So, Florida and Michigan get no delegates?

[Rex_Goodheart]

How does that work? I can't believe that two of our biggest states are going to have no voice in selecting the Dem nominee...

Somebody fill me in.

[newmajority]

1. The state parties (DLC) broke the rules

It sucks for the voters in those states, but they need to vote out the DLC bastards responsible.

[Birthmark]

2. The DNC decided...

...that since politicians broke the rules, that ordinary citizens should be deprived of their votes. Isn't that fair?

[Elspeth]

5. It should be unconstitutional

Any legal remedy for this?

[Birthmark]

6. Apparently not.

I could have understood had they removed FL's and MI's superdelegates. That seems to make some sort of sense, more at least than depriving ordinary voters of their right. The DNC screwed up big time. The Dems will probably lose FL in the General Election as a result.

[kdmorris]

9. Um, it's not in the constitution that states allow people

to choose the delegates.

[Birthmark]

12. And it's not in the Constitution...

...that two parties have the right to limit the choices that appear on the ballot.

[Critters2]

14. If you don't like it, run for a party leadership position. nt

[Birthmark]

17. OTOH, I can simply not vote this time around.

Much more effective and much less time consuming and expensive for me. Everybody's happy...or not.

[DrDan]

26. are you from Florida or Michigan?

I am from Florida and PISSED about this.

I plan on using the GE to cast a vote (read write-in) for my Primary choice.

Screw the state party. Screw the DNC. That is their attitude toward my vote.

[Birthmark]

48. I'm in FL.

And I couldn't agree with you more. Had Edwards been the nominee, I would have voted. He's not. So I'm not going to vote at all this time around.

[DrDan]

55. no - go vote. And write-in Edwards.

I am doing exactly that - as Edwards was also my choice. I shall make my vote known - regardless of who the party decides to nominate.

[Birthmark]

57. I'll give that some consideration. nt

[kdmorris]

93. John Edwards himself would not want you to do that

If that's what you are going to do, you might as well vote for the Republican nominee and get it over with.

[DrDan]

94. bs . . . I will not vote R

that does not even make sense.

and how do you know what JE would want?????

[kdmorris]

96. Anyone who actually supported and worked on John Edwards' campaign

would know that he would not be in favor of taking votes away from the Democratic nominee to allow the Republicans to continue screwing over the poor and middle class.

You had a chance to vote for him in the Primary. Did you?

[DrDan]

98. no did not . . .

if I had that chance, then I would vote for someone else.

But . . . I live in Florida where our votes were once again not counted.

So I will vote Edwards.

[kdmorris]

103. That makes NO sense

You didn't vote for Edwards in the Primary because you "didn't have the chance"? Um, yes, you did.

So, now you are going to vote for him in the General Election. They counted our votes. Our votes just won't go toward choosing delegates to the convention.

[DrDan]

105. sorry it does not make sense to you - it does to me

and that's what matters.

I am not going to support the choice of the party when it is based on a sham of a primary system. I will not vote R - and this is my only other recourse, short of not voting.

[kdmorris]

31. It is certainly your perogative

to disenfranchise yourself.

Go for it. If you aren't going to vote, though, why are your fighting this out on a political board?

[Birthmark]

56. I want the DNC to know why...

...they are going to lose FL (and probably MI) in November. And I want to exercise my right to free speech...or does that clash with party rules, too? Party above all?

[DrDan]

21. are you suggesting you support the disenfranchisement of Democratic voters?

[Critters2]

24. I respect the decisions made by elected party officials.

No one was disenfranchised.

[DrDan]

30. hmmmmm - my vote, as a Democratic resident of Florida does not count

seems like disenfranchisement to me.

[Critters2]

35. What did you do to prevent it? nt

[DrDan]

40. yes - you are so myopically correct

pardon my lack of foresight

[Critters2]

43. There's more to being a Democrat than showing up for primaries

and asking for a ballot.

[DrDan]

46. now wait just a damned minute

You have no idea of of my participation.

Save your sermons.

[Birthmark]

59. Yeah, the amount of smug assumptions...

...that the disenfranchisement supporters are displaying is pretty amazing.

[DrDan]

63. nothing to see here . . . just keep moving please . . .

what's a little disenfranchisement among the party faithful . . .

[Critters2]

65. The party faifthful elected the party leadership who caused this.

Don't like it? Run for a leadership position next time around. Or at least vote in party elections.

[Birthmark]

67. Did you see the other answer I got.

I got a big "tough shit" in answer to the idea that the disabled or poor might not be able to participate much in the party. Nice, eh?

