The 25 reasons why I don't think I could ever support Hillary Clinton...

[Bread and Circus]

Before Hillary Clinton squeeks out the nomination and the thought police come to DU in order to squash dissent, I want to get this get the following out there. It's my manifesto and response to anyone that thinks I'm a mindless Clinton hater. I resent that. I'm a mindful Clinton hater :evilgrin: (actually I don't hate her, it's more of a mix of distrust and dislike).

1.) She is running on Bill Clinton's record, not her own - and the 90's were bad for liberalism an progressiveism. The economy was good according to many indicators. However, it was still a bubble and it didn't last. The groundwork for lasting change was not laid and we were not set on a new path.

2.) The one time she had a chance to head a major project (early 90's healthcare reform), she screwed it up beyond belief. This is not a RW talking point. This is actually well documented in respectable liberal publications. She was submarined by the right to be sure, but even her chief advisor (sociologist P. Starr) on the project had deep internal reservations about how they went about reform.

3.) Her chief advisor is Mark Penn, who is an unscrupulous pollster and strategizer who advised and guided Bill Clinton during the 90's to throw liberalism under the bus for short term political gain. If you want to really learn about this mystery man, go to www.thenation.com and search for him there. How her chief advisor can be a guy who aids Blackwater, corrupt governments, corrupt corporations, and union busters is beyond me.

4.) Mark Penn aside, a lot of Clinton's inner circle are corporatists, centrists, and triangulators. I'm just tired of that type of leadership.

5.) She is a member of the DLC, which has tried to hijack the party for nearly 20 years and turn it into a softer gentler brand of Republicanism.

6.) She and Bill have numerous scandals involving quid pro quo crony politics. Hsu, Rich, and Guistra are just the tips of the iceberg. Rezko is a drop in her ocean.

7.) She won't stand up against lobbyists. She gets a lot of money from them and stated they are part of the system publicly in one of the debates (and not in a bad way).

8.) She won't stand up against corrupt government and abuses like private earmarks in trade for campaign cash.

9.) She is a "wet finger in the air politician". She licks her finger and sees which way the wind is blowing (see item #3). She has no political spine. I can't name one courageous moment in her life except for forgiving Bill for his numerous affairs, although I fear that is politically motivated as well.

10.)Her vote for the IWR was a cynical ploy, based on her political aspirations at the time and not wanting to be perceived as "weak on terror". She's never apologized about it. Her spin is that she had no idea Bush was going to rush to war once he got permission. That is bullshit and James Carville calls that "bunk" <<< it's even in one of his books.

11.)She might (and that's a risky might) win the GE (although I don't know how she will pull off Florida and Ohio to be honest) but I don't see any equation where she will unite the country behind her. She has had 4 years of incumbency for the nomination and she can't even unite the Democratic party behind her. She has polled in the high 30's to the 40's since the straw polls of the primaries of 2004. She hasn't budged the needle out of the 40's her whole candidacy. She's ALWAYS been the odds on favorite to win this according to the MSM that has been coronating her for years. However, everytime someone drops out, most of the votes goes to who is left and not to her. She has a staunch core but she can't seem to recruit more. She was supposed to be coronated by now, but she's really just exposed the huge rift in our party. There's a vast RW conspiracy against her but there's also a vast LW conspiracy against her too. And that's because people don't like her, for whatever reason.

12.) I oppose Dynasty Politics. They are un-American and the framers of the country wanted to avoid 30 years of rule by 2 families.

13.) We don't need a "Bill Clinton" Co-presidency and I think his performance in the primaries are indicative he has ideas of his own.

14.) I don't like "politics as usual". To me, it's personal. I don't think the Clintons meet my threshold for consistent ethical behavior. They baited Obama on race, which considering how black people have been abused in this country for centuries, it absolutely not tolerable.

15.) She lacks vision. Her campaign is a script that she has rehearsed and memorized. It's poll tested for the primaries. If she gets past Obama, wait for the hard right turn. If she gets past McCain I'm not even sure what kind of President she will be, only the polls will tell.

16.) The arc of her life outside of shrewd pursuit of power seems to deal with charities, foundations, and organizations that benefit children. This is noble. However, it's her brand of pursuit of power that disenfranchises the powerless in the first place.

17.) I don't think she has the moral will and the force of charisma to galvanize the population for health reform. I fear we will just end up with a watered down subsidy for the private insurance companies (just like our current Medicare Part D). Respectable liberal publications are on record stating that was part of the problem back in 1993.

18.) Clinton is more likely to get Hawkish because she has the "most to prove". This was proven by her IWR vote and her Kyl Lieberman vote. One good terrorist attack and we will be back to doing assinine bullshit again in the name of the "war on terror"?

19.) She will be running for 2012 "on day one". Wait for it. Mark Penn will see to it. How do you think that will cloud her judgement on Iraq, Health reform, and other huge issues of the day?

20.) I don't think she is the best candidate for down-ticket dems. Actually, she is the worst. If not in 2008, remember 2010 is around the corner. Anyone remember what happened in 1994 after she screwed up health reform?

21.) Her "35 years of experience" talking point is hard to believe, it's laughable actually. She does have a lot of experience. However, none of it is executive experience, except for her failed health plan foray. She'd be more honest to say "I have more experience" than Obama and leave it at that. Really, she's just saying she's older than Obama, I can't refute that. And to be honest, Obama is light on executive experience as well. However, she will have a hard time that once she's made "experience" the cornerstone of her candidacy to face McCain. Let's face it, he's got magnitudes greater relative experience than her. That's just a dog that won't hunt for her in the GE. It will force her back to the "change" talking point - but seen #22 for more on this.

22.) Clinton is not an agent of change. Actually, McCain is more deserving of the title. He's sold out to Bush and the Bush Republicans in order to get the nomination. However, in his real life as a Senator, he's been on the forefront of changing goverment in terms of campaign finance and decreasing the quid pro quo crony politics of earmarking and the like. She's going to have a hard time selling she's the agent of change when she refuses to stand up against lobbyists and earmarking abuse.
23.) She says "I" instead of "we" too much. It's a rhetoric thing but I think it's telling about why she's running and who she's running for.

24.) She has a great chance to move feminist politics forward. It could backfire. I don't know. I think on balance it will be a good thing for women. There's a risk. But what am I going to tell my daughters? - "you can grow up to be President as long as you are married to a former President, publicly suffer his sexual affairs, and run on his record of a bubble economy which was partly ran on easy credit and a tech boom"!?!

25.) And finally, I just don't like her. She rubs me the wrong way.

P.S. Mandating the purchase of health insurance from private companies is NOT "Universal Health Care". Quit calling it that. The only serious Universal Health Care plan out their right at the moment is HR676, authored and sponsored by John Conyers.... guess who he endorses...

[splat]

1. So which Repub are you writing these talking points for?

[peace frog]

2. Bwaaaaaa!

:thumbsup:

[sloppyjoe25s]

109. let me add 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35

this is a marvelous list. Covers a good chunk of why I cannot pull the lever for Hillary. Though I am a life long Democrat. But let me add a few more reasons:

26. Hillary's support and vote for George Bush's landmark "No Credit Card Company Left Behind" - Bandruptcy 'Reform' law. Which Obama fought against and voted against. Hillary says she "voted for it but hoped it would not pass". It was more damaging and hurtful to working class and lower-middle class voters than perhaps any legislation in past 40 years.

27. Bill and Hillary's execution of Ricky Ray Rector: who's he?

"Just ask Ricky Ray Rector. He’ll tell you. Or he would if he wasn’t dead. He’s the poor SOB whom Clinton Bill flew home to execute during the 1992 campaign in order to show frightened Americans that Republicans aren’t the only viciously ambitious politicians who can pander to their fears, by golly. So what if poor Ricky Ray was so mentally impaired that he asked to have the dessert from his last meal saved so he could eat it later? What did one less retarded kid matter when there were so many electoral votes at stake?"

-- from COmmon Dreams - Clinton Reflux Syndrome:

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/02/01/6775/

28. Hillary does have a tad more executive experience than the poster says - She lead an education initiative in Arkansaas while Bill was governor there. Like her bid to reshape Health Care - the results were dismal. Arkansaas fell from 42nd in the nation in educational results to 49th in the years immediately following Hillary's education initiative, and under Bill's watch as well.

29. She plays the "I'm a Girl" card constantly. Appealing to her supporters constantly to "make history and elect a woman" - this is in contrast with Obama who knew from the get go that he had to do everything possible to keep his blackness from becomming the issue. I want to vomit when I hear Billary supporters say "I'm voting for her because we need a woman" -- it is so blind. I would love a woman president - just not her.

30. Her vote against the Levin Ammendment - given one final chance to even slow the march to war in Iraq - she voted against an ammendment that might have looked "too peaceful or international" for a general election - again - always political - always poll tested. No Spine. Afraid of "looking weak"

31. The way Bill locked up the super delegates for her. We saw it in my home state of NM clearly - where Bill went around and locked up litterally dozens of super delegates using not-so-subtle arm twisting -- LONG LONG before Iowa had even voted. I think it's ridiculous we might have Super Delegates decide this thing and not voters. I admire Donna Brazil (black Democratic commentator - who is herself a Democratic Super Delegate) who said openly on CNN today that she "Will Drop out of the Democratic Party" if the Super Delegates pick our Nominee." Kudos to Donna for her principles. Shame on the Clintons for trying to subvert the nominating process.

32. Hillary's total lack of initiative as a board member of WalMart. Six board members have come forward and have said she did nothing whatsoever to "rock the boat" - or even verbally challenge a single labor policy at Walmart. I'm not Walmart bashing, heck i shop there, but it could sure be improved a bit - and her campaign claims she was an "activist" which the people who were there along side her de-bunk.

33. Bill's recently documented trip to Khazakstan to trade politcial favors for uranium rights to a contributor, while helping a murderous dictator get a better rep from democracy groups. Mmmmmm.... Diplomacy Clinton Style. This was in last weeks New York Times for those who missed it.

34. Even if i removed 1-34 from the list. She is just uninspiring. Period. She projects a "yoemanlike knowledge of bureacracy" as her chief asset. When she says "I don't just care about the next election - i care about the next generation" - i cringe. She just does not hold the power to inspire, unite, and pull a new generation of people into the ideal of working for our country.

35. She will ignite the Republican base like pure high-octane gasoline. The Dem turnout advantage will disappear as millions now Obama motivated Democrats and independents turn away. Even if she squeaks out a win. It will be painful and ugly before, during and after.

Sorry... i could probably go on all day. Call me a basher or whatever you like - I would LOVE a woman president to be clear - but this is not a direction I can go. I too am tired of this "United Behind anyone" and "A Democrat at Any Cost" rhetoric - and I'm a life long Democrat. So Peace & Obama for me.

[sce56]

117. Error: You've already recommended that thread.

Hillary is like GOP Lite and for those of you who don't believe it so was Bill! Here is from her own web site that she says she Admires and liked the administrations of the First Bush and Ronnie Raygun too!
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/release/view/?id=4674
"But no president can do it alone. She must break recent tradition, cast cronyism aside and fill her cabinet with the best people, not only the best Democrats, but the best Republicans as well.. We’re confident she will do that. Her list of favorite presidents - Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Lincoln, both Roosevelts, Truman, George H.W. Bush and Reagan - demonstrates how she thinks. "


From the smirking chimp
http://www.smirkingchimp.com/news/12252

What Hillary Likes About Reagan Bush 41
Hillary likes the way Reagan-Bush negotiated the 1980 October Suprise with the Iranian Mullahs and GOT AWAY WITH IT.
Hillary loves the way Reagan stole Carter's debate briefing papers and got away with it.
Hillary loved the way the contra army killed tens of thousands of people in Nicaragua and especially all those Nicaraguan women that were GANG-RAPED BY THE CONTRA ARMY.
Hillary loves the way Reagan-Bush 41 & Bill Clinton GOT AWAY WITH ALL THE OLIVER NORTH CONTRA COCAINE SMUGGLING.GOOGLE THE TERM I VOLUNTEER TO KIDNAP OLIVER NORTH BY FORMER DEA AGENT MICHAEL LEVINE.
Hillary loves the way REAGAN-BUSH 41 GOT AWAY WITH ALL THE IRAN-CONTRA CRIMES WITHOUT BEING IMPEACHED.

[eridani]

161. You forgot voting in favor of cluster bombs n/t

[George II]

201. When November rolls around, who's lever will you pull?

McCain's? Sure, THAT will change things.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

202. You are so right about #29. In fact, when she went to Yale last week

SHE made a point of saying, "Oh, you're going to make me tear up." Of course, the media picked up on it. I struck me that she wanted them to think she was going to cry and report it. Very disengenuious.

And to think she really was upset because the "men were ganging up on me" is totally unbelieveable to me.

[Democrat 4 Ever]

4. Yawn....what a waste of bandwidth. n/t

[leftofthedial]

24. typical clinton supporter reply

the irony escapes you entirely too, no doubt.

[Democrat 4 Ever]

32. You want irony? I still don't know who I am going to vote for but

having a Hillary Hater trying to post BS against any Democratic candidate on a Democratic web site is just a "ho, hum, whatever" moment to me. I didn't even bother to read the whole whiny shill - and I'm betting I'm not alone.

Another classic example of Obama supporters not caring if we eat our own in the lead up to giving the repugs the election in November. I DON'T CARE THAT YOU HATE HILLARY much less need YOUR 25 reasons. I get it, your hatred is beyond anything reasonable or responsible or even humane. You don't care if you blast the Democratic party into smithereens, you will refuse to acknowledge we have two great candidates. It is all or nothing with some people. Vote for Hillary. Don't vote for her. But I fail to see how does it help our party to waste time and effort against one of our own. I just wish the posters who feel the need to post this tripe realize it doesn't help their candidate, just reeks of desperation. Especially when desperation isn't warranted. Both candidates are doing very well. Hurray for our side. And our side should be the Democratic one.

