Bill Nelson lost his lawsuit against Dean....on the same civil rights issue Hillary is using now.

[madfloridian]

Last December Judge Robert Hinkle made his ruling in Nelson v Dean. That lawsuit by Bill Nelson to force the DNC to seat Florida's delegates was filed on the issue of violation of civil rights. Nelson lost that suit.

Judge tells Nelson to sue the State of Florida on the civil rights issue, NOT the DNC

Hinkle said the Democratic National Committee has a right to set its schedule for primaries. The national party penalized Florida because it broke party rules by jumping the state's primary date ahead to Jan. 29.

To rule otherwise would be a free-for-all with all 50 states, Hinkle said. He gave the plaintiffs the choice to re-file under the voting rights act against the state of Florida if they choose."

There is also a Supreme Court precedent from 1981.

The 1981 Supreme Court decision for the case Democratic Party of U.S. v. Wisconsin, 450 U.S. 107 clearly states that the Democratic National Committee can make and enforce the rules on the delegate process.

"The State has a substantial interest in the manner in which its elections are conducted, and the National Party has a substantial interest in the manner in which the delegates to its National Convention are selected. But these interests are not incompatible, and to the limited extent they clash in this case, both interests can be preserved. The National Party rules do not forbid Wisconsin to conduct an open primary. But if Wisconsin does open its primary, it cannot require that Wisconsin delegates to the National Party Convention vote there in accordance with the primary results, if to do so would violate Party rules. Since the Wisconsin Supreme Court has declared that the National Party cannot disqualify delegates who are bound to vote in accordance with the results of the Wisconsin open primary, its judgment is reversed.

It is so ordered."

But even all that does not seem to be enough to deter the campaign of Hillary Clinton from deciding to change her view from September...that she would respect the ruling....to saying they will fight it.

The Hillary campaign has spoken out and said they will pursue the Florida delegates, even though the DNC ruled they could not be counted. That campaign said the rules of their campaign differed from those of the DNC. Interestingly enough...they are using the "civil rights" issue. The same issue on which the court ruled in favor of the DNC.

Turning the Florida votes into a civil rights issue.

The rules the party has put in place to choose its nominee are not the rules of the Clinton campaign and, just like the Obama campaign, we are doing what we can under those rules to secure the requisite number of delegates for the nomination. One way to avoid the situation described above is to figure out some way to honor the votes of Michigan and Florida, where there was record turnout. Counting the delegates in Florida and Michigan is a civil rights issue, and a solution needs to be figured out before the convention.

As a result of the fact that Florida absolutely refuses to accept any responsibility for the lopsided vote to more up the primary...115 to 1 in favor..the media in Florida is almost unbearable to read. Florida Democrats won't speak out on what they did, and now Hillary's campaign is using the same old rhetoric.

No wonder the media here can print just any old thing and no one corrects them. Here is an example of what I read yesterday.

I give Howard Dean credit for chutzpah. After playing a vital part in disenfranchising Florida voters, he actually came to the Sunshine State yesterday, asked for money -- and got it.

Attorney John Morgan hosted a relatively intimate event for Dean at the Citrus Club ... intimate in part because Dean hasn't exactly endeared himself to Florida voters. Still, Morgan said he was able to rustle up an impressive $100k for the party. When Morgan mentioned that total, my first response was to utter a word that would apparently make my new CEO proud. (I'll give you a hint: It rhymes with "pulpit.") But Morgan swore he got that much. More on how and from whom in Thursday's column.

As for Dean, Morgan said he had no regrets about how he handled things, claiming it was out of his hands. I'm not sure I'm buying that. I mean, if nothing else, Dean has a pretty big bully pulpit ... and yes, this time, I meant that actual word.
Orlando Sentinel blog

Let me see just how wrong that is. Dean helps the Florida party raise over $100,000 in Central Florida, after which he headed to Miami for a fundraiser for the party. Some of that money stays in Florida.

A Sentinel blogger says how he feels rhymes with "pulpit"...and that is just one blog. That is not conducive to having people understand the truth, and it is not very likely to get the real story out.

