Who has a higher raw IQ (intelligence), Hillary or Obama? Hillary failed the BAR EXAM in DC

[synesthesia]

Keep in mind, Hillary failed her bar exam in DC

Obama was magna cum laude, president Harvard Law Review

Don't we decry the freepers for being anti-intellectual, and not voting on the smartest candidate.

Hillary got into Yale, but that might have just been from hard work and resume, and not raw intelligence, since the bar exam is not really that difficult.

Why not vote for the smarter person? Would Obama really fail the bar exam when so many mediocre law students pass it every year?

source: http://mediamatters.org/items/200706010006

Clinton acknowledged in her autobiography Living History (Simon & Schuster, 2003) that she failed the D.C. bar exam and suggested that this event influenced her decision to go to Arkansas

On November 3, the District of Columbia Bar Association notified Hillary that she had failed the bar exam. For the first time in her life she had flamed out -- spectacularly, given the expectations of others for her and even more so her own. Of 817 applicants, 551 of her peers had passed, most from law schools less prestigious than Yale. She kept this news hidden for the next thirty years

[Clintonista2]

1. I like apples

[nightrider767]

2. They are both incredibly bright!

That cannot be disputed.

[goldcanyonaz]

3. Does your mommy know you're playing on her computer?

[Colobo]

4. Hillary failed her bar exam?

[Occam Bandage]

6. She took the AR and DC bar exams. Passed AR, failed DC. Whatever.

[Colobo]

12. It's not a big deal, anyway.

[synesthesia]

8. yes

she failed

from mediamatters

http://mediamatters.org/items/200706010006

Clinton acknowledged in her autobiography Living History (Simon & Schuster, 2003) that she failed the D.C. bar exam and suggested that this event influenced her decision to go to Arkansas

[liberalnurse]

33. Obama had Affirmative Action to help him through his exam.

We know how that works.:smoke:

[Mass]

5. How old are you?

[onehandle]

7. My cat's breath smells like cat food. nt

[mtnsnake]

16. The sky is high so birds can fly

[MyNameGoesHere]

37. Haha Hi Ralph. n/t

[Occam Bandage]

9. Both are very intelligent, and certainly more intelligent than you.

[scheming daemons]

10. I'm for Obama... but both are smarter than McCain....

...

[mtnsnake]

11. Yeah, Hillary is a real dummy and you're obviously a rocket scientist (snicker)

[Catherine Vincent]

13. Freeper!

[mtnsnake]

19. Without a doubt

They'll stoop to anything to make sure Hillary isn't the one they have to face next Fall.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

14. Clinton voted for the IWR.

That's the only intelligence test that matters to me.

[Perky]

15. This is a stupd questionb to ask..

[woolldog]

17. it doesn't matter

They are both very bright. Failing the bar exam means nothing.

The bar exam isn't difficult intellectually, but it does require you to study and to memorize the law. It's especially difficult if you went to a law shcool where "black letter law" wasn't emphasized. Even if you are very bright, you can easily fail if you don't take it seriously and do the memorization.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

18. John Kenedey Jr failed the Bar 4 times...since you're saying it means something

[arewenotdemo]

48. He obviously wasn't the sharpest.

Seriously.

[itcfish]

20. OMG Now Obama is smarter than Hillary?

Is there anything the Obama supporters won't say?

[magatte]

41. Dude, he IS smarter than Hillary, no offense (nt.)

[Zynx]

45. My guess is if they took 5 IQ tests, the results would be different each time.

There is no appreciable difference between the two.

[Zynx]

21. This is so disgustingly elitist that I am glad you don't represent our party.

This sort of talk would get us 35% of the vote at best.

[cloudythescribbler]

24. In fact, being thought of as 'more brainy' by the public is probably a negative

otherwise W could never even GET CLOSE enough to being elected to have stolen Florida in 2000.

I know this sounds even MORE elitist, but you know what? I prefer to have smarter presidents (as Bill Clinton was, even though I despised his throwing progressives including myself under a bus), rather than the likes of EITHER Bush (especially W), Reagan, or Ford, for starters.

It may be unpopular to say, but I REJECT the charge that it is "elitist". Why SHOULDN'T we get the smarter president, to formulate more intelligent policies eg to counter terrorism; although what is key (as in FDR) is a sense of political realism and not just 'egghead' intelligence.

[Zynx]

42. Smarter is not always better.

Herbert Hoover probably had greater raw mental power than FDR. Dewey probably had more raw mental power than Truman. Romney is probably smarter than any of the other Republicans and he is by far the most frightening.

I also do not judge a person's intelligence by which elite eastern school they went to.

[cloudythescribbler]

43. Well, as for elite eastern schools, you have Harvard v Yale; generally SMARTER IS BETTER (though ...

not necessarily more popular). I am not sure about the specific examples cited, as there are different KINDS of intelligence. FDR was BRILLIANT in my view, even if not academic.

As for presidents we have Ford, Reagan, TWO Bushes versus Carter & Clinton. I see a pattern -- and dumber isn't necessarily better either.

[Zynx]

44. Ford and Reagan were much smarter than people gave them credit for.

Ford in particular. Also, in my view, Ford was a better president than Carter. Do not confuse articulate with intelligent.
EDIT: Ford got into both Michigan and Yale Law Schools. Did you?