[leftofthedial]

44. most of the 25 items are legitimate issues. If Clinton and her supporters

can't face them now, the repuke hate machine will KILL her this summer and fall.

Right now, she's running against Obama. Obama supporters are not alone in criticizing the competition. A more effective response would be to rebut the issues, not just dismiss them out of hand.


I don't support either of these two candidates. I also don't hate either of these candidates. Seeing the HUGE turnout in Democratic primaries and caucuses is wonderful. I only wish we had a better candidate--one who TURLY represented change--to ride the wave of change that is sweeping the electorate.

[ClintonTyree]

235. Oh fer chrisakes.........

the right has dragged the Clintons through every mud puddle there is, over and over again. And she's SURVIVED! She's battle tested and hardened, which is more than I can say about young Mr. Obama.

The Obamoonies, with their glassy-eyed stares and permanent grins, are in for an extremely rude awakening if they think Obama will escape the Reich-wing attack machine. Here's all they'll have to say, over and over and over again, such is their modus operandi: Barack Husein Obama, educated in a Madrassa, and John McCain will waltz into the back door of the White House. Don't think for a moment that they won't so it.

Like it or not, whether it's fair or not, that's exactly what they'll do. If you can't see that already then your eyes have truly been glazed over by the Obama "star power".

The right-wing WILL NOT play fair with young Mr. Obama. And I don't think he (or his acolytes) will be able to withstand the withering attacks from the right-wing attack machine. He's sorely untested in that arena and all the "hope" and moon-eyed optimism in the world isn't going to protect him from it's onslaught.

[Bread and Circus]

46. You are what I consider to be willfully ignorant...

"I didn't even bother to read..." is the operative phrase.

Try reading something next time before you critique it.

[Democrat 4 Ever]

65. Willful ignorant because I am tired of the BS the Obama Maniacs spew on a daily basis?

I have heard it all before. I've read it all before - usually the repugs are just happy as a clam to offer it up. I just hate that I have to see it on a Democratic web site. You are proudly writing the repug talking points for them. Are you sure you aren't a McCain or Romney shill in disguise?

And I don't care what you consider me. I consider myself a freaking genius!

[Bread and Circus]

70. First off I mean ignorant in the sense that you have not made yourself

aware of the words that you critique. You are ignorant of them. I base this on the fact you said you didn't read them.

Secondly, it's against the rules to call people Republicans on this site. I've detailed this rule elsewhere in the thread.

Furthermore, I have been on this site for 4 years with several thousand posts under my belt. If I was a disruptor I would have been tombstoned a long time ago.

[Democrat 4 Ever]

72. I apologize for calling you a McCain or Romney shill.

Just wish you would observe the same courtesy when posting BS about a Democratic candidate. Your ah..., er.., enthusiasm is very counterproductive.

And do you honestly think you offered anything new or informative? Same ol', same ol'. Nothing different just because you found some time on your hands and a personal need to vent.

[Bread and Circus]

74. She's not yet the nominee, when she is I will shut up and go back to the environment/energy forum

[hfojvt]

123. What makes them BS?

If they are old, trivial, or false, then you should have long ago prepared or read rebuttals to them. Something you could link to every time they rear their hoary old heads.

Instead it just seems that there is a Clintonian demand to "shut up, shut up, shut up!" in the name of party unity. Don't give your opinion or bring up negative facts because we are in a war here and she is on our side.

Well, my side is the working class. And my observation is that she is not on my side. I think anybody else who is on my side, such as, say, EVERY MEMBER OF THIS PROGRESSIVE SITE, should be informed of that fact and of the evidence that leads me to that conclusion.

This isn't a DNC site, or a DCCC site. It is an independent site, presumably from the Democratic wing of the Democratic party. It's a wing the Clintons might not have much use for, but the feeling is generally very much mutual.

[Stranded]

159. Well said

' Instead it just seems that there is a Clintonian demand to "shut up, shut up, shut up!" in the name of party unity. '


This is, after all, an open forum. Discussion and debate do not equate to dissension but rather democracy.

[beezlebum]

112. willfully ignorant

"I didn't even bother to read the whole whiny shill"
yyyyeah. i consider that willfully ignorant. read it, then tell us why all 25 are "shillish." seriously- i'm dying to have someone explain all of this to me. not a bunch of warm fuzzy corksucking- i want to know why all this crap is excusable and acceptable to so many people. b/c i have been so depressed under bush and goddammit if i have to face another 4-8 years in this state of mind, i'm going to be on blood pressure medication before my mid-30s.

waste of bandwidth indeed.

repub talking points are more like, "this country is not ready for a female president," and "bill got a hummer in the OO! my children learned what a blow job was b/c of him!" and "the turrists will git us if we lct a woomin/clinton!"

do facts bother you? what do you want? sentiment and a soft blankie? "it's time for a woman!" or "viva clintonista!"

woohoo. i can't wait for the next 4-8. :hurts:

[RaleighNCDUer]

142. You obviously didn't read the post because the objections are not

the RIGHT'S reasons for hating Hillary, but PROGRESSIVES' reasons for not wanting her.

The right has a whole OTHER list.

But you, of course, are more motivated by your hatred of Obama than concern for the Democratic party, aren't you.

[Yael]

230. Well stated.

I would have thought this was clear, but apparently it needed to be said.

[bagrman]

229. As a good comrade, you don't think airing our own dirty laundry first is better

then having the Repubs do it. The Clintons history goes way back to Arkansas where the CIA was bringing in Cocaine to pay for the guns to go to the Contras. The only reason that it didn't make big news is Bill cut off the funding to the investigation once in the White House and it died on the vine. You read this stuff and can only say that we shouldn't pick on our own, I don't claim these people as our own, they cast a dark shadow on our whole process.

[ClintonTyree]

236. I don't have to read the entire bible.......

to know that it's mostly bullshit either. So what's your point? Reading every adjective and dangling participle is going to make the gist of the screed any different? :eyes:

[RaleighNCDUer]

141. So you're saying, Fuck the party.

You are suggesting that Democrats are angels to Republican devils, but Democrats are not gods nor angels. They are people, just like the people on the other side of the aisle.

Democrats are the better party because of their principles. When we kowtow to politicians who abuse those principles, hiring criminals like Penn, abandoning blocks of Democrats who have less to offer that Republican lobbyists, just for the sake of winning we are saying Fuck the party - fuck our principles.

This is not a fucking football game where we cheer for our side. This is about how we position ourselves in the universe, how we appear to the world. And if we show we have no principles, the world will know it.

Perhaps you need to go back and READ the objections. Do a little googling on those points, like Mark Penn and Iran/Contra, about how the DLC has moved the party you profess to like so far to the right that it makes Eisenhower look like a leftist.

You might note, the OP said nothing about her 'cackle' or crying or any other bullshit non-reason for disliking Hillary - it was ALL about positions, positioning, principles or lack thereof, and the basic quality of trustworthiness. To dismiss all that without even reading it just proves you to be a fucking asshole - but then you'll never know I said that because you won't read this far here, either.

[Recursion]

147. You know what? I put my country before my party

We can't take this anymore. I mean that.

[Finite]

168. To be fair

The poster has given 25 clearly stated reasons why he won't vote for Clinton, and you're trying to avoid addressing them, just dismissing him as a HATER.

Why not address his points?

[f the letter]

226. i wish i didn't have to vote for Obama,

but i hope i get the chance to. It's a major step up from Clinton and i'm not quite ready to defect from the party.

[UALRBSofL]

6. I hope the Hillary supporters don't feel that way about Obama

Because if they did, then we should go ahead and anoint McCain the president.

[Recursion]

11. Why did the "New Coke" marketing campaign fail?

Anybody know?

[Occam Bandage]

19. Because despite the fact that people preferred it in blind taste-tests,

a large and extraordinarily vocal minority found the change to be offensive, as they believed Coca-Cola to be an American institution.

[Recursion]

149. Well, the canonical answer is...

..."because people didn't like New Coke".

Actually I think it was a masterful ploy on Coca-Cola's part to raise interest in their normal recipe. Their "new coke" recipe, ironically, with aspartame substituted for sugar, is Diet Coke, the most popular diet soda in the world.

[donheld]

166. See this

http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/newcoke.asp

[yardwork]

37. Speaking for myself, I don't. You won't see me spread right-wing crap about Obama.

It's against the rules of this message board to state that one won't support the Democratic nominee.

[Bread and Circus]

67. Actually, it is you that is breaking the rules:

This is where you broke the rules:

Civility:

Do not publicly accuse another member of this message board of being a disruptor, conservative, Republican, FReeper, or troll, or do not otherwise imply they are not welcome on Democratic Underground. If you think someone is a disruptor, click the "Alert" link below their post to let the moderators know.

_________________________________

This is where you say (inaccurately) I broke the rules:

Democratic Candidates and the Democratic Party

Constructive criticism of Democrats or the Democratic Party is permitted. When doing so, please keep in mind that most of our members come to this website in order to get a break from the constant attacks in the media against our candidates and our values. Highly inflammatory or divisive attacks that echo the tone or substance of our political opponents are not welcome here.

You are not permitted to use this message board to work for the defeat of the Democratic Party nominee for any political office. If you wish to work for the defeat of any Democratic candidate in any General Election, then you are welcome to use someone else's bandwidth on some other website.

Democratic Underground may not be used for political, partisan, or advocacy activity by supporters of any political party or candidate other than the Democratic Party or Democratic candidates. Supporters of certain other political parties may use Democratic Underground for limited partisan activities in political races where there is no Democratic Party candidate.

Do not post broad-brush smears against Democrats or the Democratic Party.


I bolded the important rule that you are referring to. What you fail to acknowlege is that Hillary Clinton is not the current nominee of our party. We still have a race going on. And until then, both candidates are fair game for reasonable arguments.

[RaleighNCDUer]

143. Well, then you have to get into the discussion if the DLC are

Democrats.

[Recursion]

10. The Left's complaints about Clinton...

...are nothing, and I mean nothing, compared to what the right will pull out against her.

But she's pissed off the left for quite a while, and as far as I can see his points are good ones.

[leftofthedial]

27. if one does not support Clinton, they must be

a repuke plant
a repuke shill
or
a woman hater

it couldn't possibly be that Clinton has provided abundant reasons not to support her.

[yardwork]

38. Obama is just about the same as Clinton on the issues.

The fact is, we're stuck with two centrist-right Democratic candidates. It's not an option to vote Republican. We have to choose between the centrists. I don't like it but I sure as hell won't do the Republican's work for them.

[leftofthedial]

47. We should rejoice!

Americans are turning out in record numbers to vote for Amurkan corporations!

You're right. There is very little difference between Clinton an Obama in terms of their records. You are WAY too kind though to call them "centrist." Both are conservatives and neither has positions that promise any real change to the status quo whatsoever, despite their incessant rhetoric to the contrary.

[Bread and Circus]

53. You just haven't done your homework...

Saying there's no difference between Clinton and Obama is just lazy.

[yardwork]

58. Yeah, right.

[Bread and Circus]

62. "Yeah right" << That's what my 7 year old daughter says when she's fed up with dad

and I tell her to do something that she doesn't want to do.

I don't know what it says about you but there it is.

[Recursion]

85. You're ignoring the question of transparency. Clinton nearly killed Obama's ethics reform bill.

Obama is at least promising transparent government.

Maybe he'll fail.

But Clinton doesn't even want to try. Even if she could succeed at making government transparent she doesn't want to. She fought harder than any Senate Democrat against Obama's ethics reform package.

I don't think either would propose a plan significantly different from one the other would (all these contrasts among the "big three's" health plans are red herrings, IMO; they're essentially the same). What's so very very different, and let me add, what many of us Obama supporters are so passionate about, is the manner they want to effect them. Transparently, or opaquely. Can you imagine Clinton doing the kind of open contracting database Obama is pushing? I can't. Can you imagine Clinton banning all executive branch lobbying by former employees? I can't.

[Bread and Circus]

105. Thank you, because those are concepts I have yet to articulate and you

have done so well.

[RaleighNCDUer]

145. But only one of them hired Mark Penn. nt

[yardwork]

36. This one sounds like a Romney supporter - has for a long time.

[Bread and Circus]

55. You sound like Joseph McCarthy a lot more than anyone around here sounds like Romney

[yardwork]

59. You probably know a lot about Joe McCarthy.

[Bread and Circus]

61. Yeah I do, and you are sounding just like him tryin to "out" the communists...

it was a bullshit tactic back then, it's a bullshit tactic now.

[yardwork]

77. Romney is not a communist. If he's told you this, he's lying.

[Iktomiwicasa]

116. Yup

It's a sad day when one cannot be critical of their own side without being accused of being the enemy. Keep 'em coming :)

[gmudem]

110. You need to grow up

Every single point Bread and Circus makes is completely legitimate. Just because you may not like those perfectly valid points, doesn't mean a person who states them is a Republican.

[papau]

108. LOL - we tried "yes, we can" & "bring all together" in Mass with Deval Patrick - & it doesn't work

I voted for Deval and worked for Deval - and Deval has not been a bad governor - just an average governor.

Obama would be the same.

If one wants change, and I do, it will only come via Hillary.

[druidity33]

184. Deval has his own issues...

don't confuse them with Obama's. Do we expect that the US Congress will be obstructive to the new Administration? The MA legislature is FUCKED UP, don't blame it all on Patrick.

Actually, other than both being black men riding a wave of popular support to topple a disastrous Republication, all the while spreading the hope of "change"... i see few similarities.

What i'm bothered by about Obama is that he has taken Health Care mandates "off the table". There is no successful Universal Health Care program in the world that does not have mandates. Universal care won't work without them. Now that he's stood up against them, he will be seen as a flip-flopper when he discovers they will be necessary.

:shrug:

[frylock]

115. another excellent refutation..

get some new material.

[BlueEyedSon]

216. Because all the remaining candidates are perfect.

[Gonnuts]

231. One of two

15 million people that marched against attacking Iraq knew it was wrong along with many millions more that couldn't join them on the streets around the world. This old man sitting on his couch knew it was a bad idea and I don't have access to information Sen. Clinton has, yet we're supposed to believe she was misinformed?

