As a mother of draft age sons and as a military vet, I am asking you to consider HRC's voting record

[Windy]

On the war, and on Kyl/Lieberman before casting your vote tomorrow.

It is my belief that Mrs. Clinton, unlike many other members of the Senate, voted to go to war in Iraq, by casting her Yea vote for a resolution entitled "Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq" .

She has never stated that she made a mistake in her vote unlike John Kerry or John Edwards. She refuses. She then voted "yea" for Kyl/Lieberman which has the potential of providing a means to strike Iran. These are serious times we live in. Actions have consequences and judgment is critical!

I do not want a president who maintains such a cavalier attitude regarding the prospect of sending our young men and women off to war to possibly die while her daughter, who is draft age and very capable of serving sits in her nice cushy home and has the time to campaign for her mother out of harms way.

As a person who served, I have a real problem with the nonchalant consideration of the lives of our military personnel who took second place to the lofty goals of the Clintons in regaining the Whitehouse!

She voted as she did on the IWR and Kyl/lieberman for purely political reasons because she knew that she would be running for president and didn't want to seem weak! Are her own selfish goals a reason to fail to fight like hell to stop George Bush from sending our kids to die? Are her own selfish goals a good reason to continue to vote with Bush priming the pump to fight possible future battles, once again, committing our men and women to die for a cause without a solid foundation. Without clear and convincing evidence? Is her ability to gain the presidency worth the sacrifice of our men and woman in uniform who have unselfishly sacrificed their lives for the good of this country?

I say it is not. For that reason, I cannot cast my vote for Hillary in the primary.

Its a matter of character. Its a matter of honor. Its a matter of respect for our young men and woman who have given so much and have received little in return.

It is out of respect for them that I have decided to cast my vote for Barack.

[Thrill]

1. Look if you want to win the GE. Meaning Congress and The Presidential Race

You better nominate Obama.

Candidates for Congress are praying Obama is the nominee

[msongs]

2. obama consistently votes to support and fund the Iraqi occupation nt

[Kittycat]

3. Absent of any plan... Should he not - and make them go without food & equipment

that keeps them alive?

That's an unfair comparison. HRC voted for the bill that put them there. Obama is just keeping them alive.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

5. yes, unpopular to starve soldiers!

a plan is needed

[Carolina]

69. exactly

Suporting them once they've been put in harm's way is entirely different from

Voting to send them off needlessly into harm's way in the first place.

[Windy]

6. so did your candidate! Hypocrisy doesn't help your argument!

and you completely dismissed what I was saying!! I'm talking about what got us into this war. As a military vet and a mother who has friends and family that have served in Iraq and Afghanistan and who has heard directly from relatives regarding the lack of body armour and having to scrounge metal up shore up Humvees, I have no problem with the funding since we are already there. The troops need the equipment and Bush has proven that he doesn't give a DAMN about the troops and will veto funding if there are timetables attached.

The proper course was to fight like hell to make sure that we didn't enter into a war of choice.

She put her own ambition over the lives of our military members who have no choice but to go where they are sent whether the reason is right or wrong.

The influx of people signing up after 911 did so as they wanted to go after those that attacked us. They were not in Iraq. The good intentions of the troops were exploited and they suffered and died as a result.

I can't support a candidate for president who will send kids off to die so that she doesn't look weak to her opposition!

If you're comfortable with that, then your moral compass certainly is not the same as mine.

[Thrill]

8. Yeah we should have them in the fucking hot desert

with no food and equipment. If they're going to be over there. They better fund it or neither would get my vote

[ErnestoG]

16. When a Hillarite actually tells the truth, it will make great news.

Obama never voted to support the war in principle. He wants to keep soldiers fed. Very different things.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

4. what politicians will do for power!

[goldcanyonaz]

7. Obama couldn't even be bothered to return to Washington to vote on Kyl-Leiberman.

I want a President who isn't afraid to stand up and have her voice heard, even if it's not the popular voice. A President can't sit out important decisions.

[Windy]

9. You'd have an argument if she voted against it. She didn't. She voted for it.

Again, cavalier with regard to the lives of our troops. all for her own gain.

And again, you failed to read my entire post or at best, glossed over what I stated.

