Cult sure club

[lwcon]

META WARNING: This is a thread about a thread. If that seems like a waste of time to you, fair enough. There's lots of other reading to be had at DU.

I posted the original thread to take the temperature here, and here's what I found....


Yesterday morning, I wrote a post that asked anyone who agreed there was a cultish element in the Obama campaign to K&R the thread.

I wrote it in the wake of dozens of "no cult here" posts (some snarky, some indignant) which, among other things, conflated Obama's flavor-of-the-month awesomeness with the accomplishments of Martin Luther King, Jr.

As I noted, the denial posts and the ensuing commentary routinely characterized those who smelled the whiff of cultism as GOP stooges and/or corrupt, racist Hitlery minions funded and programmed by the monolithic Clinton machine (so monolothic, it's running out of cash and is no match for Obama's celebrity and politico endorsements).

I concluded the initial post with a Sensible Obama Voter prophylactic (which was routinely ignored by respondents):

People who haven't lost their heads and have come to a reasoned decision to support Obama, this is not about you. The two candidates are awfully similar on policy, and unlike Michelle Obama, I have committed to supporting whichever one wins the nomination. But look at the guy next to you at the campaign rally. He's a little glazy-eyed.

In the 24-hour voting window, 147 users clicked "Recommend" to register their concern about the growing cultism around Obama, making it the highest-rated post on DU.

Ya think that maybe this a real problem? Could people who worry about it possibly be granted the same respect for their opinions that people who choose Obama on the merits deserve and usually get?

Apparently not, since this is what I learned from the Unity crowd:

• Obama Criticism = Hate (too many examples to link)
• Obama Critics = Racists and "Hillary's Harpies!" (post deleted by mods, but here was my reply)
• Correntewire (where I blog) = "a bullshit site which is prone to making unsupportable statements by taking quotes out of context. A leftie Drudge, if you will." (Mind you this was verified by the commenter's rigorous five-minute study, so that's pretty much ironclad.)
  

My goal, as I've explained before, is to help Obama to run a better campaign. There is a 50% chance that he's the Democrat I'm voting for in November, and I don't want it to be a vote I regret.

A number of the K&Rers responded with sobering examples of cultism and some useful article links. And the deniers just denied and spat, saying that that the likes of me hate hope, charisma, and winning elections. I was accused of having ulterior motives, being a mimicker of a media-created meme, and doing Karl Rove's bidding. And, for good measure, I was called an "asshole."

I've never felt so hopeful for change in my whole life, let me tell you.

As the thread wrapped up, I concluded...

One of the disturbing qualities of much of the pro-Obama rhetoric is the unyielding sense that the end justifies the means. Dredge up old Clinton hate and call her unelectable? No problem. Call her and her husband racists? Hey, if it gets us those precious vague promises of "hope," "change," and "unity," yes we can and will!

Likewise, every time he throws progressives under the bus and pisses away our real opportunity to shape the debate, it's always rationalized, and besides, he's doing pretty well in the campaign and will excite those all-fired important Indie and reformable Republican voters, so it's all good. It's not like we've won any elections recently. Well, except the last one. And we're kicking the GOP's butt in the court of public opinion. But whatever.

Well, it isn't all good. That's what we're saying.

Turn a smart, talented man into a demi-God, and nothing good will come out of it. At least that's how some of us see it.

How about you, if you were part of the thread, what did you learn (aside from my being a Rovian, hope-hating, charisma-resenting, party-destroying asshole — that stuff is just too obvious).

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[Sapphocrat]

1. I learned...

...that it took a thread like yours to let -- if not the Silent Majority on DU -- a significant Silent Percentage of DUers know that they're hardly alone in their distinct feeling of un-ease about the "Gimme some of that!" GOBAMA-Rama.

I learned that a blog site that was greeted with open arms in the past is now considered idiotic propaganda (the way I learned this past week that TIME isn't worth the paper it's printed on, either).

I learned to stop worrying and love the Ignore feature.

I didn't learn that I'll automatically be branded a racist for any criticism of Obama -- 'cause I already learned that from many other threads.

[lwcon]

3. Thank you

Yeah, some of those lessons were re-learning.

It's pretty clear that our concerns are going to be drowned out, and unless the media's increasing focus on this issue makes someone in the Obama camp wise up about it, there's a real chance we're going to be voting for someone in November who is surrounded by a bubble of unreality and presumed infallibility, which simply can't be good.

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[DemBones DemBones]

18. I realized several weeks ago that

DU is not what it used to be. There's been a massive influx of new people, which always happens during primaries, but these people are really into playing the race card whenever Obama is criticized.

Is anybody calling anti-Clinton posters woman-haters? If not, why not? It must be sexism, it couldn't be that some people don't like her positions on the issues, if we go by the logic that anybody who doesn't swoon over Obama's positions on the issues is a racist.