That real story was that both Florida parties did it for "relevance."

They did it to be important, to be big shots. Now those of us who have followed this story no longer trust people like Mark Penn, Bill Nelson, and even the state party chairman...even Hillary. They are not telling the truth. They simply are not.

[Coexist]

1. thank you for your tireless lead on this issue

people refuse to be educated, because it doesn't suit their immediate purpose.

[madfloridian]

2. I have on my bullet proof armor.

The bullets just bounce off now.

[madrchsod]

5. oh yes you have some

but they are on my ignore list.. :thumbsup:

[madfloridian]

13. That is the healthiest way.

My ignore list is getting bigger each day.

[ursi]

42. It is a Florida state issue, they put those idiots in office there

[madfloridian]

3. At the time about 4 major papers stood up against Florida's move.

But no one is doing that anymore. Here is an good example from USA Today.

Boot rule-breaking states to the back of the line

Boot rule-breaking states to the back of the line. Our view on picking a president: Boot rule-breaking states to the back of the line. Parties step in to stop primary leapfrog. It’s about time.
Finally, some adult supervision is coming to the process of picking presidential nominees. And not a moment too soon.

Republican and Democratic party officials have stepped in to try to stop states from leapfrogging each other to set earlier and earlier primaries. The states' goal is to enhance their voters' influence by going first, hardly a malevolent motive.

Three others at the link, including the LA Times, Palm Beach Post, and Miami Herald.

[madrchsod]

4. won`t this bankrupt the democratic party in florida?

with this guy and clinton camp pushing this it just makes matters worse.

[madfloridian]

8. The Florida party sent out emails for people to stop giving to the DNC

and that was a terrible thing.

Yes, it does make matters worse. A lot could be healed if the Florida Dems owned up to what they did and made the lies stop.

[K Gardner]

6. This just cannot be repeated enough:

"But even all that does not seem to be enough to deter the campaign of Hillary Clinton from deciding to change her view from September...that she would respect the ruling....to saying they will fight it."

Watching this crap makes me sick that she is allowed to continue running.

[madfloridian]

15. Here is more...Alcee Hastings pleading with Dean.

Hastings to Dean..seat our delegates

Hastings is a chairman of Hillary's party in Florida.

Despite the efforts of many, the country will be watching to see what happens in Florida today. The DNC created a situation in which it has been widely accepted that Florida Republicans count and Florida Democrats do not. I sincerely hope that you will work with me and my Florida colleagues to rectify this by reinstating Florida’s delegates to the national convention sooner rather than later. For me, yesterday is not soon enough.

Shame on Alcee Hastings for that statement. Blaming the DNC.

[City Lights]

7. I look forward to your continued posts on this, madfloridian!

Thanks for keeping us updated on this continuing story. :yourock:

[madfloridian]

9. It has angered me more than anything ever about our party.

Florida Democrats are a breed apart. They always have been. Lawton (Walkin Lawton) Chiles was a good man. I grew up knowing his family. But he was as right wing a Democrat as you could find. That is how things are here. And Bill Nelson now runs things here, and he is NO Lawton Chiles. I am not sure what he is.

[Dr.Phool]

27. He could be an asshole, for starters.

The man has a friendly and talented staff. You'd think some of it would rub off.

[Coexist]

44. a polite person would not say what Bill Nelson is

but he is most "electable" here, because with opponents like Katherine Harris - no one else could ever win.
:eyes:

[madfloridian]

46. I am glad you put the rolling eyes....lol

I got the sarcasm...poor Katherine. Bill was so proud of his victory over her. I don't even remember the percentage. He spent millions and did not do much about helping other campaigns who needed cash. 12 million on hand stuck in my mind.

[madfloridian]

10. Palm Beach Post: Clinton Camp says some rules good, some bad.

Clinton camp: Some party rules good, some bad

While the blogs debate the egalitarian value of pledged vs. super delegates, Clinton’s folks have no qualms with those party rules. “We are going to play under the rules we are given,” Wolfson said.

But almost in the same breath, they admit there are some party rules they’d like to change.

