If it's Super Delegates, on either side, that decides this thing, I'm done.

[Drunken Irishman]

I will not vote for a Democratic presidential candidate ever again.

If Obama/Clinton win the most states, have the most state delegates, but the other has more super delegates, thus giving them the victory, it will undermine the Democratic voters and I will be done with this party at the national level. Don't get me wrong, I'll still work my ass off for local and state candidates, but on the national level, the Democratic Party could go fuck themselves for all I care.

What's the point of having a primary if we're going to let super delegates decide our nominee for us?

[tekisui]

1. They don't want that to be the case.

They really don't. That is why so many hold back from announcing support. If comes down to the Supers, they would have a brokered convention. At that convention, who knows?

[Drunken Irishman]

5. And a brokered convention should go to the candidate with the most support.

FROM THE PEOPLE.

But it won't.

And that's trash.

If it's a brokered convention, that means the nominee will be decided by backroom deals and the party's big names. I don't like that. Let the people decide, not the party.

[MonkeyFunk]

9. and how do you calculate

the people's will? The most regular delegates? The greatest popular vote?

[Drunken Irishman]

13. Both?

[MonkeyFunk]

22. What if they have different results?

Last night, Obama may have won a couple more delegates than Clinton, but Clinton got over 200,000 more votes nationwide than Obama.

[Drunken Irishman]

23. In the end, it will balance out.

But I'll concede more weight should be on delegate counts over popular vote.

[tekisui]

26. I don't think that's accurate.

I tallied up all the popular votes from last night, and found Obama up by 136,732.

So far, total he's up by 282,837.

The numbers from CNN.com's site.

[MonkeyFunk]

27. I just added 'em up twice

using CNN's numbers. She's ahead by 215k

[tekisui]

29. The numbers are changing, I don't doubt you.

We'll see where they land.

[MonkeyFunk]

30. true

Obama's numbers changed slightly the second time I added 'em - so I did it a third time.

[Tarc]

2. Then you're a idiot, plain and simple

If you entered into this process not knowing the rules of the game, then the fault lies with you. This is how the Democratic primaries have been structured for almost 30 years now, and all candidates knew going into this that it could be a two-stage affair.

[Drunken Irishman]

3. heh

I knew the rules, I DON'T LIKE THOSE RULES and I didn't think those rules would play out. I thought we moved beyond allowing the party's big-wigs to select our candidates DECADES ago.

[Tarc]

8. Yes, "party big-wigs"

:eyes:

These are our Senators, Representatives, Governors, Howard Deans DLC types, and such. Painting it as some sort of secretive Skull & Bones puppet-masters who are compromising the primary process is just plain ludicrous.

[Drunken Irishman]

10. Riiiight.

But you don't deny they'd be picking our candidates, eh?

Exactly my point, thanks for making it.

I don't care if it's Howard Dean or respected Senators, if Obama/Clinton have more state delegates and the popular vote, they should win the nomination.

[Tarc]

21. If you don't like it, then go form your own party

or go be an irrelevant Green or Libertarian. :rofl:

This is like listening to a sports team bitch because they decide they don't like the playoff format once the regular season is over.

[Drunken Irishman]

24. So if I don't like the EC, I should just form my own country, eh?

You make no sense.

[Sulawesi]

4. The concern is that there is no process with those delegates. I agree with the post...

If there is a system of rules in place, and it is followed, then the outcome is the outcome. But if the popular vote, delegate count go one way and the supers clinch it in the other direction, I would feel disenfranchised.

[pampango]

7. I'm assuming (too optomistic?) that these superdelegates will realize that

to hand the nomination to the candidate with fewer elected delegates would cause many people to feel disenfranchised. It certainly would be "legal" (in accordance with the rules) for them to do that, but it could be a disaster politically. The losing candidate may even accept the SDs decision as part of the "two-stage" affair. It is the many everyday Democrats who would have a problem.

[Drunken Irishman]

15. I hope you're right.

[scheming daemons]

11. I agree..... the rules are rules....

....so you Hillary supporters can stop asking for the delegates in FL and MI to count.

After all... your candidate agreed to the rules.


....or are you only interested in the rules that are in your favor?

[Orangepeel]

6. I don't have a problem with elected democrats having a say in who the nominee is

If the elected delegate vote is close, I don't mind if elected democrats put their collective two cents in. I do think they should have a smaller say (they are about 20% of total votes), but I don't mind them having some say.

[Drunken Irishman]

12. I don't mind they have a say, but if they go against the voters, then I do.

If Obama/Clinton win the most state delegates, win the most states and have a higher popular vote and they're turned away from the nomination by super delegates, we have a problem.

[Orangepeel]

18. you don't mind them having a say unless it matters?

:-)

It's actually an improvement from when they picked the nominee without any imput from voters, but I do agree with you that their say is too big. I think it should be more like 10%.

[Drunken Irishman]

25. No, I'm saying their say should not change the results.

If Clinton has 100 more delegates than Obama and Obama has more super delegates, which will put him over the top, Clinton should win the nomination. It's not fair to use the voice of the super delegate over the voice of the voters.

[GreenPartyVoter]

14. So super delegates are the electoral college of the primary?

[Drunken Irishman]

16. Don't get me started on the EC. :)

[UALRBSofL]

33. Drunken Irishman

I feel the same way you do. I haven't thought far enough ahead to consider that possibility but I live in Florida and it will be something for me to consider.

[K Gardner]

17. Tweety was actually talking about this today, saying that it would be like SCOTUS 2000 to the

millions of voters who turned out huge for Obama.. and condescendingly said perhaps Hillary would consider letting Obama be her VP.

Screw that. She doesn't deserve a spot on any national ticket after the stunts she has pulled in desperation to regain power at any cost. And Obama, I hope, would never take a back seat to a Clinton.

[MadHound]

19. This is Hillary's final back up plan for winning

She was hoping that by loading up on cash early, getting the primaries front loaded, she could have a quick knockout by now and coast until the convention. Instead Obama has withstood the rush, and even gone ahead of her, so this is her final ploy to win. She's got twenty years of favors to call in with many of these delegates, much to blackmail them with, and she will win the super-delegate vote. We the people don't matter anymore, it is all about Hillary.

But you won't be alone in abandoning her this fall. Many people will be turned off by these tactics and won't vote for her either, along with the fact that much of the anti-war left won't vote for her, and many independents and conservative Dems will go for McCain.

But she's going to play the super delegate card, it's the only one she has left. It will cost her dearly though.

[Carrieyazel]

20. That's exactly what happened in 1984. Mondale went over Hart with superdelgs

Nobody would have beaten Reagan that year anyway. But Hart could have won a few more states.

[bunnies]

28. Id rather have a one day national primary re-match.

Everybody votes again - 2 names on the ballot. Period. Voters could decide this damn thing once and for all.

[newmajority]

31. If either the superdelegates or the void elections in Michigan & Florida decide this thing

all Hell will break loose. It will be viewed as much of an illegitimate "win" as Florida 2000 or Ohio 2004.

The entire primary system needs to be redone from scratch, and the superdelegate bullshit eliminated completely, along with this frontloaded (corporatist favoring)"get a nominee by February" primary system.

[BringBigDogBack]

32. I agree with you.