin. This kinda seals it.

If Joe Wilson, the guy that gave up everything to expose these guys says it is Hillary, well it just does not get more basic than that.

[in_cog_ni_to]

103. I agree. It says so much.

Now I'm going to be thinking about the Exorcist all day! The ~~~~~~~visual~~~~~~~ I just had of the cultists heads spinning.....

[cottonseed]

185. Quick question: what's up with the Obama supporters as crazy meme on DU?

It's kind of weird.

[murielm99]

272. Who used the word "crazy?"

Point out which post, please.

[midnight]

107. I'm voting for Edwards in my primary. I will be voting for a

Democratic President in the G.E. This is the best reason I have read to cast my vote for Hillary.

[ooglymoogly]

114. ditto that nt

[ooglymoogly]

112. Excellent info....all KR

[snooper2]

115. Nice, even Joe Wilson is capable of taking quotes out of context

"What would I have done? I don't know."

[Martin Eden]

116. No matter how Joe spins it, Hillary showed poor judgement in October 2002

Obama doesn't deserve any medals of courage for speaking out against it at the time, being merely an Illinois state representative in a liberal district. Nevertheless, Obama's speech was right on the money BEFORE the fiasco occurred.

Joe Wilson's argument that Obama was nowhere to be seen in Washington at that time is totally irrelevant. It's not the role of a state representative to lead the opposition in the federal government.

Obama wasn't in a position to vote for or against the IWR, but Hillary was, and she made the wrong decision on what was probably the most important vote of her senate career.

Sure, she can make the case that a credible threat of force was required to achieve the desirable result of getting the inspectors back in Iraq to resolve the WMD issue.

Of course, GW Bush acted in bad faith by invading before the inspectors were allowed to finish their work.

Here is a question for those who support Hillary in this matter:
Did you have any doubt whatsoever that once given the authority BUSH WOULD INVADE NO MATTER WHAT?

If, like me, you paid attention to the false rhetoric and the PNAC agenda, you would have had no doubt.

If Hillary didn't know this, she is much less intelligent than I think she is.

Her arguments for voting against the amendment requiring a 2nd vote before invading are unconvincing.

Am I the only one who cared passionately about that vote and felt betrayed by the Democrats who voted YES and should have known better?

I respect Joe Wilson and Wes Clark, and I will fully support Hillary if she is the nominee, but this issue is huge splotch on her record. If Hillary supporters want to bring it up in the context of this primary campaign, they had better expect replies from dedicated Democrats like myself who have not forgotten what it was like in the fall of 2002.

[Little Star]

179. So, if Obama were in a position to vote for or against the IWR,

there is nothing to support that he would have voted any different than Clinton and 75 other Dem Senators (except maybe his favorite Present). He said he would not have known how he would have voted, had he had the information, that they had shoveled at them. HE SAID HE DIDN'T KNOW HOW HE WOULD HAVE ACTUALLY VOTED.

[Martin Eden]

235. And that negates Hillary's vote ... HOW?

Barack Obama did NOT vote for or against the IWR because he was not in a position to do so. At the time of the vote, he made a very prescient speech in opposition to invading Iraq. It's pure speculation how Obama would have voted if he was in the US Senate at the time. There most certainly is nothing to criticize him for on that vote.

Hillary Clinton, on the other hand, voted YES to give Bush the authority to invade Iraq.

There's simply no getting around that FACT.

Everything else in regards to that specific vote being tossed around in this thread fades to irrelevance -- such as the number of times Obama voted "present" while in the Illinois legislature or US Senate.

By the way, there were NOT 75 Dem senators in October 2002.

[debbierlus]

118. Kick

I absolutely can't stand Obama.

[cooolandrew]

119. Sounds to me he is against Barack mostly because he doesn't know him.

[Annoyingly Logical]

160. I must be confused

So let me get this right. Obama is wrong on the Iraq issue because during the time he was an Illinois state Senator, he wasn't in D.C. making his objections to the war known to former Ambassador Wilson???