One of two: either she is a warmongering lying cretin or she's too damn dumb for the job because by her own admission she said she was fooled.

Take your pick.

[Recursion]

3. Spot F'ing on

What can I say? I see it pretty much the same way.

[boricua79]

5. excellent list

For the same reasons, I voted Obama yesterday, and would seriously consider staying home in the GE if she was the nominee.

The Democrat party does not have my vote unless it offers me the candidate I want...and that's Obama.

Clinton can go back to being a Senator.

[TheDebbieDee]

12. "The Democrat party does not have my vote......"

Democrat party? You sound like a repuke......

[peace frog]

16. Yep, 'Democrat party'

is a dead give-away. So transparent, it's hilarious.

[golddigger]

176. Yep, that right there said it all "Democrat Party"...n/t

:mad: :banghead: :argh:

[boricua79]

17. why?

I'm an independent, with Socialist-Green sensibilities, who usually votes Democratic when there are important issues at stake. I voted Nader in 2000, Kerry in 2004, and will vote Obama (if he's nominated) this year.

Where does that spell out Repuke?

You need to get off the paranoia pills.

[yardwork]

40. It's the Democratic Party. Only Republicans call it the "Democrat Party."

[boricua79]

133. where do you get THAT delusion

and what's wrong with calling it the "democrat" party. We are the party of DEMOCRATS. People affiliated with the Democratic party are called Democrats, and people in the GOP are called Republicans.

and what's wrong with being considered a Democrat...better than autocrat or theocrat.

Political Correctness radar going crazy!

[Jim Lane]

164. Leaving aside issues about Nader and Clinton: Do NOT call us the "Democrat Party"; here's why....

It happens that, on our side, the noun and adjective are different, even though they're the same on the other side.

You're a Republican if you're a member of the Republican Party.
You're a Democrat if you're a member of the Democratic Party.

This "Democrat Party" business (and, more generally, the use of "Democrat" as an adjective) is employed principally by right wingers. "There’s no great mystery about the motives behind this deliberate misnaming. 'Democrat Party' is a slur, or intended to be - a handy way to express contempt. Aesthetic judgments are subjective, of course, but 'Democrat Party' is jarring verging on ugly. It fairly screams 'rat.'" (from Hendrik Hertzberg)

For an extensive treatment of the issue, with multiple citations (including a reference to DU), see the Wikipedia article about the phrase: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democrat_Party_%28phrase%29

If you don't want to read that much, just make your life easier and say "Democratic Party". If you write, "The Democratic Party has sold out to the corporations," I'll consider your argument on the merits. If you write, "The Democrat Party has sold out to the corporations," I'm much more likely to dismiss you out of hand. Call it unjust or petty, if you want, but that's the way many of us feel.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

183. Democ"rat" party, ala those lovely Couter talking points. If you insist on that usage,

go ahead. The only correct term is Democratic party. And, I will PC the heck out of anyone who tries to post that little dog whistle here.

[skepticscott]

96. Well, let's see...

If people hadn't voted "their conscience" for Nader back in 2000, we'd have had 8 years of Al Gore instead of 8 years of Shrubbie. How does your consciences cope with that stark reality? Sit there for a couple minutes and really think about how different a country and a world this would be right now if all the Nader voters (including you) had cast for Gore instead. Supporting Nader at the expense of the Democratic nominee gave the Republicans the biggest boost they've had since 1980, and allowed them to get a stranglehold on the executive branch that may take the country decades to recover from.

[frylock]

125. if my aunt had nads she'd be my uncle

[boricua79]

134. I voted in MA

where I knew Gore would win the state, so my conscience is just fine.

ANd I thought the subsequent research proved Gore won Florida ANYWAY, with Nader votes in the mix too...so let's get off that old "nader killed it for gore" meme.

I sleep just fine. It's the Republicans who have to sleep with conscience issues.

Nice try at blaming Greens...THAT will work to get us to support Democratic candidates in the future! :sarcasm:

[skepticscott]

240. Would you have voted for Nader in Florida?

Would you have voted for Nader in Florida if yours had been the last vote cast and counted, knowing that if you vote for Nader or don’t vote, Bush wins and if you vote for Gore, Gore wins? Or do you only vote your “conscience” if you're convinced it doesn't matter and there are no possible adverse consequences?

The cold hard truth is that over 90,000 people voted for Nader in Florida in 2000, and the official count had Gore losing by less than 600. You can whine all you want that people SHOULD have been able to vote for Nader in Florida without it making a difference, but the undeniable fact is that it did. And no, people voting for Nader is not the ONLY reason Gore lost, but it is the one reason that people who claimed to be against everything that they knew George Bush was about had control over. Despite all the illegal voter purges and election day corruption, if everyone who voted for Nader had gone for Gore, Gore would have won Florida and the country. "Subsequent research" didn't mean squat in real life.

The fact that you voted in a “safe” state changes nothing. If you supported Nader and tried to convince others to vote for him, if you gave him money or attended any of his events, you provided encouragement without which he would not have run at all and are complicit in any result of that candidacy. Your intentions in voting for Nader , noble though they may have seemed to you, are also not the only issue. Despite your good intentions, the foreseeable consequences of your actions are also an issue, and you and all of the other Nader voters bear partial responsibility for those consequences. That supporting Nader might hurt Al Gore and help put George Bush in the White House was not only foreseeable, it was foreseen. Why else did the practice of vote-swapping crop up, whereby people living in a state expected to have a close race but wanting to have a vote cast for Nader, would swap their Nader vote for the Gore vote of someone living in a “safe” state? This only happened because the Nader voters knew that: A. voting for Nader could hurt Gore and help Bush; and B. helping Bush was bad. Ironically, those people, who so often complain that their vote no longer makes a difference, arranged to cast their vote precisely so it WOULDN’T make a difference.

Are you really saying that you'd be happier with the situation of being completely satisfied with your vote in 2000, but having 8 years of GWB than you would be with being less than completely satisfied with your vote but having 8 years of Al Gore? And are you saying that with the thought in mind of the hundreds of thousands, if not millions of innocent people who have suffered and died as a result of Bush’s policies and who would not have if Gore had been president?

And what is with this "I'm not going to support the Democrats/Clinton/Obama because someone who supports the Democrats/Clinton/Obama wasn't nice to me" attitude? How do mature, rational people make political decisions based on that, instead of on the issues?

[baldguy]

137. Its the difference between a proper adjective and the proper noun its derived from.

In English, you don't go to a Japan restaurant, but a Japanese restaurant. You don't see a Medic doctor about your hernia, you see a Medical doctor. You don't have religion faith, you have religious faith.

Republicans insist on saying "Democrat" Party because it is dismissive and therefor pejorative.

[boricua79]

139. so? That's them

That's not me. What's so dismissive about saying "Democrat party". Party of people who think government by the people is best. Wow...so dismissive!

Weaker than Repuke, or anything else we come up with.

Bigger issues to fight about and for....

[baldguy]

140. Did I also mention that it makes you look stupid?

[boricua79]

204. because baldguy said so

What makes people look stupid is when they nitpick over Democrat/Democratic.

Bigger issues to talk about. You're exactly why I don't get involved in "Democratic" organizations. There's always some of you damned "purists" who, on top of working in the organization, want to auto-denominate yourselves the party "morality police".

Keep moving, nitpicker.

[samq79]

220. Slurs of any type only gain power

if you let them. You have to choose to be offended at a simple grammatical error. The only reason conservatives continue to use it is that they know it raises the hackles of the die-hard purists. And if we're gonna get all up in arms, we should turn the focus on ourselves. Turn the find function on in your browser and search through the average thread for the word "repug." I'm sure you'll find more than one. I'm not saying their right to use the name of the democratic party in an incorrect and pejorative way, but let's get some perspective here.

Also, let's not get off topic here. this is about whether Hillary Clinton is a suitable candidate for the democratic nomination. Based on all I know about her, and all I have learned from Bread and Circus, I would say no, and that is my right as a discerning democrat who has already voted in the primary, and is just waiting for the delegate results from the rest of the country.

I will continue to rally against Clinton right up until the nominee is decided. At that point, I will make my decision!

[Radio_Lady]

165. Good grammar lesson for this grandmother! Thank you, Bald Guy.

I have never seen it stated that way. We are Democrats in the Democratic Party.

You do have one tiny error in the last sentence. Let's be honest: therefore

And, now to sleep, perhaps to dream...

of a United States of America, with a Democrat at its helm -- and a free and unfettered feeling again.

'night now...

Radio Lady in Oregon

[madmunchie]

22. Give me a break, since when do we OWE the Democratic Party

our vote? Our vote is supposed to be one of our most precious rights - something to cherish and use wisely. If a candidate reeks with dis-qualifiers, where does it say in our Constitution that we HAVE to vote?

And the name-calling is totally REPUKE....mentality.

[TheDebbieDee]

48. Oooooops! I thought you were talking to me. Sorry!

[skepticscott]

101. How is withholding your vote using it wisely?

For some reason, a lot of people seem to think that the primary purpose of voting is to make themselves feel good about their choice, with the ultimate welfare of the country and the world being no more than a secondary concern. Your primary responsibility as a voter and as a citizen is not to make yourself feel warm and fuzzy, but to make the country as good a place as possible for as many people as possible. In no conceivable way can you accomplish that by staying home on election day. You may not be overjoyed with the choices given you, but the self- indulgent attitude of "If I can't have the candidate I want, I'm gonna take my vote and go home" accomplishes nothing. When it comes down to it in November, either the Democratic or the Republican nominee is going to be president and no amount of wishing upon a star for something better isn't going to change that. You can either make the best choice possible, or admit you don't care if we get another 8 years of Republican, neo-conservative control.

[boricua79]

136. that's nice and noble that you think that

but that's your opinion only. I share it...but I know others don't. The point of the vote is to represent that each citizen has the right to exercise his political opinions in a free society, even if those political opinions support candidates whose platforms exclude others. I vote Democrat or even Green because I tend to like candidates who have more altruistic intents...but you know what, that's not everyone. Many people in this country are concerned about making sure their economic interest is safeguarded by some old white fart who promises them protection from the masses. And that's the way of democracy.

By staying home, you're sending your most profound "I don't like the crap you're offering". It's the best way to "teach" the party never to do that again. And I will surely "teach" the Democratic party to give me candidates which represent the people. If they nominate DLC Hillary, I will "teach" them to never do it again by staying home. We've been teaching the Democratic party to take us for granted by always giving them our vote because "it's the best we can get". Screw that. The best I can get is staying home when shit is being offered.

[skepticscott]

170. That's very noble too

but the only problem is, it doesn't work. How many permanent and positive changes in Democratic Party or national policy can you cite that have come about as a result of people staying home on election day or voting for people like Ralph Nader or John Anderson? Are all the people who complain that nothing changes with regard to our electoral choices dead wrong? And who you get to vote for in the GE is not just a matter of Democratic party maneuvering. It does have a little something to do with actual votes cast for candidates seeking the nomination, by people like you. The person who comes out of that may not represent your interests perfectly (as if anyone ever could), but to say that means they don't represent "the people" is just arrogant and self-indulgent. The election is not just about you or your interests. Are you saying Barack Obama is not represented by the "people" who send him money, volunteer for him and enthusiatically support him with their votes?

And yes, we have choices in a Democracy and that's great. But with those choices comes responsibility for the negative consequences of those choices, a concept which Nader voters and stay-at-home non-voters seem to reject.

[EstimatedProphet]

182. No you're not

The actual message you send by staying home is "I don't care". That at least has been the interpretation of politicos for years now as to why only half or less of potential voters show up. They will assume that you don't care, and they will analyze your not caring, and they will come up with the answer that you weren't excited by the candidates. Meanwhile, the person who wins - the Repub - will be given credit for exciting candidates, and all the politicos will proclaim that we need more candidates like the Repub. This is how we've gotten into this mess. Doing more of the same is only going to make it worse.

[boricua79]

135. tell it to the "how dare you vote for Nader" poster above

Instead of getting angry at us Naderites of 2000, they should be angry that the best candidate the Dems could put forward was about as charming as an ironing board.

I respect Mr. Gore and what's he done with his political life, but inspirational is just not his thing. Seriously...of thousands of Dems...they couldn't find someone with some charisma?

Well...they did...Obama...but now they want to replace him with a woman who rubs many people the wrong way. So we're damned if we do and damned if we don't.

[PhilipDC]

211. Inspirational?

Inspirational?!! That's how you're picking a Presidential candidate?! And you picked Nader over Gore?! That makes sense...

I'm voting in Virginia next week and haven't decided yet between Clinton and Obama. I think Clinton is more ready to be President, but Obama is probably more electable. But whether they can make a stirring speech is not a factor I'm considering. I honestly think the whole post-partisan thing is naive. The Republicans in Congress will chew that up and spit it out.

[skepticscott]

241. This is a democracy

You were perfectly within your rights to choose to vote for Nader. My actual point was "How dare you vote for Nader and then disavow any responsibility for the consequences of that choice?"

[Kittycat]

7. I agree.

I don't see myself voting puke, but I don't see myself voting for her either.

Not much more needs to be added beyond that.

[kid a]

8. agreed...25 for 25!

[Occam Bandage]

9. 26. You want to see more conservatives on the Supreme Court.

27. You want to see four to eight more years of Republican vetoes of Democratic bills.
28. You want to see a foreign policy dedicated to starting war with Iran.
29. You think the Constitution is a goddamn piece of paper.

She is a liberal. McCain is a conservative. If she wins the nomination, and if you don't vote for her, you're as stupid as the people who voted against Gore (for largely the exact same reasons you cite) in 2000.

[peace13]

21. Boo.

You try to scare people and it is Hillary who back ,oh, six months ago was banging the drum for war with Iran. Go figure.