[stillcool]

13. The inability to state...

"I made a mistake" is from someone who is afraid, time and time again, to stand up and have her voice be heard. Purely political. But then again..so was the Liebermann-Kyl amendment. However, voting for war has slightly different consequences...don't you think?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
That amendment was a “Sense of the Senate” resolution, which means it has no legal force.

The Lieberman-Kyl amendment is similar to the 1998 Iraq Liberation Act, which officially put the U.S. on record as supporting regime change in Iraq.

the 1998 Iraq Liberation Act that passed the U.S. Senate by unanimous consent and the House of Representatives by a vote of 360 - 38 was signed into law by President Bill Clinton.

[Windy]

18. You really should stop being so smug with the lives of our kids.

The IWR was an auth to go to war. Kyl/Lieberman, if you took the time to read it, give Bush the loophole to strike Iran from inside Iraq... etc. Knowledge is dangerous Still Cool 47.

"the 1998 Iraq Liberation Act that passed the U.S. Senate by unanimous consent and the House of Representatives by a vote of 360 - 38 was signed into law by President Bill Clinton." Thank you for the reminder of Bill Clinton's complicity in sending our troops into harms way and his ties to PNAC.

[stillcool]

23. Smug?

Why? Because I believe that a vote for war can not be compared to a not present vote for a the Kyl Lieberman amendment? By the way..do you always use such condescending language?

Senate Approves Symbolic Rebuke of Iran

WASHINGTON — The Senate on Wednesday overwhelmingly approved a measure sending another rebuke to Tehran, this one aimed at sending a message to the Islamic regime to end military tactics targeting U.S. forces in Iraq.

0926 10The vote came one day after Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad told international leaders gathered at the U.N. General Assembly that Iran only seeks a peaceful nuclear program, and said that the conversation on the Iranian nuclear program “is now closed.”

The Senate, showing it was not convinced by Ahmadinejad’s proclamations, approved the nonbinding measure on a 76-22 vote. It was sponsored by Sens. Jon Kyl, R-Ariz., and Joe Lieberman, D-Conn.

The measure — an amendment to the Defense Authorization bill under consideration in the Senate — is in response to growing concerns over Iranian support for insurgent activity in Iraq. Military officials say Iranian weapons have been discovered in insurgent hands, and U.S. officials have captured agents with alleged Iranian ties.

The amendment calls on the State Department to designate Iran’s Revolutionary Guard Corps as “a foreign terrorist organization.” The designation would allowed for more economic sanctions to be set against the country.

The measure’s opponents, which include Sen. Jim Webb, D-Va., said the language is too open-ended, and could be construed as Senate authorization to use force against Iran.

One portion of the amendment reads: “It is the Sense of the Senate … that it should be the policy of the United States to combat, contain, and roll back the violent activities and destabilizing influence inside Iraq of the Government of the Islamic Republic of Iran, its foreign facilitators such as Lebanese Hezbollah, and its indigenous Iraqi proxies.”

“This proposal … is Dick Cheney’s fondest pipe dream. It’s not a prescription for success. At best, it’s a deliberate attempt to divert attention from a failed diplomatic policy. At worst, it could be read as a back-door method of … gaining congressional validation for action without one hearing or without serious debate,” Webb said Tuesday.

At the urging of Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman Carl Levin, Lieberman and Kyl took steps Tuesday to remove the most controversial parts of their measure.

Lieberman said Webb was off-base on his interpretation of his proposal.

“Our colleague (Webb) has given the darkest possible interpretation … There is no intention of declaring war,” Lieberman said.

[Windy]

27. It is frightening the lengths that people will go to to support Hillary's war and Iran votes.

“Our colleague (Webb) has given the darkest possible interpretation … There is no intention of declaring war,” Lieberman said.


This says it all...

I will take Jim Webb's analysis of Joe Liebermans any day of the week.

But here's a helpful hint. Read the amendment yourself keeping the track record of the current administration and their actions over the years in mind.

Your arguments are weak.

And I am not being condescending. I am angry at the callous nature of those who find that Mrs. Clinton voted with the best interests of the citizens of this country, our men and women in uniform, and our children in mind!

[stillcool]

40. My original response....

was to this post:

Obama couldn't even be bothered to return to Washington to vote on Kyl-Leiberman.

