Demonizing the uninsured

[Jed Dilligan]

During the healthcare plan arguments yesterday, I noticed a disturbing dark side to the pro-mandate arguments. There's this right wing idea floating around that a lot of uninsured people are evil deadbeats who expect the public to pay for their care. As an uninsured person myself, who potentially could reprioritize my spending and buy a (super-crappy) health insurance plan, I am very disturbed and confused by this rhetoric.

Do people realize that, if an uninsured, low-to-middle income person goes to the hospital just once, that could potentially mean the end of that person's financial future? No car, no house, no major purchases of any kind, garnished wages for the rest of your life. No reason even to hope for a raise, because the money will just go to paying your medical bills. I guess if you plan to be a homeless alcoholic it's a pretty good deal to go around uninsured.

The problem is, the "insurance" most of us low to middle income people can afford doesn't protect us against that eventuality. It only provides the promise of a somewhat smaller, yet still unpayable by several orders of magnitude, debt. The premiums basically suck up money that could go toward living a healthier lifestyle, or at least paying off whatever other debts we have. (Not to mention saving for an emergency--that would be so "unstimulating" for the economy...) Basic care and preventive care are a joke when you're on an HMO. Unless you are dying your doctor will just recommend an OTC medication 90% of the time, even if you're reporting chronic symptoms.

I haven't seen anything to suggest that the care "offered" to average earners under mandatory insurance will be any better than the "coverage" we can afford now. I only see a future where rich people and people with good benefits get blue-chip packages that we help support by paying premiums but never using doctors due to high co-pays, poor choice, etc.

Can anyone from the Clinton side substantively disabuse me of these notions?

I don't need to link the demonizing posts I refer to, because more examples will appear below.

[DJ13]

1. I saw those posts yesterday, and I agree.

They seemed remarkably similar to the "deadbeats looking for a freebie" tactic the GOP ushered in with their "welfare queen" rhetoric back in the early 90's under Newt Gingrich.

[Jed Dilligan]

2. There are way too many examples over there

I'm surprised that "progressives" here are so closely mimicking them.

[sandnsea]

3. I have a generous state subsidy

I can pay for both my insurance and my medicine and deductible. A tax credit at the end of the year would mean, well, I wouldn't have insurance because it's $1,000 a month. The "individual responsibility" meme is strictly right wing, and it's funny that those who are always yelling about framing don't see it. Obama thinks the way working people think, that's why he is going to bring the half of the country, who has given up, back into the light.

[Uben]

4. It's not about YOU!

The insurance is not so much about how much you will pay, it's about how much the rest of us won't have to pay if you get ill and can't pay. County hospitals cannot refuse treatment to anyone, and that is abused to the nth degree. In Dallas alone, to the tume of $53 million dollars a year. Non-paying, uninsured people are the primary reason hospital charges have grown exponentially!

I know lots of uninsured people who fully expect that if they get ill they can pay for it......until it happens, and the bills for thousands start rolling in. Mandated insurance not only will make premiums more affordable for you, it will make the rest of us pay lower taxes and lower premiums, as well.

[Jed Dilligan]

8. I know I can't pay either way

And I do not trust Hillary or Congress to change that. My girlfriend does buy insurance and has advised me against it. She pays 100 a month and coverage runs out after some piddling amount around $5,000. And that was the very best package she could afford (we have about the same income).

And it still sounds like you are blaming me for driving up your costs. What about the CEO of your insurance company?

[Uben]

11. I know some people fall in to the gap

They make too much to qualify for Medicaid and too little to afford insurance. You should be glad Clinton wants mandated insurance.
Your premiums are based on your income.

I know it saves you money not to have it. It would save me $1200/mo ! I had insurance thru my employer most of my life, but I retired 8 yrs ago, and had to purchase a private policy. It is a shitty policy. $5000 deductible and 50% of the next $10,000, so basically I can be out no more than $10,000 out-of-pocket each year. Do the math, I pay $12000+ yr for premiums right now.