[Occam Bandage]

25. Yes, "boo" reminding people that McCain is 1,000 times worse than Hillary.

:eyes:

[peace13]

45. No...boo war with Iran. Your gal would be there too!

Check the video of the words coming out of here mouth. Peace, Kim

[Occam Bandage]

54. My gal? Check the avatar.

[Bread and Circus]

26. I said I don't think I could "support" her. That has nothing to do with

how I would vote.

I live in Michigan. It will go Democratic either way. My vote won't matter in any practical sense.

If I had the last vote in the last election in the last swing state that would be THE deciding vote between Clinton and McCain, I would give it to Clinton.

However, in the real world, all I can really give is a vote that won't make a real difference and logistical support (money, volunteering, persuading friends and family, getting out the vote). I will not gladly give her my vote and I certainly won't give her my support.

By the way - I voted Clinton, Clinton, Gore, Kerry. Do not dare to be so arrogant to think you can tell me what to personally do with my vote. Everyone has a right to vote how they wish without being bullied about it.

[kath]

160. H. Clinton is no liberal.

She (and the DLC) are considerably to the right of many 1950s and 60s Republicans.

[TacticalPeek]

13. Without this kind of thinking, President Gore would be finishing his second term.

:(

[Recursion]

15. And if a frog had wings...

...he wouldn't bump his ass a-hoppin'

Why Clinton's supporters have such blinders to the real, nearly palpable disdain a lot of the country holds their candidate in is beyond me.

[TacticalPeek]

23. "They are unanimous in their hate for me--and I welcome their hatred."

That would be FDR talking.

Lots of palpable disdain for Hillary in my neck of the woods, and it comes mostly from Dixicrats, warmongers, the fat cat rich, and chauvinist pigs.

I, too, welcome their hatred and would never want to pick my candidate to grub for their votes.

I WELCOME it, I tell you.

[Kitsune]

30. Hillary is no FDR.

And I am no Dixiecrat, warmonger, fat cat, or chauvinist. Just because I think Hillary Clinton is a terrible candidate with far too much baggage and too much commitment to the status quo does not mean I am some crazy anti-Democratic right-wing plant.

(And just for the record, I am not that keen on Barack Obama either, for some of the same reasons and some that are unique to him, but, well, see how far that gets me when my state's more than a month after Iowa...)

[RaleighNCDUer]

151. Why would the warmongers have disdain for Hillary, who never

saw a war vote she didn't like?

[TacticalPeek]

162. I guess that is a question for you.

It's pretty clear the RW hates Hillary, bigtime.

Do you realize your question implies that they don't? Try rethinking it.

[RaleighNCDUer]

242. The right and the left dislike Hillary for completely different reasons.

The right hates her because she (under DLC tutelage) co-opts the right's base by stealing their positions - like the war.

The left can't trust her because she (under DLC tutelage) has repeately abandoned the (non-feminist) left in her striving for votes to the right.

Just because she agrees with the right about the war doesn't mean there isn't plenty there for them to despise. She will NEVER get the moderates and right the way the DLC preaches, because they will prefer to support one of their own who holds those positions. The only success the DLC has ever had was with Bill, and that was made possible only by Perot being in the running.

[Bread and Circus]

28. Gore > Clinton. And I gladly voted for Gore. Shaking off the Clinton

albatross once and for all is what elevated him to his current status as statesman to the world.

[TexasObserver]

14. Agree generally, but might be a little strong

I could vote for her, but don't want to have to do that. I'd prefer to have someone from the Democratic wing of the Democratic party.

[unpossibles]

18. I have three scary words why I would vote for her: President John McCain

and three more if those aren't scary enough: The Supreme Court

[JimGinPA]

41. A Hiilary Nomination Assures Just What You Fear...

A McCain presidency & more right-wing nutjobs on the Supreme Court. The rethugs will be so galvinized against her she could never be elected.

[unpossibles]

51. in the Primaries, true

I prefer Obama by far, but if she gets the nomination I will gladly vote for her.

[baldguy]

126. All the more reason for Democrats to support the Democratic candidate

No matter who it ends up being.

[Indenturedebtor]

20. Yep

I'll still vote for her though whatever good it will do in the GE... If she wins the nom. I have high hopes that she wont! :bounce:

But if she does at least I can be happy to vote by category - "Woman Democrat" is better than "Jackass Puke" any day.

[Yael]

29. If you can still edit -- you should put spaces between your line items

that is incredibly difficult to read.

[Bread and Circus]

31. Thanks, I fixed it. I wrote in on the fly.

[in_cog_ni_to]

33. That's ridiculous.

and shameful.

[Bread and Circus]

39. try reading it next time.

[in_cog_ni_to]

64. No thanks. I've read enough of your Hillary bashing threas. n/t

[Bread and Circus]

84. well, at least you are honest in saying that you didn't read it.

As an INTP, I can appreciate that.

[crawfish]

34. Great points.

Tough to argue that.

[yardwork]

35. I think that you got all the right-wing talking points in there. Will you get a bonus?

[mtnsnake]

42. Good for you. For every one of you who can't support her, there are a thousand who will

because most mainstream Dems feel entirely different about her than those with your veiwpoints do.

[Bread and Circus]

52. All 40%ish of them. So why after all this "inevitibility" she's had for 3+ years has the party

not coalesced around her?

Why after every time some one drops out of the race nearly all of that support goes to her opponents?

Nationally, she polls the same as she did in January, she's gained none or near zero traction.

Have you ever really asked yourself why, beyond her "core constituencies" that have been polling her way for years, has she not been able to flip the dial?

By this time Kerry had the nomination sewn up.

[mod mom]

43. OF COURSE! THEY WANT TO RUN AGAINST HER!

[Apollo11]

49. Out of 25 points, maybe 3 are valid.

I can see 2 and 3. Maybe 7.

#19 really made me laugh. :rofl:

Whoever gets inaugurated in January 2009 will start running for 2012 from day one.

Who wants to be a one-term President? :eyes:

[RaleighNCDUer]

154. The point is, on 19, that every decision she makes will be for

political calculation based on the '12 election - that means doing nothing about NAFTA, or DOMA, or anything else that the repukes like, for fear of alienating the right. That means no prosecution of the Bush criminals, so they will come back stronger than ever, as they did after Bill. That means again throwing the progressives under the bus, for the sake of independent centrists. That means stripping out any progressive measures in her healthcare plan and turning all the decisions over to the insurance companies.

Take NO strong positions. Be vague. Don't piss ANYBODY off. The DLC plan to win elections and gut the Democratic party.

[PhilipDC]

213. Votes

Haven't Obama's votes in the Senate been just as calculated? The guy was running for President almost as soon as he got to Washington. And they've only differed on like 3 major votes (see CQ story yesterday).

[Armstead]

50. You stole my list.....(Not really, but I agree with almost all of that)

She represents all that has been wrong with the Democratic Party for the last 20 years.

Why keep repeating destructive failures?

[HughBeaumont]

56. 26) Trade and offshoring stances that come straight outta the Cato Institute.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/GC01Df03.html
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/538674.cms
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/593175.cms

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhLBSLLIhUs
Hillary pushes for more h1-b visas and outsourcing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLNOSGM2jK4
Hillary Clinton's hypocrisy (part 1)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgdrh2Bc95M
Hillary Clinton's hypocrisy (part 2)

A weeks-unbathed elephant in the room that her supporters whistle dixie awful loudly around.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

57. The Cato Institute and "Liberal" Paul Krugman. nt

[Bread and Circus]

60. Thanks but I think my fingers would fall off I tried to list every last dumb

thing she wraps herself around.

[HughBeaumont]

63. Trust me, I think you're gonna get a lot of additions to this list.

That's the one backbreaker about her I find particularly disgusted by. I'm from Ohio. NAFTA and free trade decimated manufacturing and industry in this state.

[Bread and Circus]

87. That's trued I didn't even mention NAFTA or the bankruptcy bills.

[harun]

76. 27) Will not commit to holding B*sh/Cheney accountable after the

election.

[Xithras]

93. Thank you, I was going to post that. The Clintons cost us millions of union jobs.

NAFTA, the WTO trade agreements, all were accomplished under the Clinton watch. Every U.S. job that has moved to Mexico in the past decade has done so because of NAFTA, which was by HIS OWN DECLARATION a top priority of the Clinton White House. In any website or publication extolling the virtues of Bill, they invariably list NAFTA as an "accomplishment".

Hillary Clinton is also tight with the owners of Tata, an Indian tech outsourcing firm, and has stated her support to increase the H1-B visa limit with displaces American tech workers by permitting low-wage Asian workers to enter the United States and take their place.

A vote for Hillary is a vote for more "free trade" and outsourcing.

[psychopomp]

66. Well-thought and well-articulated

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

68. I certainly cannot support her

for several of the reasons you have stated, particularly points #5, #10 and #18. I'd rather take a chance on an unknown, however risky that might be, than risk my vote on a candidate who has definitely proved that she is untrustworthy.

[Enrique]

69. I wonder if #25 is the key reason

and #1-#24 are rationalizations.

[Bread and Circus]

73. Actually, I think they are all separate but related and #25 is due to my

INTP Myers-Briggs personality type which means I have a low tolerance for unprincipled people. If you really want to "see inside my brain" here you go:

I bolded the important part for the too long: didn't read crowd

Primary Axis: Introverted Thinking - Extraverted Intuition

The INTP is above all a thinker and his inner (private) world is a place governed by a strong sense of logical structure. Every experience is to be rigorously analysed, the task of the INTP's mind is to fit each encountered idea or experience into a larger structure defined by logic. For here is the central goal of the INTP: to understand and seek truth. The experience of anything takes a back seat. The INTP is not interested in experiences themselves but is far more fascinated by concepts. The drive to understand things that are not yet understood is a very powerful force in the life of an INTP. Where the Ti preference is strong, this drive can override the experiential element so strongly that the INTP will become quickly bored with anything that he has successfully analysed to the point of understanding it. Once understood, it has nothing left to offer, once the satisfaction which comes with achieving the goal of understanding diminishes. Indeed, most primary interests of an INTP are things which he cannot fully understand, usually because they are highly complex or have some exotic, mystical element that does not yield to analysis. This is the real reason why INTPs are drawn to complexity: anything simple is too quickly understood and cannot hold the fascination for long. Similarly, proficiency in any area (which requires continual practice after understanding) is not such a driving force as it might be for NTJs, for example. While a judging NT will often seek to become master of his field, an INTP is satisfied by analysing it alone.

Finally, the dominant Ti function means that the INTP takes his interests and beliefs very seriously. Honesty and directness when explaining these interests are usually displayed. INTPs detest facades and particulary dislike people who exhibit them. Equally, those kind of people also dislike INTPs and avoid them at all cost, for they know that the INTP will see right through them. The INTP's serious nature also makes them almost immune to mockery and being made fun of, at least when face to face with their mocker. If someone attempts to make a sarcastic, mocking comment about an interest of an INTP, the latter will defend himself with a pure, almost naive seriousness, explaining his position with a severe exactness, wielding his words like swords. This almost always disarms the mocker who does not expect such a penetrating defence. The INTPs defence usually also contains a subtle but biting attack thrown back in the mocker's face, chiefly because the INTP cannot entirely hide the fact that he believes his opponent to be stupid.

Here are examples of famous INTP's

Famous INTPs:

Socrates
Rene Descartes
Blaise Pascal
Sir Isaac Newton

U.S. Presidents:
James Madison
John Quincy Adams
John Tyler
Dwight D. Eisenhower
Gerald Ford

William Harvey (pioneer in human physiology)
C. G. Jung, (Freudian defector, author of Psychological Types, etc.)
William James
Albert Einstein
Tom Foley (Speaker of the House--U.S. House of Representatives)
Henri Mancini
Bob Newhart
Jeff Bingaman, U.S. Senator (D.--NM)
Rick Moranis (Honey, I Shrunk The Kids)
Midori Ito (ice skater, Olympic silver medalist)
Tiger Woods

__________________________________________________________________________________________________

So there, now you can see why I don't like Hillary. It's because she's a fake and INTP's don't like fake people.

[Yael]

80. This was eye opening

I am an INTP as well. I guess I forgot about that trait.

Maybe the reason I stood behind JRE so passionately -- I believed he was speaking from the gut, not for 'political' reasons (all things to all people).

Thanks for laying out your concerns. I share many of them.

[Dogmudgeon]

153. Umm ... I usually test INTP

I think you got to the core of it. You just don't like her.

It's a feeling, isn't it?

"So there, now you can see why I don't like Hillary. It's because she's a fake and INTP's don't like fake people."

Why do so many different kinds of people (according to the MBPI) hate Hillary?

One of the things I've picked up on recently is how similar the complaints about Hillary are. The charges appear to come from a few common sources. Not just thematically, but down to identical sentence structures and use of words. It is uncanny. You only see that in very coercive or emotionalistic social groups. And Obama's campaign fits that description. Not coercive, certainly not -- but the emotional "kick" is one of the major rewards of being an "Obamaniac".

The Obama "movement" (and when was the last time a politician rode to fame in a democracy by building a movement?) has picked up the RW narrative about Hillary being deceitful and dishonest, and is propagating it at full throttle. I have NEVER gotten a straight answer out of ANYONE explaining how and why Hillary is so dishonest and "fake". They start by listing a few of the things they didn't like with Bill's policies, and stammer off into "I just know. Everybody knows. I feel it." A few policy flubs and disagreements -- or even many -- can't explain a million people outraged that the Clintons' every action is motivated by a craven lust for power. And if that was the case, they would have already adjudged themselves to be failures.

Like OJ, Hillary has been convicted by acclaim. Unlike OJ, there is no evidence whatsoever to support the conviction. People who believe it just know it. It is by feeling.

Is that a good way to evaluate presidential candidates?

Hillary, in fact, has been an unusually forthright politician. So has Bill, for that matter, his lying about Monica Lewinsky not withstanding. The actual "proof" of their lies, treachery, fakery and deceit is simply a durable set of narratives crafted by their hard-core enemies and carried by previously-uninvolved observers. When you have a million people looking for "proof" to justify an unusually intense feeling, they will usually find it, which is why such trivial incidents have been puffed into grandiose outrage.