When FL (and probably MI), go to the Repubs in November...guess whose fault it will be? lol

[DrDan]

71. exactly - and who can blame the voters

they are treated with contempt - they are not valued one bit by the party

[Birthmark]

72. Contempt is precisely the word

[DrDan]

73. and it is the same contempt shown by many posters here at DU

we should be content to not have our votes count in the primary

but then make sure we support the party during the GE

[Birthmark]

78. Yup. Evidently, they don't know how people work. nt

[smalll]

80. The audacity of disenfranchisement, as it were.

The fierce urgency to screw voters.

[Birthmark]

82. Oh, that's good! lol nt

[smalll]

87. Thanks!

:)

[DrDan]

32. If your party officials decided to take away the voting rights of women,

would you be supportive?

How about minorities? screw 'em.

You live those Democratic values, don't you.

[Critters2]

38. If the DNC told my party leadership that an action they were contemplating

would result in the loss of women's right to vote, my county chair would get an ear-full. And he knows it. If this threat were out there, and I said nothing, I'd have to live with the consequences.

When you talked to your central committee reps, before this all happened, what did they tell you about their decision?

[DrDan]

51. and how do you know I did not do that.

I expressed my feelings appropriately numerous time. They apparently were not worthy of a return-reply.

So do not lecture me, my friend.

Myself and several million voters were disenfranchised - in my opinion. I am encouraging as many voters as I can to cast their Primary choice during the GE. I am also discouraging contributions to both the state party and the DNC. If they do not want to hear my voice, they are certainly not going to get into my wallet.

[Elspeth]

15. Or that parties should be allowed to disenfranchise voters

That's just awful

[Critters2]

20. Those voters should have been clear with their party leadership

that they wanted the rules followed.

[Birthmark]

29. Yeah, right.

Like most Democrats even heard that the idea was on the table or that there was a problem with it. Get real. Most of us have real lives, where we have to work and take care of the kids and pay the mortgage and figure out what we're gonna do with the extra $20 that we (might) have left. Party subterfuge is way down our list of shit to worry about.

Maybe I should have said, "Sorry, honey, I can't help with your homework. Daddy has to make sure that the State Legislature isn't going to do anything that might piss off the DNC, resulting in Mommy and Daddy's disenfranchisement in the primaries." I'm sure my kid(s) would understand.

[Critters2]

34. It wasn't the state legislature. It was the state party org,

and yes, if you can't be bothered to participate, this is what you get. This is what apathy buys you. Congratulations--you've gotten exactly what you deserve. Next time, maybe you'll show up.

[Birthmark]

49. Yeah?

Wait until November when my apathy delivers FL to the McCain. I'm sure that you'll be just as smug, won't you?

[kdmorris]

39. Oh give me a break

I knew about it WAY before it was announced and I spent some time writing not just to Karen Thurman, but to my State Senator, my State Representative, Congressman Wexler and Senator Bill Nelson.

I made my voice heard, and yes, it was ignored, but it certainly didn't take THAT much time out of my days.

[Birthmark]

50. Well, good for you.

You heard about it, therefore, we all should have heard about it. Brilliant!

[kdmorris]

27. Well, that's true, but if you don't like that, you need to take back the media

You have to try to gain power for yourself. Until you have that kind of power, it's stupid to thumb your nose at people who do.

[Birthmark]

54. Let's see...

...so I have to change the party, take back the media, keep my eye on all the minutiae occurring in the Legislature and the party (National, State, and Local)...and what else?

[Critters2]

13. The Constitution applies to the government, Political parties

are private entities which make their own rules. If you don't like what your state leadership is doing, get active in the party!!

[Birthmark]

19. Why would anyone get involved...

...with a party that disrespects them and disenfranchises them?

[Critters2]

22. You hve it backwards. The party leadership disrespected the

rules of the party, because they didn't think you'd care. Because you're not active in the party.

[Birthmark]

58. So...

...if, for instance, I couldn't be active in the party due to disability or other personal circumstances, then tough shit for me, eh? Interesting POV for a Democrat.

[Critters2]

61. Yep, just like any other organization. nt

[Birthmark]

64. Well...

...I'm sure the disabled, the poor (particularly those working two jobs or more), and others would be just thrilled to no in what low regard they are held by the Democratic Party. I'll tell as many of them as I can so that they may be informed.

Again, when the Republicans take FL and MI, make sure you blame the DNC. They've earned it.

[Critters2]

68. There are active and inactive members in every organization.

The active members make the decisions.