I want a President who isn't afraid to stand up and have her voice heard, even if it's not the popular voice. A President can't sit out important decisions

Now...Please...explain to me how a vote to go to war in Iraq....is comparable to a not present vote on the Kyl-Lierbermann amendment.

[Windy]

45. Hillary's go to war vote assisted in causing the deaths of almost 4000 american

and the senseless maiming of 1000s of others.

She voted for a war of choice.. the soldiers had no choice.

She did not admit to her monumental mistake and then voted for Kyl/Lieberman which was a vote that gave bush tacit authority to attack Iran from inside Iraq.

She voted to go to war...she voted for Kyl/Lieberman.

It is much worse to make a point of casting a vote against the interests of this country and our military men and women.

[stillcool]

76. What is it that you think I wrote?

this is ridiculous. You have a bitch with me, but I can't figure out what it is. My initial response was concerning the lunacy of comparing Hillary's vote to take this country to war, with Obama's no show vote on a non-binding sense of the senate vote which he already stated he was opposed to.

[GalleryGod]

29. The Clintons = CHICKENHAWKS.

Slippin' and slidin' and (Dick Morris) Triangulatin'

As a combat veteran, I could never vote for these two cowards.



My hero, Poet-Warrior, Hal Moore; The Clintons couldn't shine his boots.

[1corona4u]

36. Yep....

and he didn't vote for the SCHIP bill either....what a surprise...

[WillParkinson]

10. Vote for whomever you'd like...

I'm choosing Mr. Edwards (if he's on my ballot) or just bypassing the presidential choice altogether. Mr. Obama and Ms. Clinton to me = No Real Choice.

[Sonicmedusa]

12. I hear you Brother NT

[jillan]

11. Obama was too busy campaigning to vote on Kyl-Lieberman-

Raising money was more important than voting on that bill . . .

Says alot to me.

[stillcool]

17. I agree...

voting for war is so much less important than voting for a "Sense of the Senate" which has no legal force.

[ErnestoG]

19. Good! Why would anyone with a Dem bone in their body vote for Kyle/Lieberman?

I'm glad Obama avoided this crap and concentrated on his campaign so we would have nore more dynamic that favors such irresponsible warmongering that Hillary voted for.

[johnnydrama]

22. so youre saying

so you're saying she rushed back from a busy campaign to specifically vote YES for Kyl/Lieberman?

[ErnestoG]

14. She is Bushlike warhawk. Not to be trusted with your son's life.

And anyone who tells you the Kyle/Lieberman step toward attacking Iran is not more of the Iraq War same, is lying to you.

[Didereaux]

46. I am vet, my son is active decorated SpecWarfareOps 3tours Iraq/Afgh we trust Hillary more than BO

[Didereaux]

47. oh yeah, and I wrote letters etc against the war BEFORE the Kyle/Lieb vote!

[madmunchie]

79. That is your loss

[dailykoff]

15. This is the only issue that matters.

For us, the world, history. Wish everybody could see things as clearly. Thanks!!

[cooolandrew]

20. Added to the fact HRC has taken huge military donations, it would leave zero for health care.

[suston96]

21. All due respect for your service but the rest of your post is all fogged up.

Hillary Clinton's vote didn't amount to a hill of beans in a Republican controlled senate. Do the fogging math!

[Windy]

25. Wow, so its ok that her vote sent men and women to die for her own ambition

because even if she would have voted correctly and humanely, the republican controlled congress would have won the vote anyway?

I think I've heard it all now!!!!

[suston96]

48. Her vote and the rest of the Democrats' votes meant nothing in a Republican Senate....

Bush started a war with falsified intelligence which he used to convince Congress and the American people to support him. And they did.

Laying all this at the feet of a candidate you don't like is bullshit and you know it.

[DebraK]

24. kick

[CorpGovActivist]

26. I have a cousin going to Iraq - again.

Please weigh the OP's words, and please look at the National Military Family Association's information (NMFA.or), if you need additional data on the impact these wars of choice are having on real families.

- Dave

[GalleryGod]

28. As A Combat Veteran I Could NEVER Support the Chickenhawk Clintons.

GARRY OWEN, OBAMA !!!!!