It wasn't always that high. It started out at around $400/mo. Then, my wife got breast cancer. Without that insurance, I would have went bankrupt 5 yrs ago! Medical bills in excess of $250,000 !

They raise my premiums as much as they legally can every year. It is now at $1200/mo, and will just keep going higher. We can't get insurance anywhere else because of the breast cancer.

I desperately need this mandated insurance to lower my premiums before I go broke.

[Jed Dilligan]

13. The most I could afford is $100/month

I would rather spend it on things that actually make me healthier. Coverage at that price isn't going to amount to squat, even after Hillary waves her magic wand. You're lucky you have an income higher than $1200/month!

[BlackVelvet04]

53. You are undoubtedly the most thick headed individual I have

ever seen. Who is going to pay if you get hit by a bus? Grow up Jed. Chinese herbs and free range meat aren't going to save you from all the dangers of the world. We don't get the option of letting you die in the street so take some fucking grown up responsibility and quit acting like a victim.

[Jed Dilligan]

57. You used to avoid ad hominem nt

[BlackVelvet04]

64. Even saints have a breaking point...

and I'm no saint. You have gone round and round and round and round this issue all day. When it comes to health insurance Jed, all or nothing isn't smart. Owing $2,000 is better than owing $200,000.

And in all seriousness, and I truly don't mean to be unkind, it sounds like you have a depression problem that I hope you will address. Being ready to lay down and die is not a normal and healthy attitude.

I apologize for losing my temper.

[Jed Dilligan]

69. What, take corporate dope?

I don't believe in "depression." I'm aware of my mortality and value quality over quantity of life.

[BlackVelvet04]

73. Being depressed doesn't give one a quality of life....

there are natural things that help depression. Reacted magnesium being one of them. I don't do corporate dope either.

[Jed Dilligan]

74. I'm afraid of shrinks

Doubt I will ever go to one.

[Jed Dilligan]

63. Rhododendron extract controls my allergies,

Allegra gave me heart palpitations. Mock my health decisions all you want. I know what's right for me.

[CTLawGuy]

67. if he gets hit by a bus he goes bankrupt

sounds like payment enough to me...

[Jed Dilligan]

72. My reality involves being very careful and hoping for the best

I don't believe doctors will patch me up if I fall down.

Never get caught slipping is the number one rule of the streets.

[CTLawGuy]

75. good luck to you!

hopefully some day this will all get fixed.

[KT2000]

9. Are you kidding?

County hospitals cannot refuse treatment?
They are only required to stabilize a life threatening situation - they are not required to treat illnesses. The feds changed the law a few years ago. They release the stabilized patient with instructions to make an appointment with a doctor or go to the low cost clinic that is run by a church in our community.

The ER has turned into an adjunct of primary medical care also due to a change in doctor practices. They have anwering services for after hours and their days off. Patients are advised to call 911 or go to the hospital emergency room now. Doctors used to consult with the patient and kind of triage the situation.

Hospital ER's are deluged with the uninsured because most doctors will not accept uninsured people as patients.

The health care situation is very complex. The OP has made a valid point. Low cost, high deductible insurance is the same as having none, but it does line the pockets of the insurance industry.

[Jed Dilligan]

12. There was a study done by the SF Chron some time ago

Something like 12 homeless alcoholics were costing the city/county (they are one and the same in SF) something like 10 million dollars in ER bills over the course of a few years. They needed to be stabilized over and over again and never ended up in any kind of meaningful treatment.

The costs of the uninsured going to ER's is a really serious issue. However, to cast aspersions on uninsured people is unfair and unhelpful. Unless you are homeless and jobless already, running up a medical bill will have a severe negative effect on your financial future.

And somehow, I doubt that the providers Clinton plans to work with are going to want to issue policies for those dozen homeless alcoholics--and you can find the same in every major city.