He is also doubly wrong about the war because he didn't vote against it in the senate (even though he hadn't been elected yet)?

.....and....Hillary was right about the war...because......how does that go again?

Oh well, I guess my worship of all things Obama has blinded me to the obvious logic of this argument. Serves me right.

[murielm99]

273. Yes, honey you are confused.

You need to stop setting up false dichotomies.

[Kermitt Gribble]

123. This is a great article

I haven't seen it before, thanks for posting!

Unbelievable some Obama supporters are trashing Joe Wilson.

[LittleClarkie]

127. This endorsement helps alittle, believe it or not.

Not what he has to say about Obama, but what he has to say about Hillary.

I support Sen. Obama, but if we do not prevail tomorrow, articles like this make me feel a bit better about the person I might have to support later.

[CTLawGuy]

128. I respect Joe Wilson,

but he like Bill Clinton should not be in the attack dog business. You don't see Oprah slamming Hillary.

[question everything]

129. And this, really is the crux of the matter

Obama was against the war in 2002, many were, but not where it counted, where the opinion had any consequences.

[Bluestar]

130. "Cowardly record of voting present"

Woo hoo, Joe Wilson. This says it all for me.

[LadyVT]

132. Fantastic.

[rosetta627]

134. What a load of crap

"Many of the most prominent early opponents of the war, including former General Wes Clark and former ambassador to the United National Richard Holbrooke support Senator Clinton for President, as do I. We do so because we know that she has the experience and the judgment that comes from having been in the arena for her entire adult life--and from close personal participation with her in the conduct of U.S. foreign policy. And we have trust in her to end the war in Iraq in the most responsible way, consistent with our national security interests."

Right. The woman who voted to authorize invasion for political gain can now be trusted to reverse course for the good of humankind (at least those humans she hasn't already helped kill).

You're only losing credibility Wilson. I agree that Obama is timid and conventional in his voting record. But that fact doesn't exonerate Clinton of her crimes.

[rosetta627]

135. Iraq as Metaphor

Gary Hart
Posted February 3, 2008 | 02:31 PM (EST)

"...
For those in the process of deciding between them for super Tuesday and beyond, they should be urged to consider this question very seriously. Those who decided to grant George W. Bush virtually unilateral authority to invade Iraq now must accept responsibility for its consequences. Votes have consequences. The consequences in Iraq are well over 30,000 American casualties , possibly one million Iraqi deaths, and at least a trillion American tax dollars spent on restructuring (much wasteful and corrupted) and not spent on U.S. schools, hospitals, and infrastructure.
...
Consider these two questions when deciding how to vote on Tuesday and beyond: Why did Senator Clinton give George W. Bush the authority to invade Iraq; and why can she not bring herself to admit she was wrong? Regarding the first, she now says that she was only authorizing war as a last resort. Others who voted as she did and now admit error, including Senators Biden, Dodd, and Edwards, do not make that argument. They admit they were wrong. As to the second question, the plausible excuses are few: she still thinks it was right; she thinks the operation was mismanaged; she clings to the hope that this vote and continued support for it will serve her well with conservatives in a general election; she believes it is a symbol of "strength."

Sorting through a great deal of obfuscation, Senator Clinton still seems to cling to the argument that Bush mismanaged the whole project, that it was worth doing but it was done badly. Thus, she seems to accept unilateral invasion as a first resort, even when intelligence, as it was in this case, is less than clear. She seems to be willing to follow policy makers, in this case neocons, who had a publicly announced imperial agenda in the Middle East. And she permits the impression to grow that "triangulation," in matters of war, requires placing protection of political career over protection of the national interest.
...
This nation needs a president who will question the conventional wisdom, who will exercise skepticism concerning foreign entanglements, who will have the courage to resist pressure from the narrow-minded bellicose right, who will admit to error when major mistakes are made, and who can look farther over the horizon than most of us. Most of all, we need a president who can restore America's honor, respect, and moral authority in the world.