How about we be logical? Sexism is as important an issue as racism is.

:kick:

Shirley Chisholm, a black member of Congress, ran for president in 1968. She later said that in her life, she had faced more discrimination as a woman than as a black.

[NMMNG]

2. .....

Apparently not, since this is what I learned from the Unity crowd:

* Obama Criticism = Hate (too many examples to link)
* Obama Critics = Racists and "Hillary's Harpies!"

I've learned much the same thing from the first day I began criticizing Obama and/or anything he said or did. It seems that because Obama is black it's automatically racism to criticize him. And even before HRC was the last opponent standing you had to be a "Hillbot" because anybody who didn't like Obama was automatically for her.

Correntewire (where I blog) = "a bullshit site which is prone to making unsupportable statements by taking quotes out of context. A leftie Drudge, if you will." (Mind you this was verified by the commenter's rigorous five-minute study, so that's pretty much ironclad.)

I'm learning that the sites I blog for, as well as any sites that are critical of St. Obama, are utter shit/RW swill/not worthy in some other way. It appears that to be acceptable progressive material these days you must be Pro-Obama.

Yesterday morning, I wrote a post that asked anyone who agreed there was a cultish element in the Obama campaign to K&R the thread.

.....


In the 24-hour voting window, 147 users clicked "Recommend" to register their concern about the growing cultism around Obama, making it the highest-rated post on DU.

A number of us have posted articles from news sources, Blog posts and detailed responses to DUer's own threads/posts here explaining why we believe the "cult" notion. It's not a sacrificing babies in the woods under a full moon or selling their homes and moving to a compound thing. If they'd read the posts and try to comprehend them rather than just reacting to the word "cult" we might get somewhere. But they prefer to stick their fingers in their ears and counterattack.

My goal, as I've explained before, is to help Obama to run a better campaign. There is a 50% chance that he's the Democrat I'm voting for in November, and I don't want it to be a vote I regret.

I don't know if I'd buy that. Put me down as skeptical on that point.

[lwcon]

4. I agree all around, except...

I'm not sure about your last comment. Are you doubting my sincerity about wanting Obama to clean up his act?

I absolutely do, though my optimism about that happening is dwindling by the day.

He's got a lot of upside -- he's charismatic, smart, has a cool story. A lot to like. But he keeps dogwhistling conservative tunes and is cultivating an unhealthy cult of personality. If he'd clean up his act, I'd be happy to support someone of his talents. Why not?

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[NMMNG]

6. Maybe it was just the way you worded it

Concern for Obama's campaign? Nah. I myself would be thrilled if he'd clean up his act but I just don't see it happening. Just read Lavender Newswire to see how far down he's gone (from our perspective and that of our sources). I don't think he could turn around that much, particularly before November.

[lwcon]

8. I'm certainly not betting on it

But "hope" is in. Just like it was in 1992. But really good hope this time, I assure you.

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[11 Bravo]

5. I didn't learn a damned thing.

I already knew that you are one of the more gifted wordsmiths to grace DU. Even when I disagree with you, I enjoy your posts because they are reasoned, well-written, and lacking the frothing "YOUR CANDIDATE SUCKS" vitriol of many who post here. Please stick around.

[lwcon]

7. I appreciate that very much! Thanks n/t

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[Blue_In_AK]

9. Bravo, lwcon!

I appreciated your original thread, and this one, as well. As I've said before here, it's our responsibility as citizens to scrutinize our Democratic candidates with the same skepticism and to the same degree as we do our opponents'. The motivations of all politicians -- Democrats, Republicans, Greens, whatever -- should be questioned and examined thoroughly and never taken at face value. We ridicule Bush's 30 percenters; it's dangerous for us to indulge in the same sort of fingers-in-the-ears, la-la-la, kind of loyalty.

None of the eight Democratic candidates that we started out with was perfect. I personally preferred some of the others to Obama and Clinton, but we are left with these two, one of whom could very well be our next president. Whoever finally wins in November will face the monumental task of attempting to undo the damage that has been done in the past eight years, and it won't be easy. I feel certain that we WILL be disappointed, all of us, when the process of correction stalls, as it inevitably will. It seems that some, but not all, Obama supporters are placing a faith in him that no human being could possibly live up to. Remember, the higher the expectations, the deeper the hurt when those expectations aren't met.

This is a campaign, and candidates say all kinds of things about what they are going to do, or what "we" are going to do, but in the end, we really don't have a crystal ball.

[AtomicKitten]

10. Enthusiastic support for a candidate during an election is not cultism.

Your assertion otherwise, regardless of who nicely written it is, is nothing more than a thinly veiled form of disrespect and an insidious attempt to marginalize the support of the candidate.

There is nothing wrong, in fact there is everything right about a candidate that engages and challenges the American people.