[KT2000]

17. The homeless point

is currently being addressed by a pilot program that provides housing and a social worker contact. I think it was on 60 Minutes. Anyway, the man featured had an epilepsy problem that was costing huge money in ER visits. When he had housing and his life became stabilized, he kept up with his medications and had no more need for ER visits.
There were some failures but many had their health problems and related costs resolved when they had stable housing.

We also must consider employment based insurance. Currently there is a lovely Catch-22. When a person becomes too ill to continue working, as in Multiple Sclerosis etc., that person loses health insurance!!
Insurance companies love that.

[BlackVelvet04]

56. No, its not unfair....

you cling to your childish and self-pitying notions about chinese herbs and refuse to take some responsibility.

[MediaBabe]

16. I've almost given up explaining the ER is not access to care.

You are correct. ERs do not have to do any more than stabilize patients.

Go to an ER with a broken bone and they will not even put it in a cast. Broken bones are prone to swelling and you cannot put a hard cast on a limb that may swell. They'll wrap it in an ACE bandage and give you instructions to see an orthopedic specialist tomorrow, and hand you a piece of paper with a name on it. Trouble is, when you call, the first question they ask is who is your insurance co. No insurance? You must pay cash on the first visit. Sorry, we can't bill you.

[Jamastiene]

77. That depends on the county.

In my county, you can be refused treatment. If you sign a contract that you'll pay, they'll still treat you, but it's not free for us poor people. I got news for you. You are not paying my bills. Either way, if you are poor you lose everything if you cannot pay a bill for thousands of dollars. Trust me, we pay. Not you. I know that for a fact. I paid every red cent of the hospital and doctor and anesthesiologist and everyone else with initials behind their name who walked by while I was out cold, and saw my chart in the little plastic thing on the door.

I paid the costs for the removal of my own goddamn gall stones, thank you very much. No one else did.

If you want somewhere to point the finger for super high costs of health care, look at the overcharges for stupid shit like Q-Tips that cost $5 a piece, only in hospitals. Also take a close look at the "administrators," aka overpaid jackasses who sit on their asses every single day and whine about how hard they are working when they do nothing but show up and sit on their asses for a living. That money could go to paying for the health care of sick people.

[lvx35]

5. Both the Obama and Clinton plans will make good care more accessible

When they talk about things like opening up the congressional plan, they are talking about getting rid of the BS insurance like we can afford now.

Clinton IS spinning her plan to sound more vicious than it is, and in so doing she's banking on us being smarter than them. To understand why she does this, take a look at this video here on a marketting guru. In the end, it comes out that he advised car companies to make SUVs large and with tinted windows. Why? Because SUVs aren't about offroading, they are about domination and he's right, that's why he makes millions. People drive SUVs because they get off on dominating the weak, and the tinted SUV suggests domination to them.

The point is that what the republicans support deals with a psychology of domination of the weak. Even if healthcare makes the economy go smoother, they will not back it. To sell it to the middle Hillary has to sell it as domination.

edit: oops, the video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6575829334936135767&hl=en

[Jed Dilligan]

10. Well, playing to the worst instincts of the other side

does not make me more inclined to support her--particularly when it's my money she'll be taking for leverage.

[lvx35]

15. Those "instincts" have brought them win after win.

They have successfully projected domination onto so many people...Democrats, liberals who roll over in the end. I have seen so many people here who scream for single payer health care, then have turned around to complain, as you are, that she'll be "taking your money". Have you never talked to Europeans about how they pay more taxes for their health care, or are you actually so conservative you think we should continue as the only advanced nation without it?

[Jed Dilligan]

19. I'm for higher taxes

I'm against paying premiums on an individual account, especially if private companies profit

[BlackVelvet04]

59. that's just stupid.....

you would cut off your nose to spite your face.

[Submariner]

6. Thrown under the bus

I never financially planned to ever have to buy health insurance. I had it through the workplace while employed full time, but lost it when my work was cut back when federal project money was detoured to Iraq.