Namely, the Clinton folks want to flip a decision from DNC to ban Florida delegates from the national convention. The state’s 210 delegates were stripped from the primary equation as punishment for the state moving its primary before Feb. 5 in violation of the party’s approved schedule

..."“These are people who despite essentially being told not to participate, they came out in droves and participated,” Wolfson said of Florida Democratic voters. “If you want to talk about democratization then let’s democratize the process in so far as allowing Michigan and Florida to participate in the selection of our nominee.”

SO...that is a new argument I have not heard before...since Florida came out in droves the delegates should count. Nice try, Howard Wolfson.

[Usrename]

22. Edwards and Obama weren't even on the ballot in Michigan.

What kind of person wants to win like that? Is there a name for that kind of person?

[AtomicKitten]

11. I fully expect Clinton to try to sue her way to the title.

Clinton signed on to the DNC plan to NOT seat Michigan and Florida, and I fully expect Dean to enforce that.

K&R

[madfloridian]

12. It will be enforced. She is very wrong to push this.

It is not honest, and it will hurt us all badly.

[xxqqqzme]

14. '...That (Clinton) campaign said the rules of their

campaign differed from those of the DNC....'

Kinda like * signing statements, isn't it? Sort of an imperial attitude, don't you think?

Thank you for keeping us up to date on this issue.

nelson seems to be vying for that zell miller crown.

[Dr.Phool]

28. Zell Nelson?

It fits.

[tammywammy]

16. Thanks for your post

Your tireless work on educating us on this issue is greatly appreciated. :thumbsup:

[truedelphi]

17. The courts are not often about logic or justice.

I have no idea if Bill nelson should or shouldn't have won, legally speaking.

I know how I feel morally, but morals and court decisions are as related as penguins and ducks.

But the thing is, if Clinton has clout to offer, such as a position here or a position there, once she is President, the F'in legalities do not matter. If it's a big enough position offered to one of the judicial decision makers.

Also, here's a thought, something that has always bothered me - I am convinced that if say Jeb Bush had been in the WH in November of 2000, and his brother George was finding that his votes were not being counted in Florida, while Gore had someone close to him in KAtherine Harris' position, Jeb as President would have installed the Naitonal Guard to see that the votes were counted.

Pres. Bill Clinton didn't do that. I never understood why he didn't. And it turns out that because the votes were not all counted, no class action lawsuits and several other types of lawsuits could be filed to force the real count to count in Florida.

So when The New YOrk Times announced that Gore had won on Sept 12th 2001, the fact carried no weight.

Why?

[The Backlash Cometh]

18. I don't see Nelson suing Florida. Do you, MF?

They are manipulative, but this isn't about holding Florida to accept responsibility for its own bad judgment. It's about finding ways to skirt the system, and if they can degrade Dean in the process, more the better. That's how they think.

[madfloridian]

49. No, Nelson won't.

A DNC member, Jon Ausman did. But the judge got the case late and said it would hurt voting to change right before the election.

The Florida Democrats are primed to be sure Hillary wins.

[Orangepeel]

19. courts can't seat the delegates. The credentialing committee can if they choose

Whether they will or not, I have no idea. I guess it depends who they are.

[bookweight]

20. Excerpted from a blog by "Ms Progressive"

The dominatrix known as the Democratic National Committee has punished her supplicants in Michigan and Florida as well. When uncowering Dems in those states refused to respond to the mistress' demands for a "preferred" primary date, she castrated them of their delegates.
(Leaving registered voters in two states, politically impotent!)

So I must ask you all ... Is this a Republic? Or a political rape?

Why would a political committee seek to disenfranchise so many - unless they were trying to ensure that challengers to their agenda will have exhausted their resources, just before America really "weighs in?"

If we succumb to these manipulations, we have become little more than "sheeple!" (Sporting our little flag pins and peace buttons, as we are willingly herded off the edge of a cliff!)






Maybe MadFloridian needs to do a little research, about how LONG and HARD Michigan and Florida have been pushing to change the current primary system that favors the "old school", and about the broken promises made by DNC to the leadership in those states? Promises that were broken BEFORE the legislatures moved to change the state primary date!!!!