Look -- if you are convinced of something, I will not try to argue you out of it. I can't reach into your brain and pluck the bad memes out of your head. But I do urge you to continually re-examine your ideas and emotionally-charged beliefs. Many of the reasons we all have for especially strong beliefs are composed of the thinnest tissue of fantasies, hopes and stories. The soul of the INTP should be used to this self-examination; it will not have been the first time you have found a strong opinion to be erroneous.

And the idea is not to convince you how to vote. It is to convince you that strong feelings are seldom rational. You could generate hundreds of reasons to despise Hillary Clinton -- but there is only one feeling at work, unfathomable at that, which has set a million minds to the task of proving Hillary Clinton to be superhumanly demonic.

And who wants to be intellectually controlled by a small number of non-rational feelings?

If you disagree or think I am using my own brand of mojo, I understand.

Then explain to me why *I* should reject Hillary Clinton's candidacy -- and do it objectively and dispassionately. If you're right, you should be able to do so easily without relying on "passion".

And if you're right, why do you?

--p!

[RaleighNCDUer]

155. I think you could only wonder that if you did not read 1-24. nt

[Hell Hath No Fury]

71. 25 for 25.

You've laid out my reservations perfectly.

And I positively cringe when I here the phrase "universal health care." :mad:

[harun]

75. 25 for 25, great list (n/t)

[BringBigDogBack]

78. NICE.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[jgraz]

79. Some excellent points.

[Carolina]

81. I hear ya, totally agree with ALL your reasona

and 26. I can't stand her!

[glowing]

82. You know who I support by the picture.. why in the world can u not

say 25 reasons to vote for Obama? At the end of the day there will be 1 nominee running for President. At this point it looks like Obama or Clinton--perhaps, they will even join together on a ticket. If you put yourself in this mind-set and Obama isn't the Nominee, you may not come out in November.. and at the end of the day the Dem Pres is to represent the voice of the Dem party.. Even if Obama does not get the nod... he will set an amazing amount of policy at the convention. These two don't hate each other.. They are Washington Dems.. Don't let MSM let the VS get so big that you lose sight of the end game.. and that is getting rid on the Repugs.. we will work on the issues within the party with the election of local, state, and federal progressive dems.. We need to push out the DLC.

[Bread and Circus]

83. A good share of my efforts here have been arguing on Obama's behalf and detailing his virtues.

This just isn't one of them.

We still have yet to decide a nominee so it is still fair to debate.

[glowing]

192. this isn't a debate.. this is flame bait and disgusting..

[Bread and Circus]

86. #28 Self- Funds her campaign for $5million before ST but doesn't tell us until after Super Tuesday

I don't usually use this smiley but >>> :puke:

[Dogmudgeon]

88. "And finally, I just don't like her. She rubs me the wrong way."

Sounds like "my mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts."

(3500 msec, wait for it ...)

"Hillary does it, too!"

--p!

[Bread and Circus]

94. Read post #73 my friend... my secrets will be revealed to you.

[Dogmudgeon]

156. I did reply -- it's #153

I tried to keep it less partisan and more analytical. I don't expect you to embrace my point of view, but I hope you will consider it.

--p!

[candice]

100. I have the same gut reaction to Bama that I've had to most Republican

candidates for President. Of course, I hope to be proven wrong. So far, the more I know about him, the less I like him. Ii hope he is a hard worker and a policy wonk and isn't arrogant. He had better show a bit more respect for McCain when he is on the podium with him than he has shown for Hillary.

[johnlal]

89. My two cents

In the weeks leading up to the “Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq” Resolution came up for a vote in 2002, the readers at this site and other progressive websites were warned about Bush’s intentions and flawed war strategy. In the run-up to the vote on the Iraq War, Moveon.org was trying to get people to send petitions to their Congressmen, stating:

Dear Representative,
Without hard evidence that Iraq poses a clear and present danger to the U.S., I urge you to act to prevent a war on Iraq.
(Your personal note)
The Bush White House is aggressively promoting a war on Iraq, against the advice of its diplomats, and without strong support from the American public or our allies. Such a war would likely undermine both national and world security. Many of our young people, and likely many more innocent Iraqis, would die.
As you know, even top Republican leaders are publicly questioning a war. Please critically examine the rationale for a war against Iraq and put the brakes on the Bush White House. You'll have my support if you act to prevent this war.

Senator Clinton voted “yea” on “A joint resolution to authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.” Many of us thought that the Resolution was a bad idea, and we told her so.

On September 26, 2007, she voted to support the Kyl Lieberman Amendment “To express the sense of the Senate regarding Iran” despite the opposition of many in the netroots.

The whole phenomenon of the "netroots" gave voice to people who were tired of the status quo, and who siezed the new media to give voice to their frustrations. The immediate impact of the internet in politics was to act quickly and forcefully to malfeasance in office.
The whole thrust of the midterm election in 2006 was to hold Congress accountable, especially on the issue of War in Iraq.
Now, at the end of Bush's reign, if we see the same progressive websites and blogs calling upon us to support Senator Clinton, I'm afraid that not only will Sen. Clinton come up short, but the progressive web will lose credibility. After all we have invested over the years, we shouldn't be called upon to reward a Senator who has ignored our voice. If, after authorizing war in Iraq and after supporting Kyl Lieberman, the netroots are called upon to elevate Senator Clinton to the highest office, the progressive web loses credibility.

[Yael]

90. Help me remember something here. Which debate was it that she played the FEAR TERRA TERRA FEAR

card?

They are blending into one.

Was it New Hampshire? I am thinking Bill Richardson was in when she did that.

[Laurab]

129. I don't remember, but I do remember Bill doing it.

That was the moment I lost all my respect for a man I had respected for years - it told me that these two would do ANYTHING to win, even use bush tactics. I wish I could help you remember - I do remember she'll "be ready on day 1" and they "test new leaders by attacking", but I don't remember which debate it was.

I honestly wish there was something I could do to change the way I feel about Hillary, but the longer primary season goes on, the worse it gets.

I'm glad I live in a blue state - that's all I can say, because it would be so difficult to vote for someone I dislike so much.

[Norwood]

91. You summed it all up very well

K & R

[sniffa]

92. K&R

Great list, and I agree. :thumbsup:

[DFW]

95. If she's the nominee, I'll support her

Gladly, even. McCain just came out and said he wanted more Supreme Court
Justices like Roberts and Alito. Hell why not just rename the SCOTUS the
Volksgerichtshof and be done with it? Besides the fact that I've met both
HRC and Obama, and neither of them rubbed me the wrong way in the slightest,
supporting anyone other than the Democratic nominee (and don't anyone get on
my case for "blind party loyalty," I'm not saying no one has the right, just
no one should close their eyes to the consequences of their choice once it is
made) is a de facto vote (whether intentional or not) for this:


Keeping that in mind, well, as the fictional René Belloq once said, "do as you will."

[BPJ]

97. Might want to add Hillary's vote against banning cluster bomb use in civilian areas...

http://mediabloodhound.typepad.com/weblog/2008/02/hillary-vs-obam.html#more

Pretty appalling stuff.

[Bread and Circus]

99. That is one I never heard.

[BPJ]

103. Clinton vs. Obama on the Cluster Bomb Vote (correct link!!)

http://mediabloodhound.typepad.com/weblog/2008/02/hillary-vs-obam.html

[Bread and Circus]

104. That proves Item #18

from the article you linked:

"But in the autumn of 2006, there was a chance to take a step in the right direction: Senate Amendment No. 4882, an amendment to a Pentagon appropriations bill that would have banned the use of cluster bombs in civilian areas.

Senator Obama of Illinois voted IN FAVOR of the ban.

Senator Clinton of New York voted AGAINST the ban.

Analysts say Clinton did not want to risk appearing "soft on terror," as it would have harmed her electibility."

Point, set, match....

I'm glad Obama voted in favor of the ban.

[Divernan]

131. Another Clinton vote that causes deaths of civilians, including children

A big talking point for Clinton supporters here on DU is "I support her for all the work she's done for women and children." I don't ever want to hear that crap claim again about someone who voted to support the continued use of cluster bombs in civilian areas. How any human being, how any woman, how any mother could vote in favor of those weapons, which have been condemned by the civilized world - leaves me stunned. It tells me that Senator Clinton has as cold and calculating a heart as I have ever heard of in an American politician.

Contrast her vote with the actions of Princess Diana.
www.guardian.co.uk/society/gallery/2007/jul/31/charities?picture=330302655
When Princess Diana tiptoed through a minefield she created an iconic image and helped secure a ban on the weapons, which had killed and maimed thousands. Now campaigners are working with her memorial charity to press for a ban on landmines’ successors, which are wreaking new devastation. Landmine Action say Diana’s name still opens doors worldwide and they hope her legacy will help them secure a ban on cluster bombs - which are wrecking lives in southern Lebanon a year after the war with Israel ended. Unexploded bombs have killed 249 people since the war ended and have left large swathes of the country a no-go area.

End of quote.
This quote by the way highlights another disturbing aspect of Clinton's vote on clusterbombs - those are the weapons the Israelis used extensively in Lebanon, and Senator Clinton would have appeared critical of Israelis if she had voted to ban these weapons.

[candice]

98. You forgot to add that she's a woman, and you can't image a non-male

sitting in the White House.

[Bread and Circus]

102. I voted for my female Democratic Governor (Granholm) with pride...

you are off base.

[digidigido]

120. No, She's just the Wrong Woman

I want Obama. I prefer him because he's smart, he's articulate and he inspires.
I did not want Jesse Jackson, I thought he was a joke. The biggest thing they
have in common is the color of their skin.
I would vote for Barbar Boxer, she has courage and common sense. I would not
vote for Hilary or Feinstein. The big thing they have in common is their gender

[faithfulcitizen]

214. personally, I think that's a cop out. I want a woman pres, just not at any cost. nt

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

106. Your concerns are mine

only you write better than I do. Thank you for posting this.

[Stephanie]

132. Agreed

That's the best list I've seen. More than enough reasons to send her packing.

[frog92969]

107. Great job...

but you only scratched the surface.

[Baby Snooks]

111. 2 Families?

12.) I oppose Dynasty Politics. They are un-American and the framers of the country wanted to avoid 30 years of rule by 2 families.

Some would say they are one family and that is sufficient reason not to vote for her. But thanks for 24 other ones. In addition to about 240 other ones. I would rather have Mickey Mouse and take a chance whoever they sent up from Disneyland knew what they were doing.

The founding fathers, by the way, didn't set any limitation on how long someone could serve. There was a wisdom in that despite our feeling otherwise at times. Imagine the Senate, for instance, without Ted Kennedy at this point. There might not be any real voice for the people.

[George II]

203. We've had "Mickey Mouse" for the last 8 years, see what it's done for us?

But at least you'd have someone who you can identify with intellectually.

[bpeale]

113. i don't support obama because i don't trust him. period.

[Riverman]

114. I Completely Agree with the entire list and those items added by others

I've written often recently about Hillary and don't need to repeat it all here again! She is a Republican in Drag! My dear sisters and empathetic independent, liberal and progressive folks she is not our friend!

[JKaiser]

118. So what are the negatives about obama?

Well at least we know all about hillary.. I wonder what skeletons are in Obama's closet.. Thank you for the post.. It just amazes how she keeps on rising to the top, when people like you put her down! She is a definite fighter!!:)

[Indenturedebtor]

150. Yes a fighter is what we need!

Or even better than a fighter... a Decider!

:crazy:

[JKaiser]

157. Yep!! GO Hillary!

[skepticscott]

119. So would these concerns

keep you from supporting Hillary Clinton with your vote if she were running against George W. Bush?

[Miss Chybil]

121. I'm glad you got that off your chest.

Next.

[Evergreen Emerald]

122. I was going to address each one, with actual facts rather than respond in kind

to the distortions and lies and twists that you attempt to suggest are "reasons." But, then I noticed on DU that you have been spamming with distortions and lies for a number of posts here on DU.

So, let me just say that this thread, like the others, is a bunch of Bullshit. WRong. Wrong. Wrong. Your excuses for not supporting Clinton are nothing.

[Bread and Circus]

130. My opinions here are subjective. You are welcome to disagree with them.

However, Clinton's disturbing foreign policy pattern is something you cannot deny as detailed with source articles in other posts. Methinks you doth protest too much.

[Uncle Sinister]

124. Thanks for joining my ignore list, B&R, go join the pure and powerless Naderites.

[D23MIURG23]

138. Go Humanize some cabbages you slack-posteur!!

"A hot dog is a type of fully-cooked, cured and/or smoked moist sausage of soft, even, texture and flavor. It is usually placed hot in a soft, sliced bun of approximately the same length as the sausage, and optionally garnished with condiments and toppings."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_dog






:wtf: :grr: :shrug:

[stillrockin]

217. Add my name. I support the 1st amendment.

[riverwalker]

127. Most excellent!

You articulated all my reasons as well.
I would add one more: #26) Her voting against the resolution prohibiting the use of cluster bombs in civilians areas. (Obama voted for it) If she voted against using cluster bombs against children, she would look "soft". (Like that was a BAD thing???)
Obama understands that real strength is not being so freakin' afraid of being "soft".
Bottom line : She has no GUTS.

[bbgrunt]

128. my thoughts exactly. Plus I resent her "leadership" on

pushing for legislation against flag desecration.

[DrZeeLit]

144. Yes x 25. + would she just stop yelling? I can't take it. n/t

[Cant trust em]

146. #10 is the one for me

I can't get past it.

[Blondiegrrl]

148. I agree whole-heartedly

I cannot in good conscience vote for Hillary Clinton, for all of the reasons you listed, but mostly because I think the Clintons are crooked and power-hungry. Not only that -- Hillary Clinton is devisive and polarizing, which is the last thing this country needs at this time.