[lwcon]

11. "There is nothing wrong"

A lot of DU members, dedicated Democrats, spoke up to say that they think there is something wrong. More and more of the media is beginning to notice this cultishness, too, and -- like us -- they want to feel good about Obama.

If you care to know, look around the numerous examples in the other thread. Denial is not going to turn this around.

And please tell me, in what way does Obama challenge the American people. I'd really like to know.

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[AtomicKitten]

19. the fact that you "don't feel good" is your goal post

Either vote for the guy or don't, but spare us this poorly veiled concern nonsense.

[lwcon]

22. Still waiting to hear how Obama challenges us

I suppose answering that is quite a challenge.

What is he going to change?

How is our hope going to be rewarded?

Is pledging unity with the ruthless, corrupt, authoritarian Republican Party some sort of challenge? A challenge to see if we can survive further accommodation of their agenda?

What's so transformative about him? Yes, if he won he'd break the color bar, that's good, and so would be breaking the gender bar. Is that all the transformation we're talking about? And yes, he's rallied some youth voters, and that's good too, but not so good if they'll cry foul and not turn out in November if they don't get their cult hero, as so many have threatened.

Like the old saying goes, where's the beef? (And do me a favor and spare me the link to some 60-page, never-gonna-be-enacted/not-much-different-from-anybody-else's position paper on his website)

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[AtomicKitten]

31. Why bother? You've already made up your mind.

However, neatly sweeping Obama's support in a pile and calling it a cult speaks to the weakness of your argument. You either have no clue about his curriculum vitae and platform or are purposely representing and mischaracterizing; either way your effort is as pedestrian as every other weak, manipulative, and transparant effort to disparage Obama's candidacy here at DU.

[Big Blue Marble]

20. This cult accusation is not the problem you are making it out to be.

I am very highly disturbed by your not so subtle insinuations. Every candidate has emotionally charged supporters who
are over the top with enthusiasm. When a candidate draws enthusiastic young people, they are often idealistic
and charged with energy for their candidate. That is the nature of political moments. To claim that somehow
a cult has risen around Obama seems rife with paranoia until it is understood that you are not sharing your concern
with either neutrality or objectivity.

Your faux concern for the Obama campaign is disingenuous as well. I carefully read your earlier thread that you reference here.
Your Clinton bias is tres apparent, transparently so. You come to your claims with quite an agenda behind you.
And I might add that your tone of elitism in both this thread and the linked one is suffocating.

First you never clearly define exactly what you mean by a cult nor how in fact it is organized. No this is a whisper campaign full of innuendo.
Your evidence for your oh so serious accusation is " sobering examples of cultism and some useful article links." provided
by mostly Hillary and Edwards supporters. These are not objective opinions gleaned from impartial samples. If you
are seriously concerned, I think you can do better than that.

What exactly is the fear that has you so distraught as to construct multiple threads and then threads on threads?
Obama is a serious national candidate. He has won 19 primaries. Currently leads in the popular vote total with
nearly 8 millions votes. And leads in delegates. He has the endorsement of nearly 100 newspapers. He has the endorsement
of multiple governors, senators, house members, and mayors.

These are serious charges that you are making. Charges that you are backing up with ridiculously flimsy evidence at the
same time you are drawing the conclusion that the party and perhaps our very country is at risk from this phenomenon.

[lwcon]

25. In response

I'm not insinuating anything. Am I not being clear? I find that in some ways, among some people, support for Obama is taking on a cult-like uncriticality and idolatry?

I'm observing a phenomenon that numerous other DUers have noticed and which the mainstream media is beginning to note as well. If I get the time next week, I'll dedicate myself to providing more extensive documentation of the phenomenon, but there are quite a few substantive examples of Obama fanbase cultishness, and encouragement of it by the candidate himself, noted in the other thread.

In what sense is what is happening around Obama a political movement, as opposed to a cult of personality? This seems to be a movement based on happy talk and a charismatic figure who is dedicated to taking a charged political situation -- where our country has been raped by the conservative movement for 7 years+ -- and glossing it over with a lot of disingenuous talk about a "divisive food fight" in Washington and a need to stop fighting the fights of the '60s and '90s (you know, all that civil rights, women's rights, gay rights, and divisive peace bullshit).

If you read the other thead, you'll see that I hauled in with Clinton less than two weeks ago. Though I've written much more about Obama (sorry, I can't cover the waterfront, I've said highly critical things about Hillary in the past, and I stand by them; she's very far from my ideal candidate).

As for elitism, pardonnez-moi. What a bullshit complaint, and it reeks of cultism. Like how the Scientologists demonize psychiatrists because they're onto their mindfuck crap. If you dare doubt the Oborg, you're one of them elites who must be silenced. Next.