My fall back for healthcare was the VA, which guaranteed free-for-life healthcare if honorably discharged. What I never expected was the government breaking their word to veterans, but then again I never envisioned 2 yellow-bellied draft-dodging cowards in the WH stripping vets of benefits.

Once I found out my vet healthcare was no more, Mittens passes a mandated health insurance scam here in Mass, in essence saying, "hey you stupid vet, you can't go around without health insurance or I will fine you."

It is no wonder I'm livid about Hillarycare mandates, when she never took the time to fight to restore veterans health care benefits.

[Uben]

7. I'm sorry

Veterans were promised the healthcare, and they should get it. That pissed me off too, and I am not a veteran!

[Jed Dilligan]

14. It's a damned shame what they've done to you

This government has no honor, no pride. Why are people so surprised when I don't expect a square deal.

[BlackVelvet04]

18. Yes.....

There will be a number of public programs, but the best part of the plan is the offering of the FEHBP (Federal Employees Health Benefit Program). Under the FEHBP you can choose from any number of insurers. The government vets these companies for affordability, availability, promptness in paying claims, etc. The policies cannot deny coverage for pre-existing conditions and they must not raise premiums because of claims. Only an across the board moderate increase on a yearly basis
is allowed.

I had FEHBP insurance for 20 years and it was by far the finest insurance plans available any where. I think you will be able to opt for these plans even if your employer pays for your insurance.

When you have FEHBP if you have a problem with the insurer you contact the Federal Government office and they deal with the insurer.

Because there are 14 million federal government employees utilizing these insurers the government has more bargaining power in getting good policies at affordable prices. If you add millions more you get even more bargaining power.

As an added benefit doctors like accepting this insurance because they KNOW they will get paid without a hassle. I had doctors write off the portion not paid by the plans because they were saved time and insurance hassles.

[Jed Dilligan]

20. I still wonder how much this will change

once the number of people covered increases exponentially.

[BlackVelvet04]

21. Nobody can see the future....

but the FEHBP has handled 14 million employees...they are equipped to deal with the situation and more numbers give the government more bargaining power.

[Jed Dilligan]

22. It's just when the government does "reach out its hand" to the

"less fortunate," it's usually holding a gun.

[BlackVelvet04]

24. I guess you've made up your mind nothing will work....

sorry you feel that way. I for one would be damn happy to be able to get the FEHBP insurance.

[Jed Dilligan]

25. Part of it is not trusting Hillary or Congress

But most of it is not trusting the insurance format with individual accounts. There is so much room for discrimination and abuse; the goodness of people's hearts is not enough to bank on. Look at the way the veterans got screwed.

I don't want anything short of a simple system that makes medical care affordable. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." And I don't want ANY profit sector companies involved in any way.

[BlackVelvet04]

26. Well, I understand that...

but NO candidate is offering that so why belabor the issue? We all have to accept shit not to our liking. If you find a candidate offering you free health care I suggest you vote for that candidate. Let me know if you find one, would ya?

[Jed Dilligan]

27. I'll take one offering nothing

over one offering nothing with a monthly bill attached.

[BlackVelvet04]

28. You don't get it, do you?

Obama's pandering to those who really don't want to have to pay for insurance. He KNOWS mandates have to happen or he wouldn't mandate it for parents. Think, Jed. Why would he say mandates aren't necessary and then mandate parents to buy insurance? Is he just insinuating that parents are more irresponsible and selfish than the rest of the population? Well, maybe, but more like he's PANDERING TO THE YOUNG WHO ARE MORE LIKELY NOT TO BUY INSURANCE. He knows damn good and well it won't work without mandates OR HE WOULDN'T HAVE ANY MANDATES. Wake up. You cannot, let me repeat this, YOU CANNOT have universal health care without mandates. IT CAN'T HAPPEN.

Now sit there and feel sorry for yourself or fucking get a clue.