Yes, I am voting for Barack Obama. Should Clinton get the nomination, in the general election I will either (A) stay home, or (B) write in a candidate.

[Vattel]

152. This list isn't very helpful

to someone like myself who is on the fence. I don't care if you dislike her (25). Disparaging Bill Clinton's economic policies on the grounds that the good economy was a bubble, supported by the tech boom, and didn't last (1 and 24)is the sort of thing Sean Hannity and Rush do. It can't be regarded as a serious assessment of the merits of his economic policies. She says "I" too much (23)? Your joking, right? And you must realize that saying that you oppose political dynasties because they are unamerican (12) is plainly silly. You claim that the founding fathers didn't want 30 years of presidents coming from only two families, but I doubt that you have any idea whether they were opposed to such a thing. Did any of the founding fathers object to the Adams "political dynasty?" Should we care if they did? Without offering any evidence, you claim that her IWR vote was a "cynical ploy" (10). Can you read minds? Your suggestion that she and Bill have many scandals involving quid pro quo crony politics (6) is really outrageous. Charges of corruption against a possible candidate for president should be substantiated. Your first example is Hsu, but there's no evidence of any quid pro quo there, or (to my knowledge) of any wrongdoing at all on the part of Hillary. I would prefer that you substantiate one charge of illegal or unethical behavior on her part than to dip into the Republican list of BS charges. I could go on, but maybe you can see why other pro-Clinton posters didn't take the time to respond to the items on your list.

[Celebration]

171. ethics

I've had strong suspicions about her ethics since this--
You wanted specifics, and you wanted Hillary not Bill. This speaks volumes.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/whitewater/stories/wwtr940527.htm

Hillary Rodham Clinton was allowed to order 10 cattle futures contracts, normally a $12,000 investment, in her first commodity trade in 1978 although she had only $1,000 in her account at the time, according to trade records the White House released yesterday.

The computerized records of her trades, which the White House obtained from the Chicago Mercantile Exchange, show for the first time how she was able to turn her initial investment into $6,300 overnight. In about 10 months of trading, she made nearly $100,000, relying heavily on advice from her friend James B. Blair, an experienced futures trader.

The new records also raise the possibility that some of her profits -- as much as $40,000 – came from larger trades ordered by someone else and then shifted to her account, Leo Melamed, a former chairman of the Merc who reviewed the records for the White House, said in an interview. He said the discrepancies in Clinton's records also could have been caused by human error.

[Vattel]

207. and the wrongdoing here is what?

Thwe post article does not say that Clinton violated any rules. A little further down, the article says:

Even allocated trades would not necessarily have benefited Clinton, Melamed added. "I have no reason to change my original assessment. Mrs. Clinton violated no rules in the course of her transactions," he said.

[Celebration]

209. It can't be proven

so maybe it was brilliant. Let me tell you this--if you think that this was a legitimate business deal, then you have absolutely NO knowledge of the securities/futures business. Legitimate futures trades are not handled this way. Period. However, if the goal was to obfuscate in order to profit, this is exactly how it is done.

[Vattel]

232. One thing is clear

I have absolutely NO knowledge of the securities/futures business. I take it that Melamed does, and that you do. I'm open to an actual argument that she violated the law, but I ain't seen one yet.

[Celebration]

238. go on and vote for her

There is a high burden of proof in a criminal trial. We are talking ethics here, not criminality. I wouldn't vote for her because of my strong belief that her ethics are suspect, not because I think she should be criminally charged with anything. There are a lot of sleazy people that I would not vote for, but I don't think they should be put in jail either.

[cosmik debris]

158. I've got a few more, but I'll settle for yours. K&R

[dailykoff]

163. Don't forget the torture she endorsed

before she changed her mind. She's not just weak, she's completely spineless on the most important issues.

[Bread and Circus]

244. She flip-flopped a wee bit on torture. I won't hold her feet too hard

to the fire for that as there is no pattern of her supporting torture.

However, she does have a long pattern of other hawkish positions and actions.

[dschmott]

167. A+ Post. Great opening and closing comments. Also agree with points 1-25 - rational and articulate

[SmellsLikeDeanSpirit]

169. BUMP! BUMP! BUMP!

Covers a lot of reasons I can't bring myself to support her.

[From The Left]

172. HERE ARE 10 REASONS NOT TO VOTE FOR HILLARY CLINTON

1. Hillary Clinton voted for Bush’s Iraq war

2. Hillary Clinton for Bush’s USA Patriot Act

3. Hillary Clinton voted to reauthorize Bush’s USA Patriot Act

4. Hillary Clinton opposed the international treaty to ban land mines

5. Hillary Clinton is one of the Senate’s most outspoken critics of the United Nations

6. Hillary Clinton voted against the Feinstein-Leahy amendment restricting U.S. exports of cluster bombs to countries that use them against civilian-populated areas

7. Hillary Clinton is one of the most prominent critics of the International Court of Justice for its landmark 2004 advisory ruling that the Fourth Geneva Conventions on the Laws of War is legally binding on all signatory nations

8. Hillary Clinton supported Israel’s massive military assault on the civilian infrastructure of Lebanon and the Gaza Strip which took the lives of over 1,000 civilians, half of whom were children

9. Hillary Clinton opposes the complete repeal of DOMA (the Defense of Marriage Act)

10. Hillary Clinton couldn’t be bothered to read the NIE before casting her pro-Iraq war vote

[DrZeeLit]

225. Great succinct, solid post. WELCOME TO DU!

Somehow to me, voting for Hillary feels like a step backward.
Can't explain that except to say, I don't want to go back into that "old feeling" of constant conspiracy and scandal and crap that detracts from what we MUST do to "fix" the country and reclaim the Constitution.

Your list is GREAT. I knew some of it, but not all.
Thank you.

[liberal N proud]

173. This is a good way to make sure a republicon gets elected in November

Publish your hatred to the world.

[Meshuga]

174. I agree with most of your points

That is why I am not supporting her for the nomination. But if it comes down to being between HRC and McCain, I will vote for HRC. I will vote in November, but not for a third party, not for a Republican. I will vote for her. My ABM feelings or ABR feelings are much stronger than my ABC feelings.

[Perry Logan]

175. So if the Repubs win in 2008, we'll know whom to thank. Meanwhile, here's her excellent record...

(Her husband's record is even more spectacular, by the way.)

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the NARAL Pro-Choice America 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the The Humane Society of the United States 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Trust for Historic Preservation 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People 95 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Education Association 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Wilderness Coalition 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Defenders of Wildlife Action Fund 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the League of Conservation Voters 95 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Children's Defense Fund 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Association of University Women 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Organization for Women 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the U.S. Public Interest Research Group 91 percent in 2006.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the U.S. Public Interest Research Group 100 percent in 2005

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence 100 percent from 1988-2003 (Senate) or 1991-2003 (House).

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Public Health Association 80 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the International Brotherhood of Boilermakers 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Service Employees International Union 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the United Auto Workers 93 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the AFL-CIO 93 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the United Electrical Radio and Machine Workers 84 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Worker 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Federation of State, County & Municipal Employees 88 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Federation of Government Employees 83 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Committee for an Effective Congress 95 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Americans for Democratic Action 100 percent in 2005.

According to the National Journal - Composite Liberal Score's calculations, in 2005, Senator Clinton voted more liberal on economic, defense and foreign policy issues than 80 percent of the Senators.

According to the National Journal - Liberal on Social Policy's calculations, in 2005, Senator Clinton voted more liberal on social policy issues than 83 percent of the Senators.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Alliance for Retired Americans 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Disabled American Veterans 92 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Bread for the World 100 percent in 2003-2004.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the The Partnership for the Homeless 100 percent in 2003-2004.
http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=WNY99268

She was promoting universal coverage before it was cool. Furthermore she helped to create the SCHIP program. And most importantly she was dead on in the debate the other week where she said political will was the most important thing needed to push health care reform through and we know without a doubt she has that.

She has fougt unrelentingly for a woman's right to choose as well as women's rights both domestically and abroad

Create a Strategic Energy Fund - Hillary has proposed a Strategic Energy Fund that would inject $50 billion into research, development and deployment of renewable energy, energy efficiency, clean coal technology, ethanol and other homegrown biofuels. Hillary's proposal would give oil companies a choice: invest in renewable energy or pay into the fund. Hillary's proposal would also eliminate oil company tax breaks and make sure that oil companies pay their fair share for drilling on public lands. Instead of sending billions of dollars to the Middle East for their oil, Hillary's proposal will create a new clean energy industry in America and create tens of thousands of jobs here.

Champion a Market-Based "Cap and Trade" Approach - Hillary supports a market-based, cap and trade approach to reducing carbon emissions and fight global warming. This approach was used successfully to limit sulfur dioxide and reduce levels of acid rain in the 1990s. By capping the amount of emissions in the environment and allowing corporations to buy and sell permits, this approach offers corporations a flexible, cost-efficient method to do their share to reduce emissions and combat global warming. The program will reduce emissions, drive the development of clean technologies, and create a market for projects that store carbon dioxide.

20% Renewable Electricity Standard by 2020 - Hillary believes we need to shift our reliance on high carbon electricity sources to low-carbon electricity sources by investing in renewable energy sources, such as solar and wind. As President, she'll work to require power companies to obtain 20 percent of their energy from renewable sources by 2020.

Make Federal Buildings Carbon Neutral - Hillary believes that the federal government should lead the way in reducing carbon emissions from buildings. Buildings account for 40 percent of U.S. greenhouse gas emissions, and the federal government owns or leases more than 500,000. Hillary would require all federal buildings to steadily increase the use of green design principles, energy efficient technologies, and to generate energy on-site from solar and other renewable sources. By 2030, all new federal buildings and major renovations would be carbon neutral, helping to fight global warming and cutting the $5.6 billion that the federal government spends each year on heating, cooling and lighting.

Protecting Against Exposure to Toxic Chemicals - Hillary wants to make the products we use safer, especially for children. There are tens of thousands of chemicals used in the U.S. and hundreds of new chemicals introduced each year, but little health testing is conducted for many of them. Hillary would require chemical companies to prove that new chemicals are safe before they are put on the market, and would set more stringent exposure standards for kids. She would also create a "priority list" of existing chemicals and require testing to make sure they are safe. To improve our understanding of the links between chemicals and diseases like cancer, Hillary would create an "environmental health tracking network" that ties together information about pollution and chronic diseases.

Hillary's Record

In the White House, Hillary led efforts to make adoption easier, to expand early learning and child care, to increase funding for breast cancer research, and to help veterans suffering from Gulf War syndrome who had too often been ignored in the past. She helped launch a national campaign to prevent teen pregnancy and helped create the Adoption and Safe Families Act of 1997, which moved children from foster care to adoption more quickly and the number of children who have moved out of foster care into adoption has increased dramatically.

She was instrumental in designing and championing the State Children's Health Insurance Program, which has provided millions of children with health insurance. She battled the big drug companies to force them to test their drugs for children and to make sure all kids get the immunizations they need through the Vaccines for Children Program. Immunization rates dramatically improved after the program launched.

Hillary has been a leading member of the Environment and Public Works Committee since she was elected to the Senate. Today, she chairs the Superfund and Environmental Health Subcommittee and in that capacity has promoted legislation to evaluate and protect against the impact of environmental pollutants on people's health and clean up toxic waste.

Global warming and Clean Air
Spoken out forcefully about the need to tackle global warming in hearings, speeches, rallies and on the Senate floor and co-sponsored "cap and trade" legislation.
Worked to reduce air pollution that causes asthma and other respiratory diseases by writing and helping to pass new laws to clean up exhaust from school buses, and other diesel-powered equipment.
Supported legislation to reduce pollution from power plants, including harmful emissions of sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxides, mercury, and carbon dioxide - emissions that contribute to poor air quality, smog, acid rain, global warming, and mercury contamination of fish.
Aggressively fought the Bush Administration's ill-advised attempts to weaken clean air laws.

Improving Water Quality and Protecting Drinking Water
Helped to overturn the Bush Administration's attempt to allow more arsenic in drinking water.
Cosponsored legislation to protect lakes, rivers and coastal waters by fighting the spread of destructive invasive species, such as the zebra mussel.
Helped ot pass new clean water laws, including measures to protect New York City's water supplies and clean up Long Island Sound.

Protecting Public Lands
Fought oil company efforts to pen the Artic Wildlife Refuge in Alask and Pacific and Atlantic coastal waters to drilling.
Cosponsored the Roadless Area Conservation Act, which prohibits road construction and logging in unspoiled, roadless areas of the National Forest System, and voted for additional funding and manpower to combat forest fires in the west.

Reducing Dangerous Chemicals and Cleaning Up Hazardous Waste
Supported legislation to restore the "polluter pays" principle by reinstating a chemical company fee to fund cleanups of highly contaminated "Superfund" waste sites.
Cosponsored the "kids-Safe Chemical Act," which requires chemical companies to provide health and safety before putting new chemicals in consumer products.
Proposed legislation to create an environmental health tracking network to enable us to better understand the impact of environmental hazards on human health and well-being.

Tackling the Toxic Legacy of 9/11
Pushed for health care benefits for first responders, residents and others whose health has been impacted from breathing the toxic dust and smoke in New York City after 9/11.
http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/8/20/134810/677

Hillary Clinton co-founded the Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families, a state-level alliance with the Children's Defense Fund, in 1977. In late 1977, President Jimmy Carter (for whom she had done 1976 campaign coordination work in Indiana) appointed her to the board of directors of the Legal Services Corporation, and she served in that capacity from 1978 through the end of 1981. For much of that time she served as the chair of that board, the first woman to do so. During her time as chair, funding for the Corporation was expanded from $90 million to $300 million, and she successfully battled against President Ronald Reagan's initial attempts to reduce the funding and change the nature of the organization.

Following the November 1978 election of her husband as Governor of Arkansas, Clinton became First Lady of Arkansas in January 1979, her title for a total of twelve years. Bill appointed her chair of the Rural Health Advisory Committee the same year, where she successfully obtained federal funds to expand medical facilities in Arkansas' poorest areas without affecting doctors' fees.