[madfloridian]

21. LOL Dominatrix? Welcome to DU...I think.

:rofl:

[1776Forever]

23. Yes - This is so true!!!!! What needs to be said is did Dean & others plan this for Hillary?

1). Hillary was the only name except Kucinich on the MI ballot!!!!!
2). Everyone including me who was to be a delegate was told that our vote would not count.
3). Many people voted absentee and didn't have a chance to hear Obama because he wasn't campaigning here!

So is this really fair???????? What if it was Obama who was the only one on the ballot in MI? Hillary people care? Be honest here! Dean said yesterday on MSNBC that he can't say one way or the other if the votes will count and that there is a committee that will make that decision! What BS!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am so disgusted with Hillary and her campaign on this! I am also upset with Dean and the DNC! If this is the way they think they are going to steal the election there are going to be people that will leave the Dem's behind and maybe that is what we need right now! How about a 3rd party if this happens? I am all for it!

:hide:

[madfloridian]

24. That is a pretty ugly accusation about Dean.

And that is about all I have to say on that. I guess some in our party no longer know what an honest man looks like.

That's a shame.

[1776Forever]

It's a question - Not an accusation. I don't know just seems fishy after what was said yesterday.

Don't you think that the Dem's in Florida weren't told the complete truth about this? I am!:grr:

[madfloridian]

29. After what was said?? After an accusation like that you should be specific.

Link?

[Texas_Kat]

25. Actually the credentials committee HAS the authority and responsibility to make the decision

[1776Forever]

26. Scott Galindez Truthout's Washington, DC Bureau Chief link on this....

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/011408J.shtml

Could Clinton walk off with most of the delegates? While it is possible, Florida probably has it right. It will be the nominee who will have influence over the credentials committee at the convention. So if Michigan's 156 delegates won't affect the outcome, then the eventual nominee will likely tell his/her supporters to seat the delegates. If the race is extremely close, all bets are off.

[Texas_Kat]

33. If you'd ever participated in Democratic Party politics on an organizational level

This would be very obvious to you.

[madfloridian]

30. Remind myself that someone is yanking chains here a lot

today. I mean one even called the DNC a "dominatrix". :wow:

I am going to continue to post facts and truths, but I also know chain-yanking when I see it.

:rofl:

[whistle]

31. Thus, when someone joins a political party in Amerika they forfeit their civil rights?

:shrug: :yoiks:

[madfloridian]

32. Chain-yanking.

:rofl:

[bookweight]

34. Who's yanking whose chain?

Truthfully, Madfloridian, have you researched this issue thoroughly? Are you aware of the promises that were made by the DNC to change the early-voting preference tilt to NH and IA by 2004? And then again, promised change in in 2008? It was only after it became obvious that once again nothing would change that the Michigan Democrats (can't speak for FLA as I'm not a resident there) decided that change would have to be forced. Old School Democrats LIVE in Dean's pocket.

Why the fear of a rotating regional primary system? Why does NH's state law that their primary MUST be first take precedence over the Michigan Legislature voting to hold ours earlier - why does that make Michigan the "unruly" ones? NH moved THEIR Primary up and THEY weren't penalized!!!!!!

What blackmailable info have the NH and IA party leaders GOT on Dean ???

[madfloridian]

36. They did. They added two more states pre-window.

When I get that uh oh feeling...I just say bye.

[madfloridian]

37. Dupe...deleted.

[xxqqqzme]

47. First off Dean was not party chair in '04

And if you had read some of madfloridians earlier posts (or visited the journal) you would have the thorough research in front of you. S you would be asking dumb questions. There WAS change yesterday. As a resident of CA, our primary was so late, we were regarded as little more than an ATM....kerry was in CA once before our primary and the corporate media had already decided who our 'electable' candidate would be before we ever got to vote. I'm sorry Michigan and Florida felt compelled to challenge the DNC but every other state played by the rules. Why are you so special?