That president is not Senator Clinton. That president is Barack Obama."

[katty]

136. a fair comment and not an overly gushy endorsement of Clinton...

Joe has credibility and he has certainly stood by his wife during her horrific, career ending abuse by bushco. He has been out front from the start as a major adversary of the current administration--he has been up close and personal in the fight with the criminals in the WH.

[MISSDem]

137. After reading this I, an Obama supporter, am having second thoughts.

But, if we are truly going to select the most experienced candidate why did we overlook Joe biden and Bill Richardson?

[in_cog_ni_to]

152. Well, I for one, was hoping Dodd would be our nominee! I went from Kucinich, to Dodd, to Edwards and

now I'm supporting Hillary because of the 2 remaining candidates, she has the most experience BY FAR, but Dodd was my favorite candidate.:(

[Straight Shooter]

228. Wow, I didn't know that. Greetings, fellow Dodd supporter!

He's the first one I donated to, and then I donated again. Then I made all my friends donate to him, lol.

Today I donated to Hillary.

Amazing. GMTA. :)

[in_cog_ni_to]

326. :) I love Dodd. I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY wanted to vote for him.

His filibuster of the FISA Bill did it for me.....and the fact he would decriminalize Marijuana helped too.;)

You're right! GMDTA! :)

[mzmolly]

140. I have a great deal of respect for Mr. Wilson.

Thanks for sharing this.

[shireen]

141. he makes a compelling case, and I have deep respect for Clark's judgment

which is why i'm still on the fence.

i wish i could take the two candidates, and squish them together into one person so we have the best of both in one candidate.

[Raffi Ella]

144. Thank you for posting this.

This is a profound acknowledgement of a crucial issue in this election.

I urge people to read it with an open mind and think about what is being said.

If Obama is Our Nominee I will campaign for him just as I would for Clinton because the Party comes first for me but I truly believe with all my heart that Clinton is the Person we need in office.

This article from this particular man underscores why I passionately support Hillary Clinton for President.

Thank you for posting this.I will use it to back up my support of Hillary when I go out canvassing this evening.

[in_cog_ni_to]

153. You're very welcome!

:hi:

[fjc]

147. Add up the years of "experience" in the WH since say Reagan,

than ask yourselves how the hell we got here. I have to say, I respect experience. No question. But all that experience has gotten us into the worst shape as a country in my memory.

[AntiFascist]

148. Hillary Clinton does seem to have a history of experience...

going back to her days of assisting drug-running efforts during Iran-Contra. Certainly, these efforts assist CIA black ops programs and are likely continuing today with the leaks and whistleblowing that are occuring with respect to heroin trafficking out of Afghanistan and Turkey. I wonder what Joe Wilson thinks of that, or is it a subject that is best swept under the rug?

[in_cog_ni_to]

150. Okay. Please post links that prove Hillary assisted drug running efforts. And don't use your RW

sources.

[AntiFascist]

164. OK I'll post several, and before you start complaining about right-wing smear....

efforts, keep in mind that Republicans would prefer to focus on Whitewater and Monica Lewinsky, and they wouldn't dare touch these sources with a 10 foot pole:

Interview with Roger Morris:

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0707/S00058.htm


Also, this article by Catherine Austin Fitts:

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0709/S00059.htm

There is a standard line you hear when you try to talk to people in Washington, D.C. about the flood of narcotics operations and money laundering in Arkansas during the 1980s. “Oh, those allegations were entirely discredited,” they say. This is not so. Thanks to numerous journalists and members of the enforcement community, the documentation on Mena drug running and the related money laundering is quite serious and makes the case that the government was engaged or complicit in significant narcotics trafficking. This includes the various relationships to employees of the National Security Council, the Department of Justice and the CIA under Vice President Bush’s leadership and to then Governor of Arkansas, Bill Clinton and a state agency, the Arkansas Development and Finance Agency (ADFA). ADFA was a local distributor of U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) subsidy and finance programs and an active issuer of municipal housing bonds. One of its law firms included Hillary Clinton and several members of Bill Clinton’s administration as partners, including Deputy White House Counsel Vince Foster and Associate Attorney General Webster Hubbell.