Hillary Clinton chaired the Arkansas Educational Standards Committee from 1982 to 1992, where she sought to bring about reform in the state's court-sanctioned public education system. One of the most important initiatives of the entire Clinton governorship, she fought a prolonged but ultimately successful battle against the Arkansas Education Association to put mandatory teacher testing as well as state standards for curriculum and classroom size in place. She introduced Arkansas' Home Instruction Program for Preschool Youth in 1985, a program that helps parents work with their children in preschool preparedness and literacy.

And a bit of stuff from the White House :

The First Lady worked to investigate reports of an illness that affected veterans of the Gulf War, which became known as the Gulf War syndrome. Together with Attorney General Janet Reno, Clinton helped create the Office on Violence Against Women at the Department of Justice. In 1997, she initiated and shepherded the Adoption and Safe Families Act, which she regarded as her greatest accomplishment as First Lady.

Along with Senator Ted Kennedy, she was the major force behind the State Children's Health Insurance Program in 1997, a federal effort that provided state support for children whose parents were unable to provide them with health coverage.<124> She promoted nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses and encouraged older women to seek a mammogram to detect breast cancer, with coverage provided by Medicare.<125> She successfully sought to increase research funding for prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the National Institutes of Health.<43> The First Lady worked to investigate reports of an illness that affected veterans of the Gulf War, which became known as the Gulf War syndrome.<43> Together with Attorney General Janet Reno, Clinton helped create the Office on Violence Against Women at the Department of Justice.<43> In 1997, she initiated and shepherded the Adoption and Safe Families Act, which she regarded as her greatest accomplishment as First Lady.<43> As First Lady, Clinton hosted numerous White House Conferences, including ones on Child Care (1997),<126> Early Childhood Development and Learning (1997),<127> and Children and Adolescents (2000),<128> and the first-ever White House Conferences on Teenagers (2000)<129> and Philanthropy (1999).<130>

Hillary Clinton traveled to over eighty countries during this time,<131> breaking the mark for most-travelled First Lady held by Pat Nixon.<132> In a September 1995 speech before the Fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing, Clinton argued very forcefully against practices that abused women around the world and in China itself.<133> She was one of the most prominent international figures at the time to speak out against the treatment of Afghan women by the Islamist fundamentalist Taliban that had seized control of Afghanistan.<134><135> She helped create Vital Voices, an international initiative sponsored by the United States to promote the participation of women in the political processes of their countries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton

More:
http://clinton.senate.gov/issues/nationalsecurity/israel/index.cfm
http://clinton.senate.gov/issues/nationalsecurity/darfur

The following are polls from progressive groups, rating Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, on how often they vote for progressive issues. For each group, http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/011142.php

Clinton Vs. Barack Obama (progressivepunch)
Overall Progressive Score: 92% 90%
Aid to Less Advantaged People at Home and Abroad: 98% 97%
Corporate Subsidies 100% N/A
Education, Humanities and the Arts 88% 100%
Environment 92% 100%
Fair Taxation 97% 100%
Family Planning 88% 80%
Government Checks on Corporate Power 95% 97%
Healthcare 98% 94%
Housing 100% 100%
Human Rights & Civil Liberties 82% 77%
Justice for All: Civil and Criminal 94% 91%
Labor Rights 91% 91%
Making Government Work for Everyone, Not Just the Rich or Powerful 94% 90%
War and Peace 80% 86%
easures to protect New York City's water supplies and clean up Long Island Sound.

HILLARY'S EXPERIENCE ON THE WORLD STAGE:

Her historic speech at the UN Fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing in 1995 not only galvanized women around the world, it helped spawn a movement that led to advances politically, legally, economically, and socially for women in many countries over the next decade. Among other initiatives, she spearheaded the Clinton Administration's efforts to combat the global crisis of human trafficking. She persuaded the First Ladies of the Americas to use their collective power to eradicate measles and improve girls' education throughout the western Hemisphere. And she is widely credited with helping women in Kuwait finally win the right to vote.

As First Lady and now as a two-term senator who represents the most ethnically diverse state in the nation and who sits on the Armed Services Committee, Hillary Clinton has become a fixture on international issues over the past 15 years. She has traveled to more than 80 countries, going from barrios to rural villages to meetings with heads of state. She has consulted with dozens of world leaders - Nelson Mandela, King Abdullah, Tony Blair among them -- on matters as diverse as America and NATO's roles in Kosovo, eradicating poverty in the Third World, and the plight of women living under the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Today, she is one of the most influential voices in the world on human rights, democracy, and the promotion of a "new internationalism" in foreign affairs that calls for a balanced use of military force, diplomacy, and social development to strengthen American interests and security globally.

While American First Ladies historically have made great (and often overlooked) contributions to our nation, Hillary Clinton's wide-ranging experience on international issues as First Lady is unprecedented. Indeed, she is the only First Lady to have delivered foreign policy addresses at major gatherings of the United Nations, the World Bank, the Council on Foreign Relations, and the World Economic Forum.

Hillary Clinton has been fighting for the rights of children for special needs for decades. In her first job out of law school working for the Children's Defense Fund, she conducted research that led to Congress passing the Education for All Handicapped Children Act of 1975, the landmark bill mandating that all children with disabilities be educated in the public school system. later, she helped improve the education of children with special needs by working to reauthorize the Individuals with Disabilities in Education Act. In 2005, she sponsored an amendment to increase funding for the act by $4 billion dollars. She also cosponsored the Personal Excellence for Children with Disabilities Act, a bill that promised to help schools recruit and retain new special education teachers, and better prepare general education teachers and staff to work with children with special needs.

Most recently, she has called for greatly expanded funding to the National Institute for Health to investigate treatments for children with disabilities. And she has put forth a comprehensive and detailed plan to help children and families affected by autism, with numerous elements that correspond very closely to what families in the autism community have been demanding for years.

some points on her legal career:

1969 Truehaft, Walker and Bernstein in Oakland, one of the most liberal law firms in the country. They defended the Panthers.
1970 Yale University - city legal services, provided free legal advice for the poor.
1971 Staff attorney, Children's Defense Fund in Cambridge, Massachusetts
1971 Carnegie Council on Children, legal consultant.
1974 Impeachment Inquiry staff in Washington, D.C., advising the House Committee on the Judiciary during the Watergate scandal.
1974 University of Arkansas, Fayetteville School of Law - One of only two female faculty members.
1976 Worked pro bono on child advocacy.
1978 Jimmy Carter appoints Clinton to the board of the Legal Services Corporation.


Education

Wellesley College where she majored in political science.
Yale Law School, where she served on the Board of Editors of the Yale Review of Law and Social Action.

Political Activist Experience

Pragmatic Liberal

Always fascinated by radicalism, she wrote her senior thesis on a great radical organizer of poor people, Saul Alinsky of Chicago. Though when she was offered a job by Alinsky, after she wrote about him, and she turned him down--because she didn't think he was effective enough. She said to her boyfriend at that timebe in politics you have to win. And it didn't look to her like Alinsky was winning enough of his battles. She came to question his methodology and concluded in her thesis that larger government programs and funding were needed, not just community action at the grass roots.

She was the commencement speaker at Wellesley in 1969, chosen by her fellow students--there had never been a student commencement speaker there before. The scheduled speaker was Sen. Edward Brooke of Massachusetts, who Hillary had campaigned for, a Republican, the first black to be a member of the U.S. Senate in a hundred years. In his remarks he was patronizing, Hillary thought. He seemed to defend the Nixon administration's conduct of the war, and didn't mention the wrenching events of 68. When he finished, Hillary got up and extemporaneously excoriated him. As a result of that speech, she was featured in Life magazine as exemplary of this new generation of student leaders. They ran a picture of her in pedal pushers and her Coke-bottle glasses. That article made her well known in the student movement in the U.S.

She monitored the Black Panther trial in New Haven. She monitored the trial to see if there were any abuses of the rights of the Panthers on trial, and helped schedule the monitors. Her reports were turned over to the ACLU.

1971 Senator Walter Mondale's subcommittee on migrant workers, researching migrant problems in housing, sanitation, health and education.

Political Campaign Experience

1964 In high school, volunteered for Republican candidate Barry Goldwater.
1968 New Hampshire, Eugene McCarthy primary challenge to LBJ.
1972 Campaigned in the western states for 1972 Democratic presidential candidate George McGovern
1976 Jimmy Carter Presidential race, served as an Indiana campaign coordinator.

The Clinton Campaigns (Bill Clinton has stated Hillary played pivotal roles in his campaigns)

1974 Bill Clinton's Congressional race (L)
1976 Bill Clinton's Attorney General race (W)
1978 Bill Clinton's Governor's Race (W)
1980 Bill Clinton's Governor's Race (L)
1982 Bill Clinton's Governor's Race (W)
1992 Bill Clinton's Presidential Race (W)
1996 Bill Clinton's Presidential Race (W)
2000 Hillary Clinton's Senate Campaign (W)
2006 Hillary Clinton's Senate Campaign (W)

Legal Experience

1969 Truehaft, Walker and Bernstein in Oakland, one of the most liberal law firms in the country. They defended the Panthers.
1970 Yale University - city legal services, provided free legal advice for the poor.
1971 Staff attorney, Children's Defense Fund in Cambridge, Massachusetts
1971 Carnegie Council on Children, legal consultant.
1974 Impeachment Inquiry staff in Washington, D.C., advising the House Committee on the Judiciary during the Watergate scandal.
1974 University of Arkansas, Fayetteville School of Law - One of only two female faculty members.
1976 Rose Law Firm. In 1979, she became the first woman to be made a full partner.
1976 Worked pro bono on child advocacy.
1978 Jimmy Carter appoints Clinton to the board of the Legal Services Corporation.

She was twice named by the National Law Journal as one of the 100 most influential lawyers in America, in 1988 and in 1991.

First Lady of Arkansas

1979 Chaired the Rural Health Advisory Committee
1979 Introduced the Arkansas' Home Instruction Program for Preschool Youth, a program that helps parents work with their children in preschool preparedness and literacy.
1982 - 1992 Chaired the Arkansas Educational Standards Committee

She was named Arkansas Woman of the Year in 1983 and Arkansas Mother of the Year in 1984.

Clinton had co-founded the Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families in 1977.

Served on the boards of the Arkansas Children's Hospital Legal Services (1988-1992)and the Children's Defense Fund (as chair, 1986-1992)

Corporate board of directors of TCBY (1985-1992),Wal-Mart Stores (1986-1992), and Lafarge (1990-1992)

First Lady of the United States of America

"She's very smart ... people rightly give her credit for having been a participant in the Clinton administration and for doing some heavy lifting on issues." Barack Obama, speaking of Hillary Clinton's White House experience and contradicting Obama supporters - The Daily Show with Jon Stewart 8/22/07



When asked about his wife's role in his administration in August of 2000, President Bill Clinton said "She basically had an unprecedented level of activity in her present position over the last eight years.''

1993 First to bring a serious universal healthcare plan to be considered by the US Congress
1997 Helped develop the Adoption and Safe Families Act of 1997

The First Lady led the effor on the Foster Care Independence bill, to help older, unadopted children transition to adulthood. She also hosted numerous White House conferences that related to children's health, including early childhood development (1997) and school violence (1999). She lent her support to programs ranging from "Prescription for Reading," in which pediatricians provided free books for new mothers to read to their infants as their brains were rapidly developing, to nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses. She also supported an annual drive to encourage older women to seek a mammography to prevent breast cancer, coverage of the cost being provided by Medicare.

Hillary Clinton was the only First Lady to keep an office in the West Wing among those of the president's senior staff. While her familiarity with the intricate political issues and decisions faced by the President, she openly discussed his work with him, yet stated that ultimately she was but one of several individuals he consulted before making a decision. They were known to disagree. Regarding his 1993 passage of welfare reform, the First Lady had reservations about federally supported childcare and Medicaid. When issues that she was working on were under discussion at the morning senior staff meetings, the First Lady often attended. Aides kept her informed of all pending legislation and oftentimes sought her reaction to issues as a way of gauging the President's potential response. Weighing in on his Cabinet appointments and knowing many of the individuals he named, she had working relationships with many of them.

She persuaded Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin to convene a meeting of corporate CEOs for their advice on how companies could be persuaded to adopt better child care measures for working families.

With Attorney General Janet Reno, the First Lady helped to create the Department of Justice's Violence Against Women office. One of her closest Cabinet allies was Secretary of State Madeleine Albright. Following her international trips, Hillary Clinton wrote a report of her observations for Albright. A primary effort they shared was globally advocating gender equity in economics, employment, health care and education.

During her trips to Africa (1997), Asia (1995), South America (1995, 1997) and the Central European former Soviet satellite nations (1997, 1998), Hillary Clinton emphasized "a civil society," of human rights as a road to democracy and capitalism.

The First Lady was also one of the few international figures at the time who spoke out against the treatment of Afghani women by Islamist fundamentalist Taliban that had seized control of Afghanistan.

One of the programs she helped create was Vital Voices, a U.S.-sponsored initiative to promote the participation of international women in their nation's political process. One result of the group's meetings, in Northern Ireland, was drawing together women leaders of various political factions that supported the Good Friday peace agreement that brought peace to that nation long at civil war.

Hillary Clinton was also an active supporter of the United States Agency for International Development (USAID), often awarding its micro-loans to small enterprises begun by women in developing nations that aided the economic growth in their impoverished communities. Certainly one of her more important speeches as First Lady addressing the need for equal rights for women was international in scope and created controversy in the nation where it was made: the September 1995 United Nations Fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing, China.

Senator From New York

After the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, Hillary worked with her colleagues to secure the funds New York needed to recover and rebuild. She fought to provide compensation to the families of the victims, grants for hard-hit small businesses, and health care for front line workers at Ground Zero.

She is the first New Yorker ever to serve on the Senate Armed Services Committee.