[polichick]

42. Thank-you for your service! :)

[GalleryGod]

58. Not a problem...it's the "triangulating" elitists who can't read a military Sit Map!

As of 0800 today, my little, blue collar Democratic Town has been surrounded by the Obama Insurgency!

Moms,College Kids,and Independent Dem officeholders...Hoo-rah!

[polichick]

63. What a great day for America!

[DebraK]

30. kick

[Windy]

31. As the OP of this thread, thank you Debra for keeping it kicked. Today is critical for our kids! nt

[DebraK]

32. kick

[Vinca]

33. Clinton's war vote is something I can't overcome.

It wasn't a resolution to allow the president to put inspectors in Iraq, as she seems to be trying to claim. Most of the American people knew what it was. IMHO, Democrats who voted in favor of it were taking a political gamble and lost.

[Stephanie]

49. It's the defining moment of her career.

And she failed.

[polichick]

34. We MUST beat McCain if we don't want a draft...

With Obama, we can WIN ~ and we'll have a new mindset with regard to foreign affairs. YES, WE CAN!

[Windy]

35. Please keep this kicked everyone. This IS the issue in this election! n/t

[DebraK]

37. kick

[mod mom]

38. I feel the same Windy but my son is only 11. If we allow those who appease

the war mongers then this war will last for many years. We need change and it's not the Clintons.

[DebraK]

39. Hillary will do and say anything to get elected, didnt you know?

[jakem]

41. kick.

[Marrah_G]

43. I have teenagers. My brother has been reactivated ( Navy)

Hillary get my vote.

This election is about far more then a simple vote that was never intended to be a vote to go to war.

If that is the only thing you are basing your vote on that's your choice.

I am looking at the big picture and for myself, the clear choice is Hillary.

Furthermore:

I have just as much respect for my children as you do for your's. My daughter, who is watching her friends go off to war, is looking forward to voting for Hillary next November when she is finally 18. To say in some nasty roundhouse way that Hillary supporters do not respect our soldiers is so fucking off base it leaves me seething. How fucking dare you. I just spend a year of my life flinching when the phone rang, bursting into tears during the news, never being able to relax and enjoy a celebration because my brother could have been lying in the sand bleeding out in some far away land.

So really- take all your comments about respect for the military and future military= a vote for Obama and just shove them. Really... shove them.

[suston96]

62. Marrah G: In most states your daughter can vote in the primaries .....

...if she will be 18 by the November election day.

[Marrah_G]

66. I didn't know that- I will have to check on Mass.

She isn't registered though :(.

She is very much looking forward to being able to vote.

[DebraK]

44. Too bad Hillary doesnt care about our troops to stop the war

[CyberPieHole]

50. Obama has voted to fund the war...Besides Obama was too lazy to show up to vote on Kyl/Lieberman.n/t

[Windy]

55. Hmm...the ware the HRC funding too?

And what was the reason? I believe Biden said that the troops were without critical equipment that they needed to be safe. Body armour, etc...

The FACT that our troops were sent into battle with inadequate equipment didn't come to the fore until later on after the war was well underway! Shamefully!

Many senators voted to fund the bills for funding. They tried to insert timetables, but bush threatened to veto them. Instead of denying the troops what they needed, they voted to fund. This is not only supportive of Obama's position, but Hillary and Biden too.

If all of you hillary supporters as so against the votes to support funding, where were you when Dennis Kucinich was in the race?????? He was the only one who voted to cut off funding of the candidates!!!

I for one don't want our kids to be without what they need! The trick was not going to war in the first place when it was unnecessary!

And you candidate MADE IT A POINT TO SHOW UP TO VOTE FOR KYL/LIEBERMAN, A RESOLUTION THAT GAVE BUSH TACIT AUTHORITY TO STRIKE IRAN FROM IRAQ...KNOWING FULL WELL THE CAPACITY FOR WAR THAT THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION HAS EXHIBITED!!! THEREIN LIES THE DIFFERENCE!!!

Try not to be such hypocrites when you attempt to support your candidate.

[Jessy Jonas]

51. kick

[Texas_Kat]

52. As the mother of a current member of the Service

I'm voting for HC.