[Birthmark]

74. So...politics is no more important than a stamp club?

Again, interesting point of view. Let me humbly suggest that it's a stupid and untrue POV.

[kdmorris]

28. Um... To remove Karen Thurman from power and put someone in

who does respect the voters? :shrug:

[Birthmark]

62. After they disenfranchised me?

Not a chance. Evidently, the DNC is more concerned with their power than my vote. If they don't want my vote in the primary, they won't get my vote in the GE.

[Critters2]

66. Your state peadership disenfranchised you, to win a pissing contest. nt

[Birthmark]

69. And the DNC pissed back

...all over the ordinary Democrats in FL. But, hey, they showed that state party, eh?

[Critters2]

70. Your party leadership made an agreement and then reneged.

Welcome to the real world.

[Birthmark]

76. McCain wins FL

Welcome to the consequences of YOUR real world.

But at least party discipline will be maintained, eh, fuhrer? lol

[kdmorris]

95. Um, McCain was probably going to win Florida anyway

Unless we do something about the REAL disenfranchisement of the African American voters in Florida, there wasn't much chance the Democrat would win, anyway.

There's no way the misogynist, racist good ol' boys in the Panhandle and Northern Florida will ever vote for a woman or a black person. And unless the votes in South-East Florida are enough to overcome the "southern Alabama" ways there, the Republican is going to win anyway.

How the hell do you think we got here? The Democratic Leadership has been putting up Republicans who switched to Democrats just before the election for the whole last 10 years I've been here. Look at Tim Mahoney... a true liberal could have won Foley's seat, but they got a Republican who switched at the last minute to run, instead.

[themaguffin]

52. Neither the DNC or RNC are mentioned in the Constitution

[kdmorris]

7. States are under no obligation to let "ordinary citizens"

decide who the delegates will be. That is up to the state party, who agreed to one thing and then worked with the Republicans to do something else. Normally, state parties do allow ordinary citizens to choose the delegates, but they are not obligated to have it that way.

[Birthmark]

10. Yeah, that'll bring the voters in!!

Tell the DNC to google "Shooting oneself in the foot." Perhaps they'll avoid such stupid decisions in the future.

Perhaps not. After all, they don't have to "let us" participate at all. We're just ordinary citizens, consumers. We're not gold-plated demigods.

[kdmorris]

25. But the DNC is NOT the one that shot itself in the food

I don't know a whole lot about Michigan, but in Florida, the DNC bent over backwards to try to help us have delegates that count. Our state party chairwoman, Karen Thurman, said "Screw you". What would you have the DNC do? Overlook Florida's (and Michigan's) State Democratic Party thumbing their nose at them? Everyone other state would start jumping forward until we were having the primaries in early 2007.

I take exception to you blaming it on the DNC, instead of where the actual blame belongs... the DINO leadership we have in Florida.

Allowing ANYONE to seat the delegates (had any been chosen) at this point is absolutely abominable. The only choice voters had in Michigan (of the front-runners) is Clinton. Obama and Edwards took their name off the ballot, as Clinton was supposed to. And Clinton now going back and saying she wants to count those delegates really sucks. When this happened, everyone knew it would benefit Clinton.

There's nothing that can be done about it now. Our primaries are already over and pushing to NOW count everything, when there were no real choices for us, is really disingenuous.

[Birthmark]

77. What would I have them do?

I would (as I have previously stated) have them deprive FL (and MI) of their superdelegates. Those superdelegates are much closer to the action and in much, much better position to resolve matters than the ordinary voter. But the DNC decided to take out their angst (over a few a days) on the PEOPLE.

But of course that would have made some sort of sense.

And there IS something that can be done about. Seat the delegates. If they don't, then FL and MI will go to the Repubs in November.

We, the People, can piss, too.

[Critters2]

85. And you care so little about the well-being of the country, that you'd

help a Repug get elected to spite your party's leadership? Yeah, that's a true Democrat :eyes:

[Birthmark]

88. Neat trick.

I'm afraid you can't redefine the problem away. FL is going to McCain and it's the DNC's fault for abusing the People. Appealing to fear is a last ditch effort to turn the tables. It fails. If the DNC cared about the country's well-being, they wouldn't have abused the voters that they desperately need.

[kdmorris]

91. Seat the delegates?

After the unfairness of the primary, you just want them to go ahead and seat the delegates, even though Michigan got no choice and half our of Florida only knew who Clinton was? Yeah, they should also remove the Super Delegates. And the DNC didn't have "angst" (nice word, by the way, to minimize how much the DNC tried to do to stop this from happening.

