Prediction: The obession with FL and MI will continue here, rabidly, until the nomination.

[joshcryer]

And people still won't understand Obama and Hillary's position on seating the delegates.

People still won't understand that they don't count toward the nomination.

People still won't understand that Obama is the only candidate that would chose not to seat those delegates (in the unlikely scenario of a 50-60 point spread between the two).

People will just keep posting this same crap over and over again.

Dean is a political genius, his choice to remove those delegates from having a say was brilliant, it is fair beyond belief. No, those states didn't have "campaigns," but that's their punishment for breaking party rules! Any other option, revote, seating them for the nomination, those are wrong, and unfair. If they revote, then they don't learn their lesson. If they're seated for the nomination, then they don't learn their lesson.

Here's how it works. MI and FL delegates go to the DNC, they are not allowed to vote on anything unless they're seated. If they are seated, then they vote, and everyone is happy. Both Obama and Hillary want to seat them (proof here: http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/01/29/618263.aspx ).

THE ONLY SCENARIO WHERE THEY ARE NOT SEATED IS IF THEY CHANGE THE VOTE INTO HILLARY'S FAVOR AND OBAMA CHOSES NOT TO SEAT THEM. THIS WOULD UNDBOUTEDLY LEAD TO A BROKERED CONVENTION.

READ THIS: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4283075&mesg_id=4283075

[madfloridian]

1. Because Hillary won Florida...and now she wants her delegates.

And when I post the same stuff, you say I am not telling the truth.

You are posting the same stuff I post, and then you tell me I am wrong.

:crazy:

[joshcryer]

2. Hillary does not want those votes seated in any way breaking any DNC rules.

This is parroted by Obama supporters endlessly. And the only "evidence" you have supporting your "theory" is one blogger posting non-sense.

[madfloridian]

4. Well, that is just not true.

Some party rules good, some bad

"Even though Clinton agreed to avoid campaigning in Florida because of the state’s unapproved early primary, she and her campaign officials have continued to call for the state’s delegates count at the national convention in Denver.

Clinton won the state with 50 percent of the vote.

“These are people who despite essentially being told not to participate, they came out in droves and participated,” Wolfson said of Florida Democratic voters. “If you want to talk about democratization then let’s democratize the process in so far as allowing Michigan and Florida to participate in the selection of our nominee.”

The strategists refused to say whether Florida Democrats should reverse course and hold a binding caucus, which would let the state’s delegates participate in the convention.

“There are a number of different options that could … ensure compliance and I think that’s not for us, obviously, to say,” Wolfson said. “But I think its critically important that votes count.”

Wolfson speaks for Hillary.

[joshcryer]

7. All the rules are thrown out when they get to the DNC, which is *clearly* the context here.

Don't try to change it.

“If you want to talk about democratization then let’s democratize the process in so far as allowing Michigan and Florida to participate in the selection of our nominee.”

[K Gardner]

10. Thanks for providing the Wolfson quote. I just realized the OP was full of Hill Schpiel when I saw

him declaring that Hillary already HAD the nomination. Almost got suckered there.. again.. by the HRC camp.

[joshcryer]

12. Don't lie, I did not say she "had" the nomination, I was proposing a scenario.

Your insulting tone does exhibit one thing that I've found familiar with Obama supporters, though.

[K Gardner]

3. So.. being "Seated" does not = "Voting for the Nominee" ?? Which is

Hillary trying to do.. have them JUST SEATED, or allowing them to Vote toward the Nomination? Because everything I'm seeing says that she wants them to be seated AND for their delegates to cast votes toward the nominee.

[joshcryer]

5. OK, it's simple, once they are seated they can vote for their candidate.

It is mathematically impossible for Hillary to seat them without already having the nomination. She has to have the majority of delegates, then she can seat them, and she'll just have a few more delegates. She's already got the nomination.

Of course Hillary, if she did not have the majority of votes, but seating them would bring it in her favor, would propose a resolution to seat them, but because it would hurt Obama, he and his delegates would vote to keep them unseated. Understand? Of course Hillary is going to "fight for those delegates."

But there is absolutely no evidence she's going to take it to court or break any DNC rules, which is something that Obama supporters have been parroting here for weeks now. Never did she say that, never did she suggest that. She went to FL to let them know once she got the nomination, or the majority of delegates, she would seat them.

That's all!

[K Gardner]

9. ROFL. I quit reading when I got to "she's already got the nomination". Its QUITE OBVIOUS

now why you are trying to spin this in a positive light for Hillary and trying to convince people she's not doing anything.. untoward.

Maybe you should watch the interview with Wolfson that aired yesterday or read some of Mark Penn's press releases before you continue memeing that Hillary is only doing what's right. Bullshit. She's cheating.

[joshcryer]

11. If she can seat them, yes, she has the nomination.

Anyone who can seat those delegates has the nomination. Not true to those who cannot seat them, because Obama could lose the nomination by doing so, but that is brokered convention territory anyway.

[Oregone]

6. Sad situation....

Obama supporters think they are right about not having them seated.

Hillary's supporters think they are right about the delegates being seated.

Everyone is convienently justifying their position (which favors their chosen candidate) rather than using logic to look at the situation in an unbiased manner.

Sad, and annoying. DU is like a spin machine, except no one on it pays attention to anyone else, and no one changes their mind in such a way that the real world will be impacted. Its either carthesis or an exercise in futility.

[joshcryer]

8. Nah, I'm on the side of truth, both Obama and Hillary want to seat them.

Obama supporters are the ones parroting the unlikely event of them not being seated. They're completely obsessed with it. Half a dozen posts this morning about it!

[madfloridian]

13. Why would Obama want to seat them? He lost Florida.

Hillary needs to stop it.