She has the depth of knowledge to understand what international diplomacy really means -- she won't inadvertently cause riots in the streets in Pakistan by threatening invasions.

[Didereaux]

53. We match perfectly my son as well...decorated and 3 tours more...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4402412&mesg_id=4403559

[Texas_Kat]

54. Thank you for YOUR service, and your son's as well

Even though we're very proud of them, sometimes I wonder who has the most difficult time with careers our children choose. :)

[GalleryGod]

57. GARRY OWEN, SON! Garry Owen!

[mrreowwr_kittty]

60. You know what? If you honestly believe Obama caused riots in Pakistan

We don't need your vote for him. :thumbsdown:

[Texas_Kat]

77. Thanks, I'll keep that in mind

[Windy]

56. Kick... nt

[GalleryGod]

59. INCOMING KICK !!!!

:kick: :kick: :kick: :nuke:

[originaldeanic]

61. kick

[Hell Hath No Fury]

64. That's pretty much what did it for me...

I had been a supporter of Hillary's until her IWR vote. I watched her Senate speech live and, when she voted "yea" (along with Kerry and Edwards) I knew right then and there she was running in 2008 and was trying to cover her ass against future attacks from the right.

One of the most important votes in my lifetime -- with the lives of men and women at risk -- and she (and Kerry and Edwards too) chose to put her political ambitions above what was good for the country.

It was cowardly. It was revolting. And, man was it enlightening.

Kyl/Lieberman was just a confirmation of what I had already discovered about her.

Kerry and Edwards at least had the good graces to apologize for their bullshit vote (though it is truly unforgivable).

And Hillary continues to rationalize/bullshit/excuse hers.

She doesn't deserve my vote. And she didn't get it today.

Amen, sister.

[Carolina]

73. Hey Hell Hath No Fury

TOTALLY agree with you. That's when I soured on HRC, too. And in 2004, held my nose to vote for Kerry-Edwards.

How could any of them cede such awesome power to Bush? How could any of them justify claims that Iraq (bombed and sanctioned for so long) was an imminent threat?

Political calculation, moral cowardice.

I voted against HRC here in SC; glad you did likewise today :hi:

[Hell Hath No Fury]

75. I had just about zero respect for Kerry/Edwards...

after their votes, but damn it I held my nose and pulled the lever for them because Bush was killing our country and he had to go.

I am not naive enough to think that politics isn't a game that is played every single day by our representives, but fer fuck's sake, there are times when playing politics is just not a damn option.

I promised myself after 2004 I would not cast a vote like that again in the next election. And I am keeping that promise to myself. I simply will not enable candidates who are part of the problem.

:hi:

[MethuenProgressive]

65. What a foolish OP. Blaming Bush's War on Clinton is insane.

We've buried the sons of friends who were KIA in Iraq and Afghanistan, we have family on the way to Iraq, and family back-but-going-back to Iraq. Ours is a military family going all the way back to the French and Indian Wars, seven in Arlington and one with his name on the Wall. No military person or family member I know has ever blamed anyone but Bush for starting Bush's War.

[TexasObserver]

67. kicked and recommended!

Thank you. My sons don't need to be conscripted for another political war, either. As a military vet, I join you in your post.

[MethuenProgressive]

68. Obama Introduces "Iraq War De-Escalation Act" to BRING OUR TROOPS HOME!!!

Obama Introduces "Iraq War De-Escalation Act" to BRING OUR TROOPS HOME!!!

[Carolina]

70. K&R

[OzarkDem]

71. Both candidates' plans are dubious

[cottonseed]

72. Bingo - this is my biggest beef with Hillary

I'm just not sure I can handle a general election with two candidates arguing over who's cannon is bigger. I, along with a lot of others I suspect, is tired of being played with the fear card.

[paulk]

74. well, since Obama didn't vote on either the IWR

or Kyle/Lieberman, I don't understand how you arrive at the conclusion that he is better.

Sounds like you're voting against someone rather than for.

[FrenchieCat]

78. Hil voters don't care about all of that.....the just want that health care plan

that they won't even recognize by the time Hillary loses her battle on the hill, because of a weak number of dems in congress due to her lack of coattails for the a general election (If she could even win)! :(