Former senior editor for Forbes, Roger R. Norman. I would recommend reading through this entire page:

http://192.80.61.73/view/1996/norman.html

...

The answer seems painfully clear; a cover-up of immense proportions for reasons of "national security". And don't expect Whitewater prober Kenneth Starr to spill any beans. He was in-house counsel to Reagan Attorney General William French Smith at the time the Inslaw PROMIS software was expropriated for intelligence use. Later, as Solicitor General, he recused himself from an Inslaw-related matter without explanation. It seems likely Starr would have been personally involved in launching the covert bank spy effort, which Washington is still so nervous to keep secret.

On edit: Forgot the link to the Fitts' article.

[ClintonTyree]

149. STOP! STOP! You're making the warm fuzzies go away.....

Obama has HOPE on his side! :sarcasm: Just keep hoping and everything will be alright. O8)

Gee, I hope I win the lottery this week. :shrug:

[VotesForWomen]

155. well put, Joe. nt

[krkaufman]

156. I'm sad for Wilson. He perpetuates the same distortion on Obama's Iraq war position ...

... as Bill Clinton would later.

What Wilson writes... In 2004, he (Obama) said about the 2002 congressional Authorization for the Use of Military Force: "I'm not privy to Senate intelligence reports. What would I have done? I don't know."

What Obama actually said, with Wilson's omissions bolded... "'But, I'm not privy to Senate intelligence reports,' Mr. Obama said. 'What would I have done? I don't know. What I know is that from my vantage point the case was not made'"

It must be noted that Wilson's and Bill Clinton's distortion is standard Rovian tactics, attacking the strength of your opponent to muddle public perception. (see 2004 Swiftboating attacks on Kerry; Exxon-Mobil muddling of climate change issue, etc.)

Obama's *judgment* was better than Hillary Clinton's; and recent statements by Hillary Clinton that she trusted Bush to leverage the Iraq resolution in a certain way now also call her judgment of people into question.

Wilson's repeated characterizing Obama's judgment as "intuition" and characterizing Obama as George W Bush-redux, in his commentary, makes Wilson look petty, while Wilson's avoiding all the reasons for Clinton's vote on the Iraq resolution and subsequent Kyl/Lieberman vote, indicating no improvement in Clinton's judgment, makes Wilson look nonobjective and simply partisan.

p.s. This is all a bit of a rehash, given Wilson's commentary was posted in December. Interesting to note that Bill Clinton's distortion had previously been used by Clinton surrogates.

[nonconformist]

157. Fantastic article! K & R! nt

[JNelson6563]

158. Some good points from Ambassador Wilson

who, IMO, is a great American.

Julie

[Sadie5]

173. Don't drink the blue kool-aid

Obama has come out of nowhere and expects to run this country in it's present state? The article says what I have been saying for sometime that Obama lacks experience to even vote anything other than present. Let him learn in the next 8 years and then you will have an argument. Edwards is out so Hillary is my choice and here is hoping that the kook-aid drinkers wise up.

[JNelson6563]

255. Was your comment meant for me??

I said it was a good article and agreed with the points. Your comment doesn't make a whole lot of sense in reply to what I said.

Julie

[mnhtnbb]

165. Wow. Quite an article. Good for him.

[Hekate]

167. Aw geez, I wish Joe Wilson had written this just a bit earlier. His opinion actually matters to me.

[demo dutch]

170. Now there's an opinion from someone who's at the heart of the Iraq situation!

[Deep13]

175. C'mon, this guy couldn't even find yellow-cake in Africa!

:hide:

:evilgrin:

[SaveOurDemocracy]

191. LOLLL...

:spank:

[REDFISHBLUEFISH]

186. KICK!

[McCamy Taylor]

194. A pattern is emerging here. Clinton gets the endorsement of people whose reputations need no boost

the ones that everyone already knows are smart, fighting the good fight, not afraid to tackle the Bush-Cheney machine and speak out fearlessly.