[joshcryer]

15. Party unity?

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/01/29/618263.aspx

Hillary will undoubtedly draw up a resolution to seat them, even if Obama doesn't, if he doesn't seat them, then that's his own undoing (brokered convention and all that).

[madfloridian]

18. Not if he loses. NO SIR

That is doing politics your way.

[joshcryer]

21. Yes, it's clear he'd disenfranchise those voters.

He's the only one who would.

All other scenarios point to those delegates being seated. Dean, Pelosi, Obama, and Hillary all agree.

[Oregone]

14. Look, its politics to "want" them seated

You don't want to go on the record saying otherwise.

The bottom line is that the only people who want them seated (as the results stand) are Clinton's people, but not in the name of democracy, but rather in the name of winning. On both sides, disenfranchisment and democracy has nothing to do with it. Its all talking points to appeal to the hearts of people who do not understand the situation.

Ignore what candidates are saying, what the vote actually was, etc. Look at the situation as if the primaries have not happened yet, there are no polls on what will happen, and with the knowledge that one state had an incomplete ballot and no one campaigned in the other one, as well as both violated a scheduled and were told they were being punished (prior to the vote). The conditions are not in the favor of democracy. Perhaps a special election, but as things stand, they do not represent the will of the state's constituents.

[joshcryer]

17. You demean a million voters.

Good job.

[Oregone]

20. You demean a million more that stayed home

And thousands that voted uncommitted in MI. Thousands more than never heard the message and policies of the candidates in Florida.

The only way to empower and respect everyone is have a special election to accommadate this situation. If you do not favor that, how can you claim to be a champion and advocate of anyone who was wronged by this situation? The other ways are leaving people out here.

[joshcryer]

22. They broke the rules.

They deserve a little punishment.

[Oregone]

24. The primary schedule sucks

Perhaps what the state parties did will lead to a reform of the entire system down the road, and this could be great in the long run. Unfortunately the DNC called their bluff and they did violate policy in black and white and they KNEW what was going to happen.

The results from an invalid primary will not be honored (it was invalid according to rules). Im just hoping that the DNC and those states can work on having a valid election this year, that everyone will vote in, everyone will respect, all the candidates can campaign in, all the voters can be educated in, and all the running candidates can be voted for in. Anything that isn't equal to this (seated or not), disenfranchises and hurts some amount of voters. Who knows if thatll happen though (probably not). Therefore, its probably going to be lose, lose. So if you are advocating one position, even if the rules are on your side, you are advocating for at least one group of people to be losers. And this isn't a position any of us should be willing be in.

[madfloridian]

16. Here's more begging from her campaign to seat them. It is wrong.

Hastings to Dean..seat our delegates

Hastings is a chairman of Hillary's party in Florida.

Despite the efforts of many, the country will be watching to see what happens in Florida today. The DNC created a situation in which it has been widely accepted that Florida Republicans count and Florida Democrats do not. I sincerely hope that you will work with me and my Florida colleagues to rectify this by reinstating Florida’s delegates to the national convention sooner rather than later. For me, yesterday is not soon enough.

Shame on Alcee Hastings for that statement.

[joshcryer]

19. Hillary isn't doing it. FL democrats have been petitioning the DNC forever.

Lawsuits and all that foldera. I'm sure you could say just becuse he's one of her co-chairs that she's clearly pushing him to do it, but regardless, it's not coming out of her mouth, and clearly this is nothing more than a request.

[madfloridian]

23. Oh, stop it. Alcee is chairman of her campaign here.

Please stop your spinning.

[joshcryer]

25. You're the one who was posting some blog post as fact.

As if Hillary is some evil lawyer who wants to break DNC rules, who wants to take it to court, who wants to be oh so evil over a scenario that is so unlikely to occur that it's just a joke, and if it were to occur would only lead to a brokered convention and a party division the likes never before seen in the history of the party.

This sort of controversey is just what the MSM wants, this sort of controversey is what many Obama supporters want (the disenfranshising of a million plus voters). It's incredibly assinine on every level.

The fact that Obama *and* Hillary want to seat those delegates proves that at least they aren't the ones wanting this bullshit to happen.

[madfloridian]

26. This will be the last I say to you about it.

Even if you agree with me on an issue, you twist it.

I will say this..and I'm done with arguing with you anymore.

IF Hillary wins after seating those delegates, our party will not survive it. She will not be the president of most of us then. Period. Bottom line.

I agree with Simon Rosenberg:

http://www.ndnblog.org/node/1839

"Like many I wish the Democratic Party could have found a way to let the votes of the people of Michigan and Florida be counted. Unfortunately the rules were the rules, all the candidates agreed to them, and - for the most part - have stuck by them.

So what exactly is Hillary doing by going to Florida to declare victory, pushing her way into whatever is the big Republican story tonight? Somehow given the events of the last few weeks this move just feels wrongly timed. Too many questions are being raised about the Clinton's integrity, their willingness to do whatever it takes to win, even sacrificing long held values and beliefs in the process.

Having worked on the New Hampshire primary and in the War Room in 1992 for the Clintons, I was present at the creation of the famous "rapid response" campaign style and fierce fighting spirit of the Clinton era. In the very first meeting of the War Room James Carville warned us "that if you don't like to eat sh-- everyday you shouldn't be in politics." So I understand as well as anyone that this is a tough game, not for the faint of heart.

But there is a line in politics where tough and determined becomes craven and narcissistic, where advocacy becomes spin, and where integrity and principle are lost. I am concerned that this Florida gambit by the Clinton campaign is once again putting two of my political heroes too close - or perhaps over - that line. So that even if they win this incredible battle with Barack Obama they will end up doing so in a way that will make it hard for them to bring the Party back together, and to lead the nation to a new and better day."