[Raster]

34. Let me give you a clue.... if you take the bloodsucking insurance companies out of the equation....

...THINK other "civilized" countries--and do your own fucking research--they don't allow the blood sucking insurance parasites to control their health care systems. And they sure don't allow the blood sucking parasites to control their governments. You want a fucking clue? Universal, single-payer, with the ability to negotiate drug prices, doctor's prices, hospital prices. And speaking of hospitals, it's time to revert back from for-profit medicine to the for-humanity kind. Neither Obama nor Clinton have it right. They are both sucking off the big pharma, insurance parasites and medicine-for-profit tits. It's time to put those titties away.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Raster]

76. As I said neither Clinton nor Obama have it right.

Take your abrasive pill today? Are you always this caustic, or you working extra hard at it this evening? And the name calling, jesus christ, woman, what are you, 12 years old? You ever think about treating people with a little respect? Nah, didn't think so.

[Jed Dilligan]

39. Children are optional last I checked

and parents SHOULD be forced to insure them.

[BlackVelvet04]

42. Oh, so mandates ARE required

for people to do the right thing. Parents MUST be forced but you should be exempt. Do you even read what you write? Do you know how hypocritical that attitude is?

If you get hit by a bus and get taken to an emergency room you WILL be a drain on those who are insured while you have just skated by because you are so fucking special YOU shouldn't have to do what you don't want. Time to grow up, dude.

[Jed Dilligan]

52. There are a ton of mandates on parents

You have to feed them, house them, make sure someone is watching them at all times until a reasonable age, and send them to school or home-school them. I know that I can't meet those requirements so I keep my semen out of women's vaginas. It's not that difficult.

[flyarm]

35. And yet Obama's plan would allow countless to game the system..and the rest of would have to pay for

them if they became ill or in an accident..how is that right or fair?

do you want people gaming the system while you are paying your fair share?

i sure don't.

and realize this Obama's plan says if enough people "game the system" he will put mandates in.

fly

[eridani]

29. Those plans will have premiums skyrocket if they are forced to accept a lot of sick people

You want bargaining power? If 14 million is good, then the entire population of the country ought to be fantastic!

[BlackVelvet04]

32. They can't skyrocket....

let me repeat this one more time...the government tosses out the programs that skyrocket in premiums. They don't skyrocket because they don't want to lose millions of customers. I used the FEHBP programs for 20 years.

[eridani]

45. That is because membership in those programs was restricted

What makes you think the rules will stay the same when there is a huge influx of actual sick people?

[BlackVelvet04]

46. Because there is a huge influx of well people, too.

What makes you think the rules will change? It's the same programs offered to all federal government employees including Congress. You think Congress is going to screw up their own health care programs?

Are you always so negative?

[eridani]

50. They've done the bidding of private insurers so far

That means yes, either they will screw up their own program or they will agree to not allow sick people into it, one or the other.

Single payer is the only solution.

[BlackVelvet04]

51. yes, single payer would be better

but IT'S NOT ON THE TABLE. Nobody, not Obama, not Hillary, and not a republican have single payer on the table. It's a moot point. You deal with what you can get while you work to change it. FEHBP is about the best alternative option that IS possibly going to be on the table.

[eridani]

55. That is why they can all go straight to hell unless they start advocating

--health CARE for ALL, everybody in and nobody out. I will never support gutless triangulaters who refuse to do this.

[BlackVelvet04]

66. That sounds all brave and good but it doesn't fix the

problem. Time to grow up and deal with reality.

[eridani]

81. Time to grow up and ask for $5000 if you expect to sell your used car for $3000

Fuck stupid wussy bought-off jerks who START OUT with a compromise.

[CorpGovActivist]

23. Thank you...

... for throwing a big dose of reality into this discussion. K&R!

- Dave

[BlackVelvet04]

30. Jed, you've been given all kinds of information and you refuse

to see it or accept it. What is it you want? Free health care? It ain't going to happen. I can't afford to pay for your health care. I have my own insurance and health care to pay for.

And free range meat isn't going to protect you from every disease in the world. Neither are chinese herbs.