Obama is getting a lot of celebrity endorsements and endorsements from politicians who are trying to keep themselves relevant (like Kerry) by associating themselves with a hot, up and coming politician.

I know I will get flamed for this, but it is true. Even the Kennedy clan does this. They allied with Gov. Terminator to increase their flagging sex appeal. Now they are joining with Obama so that they will be relevant.

Endorsements like Wilson's and Krugman's article on health care---those mean a lot more to me than what Ted Kennedy says.

[Iceburg]

204. I agree there is a pattern emerging ...

celebrities vs thinkers and doers.
Even the Kennedy family (with the exception of Ted) is split along those lines.
The doers of the clan -- Bobby Kennedy Jr. -- a man who has devoted his whole life to the single cause of defending America's environment stands by Hillary, as does Kerry Kennedy (a human rights activist) and Kathleen Kennedy Townsend (former Lt. gov of Maryland)

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-kennedy29jan29,0,721215.story

(BTW -- great post on health care!)

[AX10]

205. I agree with you for the most part.

RFK jr and Kathleen Kennedy Townsend are with Clinton though.

[Straight Shooter]

225. RFK Jr. is a deeply involved activist in environmental and endangered species issues.

National Resources Defense Council being the most prominent one which springs to mind. It's the only environmental/animal organization to which I donate, because they are a force to be reckoned with when it comes to taking on the bush administration and they run a highly efficient organization.

http://www.nrdc.com Check out their Biogems section. It's beautiful.

[derby378]

195. For all this talk of "experience," she doesn't have the kind of experience I'm looking for

She has experience in trusting Bush to do the right thing, which we all know is suicide. If I knew back in November 2002 that Saddam Hussein was no threat to Kuwait and Israel (let alone America), why didn't Clinton?

[zulchzulu]

196. So Joe sides with a sucker for Bush's lies over someone who saw through them

I understand that Joe Wilson is carrying water for Bill since they used to work together, but this old article brings back the point that was it Obama's responsibility to walk up to Joe Wilson and wave at him and say he, like millions in the World, was against Bush's war.

I like Joe. I met him in 2004 at the Madison Kerry office and he is a fantastic guy. But he has to know that Obama didn't have to present himself as someone against the war. The line would have been about three miles long.

[jillan]

208. He needs to be out there stumping for her.

[in_cog_ni_to]

212. I hope he does! He's a great guy! n/t

[flying_wahini]

219. This does it ; changing over to HRC

when I listen to Obama's message I like the feel good words, but
think I am going to have to vote for Hillary.
He goes on and on about change, but offers nothing concrete.
no plan - he needs to make more concrete plans.

and no, can't say that I trust her anymore than i trust Obama but
feel that she knows the ins and outs and lot better......

she may well get beat in November, and I won't be disappointed if I
get to vote for Obama.....

but a person has to vote the way they feel.... don't they?

with all this backbiting going on here at DU - I feel
torn. this is not the way it is supposed to be...

I understand and can appreciate both sides.

[in_cog_ni_to]

240. She will WIN in November! The RW religious, HATE McCain. The anti-illegal immigrants

HATE McCain. The PRO-Bush tax cuts, HATE McCain. The anti-war HATE McCain. Who's left to vote for him? Their hate for him runs pretty deep. They hate Hillary, but they hate McCain MORE because "he ruined their precious repuke party." Hillary will win and win BIG!