"If they don't, then FL and MI will go to the Repubs in November." Why? Because you figure all Democrats in Florida are as narrow-minded as you and will refuse to vote because they are mad? I'LL be doing my part to stop that from happening. How about you? Are YOU going to do your part to stop Florida from "going Republican" (which it WAS in 2004, if you remember correctly). Or are you just going to hang around an online board and pout?

Guess it's too hard to explain to the kids why you have to take so much time out of your schedule to do something like vote?

[Critters2]

8. I assume those voters belong to and are active in the party.

Else, why are they voting Dem? As members of the party, they elected their state party leadership, and are ultimately responsible for the decisions of that leadership.

It's called democracy.

[Birthmark]

16. So...

...depriving people of the right to participate is "democracy?" I donot think that word means what you think it means. </Inigo Montoya>

[Critters2]

18. Those people had the right to participate in the party.

These are party decisions. If you don't like it, run for a party leadership position. Or at least let your central committee rep know how you feel. But, i'd be willing to guess you don't know who that is.

You will have the right to participate in November. Everything before then is the party's business.

[Birthmark]

79. Yer talkin' outcher backside.

There are examples on this thread of people that did just what you recommend wrt letting their dissatisfaction be known. They are still disenfranchised.

I guess FL goes Repub in November. You can hold it against the rabble. We suck for not dedicating every waking moment to the Party and neglecting all other obligations. We just don't love Big Brother enough, I guess. lol

[Critters2]

83. Your representatives did this. Vote 'em out.

And ask yourself how they got voted in in the first place. There are always unscrupulous politicians looking to gain power, and the only safeguard against them is participation by those who favor real democracy. Again, this is what political apathy does. You've learned an important lesson. But it's time to stop whining and do something about it!!

[Birthmark]

86. What I've learned...

...is that the DNC is more concerned with it's own sway than with the average voter. That IS an important lesson, and surprising. I'll will act in accordance with that lesson by assuring that the DNC leadership never does anything like this again. I will do my bit to deprive the DNC of FL's Electoral Votes in November. Then we'll see if THEY learn anything.

[Critters2]

89. When you were a kid, did you often get your way by holding your breath

until you turned blue? Look, your state party screwed you. Bitch at them.

[Birthmark]

90. No.

When you were a kid and didn't get your way, did you beat the hell out of your siblings?

Your leadership screwed you out of FL and the people of FL out of their input in the nominating process. Bitch at them...before it's too late.

[Critters2]

99. Not my leadership. I'm in Illinois. My party played by the rules.

We voted yesterday, and our delegates will be seated.

[Birthmark]

104. And your Electoral Votes will go down the toilet.

Shoulda respected FL. I have a hunch you're gonna miss those EVs. But you can console yourself that the party rules were upheld. You sure showed us!! lol

[Kittycat]

102. Be honest... The State Officials REFUSED to change the date.

They called the DNCs bluff, and got slapped. They've been offered caucuses at least twice now, and refused the first time - not sure where it stands now.

[caligirl]

3. These states had agreed to the primary rules months earlier they helped

formulate them. As some states, using those rules moved their primaries up, these two got a bit of buyers remorse and tried to move ahead of them in setting the dates of their primary. bottom line is they reneged on the agreement to rules they helped formulate and new the consequences would be the loss of delegates and did it anyway.

[thoughtcrime1984]

23. And this is the correct answer

And the votes that were made under the premise that the delegates were not to count should never be distributed per the vote. The only thing I could see is seating half of them for O and half for H. The results would have been different with campaigning and the knowledge that the delegates would count, which would have improved turnout. Any attempt to seat the delegates per the vote would be akin to changing the rules of the game right in the middle of the game.

[kdmorris]

33. Exactly! n/t

[Birthmark]

81. Of course.

There's always a "reason" for disenfranchisement. Always. And for the powerful, it is usually because the people being disenfranchised "deserved" it. I've seen this act before. I just didn't expect it out of the Democratic Party.

Live and learn. I'll live and the DNC will learn...in November, when it counts.

ALL HAIL THE RULES!!!

[caligirl]

101. The anger needs to be directed to the state organizations, we do have

to have some structure and respect for that. its better for the party in the long term. Arguing the problem is with the DNC is misdirected anger. Undercutting the organization was the states doing they should be blamed, they had the information and defied the DNC anyway.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

92. BINGO

[kdmorris]

4. This decision was made last year

It was talked about for weeks. Where have you been?

We already had no voice in selecting the delegates. There is NOTHING anyone can do to fix that.