She has introduced legislation to tie Congressional salary increases to an increase in the minimum wage.

She helped pass legislation that encouraged investment to create jobs in struggling communities through the Renewal Communities program.

She has championed legislation to bring broadband Internet access to rural America.

She worked to strengthen the Children's Health Insurance Program, which increased coverage for children in low income and working families.

She authored legislation that has been enacted to improve quality and lower the cost of prescription drugs and to protect our food supply from bioterrorism.

She sponsored legislation to increase America's commitment to fighting the global HIV/AIDS crisis.

She's working for expanded use of information technology in the health care system to decrease administrative costs, lower premiums, and reduce medical errors.

She's worked to ensure the safety of prescription drugs for children, with legislation now included in the Best Pharmaceuticals for Children Act, and her legislation to help schools address environmental hazards. She has also proposed expanding access to child care.

She has passed legislation that will bring more qualified teachers into classrooms and more outstanding principals to lead our schools.

Hillary is one of the original cosponsors of the Prevention First Act to increase access to family planning. Her fight with the Bush Administration ensured that Plan B, an emergency contraceptive, will be available to millions of American women and will reduce the need for abortions.

She introduced the Count Every Vote Act of 2005 to ensure better protection of votes and to ensure that every vote is counted.

Senate Armed Services Committee

Subcommittees:

* Airland
* Emerging Threats and Capabilities
* Readiness and Management Support

Senate Committee on Environment & Public Works

Subcommittees:

* Subcommittee on Superfund and Environmental Health (Chair)
* Subcommittee Clean Air and Nuclear Safety
* Subcommittee on Transportation and Infrastructure

Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor & Pensions

Subcommittees:

* Children and Families
* Employment & Workplace Safety

[From The Left]

177. Doesn't Change her War and USA Patriot Act Vote

She can take off her clothes and juggle 12 plates on the step of the Capitol Building but it doesn't change the fact she voted to give Bush the authority to start an illegal war again Iraq and for the creation of the USA Patriot Act.

[golddigger]

179. Thank you Perry Logan, it would have been so much better if

the poster would have wrote 25 things I like about Obama instead of trashing Clinton.
But I guess he couldn't come up with 25 things to post about Obama.

1. Hope
2. Change
3. Unity
4. Yes we can.
5.?
6.?
7.?
8.?
9.?
10.?
11.?
12.?
13.?
14.?
15.?
16.?
17.?
18.?
19.?
20.?
21.?
22.?
23.?
24.?
25.?
Sorry if I missed anything. Oh, and btw I'm a Hillary supporter as you can see by my avatar. But, I will state this, if Obama becomes the "Democratic nominee" he will have my vote in the GE I will not stand for another repuke President, Damn it I will not.

[polmaven]

178. How about 9 reasons to support WHOEVER is the nominee

that can be summed up in 6 letters......SCOTUS!!!!!

During the next president's term there will likely be at least 3 Supreme Court Justices to be appointed.....Do you really want to take the chance that John McCain or Mitt Romney, or, even scarier MIKE HUCKABEE will be the one to appoint them?


:scared:

[golddigger]

180. Yep, that is what scares the shit out of my wife and I...n/t

:scared: :scared:

[islandmkl]

185. where does electable in the GE figure in?

..SCOTUS will be determined by that winner...not a nominee. If all we are doing is arguing among ourselves and tossing BS at each other, what purpose do we think we will achieve. FANS don't win football games, PLAYERS do. In the end, we will (mostly) all support our nominee...but we better start thinking past the primaries and prepare for the big battle. Labeling criticism as 'RW talking points' as a defense of those criticisms is weak at best. The baggage is there, either defend the baggage or present an intelligent argument of the falseness or incorrectness of the stated points.

[golddigger]

189. Are you replying to me? If you are read post #179...n/t

[polmaven]

222. May I point out that the OP

used the words "I don't think I could eversupport Hillary Clinton".(emphasis mine) That suggests to me that the OP will not support her in any case, even if she is the eventual nominee

You are correct...SCOTUS will be determined by the winner of the General Election, and if Democrats ate so filled with animosity as to spitefully refuse to support whomever is our party's nominee, then the winner will most certainly be the Republican.

[fuzzy otter pop]

199. she a garunteed loser in a GE,

support Obama if you
want to have shot at it this time,

(it isn't much of a shot, but at least there is a chance)

plus Obama builds the party in ways that will makes us
dominate for generations

Hillery will lead us to misfortune and failure

and
even if she some how won (so unlikely)

your hoped for supreme court appointee
would be a "moderate" at best

she will
sell out to
the corporate interests

on the
pretext
of Clintonian triangulation

and the future will be included on the bill of sale

[RaleighNCDUer]

245. Correct on the SC appointee --

The only guarantee on that score is that the appointee will support RvW - but venture off into other realms of personal freedom, defense of the constitution, religious liberty and all bets are off.

[johncoby2]

181. Does anyone really give a flip what you think?

[IsItJustMe]

186. You could have rewritten your post title to say, "25 reasons why I want 100 more years of war in

Iraq. Good luck with your stratagy.

[From The Left]

187. 3,950

The number of dead U.S. soldiers who lost their lives in Iraq thanks to U.S. senators like Hillary Clinton who gave Bush the authority to go to war.

I suppose this fact is lost on Hillary's Harpies.

[Richard_C]

188. Hillary

I am a disgruntled libertarian-Republican who plans to vote for the Democrat in November. I would prefer Obama just because he is more likable, not to mention easier on the eyes and ears. However, I will vote for Hillary against McCain.
Suggestions for Democrats: Tell Hillary she can't bellow like Ted Kennedy so she shouldn't try. When she does, she sounds like every man's worst nightmare woman. Hire the acoustics engineer from ZZ Top and let the amplifiers do the heavy lifting. You can still blast your message, but you sound strong and confident rather than shrill and angry.

[Yael]

233. Welcome to DU!

As a woman, that bothers me a lot too. I cringe during the debates every time she starts yelling. It comes across just as you said -- shrill and angry. The impression isn't of a leader, it is someone who is not in control.

I like the way you said it though. In debate threads, I normally just post "shes yelling again". You actually have suggestions. LOL!

I have to wonder if (for the people who this bothers) they are imagining listing to her yell for the next 4 years.

One thing is true and that is that she is incredibly polarizing. It isn't about like/dislike/neutral. Opinions of her are cemented and they seem to be either VERY positive or VERY negative. Not much middle ground.

[Phred42]

190. BEWARE the Circuliar Firing Squad!

Support Obama if he's your guy - but lets do it without shooting ourselves in the foot.

Remember ANY Dem will be better than ANY republican.

[fuzzy otter pop]

195. first off this stuff is only a secret to her supporters,

the republicans and the MSM will rediscover all of this
and
so much more
including travel gate and the Rose law firm over billing scandal

if you think they wont
then
you are just silly

second, i agree that any dem is better
but
is Hillery anything
but

a

Democrat
in
name
only?

people will vote for the real republican
over
the fake republican every time....

[Maineman]

191. Agree, and

I want a president who is very different from (i.e., opposite of) Bush. Hillary has spent a lot of time and effort proving that she is a tough guy. Sounds like Bush to me. Not only did she vote for war, she got in front of cameras to declare her support for making war. I thought it seemed strange at the time. Now I know why.

She uses I rather than we too often. Exactly. She sounds very interested in the power, perhaps not as much as Bush, who is an all-out power freak. I have not heard her say much, if anything, about rolling back the Bush power grab.

I want someone who is honest. Misrepresenting the opponent's comments or positions is a form of lying which is an indication of one's integrity, ethical values, etc.

Bill Clinton got credit for a good economy. I seem to recall that his VP was given the task of finding ways to make government more efficient, very important for achieving a balanced budget. Hmm, that would be Al Gore.

[Iktomiwicasa]

212. "I have not heard her say much, if anything, about rolling back the...

...Bush power grab"


My two beads worth here. Your point is very illustrative of the nature of your political system. Your people and culture in general thrive on power, seek it like no other thing. This is why, IMO, you rarely have any effective leadership. If you think that whoever will be elected, whether D or R after their name, will willingly give up the power acquired by the Patriot Act, you might think again. Not saying this to offend anyone, but it's just the opinion of this indian guy looking in at your ways from the outside.

[Maineman]

228. Too true.

I am hoping Obama is a little different. I think a lot of people are hoping that.
Thanks for your two beads worth.

[RaleighNCDUer]

243. There were a few in the running who might roll back those powers

but no republican will, Hillary won't, and I'm not sure Obama would - I wish he would say something about it. As oposed to Hillary, he is stong on government transparency which gives me some hope he'd trim presidential powers, but it is still an unknown.

Hillary, OTOH, has already issued her first signing statement saying that the rules of the DNC are not the rules of her campaign. She'd just LOVE those new Bush powers - and the Republicans would HATE to see her have them, so they will come out in overwhelming force to defeat her.

[Sivart]

193. economy...

The economy in the 90's was great because of the .com boom. period. A completely new worldwide industry was born, and the US was leading the way. Janitors at Cisco became millionaires. It had absolutely nothing to do with Clinton. On the flip side, the effects of NAFTA, which Clinton did have responsibility for, are a big part of what is crippling us now.

Argue all you want, but this is fact.

[fuzzy otter pop]

194. well put.. recommended highly

these are all great nuggets of truth

people need to listen
and
to
remember

I have hope for Obama
but
he is not perfect either

i am very concerned that we have found a way to lose the GE
and
the complete lack of critical thought on the part of her supporters
both
disturbs and unnerves me

Al Gore, why have you forsaken us?????

[TornadoTN]

196. Reccomended Highly - I am with you and many others as well

After a lot of thought and contemplation, I cannot in good conscience cast my vote for Hillary if she wins the nomination. I will write in a vote for a real Democrat, maybe someone like Edwards. Your list confirms to me that she unelectable in the general and if she does manage to come away with a win in it - there would be little difference between Clinton II or a McCain administration at the end of the day. My time will be spent trying to elect and support progressives and liberals elsewhere.

Maybe I'll change my mind before the time comes but either way, I'm not going to feel good about supporting her or the results we are going to get if she is elected.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

197. 1, 9, 10, 12 - I agree with

too much of a weather-vane politician for me.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

198. Re: #16 - She keeps tauting her work with the Children's Defense Fund

- she only advised them for less than one year before joining a corporate law firm.

[George II]

200. WHO CARES!!!!

Why don't you use your energy to say why you WILL support another candidate? Why waste so much time being totally NEGATIVE????

Damn, tthis is getting ridiculous.

I particularly like #25, now THAT'S a reason...."I just don't like her, she rubs me the wrong way".

You should be posting on Free Republic or Conservativeunderground.

[stillrockin]

218. You are hilarious. Straight out of SNL.

[LynneSin]

205. The one reason I could support Hillary Clinton (if nominated)

SHE'S NOT THE FUCKING REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE

[BlueJac]

206. The is it in a nut shell......

The Clintons did nothing for middle America in their lives. Bill did a nice job supporting Free Trade around the world (the rightwing economic nightmare). We need no more of that shit! Every time I see Hillary it makes me ill!

[DeeDeeNY]

208. Your list contains valid points except for #25

You don't need to personally like the president or want to have a beer with him (or her). And we still need to support whoever is the Dem nominee in November.
But evidently you're not alone --

http://www.newsweek.com/id/107601

[ProfessorPlum]

210. Don't forget the way the Clintons did not follow up on the crimes of Bush I

They totally swept all of the constitutional crimes of Bush I under the rug once they were in office. Does this explain the chummy relationship between Bill and Poppy? I don't know, but it can't hurt.

Look for Hillary to do more of the same if she wins.

Would Obama be better at ferreting out all of the crimes of the current regime? That's an unknown to me, but at least there is a chance he'd be better than her.

[faithfulcitizen]

215. Wow, you articulated many great points. For me, it's #10, 16, 18, & 21.

"...it's her brand of pursuit of power that disenfranchises the powerless in the first place." SO RIGHT ON! What she's doing in FL & MI is the perfect example of this. She'll do ANYTHING to win.

And I'll add a #26 for me, she's so incredibly divisive and abrasive. My goodness, why can't this woman make a point without yelling at people? I'm so sick of her style of in your face politics. Not all "repukes" are evil, many are just seriously misinformed and one-issues voters. What they need is the right leader to real them in. She is not capable of this.

GREAT JOB OP! :thumbsup:

[dchill]

219. "distrust and dislike..."

Excellent post - describes how I feel and demonstrates Repub talking points for the general election.

[karlrschneider]

221. You've convinced me, I'm going with McCain.

:shrug:

[Skittles]

223. rightwing smear tactics really work on you

please feel free to watch FOX NEWS

[kenfrequed]

224. I agree...somewhat

My problem is, as a self-described progressive, Obama really isn't that much better.

Honestly the candidates I was excited about (Read: will go out of my way to talk about and support) are already out of the running. The inevitable Hillary/Obama ticket holds no real interest for me. I guess I will hold my nose and maybe vote for it, but I really don't see it as a good thing for the progressive movement since both of them are endorsed by the damnable DLC.

[we can do it]

227. 25 Reasons You Suck. Take Your Repub Talking Points And Stickum

Yeah another rethug would be better.

[Yael]

234. Actually, as noted up thread,

these are progressive issues with this candidate.

The RW has a different list.

[kernelfarmer]

237. nt

[BPJ]

239. Can you Digg it?

http://www.digg.com/political_opinion

If you want a more informed Democratic electorate, if you want the media to report on the candidates' records rather than on the horse race, hair and clothing choices, think about pushing this story along with more Diggs. And those who are calling this "Hillary hating," take and breath and think about this for a moment. This isn't spin or an attack; it's just part of her record. If we want more substantive campaign coverage from the mainstream media, then crying "Hillary hating" whenever she's shown in poor light as a consequence of the facts is intellectually dishonest. This isn't an endorsement for either candidate, but rather an attempt to have an honest and open debate about whom might be a better president based on their record.