[Freida5]

232. Thank you Joe Wilson for pointing out the facts and the risks of voting for Obama

[ElsewheresDaughter]

233. KICK!

[Control-Z]

237. K&R n/t

[mtnsnake]

239. Thank you, in_cog_ni_to for posting this. All I gotta say is WOW

:thumbsup:

[in_cog_ni_to]

241. You're welcome! Pretty impressive, isn't it? Very powerful stuff.

:)

[mtnsnake]

243. Oh is it ever, especially considering the source

:thumbsup:

[MagsDem]

242. Awesome article -- Joes speaks the truth!

This is what so many of us that have been paying attention to Obama have been saying.

[sellitman]

244. I respect this guy's opinion more than most.

Tomorrow I get to choose. My choice will probably be picked in the booth. This post really got me thinking. I have been leaning toward Obama but now I'm not sure?

Hummmmm?

[Guaranteed]

247. LOL- 102 recs on a pro-Clinton thread.

Suuuuure, guys! :eyes:

Are you running out of socks yet?

[Uben]

248. Just made it 104

I respect this man and his wife more than most in Washington.

[CaptJasHook]

252. Point! Hillary Clinton

Cool. When Joe speaks, people listen.

[mmm413]

259. I'm not optimistic about Obama

beating the GOPhers. I don't think he has the stomach for it, yet. He may in 10-15 years.

[in_cog_ni_to]

278. There's no way he can win in the GE. They will tear him to shreds. n/t

[Beartracks]

262. K&R Well written analysis n/t

[bowens43]

264. More bullshit and desperation.

Hillary is a relic of an ugly era in our country's history. A shameless opportunist who will say anything to anyone at anytime to get what she believes she is owed. She is the problem, not the solution. Just another tool of the DLC. Hillary cares about Hillary and about power. That's it. She's a war supporter and a flip flopper. No thanks

[Major Hogwash]

265. Yeah, but Hillary is a warmonger, Joe. Whether you had heard of him or not, we heard from her!

And that's the fuckin' difference!

Oh, and not to rub it in or anything, I hadn't heard of you before 2003!

[FlyingSquirrel]

266. Make that 114 recs from an Obama-leaner

Joe Wilson is someone whose opinion I greatly respect, and few can argue that Foreign Policy will be probably the single most important thing a new president will need to address.

Point, HRC.

[DemGa]

267. This is powerful indeed...nt

[CONN]

268. thanks for the post

[johnnydrama]

274. big wilson fan

Obama is being hit here for being honest. He couldn't be 100% sure what he would have done if he had seen everything everybody else did.

But now we know there was nothing to see, and there is excactly 0 evidence that the senate had any evidence that would have changed Obama's mind.

What big smoking gun was it that made 1/2 the Dem senators vote no?

If you took the evidence at face value you vote no. If you thought politically you voted yes.

Plain and simple.

[dailykoff]

275. Nice guy, but he's up to his neck in CIA.

So's his lovely but "clueless" (uh-huh) wife, and so are Hilly and Billy.

Not buying it, but then I haven't bought any such crap since I figured out who took down the Trade Center and it wasn't A-rabs.

[in_cog_ni_to]

279. You do not become a CIA agent if you are CLUELESS. Valerie threatens your manhood.

Too bad. Deal with it.

[dailykoff]

285. Yeah that makes sense.

Not.

[ToughLuck]

276. Not much of a "real"story ..Hillary is a hawk...who is he kidding

Experience, I don't think so, 35 years ago she was in law school.No matter how you slice it, she voted yes on Iraq, Obama said no...no amount of spin will change that.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

297. kick

[Stand and Fight]

305. Now this is an endorsement that matters.

If he can forgive Hillary Clinton her vote on the IWR, then anyone with half a brain should be able to. Three cheers for the Wilsons!

[Sherman A1]

306. I believe this to be informative and interesting

I am still voting for Obama in the primary and the Dem nominee in the G.E., but this is good information and I respect the Ambassador's opinion. I try to respect everyone's opinion... I don't always agree, but they are entitled to make up their own minds.