[madfloridian]

35. FL and MI delegations will not be seated if the nomination is contested.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1795

That is the truth.

People are coming to DU to cause dissension and divide us. I recognize that. But I have enough stuff written to just keep clarifying.

And lowering my expectations.

[bookweight]

38. I'm not a fly-by-night

come to DU just to divide you. I've been reading at DU for a couple of years - particularly enjoy each Monday's "Top 10 Conservative Idiots" list. I've just never bothered to get an ID and post before.

However, this issue is close to my heart - being a Michigan Democrat, of course. Being one who was DISENFRANCHISED by the DNC this year.

So, you're thinking that NH, and IA, and SC and NV are appropriately representative of Democrats across the country? Seems like I heard "we" were promised a little more substantive change than just adding 2 more nonrepresentative states to the "early privileges" cabal. Do you think that after campaigning in those states year, after year, after year, after year; after watching the voters in NH "decide" our nominee year, after year, after year, after year (are there 48 or 49 Dem voters in NH again? I forget.)......that maybe the issues that are important to OTHER Democrats might deserve some time in the "sun"???

Like, mebbe, the 7.5% unemployment rate in Mich right now? The erosion of Labor rights - i.e, Mich being the next state on the "right to work" movement's list?

What? You don't know anything about those issues? Gee, I wonder why. Maybe it's because the national candidates only focus on issues that are relevant to IOWA AND NEW HAMPSHIRE.

Is the DNC willing to walk away from Labor's political action FUNDS, as well as our VOTES????

[madfloridian]

39. Bye.

.

[bookweight]

41. Ah.

I guess that's one way to "win" a debate.

Refuse to debate.


Bye, now!

And in answer to the question posed by another poster earlier - YES! This democrat is ready to go 3rd party independent.

Clinton, Obama, and Dean will have to get their turncoat party elected without my vote and without my money. Michigan's Labor movement has loyally supported the Democratic agenda for decades - there is no two ways about it, this year was a total slap in the face to all of us.

[NoodleyAppendage]

40. Bill Nelson and his crusade to help the CHEAT Hillary Clinton

Suck it, Nelson. You lost you cheating bastard. Now, go cry back at Clinton Headquarters and tell your mistress that you failed in your mission to CHEAT.

J

[madfloridian]

43. He has been unrelenting in his attacks on the DNC and Dean

When he gives speeches, has town halls...he still goes on attack about them.

Florida is making a big mistake not owning up to what they did.

[madfloridian]

45. Civil rights activists urge Dean to fix it.

They also seem unaware of Bill Nelson's lawsuit about civil rights, which he lost.

It is like a circus here, no one really knows what is going on.

Florida Democrats need to get off their high horses and tell the truth about what they did. They voted 115 to 1 for the early primary and then blamed Dean. They hurt DNC fundraising and tied up phones there for days when it was their doing.

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20080205/NEWS/802050633/-1/newssitemap

"TALLAHASSEE -- The woman who oversaw a federal report alleging voter disenfranchisement during Florida's disputed 2000 presidential election is asking the Democratic Party to settle a fight with Florida and Michigan before the party harms itself.

Mary Frances Berry, who served as U.S. Commission on Civil Rights chairwoman until 2004, is concerned that there will be a "bloody" battle at the August convention over the seating of delegates from the two states that have been punished by the Democratic National Committee.

She and Roger Wilkins, a George Mason University history professor and former Justice Department official involved in the civil rights movement, sent party leader Howard Dean the letter by e-mail Sunday."

What is really odd that is they are so proud of the HAVA.

"The letter also pointed out that the Democratic Party supported the Help America Vote Act and the Voting Rights Act, both of which "helped ease discontent over disenfranchisement" after the 2000 Florida election, which President Bush won by 537 votes after five weeks of recounts."

While they do not urge any one way of fixing it, they should also require responsibility from the Florida Dems.

[joshcryer]

48. Thankfully if we don't have a clear nominee going into the DNC Dean will have a sit down...

...and the nominee will be decided in a nice private back room meeting.

Invalidating all of these insane ideas. Screw FL democratic party.