[Jed Dilligan]

37. I promise to let myself die before I spend any of your precious money

Just let me live without any relationship with insurance companies, okay?

[BlackVelvet04]

40. You can do what you want....

I've given you the information and you keep stomping your feet demanding something THAT ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN RIGHT NOW. That sucks but dealing with reality is required to get along in this world. If you think life sucks now, have a major health crisis without it.

[Jed Dilligan]

54. Don't worry, I'm really serious

I will kill myself rather than deal with doctors, hospitals, tests, bill collectors, insurance companies, pain, suffering, etc. I'm already fairly tired of life without all that.

[flyarm]

38. thank you BlackVelvet..i spent all day yesterday trying to explain this to people who refuse to

listen or learn..it got my blood pressure so elevated i thought i would pop.

what these young people seem to want is a free ride..they don't give a shit who pays for them ,as long as it is not them!

They don't care what you have to pay in order for them to get a freeby...seems Obama has them all under the stupid spell..or cult spell..and they have no cognative thinking skills .

they are so used to a free ride from mommy and daddy..it is just too much for them to grow up and take responsibility for their own health care or health insurance.

they have now drank the Obama blue kool aide..

it is sad really that there are so many.. so ignorant..and so greedy they want everyone else to be responsible for them..instead of growing up and taking responsibility for themselves.

fly

[BlackVelvet04]

41. You're welcome...

and thanks for your efforts. I have spent HOURS finding and sharing information but the response is temper tantrums because it isn't what they want. The difference between adults and children is accepting what is and working with what you can get WHILE you change it. But you know that, they don't.

[flyarm]

43. my hubby worked for many years in Canada..we were forced to pay their OHIP even though we were not

entitled to it..everyone who works in Canada has to pay into the system ..even if they are not qualified to get it.

why do these kids think they are entitled to free medical insurance?..but everyone else must pay..

it boggles the mind.

what are they teaching in school these days..surely it is not common sense!!

fly

[BlackVelvet04]

44. Watch the American Idol auditions and you find

out that they have been pampered and told they are so special that the world rotates around them. If I had tried to go on American Idol my parents would have slapped me upside my head and told me I couldn't sing worth a shit, which is the truth. Not nowadays, they tell them if you try your best that's enough.

[Jed Dilligan]

60. I don't want to pay for medical insurance

It is a shitty, useless corporate product. I would gladly pay for healthcare.

[Bluerthanblue]

31. WORD- up

you said this perfectly.

peace~

[flyarm]

33. the system we have now demonizes the uninsured..and penalizes those with insurance.

if you do not understand that ..then you do not understand health care today.

fly

[BlackVelvet04]

48. I bet your head hurts as much as mine....

head meet brick wall.

Have a good night, I'm outa here for a while.

[nonconformist]

47. I don't have insurance. I desperately need it.

You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who wants universal healthcare more than me.

Neither plan is great, but out of the two, I prefer Hillary's. If it's mandated, companies will have to start getting competitive with their rates, and the prices will go down. Plus, I do believe that if everyone has insurance the costs will go down. I'm not sure why that would be a "right wing meme", since that's a major argument for universal healthcare.

[TexasObserver]

49. You're right, Jed.

I read a post or thread where you said this is your first election. Congratulations on voting, and on understanding the truth of what you have posted in this thread OP.

They want to ask people who go without a car because they don't have $300 to fix it to reach further into their pocket and pay health insurance. Life at the margin is grim for many Americans, and I don't want to see them paying insurance when they can't heat their homes in the winter.

[in_cog_ni_to]

58. Didn't you and I have this discussion yesterday? MILLIONS of people will be paying into the system.

Everyone will be covered whether they're rich or poor. If MILLIONS of people are paying into the system, it HAS TO BE CHEAPER than what we are paying now. Hillary's plan is based on a wage earner sliding scale. The wealthier you are, the more you pay. If you are poor and cannot afford ins. it will be provided by the Government. EVERYONE IS COVERED always! No preexisting illness denial either!