[judasdisney]

307. Stoop So Low To Reach So High

If a candidate is so great and amazing, he or she wouldn't need to resort to smear and attack for recommendation.

Look at what the Clintons and their surrogates have had to resort to. Bill's sunny optimism is gone. And the Clintons trashed it all themselves.

[Apollo11]

308. This guy can't even get his facts right!

From the article above:
"I never heard of Barack Obama until he announced his intention to run for the Senate in the 2006 election"

2006????

Hello!!!

Try 2004! B-)

Now - why should I take the rest of the article seriously??? :eyes:

Edit: I see beachmom made the same point in post #24 above.

[MrSlayer]

310. Vote for the "Ultimate Insider" seems to be the message from Wilson here.

That's quite a different approach really. I respect Joe and I love Clark but I'm still not for Hillary. I'm not for Obama either. My primary isn't until late April anyway so it doesn't matter.

[xchrom]

314. recommend

[bidenista]

315. good piece by a true progressive. nt

[ShortnFiery]

316. "Joe Wilson" = spoiled Clintonian operative hoping for another "lauded" position.

Makes me wonder if Valerie was really acting on "the up and up." :shrug:

With regard to both the Bush and Clinton Crime Families, *NOBODY IS INNOCENT.*

Joe Wilson shows now what a shameless "Shill for Hill" he is ... Bravo! Clintonian crone duo strikes again. :thumbsdown:

[Tarc]

318. A lot of gall coming from someone safely tucked away behind a computer screen

Wilson and Plame risked career (and life in Plame's case) to expose the deceit of the Bush administration. They have done more to advance this party than the likes of you will ever hope to accomplish.

[ShortnFiery]

323. No one is "safe" as much as Joe Wilson is, just perhaps, sporting a "hidden agenda?"

:evilgrin:

[dingaling]

317. Joe Wilson

is only trying to defend Hilary. If Obama didnt have access to the information, what about all the other democratic senators that had access to the same information as Hilary? Why did they vote against the war. What about the Levin amendment? Why did she vote against it? All Joe Wilson is trying to do is insult Obama's intelligence. What about all the ordinary folk that opposed the war? If Hilary couldnt see what most of the world saw (the deception), she is not, in my opinion fit to be President.

[whistle]

321. Excellent endorsement

[ShortnFiery]

322. Yes, "Joe and Val" are as politically ROYAL as "Bill and Hill?"

Oh brother, when will The People get their say? Two more shills for Hill. :eyes:

[Evergreen Emerald]

324. nice article

Joe Wilson is exactly correct.

[opihimoimoi]

325. There are peeps who listen....there are those who don't...when Joe speaks, I listen..

[Hutzpa]

328. Joe, let me state categorically....I DON'T TRUST YOU!

you're part of this mess created by George Bush, YOU where one of the major provider
of information for this crap that has cost the electorate trillions of dollars, you
stated in your article;

Yesterday the London Times reported central questions about Senator Obama's shocking dearth of international experience: "Fresh doubts over Barack Obama's foreign policy credentials were expressed on both sides of the Atlantic last night, after it emerged that he had made only one brief official visit to London - and none elsewhere in Western Europe or Latin America." It also reported: "Mr. Obama had failed to convene a single policy meeting of the Senate European subcommittee, of which he is chairman."

Now, for those who don't know, London Times is a Conservative newspaper, so your point is based on a Conservative talking point, whoopee!! :rofl: its like listening to Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh's thrash talking about the democratic candidates, with you using that attack on a candidate you don't agree with, what do you expect, I'm little bit dissapointed....well not really, 'desperate times calls for desperate measures'.

Now, Senator Obama echoes and reflects the same attitude of contempt for "on the ground experience." Acting on his superior "intuition" he has proposed unilateral bombing of Pakistan and unstructured summits without preconditions with adversaries such as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Kim Jong Il. As we have learned, the march of folly is paved with good but naïve intentions.