[Warren DeMontague]

11. They broke the rules.

What's the point of having rules, if states that want to can go ahead and break 'em?

We'll end up with primaries 2 years before the election.

[ShortnFiery]

44. Us silly "little people" don't realize that THE RULES don't apply to "a Bush" OR "a Clinton"

:grr:

Both "the Clinton" and "the Bush" cronies do NOT have to follow the law.

These two (organized?) "political families" are ABOVE THE STINKING RULES.

Their, at times, obnoxious supporters along with their entrenched *POLITICAL SPIN-MACHINES* will make it so! :evilgrin:

Connect the dots fellow Americans?

[DrFunkenstein]

36. Pottery Barn Rule

You break it, you own it. For someone to try to retroactively gain delegates after campaigning under the radar is not only cheap, it is pathetic.

[madfloridian]

37. Folks....we are getting our chains yanked today.

Keep an eye out for repeated questions, repeated allegations.

[sniffa]

41. Typical

At least there's not too much of the, "serious question, is Barack Hussein Obama a Muslim?"

[kdmorris]

42. Good point

I've been traveling on business for a week, just got home at 9 AM this morning and I'm exhausted.

I'm going to take a shower now... you're right... sometimes I just need a little reminder that I shouldn't let my button get pushed.

[smalll]

45. I have a question too: (two actually) - 1) How many delegates would FL and MI have if seated?

And 2) What are the breakdowns within those states for how many delegates Hillary would have from each of them? (And how many Obama would have in Florida, I know he couldn't get any in MI (not on the ballot.))

[ShortnFiery]

53. THE FACT that all "write-in" votes for HRC's opponents were placed in the "non committed" category

PROVES that "to seat" any of these delegates is NOT DEMOCRATIC.

The CLINTONS also have to follow THE RULES. Dammit if we have to "give them a pass" because they have an mighty SPIN machine and some of their followers think that ever damn thing they do is golden. :grr:

How "Nixonian" of "the rules don't apply to us" Clinton Royalty seekers. :thumbsdown:

[smalll]

75. Your first point I think only applied to Michigan, in Florida (bigger state) Obama was on ballot.

As to your second point (Nixonian scoffing at rules) - that IS a heavy point. But those who want them seated can play the Disenfranchisement Card, which in it's Floridian suit, counts as a trump card!

[RockyTorres]

107. But Obama got trashed in Florida and

there is no way that those delegates are going to go to the wayside

[NoBorders]

47. If they had a problem with it they should have spoken up

Before the freakin primary!

[DrDan]

60. WE DID!!!!!!

no one is listening to the voters. They are too busy power-grabbing to be concerned about us.

[Birthmark]

84. It's your own fault...

...that your vote doesn't count. Isn't that *always* what the oppressor says.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

97. that's what the rules that they brokered say

[demo dutch]

100. REX! LATEST----Dean Favors 'Arrangement' Between Candidates Over Brokered Convention!!!!

In an interview taped yesterday for Inside City Hall, Howard Dean expressed opposition to a brokered convention if the Democratic primary contests fail to produce a candidate with enough delegates to win the nomination.

Dean said he thinks there will be a nominee by March or April, and if not, "we're going to have to get the candidates together and make some kind of an arrangement."

Here's the transcript from NY1:

"The idea that we can afford to have a big fight at the convention and then win the race in the next eight weeks, I think, is not a good scenario. So, after the primaries are over, the last primary is June 8th in Puerto Rico, there may be another state with there, and after that if we don't have a nominee, I think we will have a nominee sometime in the middle of March or April. But if we don't, then we're going to have to get the candidates together and make some kind of an arrangement. Because I don't think we can afford to have a brokered convention -- that would not be good news for either party."

[still_one]

109. The only way he can avoid that, is to have MI and Florida rerun the election

with all candidates on the ballot

[writes3000]

110. Wow!! The Implications of this are HUGE!

I just saw a Dem commentator on Fox News say the Dem race is settled. "It will be Clinton/Obama or Obama/Clinton. They just don't know it yet."

[RockyTorres]

106. AT THE END OF THE DAY THOSE DELEGATES WILL GET TO VOTE!

[still_one]

108. The only way THEY will get to vote is if they rerun the primary

and the only way that will happen is if all parties agree

If they count those delegates, without re-doing the primary, we will lose the general election, because the supporters of those candidates who obeyed the DNC rules will not vote for Hillary

However, if they redo the primaries in those states, with every candidate on the ballots, there will be no problem

though Edward's supporters will definitely get the short end of that deal