It's a WIN WIN for everyone.

[Jed Dilligan]

61. I'll believe it when I see it

And on the day it happens will personally PM you to eat crow. As it stands, you all look like kool-aid drinkers thinking a partnership between private insurers and the federal government will be anything but a clusterfuck.

[in_cog_ni_to]

68. This is a MUST! We have 50 million people in this country without health care coverage.

Because they can't afford it. Something has to be done.....this cannot continue as it is. The price of insurance is out of reach for many people! That's not right! We are the wealthiest country in the world. Our citizens should be able to see a doctor when they need one, without having to file bankruptcy after a hospital visit.:( That's a lose-lose situation for everyone.

A Universal Health Plan in which everyone is covered is a WIN WIN for everyone!

A RISING TIDE LIFTS ALL BOATS!

[Jed Dilligan]

71. That's what they said last time we had a Clinton

I was on the fuckin' streets. One boat was left by the tide.

[TexasObserver]

79. If you love your insurance company, you'll love Hillary Care II.

Take a look at how your car insurance company treats you.

The government requires you to have coverage. If you fail to have coverage, you get a ticket, get a fine, and may lose your ability to drive. If you send your insurer a check and they don't receive it or mishandle it, you lose your insurance. If you file a claim, they may or may not pay it. The government will not care whether you get satisfaction or not. They work for the insurance industry, too.

[Jamastiene]

80. Well, I do wish you would start a thread now for us to keep kicked.

The sole purpose of that thread will be to compare crow sizes across the country so we can make sure you get plenty to eat and that you won't be going hungry at least for that one meal. Hell, the runners up will be able to feed you for a year. How's that for free range?

[BlackVelvet04]

62. I think what we are dealing with is the

equivalent of the fingers in the ears and la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la

There are none so blind than those that will NOT see.

Have a good night, incognito. Good luck to us tomorrow.

[Jed Dilligan]

65. Thanks for kicking my thread

right onto the Greatest page, though!

:hi:

[in_cog_ni_to]

70. Night, BlackVelvet! GO HILLARY! See ya tomorrow!

:hi:

[Jamastiene]

78. The truth is: no one is going to offer it for free. Nothing in life is free.

We will have to pay. Fair enough. Nothing this government does is free. It's paid for by us. You know? The "we the people" thing you probably remember hearing about at some point.

So what if we have to pay? If they will just work with us and make it affordable, which is the key to this whole shebang, then so be it. We'll certainly be better off than not being insured at all and not really having any options.

[Jed Dilligan]

83. I seriously disagree.

The government will not "work with us"--where is the track record for that? They will work with corporations and make the product just barely affordable (painfully so) and absolutely worthless unless you are rich enough to buy out of it. It will be worse than nothing. Anyone who has lived as an adult in this country for any amount of time and isn't aware of that... I don't know... I can't really even imagine where you got the notion.

The Iraq War analogy below is very apt. That's been as "free" as the health care plan I would like--supported by taxes, based on earnings, more from the rich, less from the poor. I don't want it, but at least no one is sending me a monthly bill with my name on it.


edit for typo

[lostnfound]

82. I agree and hate the whole approach.

I want it "free" for every one -- the same way that illegally bombing Iraq was "free" for every one (irony, obviously) -- i.e., through taxes paid into general funds.

If not that, then an optional, cheap plan offered by the government but NOT obligatory.

We have so few freedoms left. We don't need the government making any more mandates on the slaves.

Many of us would probably BE healthier if we weren't so tied to our jobs, and we dream of cutting down our lifestyle to get a year or two off. Healthcare is a big obstacle for such freedom.

THE RIGHT TO BE LEFT ALONE.

[CorpGovActivist]

84. Important topic kick

[Jed Dilligan]

85. Thanks! nt

[CorpGovActivist]

86. Too important to be washed down the drain.

Thank you for sharing your personal experience, and for highlighting the dissonance between Ivory Tower plans and reality.

- Dave