What surprises me is, the total disregard of facts, and using obtrusion on DUers, take the paragraph above, you making a case that Obama will srike Pakistan and Iran without preconditions, but YOUR candidate voted for military action against Iran.

How can you convinced me this is not a another smear campaign by the machine, yes I know its hard to let go when you're comfortable.



:grr: :grr: :banghead:

[amborin]

333. is Obama hypocritical?

The Boston Globe

August 9, 2007 Thursday
THIRD EDITION

PACs and lobbyists aided Obama's rise - Data contrast with his theme

BYLINE: Scott Helman Globe Staff

Using campaign appearances, e-mails to supporters, and Iowa TV ads, Illinois Senator Barack Obama
has repeatedly reminded voters that his presidential campaign does not accept contributions from lobbyists or political action committees, casting his decision as a noble departure from the ways of Washington.

He hit the theme hard again in Tuesday's Democratic debate in Chicago as he sought to capitalize on rival Hillary Clinton's remark last weekend that taking lobbyists' cash is acceptable because they "represent real Americans."

"The people in this stadium need to know who we're going to fight for," Obama said at Soldier Field. "The reason that I'm running for president is because of you, not because of folks who are writing big checks, and that's a clear message that has to be sent, I think, by every candidate."

But behind Obama's campaign rhetoric about taking on special interests lies a more complicated truth. A Globe review of Obama's campaign finance records shows that he collected hundreds of thousands of dollars from lobbyists and PACs as a state legislator in Illinois, a US senator, and a presidential aspirant.

In Obama's eight years in the Illinois Senate, from 1996 to 2004, almost two-thirds of the money he raised for his campaigns - $296,000 of $461,000 - came from PACs, corporate contributions, or unions, according to Illinois Board of Elections records. He tapped financial services firms, real estate developers, healthcare providers, oil companies, and many other corporate interests, the records show.

Obama's US Senate campaign committee, starting with his successful run in 2004, has collected $128,000 from lobbyists and $1.3 million from PACs, according to the Center for Responsive Politics, a nonprofit organization that tracks money in politics. His $1.3 million from PACs represents 8 percent of what he has raised overall. Clinton's Senate committee, by comparison, has raised $3 million from PACs, 4 percent of her total amount raised, the group said.

In addition, Obama's own federal PAC, Hopefund, took in $115,000 from 56 PACs in the 2005-2006 election cycle out of $4.4 million the PAC raised, according to CQ MoneyLine, which collects Federal Election Commission data. Obama then used those PAC contributions - including thousands from defense contractors, law firms, and the securities and insurance industries - to build support for his presidential run by making donations to Democratic Party organizations and candidates around the country.

Obama spokeswoman Jen Psaki said that after seeing the influence of lobbyists firsthand during his two years in Washington, Obama decided before he entered the presidential race that he would take a different approach to fund-raising than he had in the past.

"He's leading by example and taking steps that he feels need to be taken on the national stage to clean up the undue influence of Washington lobbyists on the policies and priorities of Washington," Psaki said. "His leadership on this issue is an evolving process."

Psaki said Obama believes that healthcare lobbyists have blocked progress toward universal health coverage, and that oil company lobbyists have blocked badly needed changes to America's energy policies.

Though Obama has returned thousands of dollars in campaign contributions from registered federal lobbyists since he declared his candidacy in February, his presidential campaign has maintained ties with lobbyists and lobbying firms to help raise some of the $58.9 million he collected through the first six months of 2007. Obama has raised more than $1.4 million from members of law and consultancy firms led by partners who are lobbyists, The Los Angeles Times reported last week. And The Hill, a Washington newspaper, reported earlier this year that Obama's campaign had reached out to lobbyists' networks to use their contacts to help build his fund-raising base.

This activity, along with Obama's past contributions from lobbyists and PACs, has drawn fire from opposing campaigns. Some political analysts say Obama, by casting himself as an uncorrupted good-government crusader, has set himself up for charges of hypocrisy.