Intelligence, unless it is far down the spectrum, is not a great indicator of presidential performance.

My point about the elite eastern schools is that there was a presumption in the OP that those schools are simply far superior to other schools in the country. I dispute this assertion heavily.

[racaulk]

22. OFFS. DFTT.

:eyes:

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

23. Who is this "we" you speak of?

[no_hypocrisy]

25. Bar Exams and grade cum from law school have little bearing on

intelligence and judgment. I have struggled with both experiences and have found that many classmates in law school had higher cums b/c they were in exceptional study groups or a study group at all, and those who passed the bar exam were better prepared through commercial review classes and familiarity with the bar exam format.

I would stick to the proposals of both Obama and Clinton as well as their past words on the record and their votes. They're both intelligent, period. And I have met many a wise fool in my day who lacked common sense and wisdom from failure.

[lurky]

26. Two of the most highly intelligent people I have seen speak.

Intelligence will not be an issue if either wins the White House.

I say this as an Obama supporter and a non-lawyer, but my impression of bar exams is that they measure how well the testee has studied and memorized the local statutes, in addition to general legal principles. Not necessarily a good measure of intelligence.

[bitchkitty]

27. So freaking WHAT?

The people on this board are acting like morons. My dog is more intelligent than some of you, and here you go yammering about IQ tests and bar exams, trying to make this woman look stupid? I don't like Hillary Clinton, but stupid she's not.

Posting topics like this, however - now THAT's stupid!

[kestrel91316]

28. Here's the only intelligence test I care about for the Dem nominee:

is our nomineee at least ten times smarter than Bush?

That shouldn't be difficult, of course. My CATS are smarter than Bush.

[tammywammy]

29. This is one of the silliest things I've seen on here

And that says a lot.

[MethuenProgressive]

30. Who gives a fucking shit about college days test scores?

You're posting shit from LAST FUCKING JULY??
You need a fucking life.

[tammywammy]

32. Maybe next we'll get their SAT or ACT scores

How'd they do on their US History exams. LOL. :crazy:

[Occam Bandage]

51. I'd actually like to see their LSATs. I think that's relevant.

[rucky]

31. I'm not going to play this game. n/t

[Vinca]

34. They're both very intelligent. Compared to Bush their geniuses. nt

[Didereaux]

35. thinking on your feet is a good indicator...Clinton wins in that case. See debates

[Occam Bandage]

50. Well, two replies to that one.

First, debates are generally entirely "scripted;" they practice canned responses to every question imaginable. Secondly, she's not a particularly sharp debater. She's solid, but there's no spark; she never has anything but the memorized on-point response.

[question everything]

36. Oh for crying out loud

A success in exam is not an indication of either intelligence or a fit for a job.

I have hired many young people out of college who were C average and were better performers than the As.

[Sir Jeffrey]

38. Failing a bar exam does not mean you are dumb...

or even a poor attorney.

A lot of the applicants that fail the bar have no clue how to take a bar exam-style essay. The law schools typically use a different testing method, so many applicants have their first exposure to bar examinations when they take the actual bar...which is not good.

Another point about bar exams: It is not like you have a lot of time or space to make your point, so if you tend to elaborate your points too much you run out of space. You have to show your reasoning on the essays, which is tough if you tend to just jump to the conclusion by intuition. Even if your conclusion is right, the graders just want to see how you reached your conclusion. Even though in the real world your clients would appreciate you immediately reaching the proper conclusion, the graders want to see your thought process. It actually punishes those who think really fast because they have to slow down their minds and try to explain their thought process in a completely alien process.

I suspect Hillary had that type of problem with the bar. She seems to be an intuitive thinker, and as a fellow intuitive thinker I understand how fucking hard it is to slow down my brain and explain how I can go from point a to point d then to point z. And I say this as an Obama supporter.

[LadyVT]

39. They are both...

at or above 130 (the baseline IQ of students entering graduate school across the country). Because 130 is so high (and so few score that high), there is very little difference between them.

[Vektor]

40. That alone says little - several mitigating factors could have applied.

Stress, exhaustion, illness, inadequate preparation, test anxiety, etc...

A pass or fail alone hardly tells the whole story. Let's be fair here.

[Zynx]

46. I got 97% on my three calculus midterms and blew my final out my ass.

I got a 40% on that thing. I underestimated it to my peril and I was tired from three other finals and was suffering a nervous breakdown. I couldn't think straight. If I took it again, I would probably get a 95%.

[amandabeech]

47. Yale does not teach black-letter law of the type that can be memorized.

Yale teaches theory, philosophy, effectiveness and history of law.

It simply does not teach the detailed laws and rules that are tested on the bar exam, unlike many law schools.

Yale expects that its students will memorize what is necessary while taking the bar review course and studying for the bar.

Yale turns out many superb lawyers, but not all of them pass all the bars all the time.

In fact, Yale doesn't have such a great pass rate due to its emphasis on exploring law rather than memorizing all the specific rules that the bar exam tests.

[cd3dem]

49. I graduated summa cum laude and have been out of a job for 2 years!