Though you claim to have carefully read the other thread, you say I never said what I mean by a cult. So read this item, if you would, from the other thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4478591&mesg_id=4479286

A considerable number of your fellow DU users said, in the earlier thread, that they've encountered this worrisome dimension in the Obama campaign. You want more documentation, fine. That's getting easier because more and more of the press -- which had been on fire with support of Obama -- is noting this worrisome characteristic. I am quite sincere when I say it's ultimately bad for Obama, as well as bad for the party, and bad for the country. There is a possibility that this buzz won't wear off, and it will carry him to the White House, and that he'll be able to be effective despite being in a bubble of unquestioning support (remind you of any presidents?). But as long as there's a little free speech to be had, I'm going to urge Obama and his campaign to do better. More JFK (whose mantle he's claimed), and less Benny Hinn.

I will be happy to post additional threads to do the follow-up work you have requested.

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[Big Blue Marble]

27. Your accusations remain baseless.

"I find that in some ways, among some people, support for Obama is taking on a cult-like un criticality (sp) and idolatry?"

This statement equally applies to some Hillary Clinton supporters, some Bush supporters, some Reagan supporters,
some JFK supporters and definitely more than some Bill Clinton supporters. So your point is?

Your answer to my request for proof of your serious charge is wait for the media to change its mind? Weak, very weak.

There is more than a hint of paranoia in your statement

"Like how the Scientologists demonize psychiatrists because they're onto their mindfuck crap.
If you dare doubt the Oborg, you're one of them elites who must be silenced."

Where in the world do you get this stuff?

Strangely, you are the one with the clear obsession about this non existent problem. You are the one making a non problem
into a pseudo crisis. There just isn't any there there. Because you get people to agree with you, people who are extremely
predisposed to dislike Obama, means nothing. Because you find blogs on the Internet that are repeating these baseless charges,
so what?

Opinion is not evidence. Get it. Opinion is well just opinion.

[lwcon]

29. Per your request, I've solicited evidence

So far, most of the evidence is coming in the form of kneejerk rage from Obama followers:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4520352

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[Big Blue Marble]

30. Oh no you started another thread.

"Kneejerk rage" is not evidence of a cult. If it were, then you would have to call many Hillary supporters
on DU cultists. I repeat I have been vilely attacked here for criticizing Hillary. I have seen many countless
other Obama supporters attacked with "kneejerk rage" as well. Are these Hillary supporters cultists too?

I saw little rage, much exasperation, and great sarcastic wit in your "evidentiary" thread.

I suggest it is in your interest and your reputation on this forum to let this go.

[lwcon]

35. Thank you for your concern for my interests and reputation

If you think that the HRC campaign is cultivating cultish behavior, I look forward to seeing your documentation of it. No need for anyone to be defensive, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm seeing a ton of unbridled rage in the other thread, a completely blind unwillingness to consider what many of us consider a real issue, and which -- with your prodding -- I will be documenting in more detail as soon as possible.

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[Big Blue Marble]

36. Iwcon, you just don't quit.

You are entitled to your opinion. If you believe as your posts imply that the Obama Campaign is promoting cultism within its supporters
you are more lost than I ever imagined. You have no proof of that. I would say if you continue to make this charge, you are on dangerous
ground.

On Du, many Hillary supporters are extremely insulting, and brutally attack Obama supporters. Where
is your concern that they are part of a cult? How many threads have you started about their behaviors?

Neither campaign is promoting such dribble. Both campaigns are promoting loyality in their supporters.
That is how you win elections.

As I said, what you are calling rage is the utter exasperation with your doggedness. Of course, you always will
find justification for what you are looking for especially when you have an agenda. Do you really want
to spend your energy in such a fruitless endeavor?

[lwcon]

37. Meaning what?

"I would say if you continue to make this charge, you are on dangerous
ground."

Please elaborate.

Also, my attempt to get people to contribute examples was shut down by the mods after a torrent of one-sided hate posts from the Obama fans. No oppressive, blind joinerism happening at all.

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[Big Blue Marble]

38. I did not mean to alarm you.

Dangerous was probably too strong a word. But I do think caution is appropriate. You seem to be saying in
some of your posts that the cult you claim originates within Obama's own campaign organization. You
have no proof or evidence for that. As I have said this is your opinion. And let me add that I
may have misinterpreted your meaning. If, so I apologize.

It is one thing to charge and counter charge with posters here on DU, justifying your attacks
with unvalidated opinion. Lots of people do that. That is the give and take of a board such as DU. And you have
every right to express your opinions on this board. I support your right to do so.
That is why we are all here.

But don't you think that is about far as you should go with these accusations?

[lwcon]

39. BBM, here's the sequence that led up to this post (and beyond)

1. Over the past several months, I’ve called Barack Obama to task for numerous statements he’s made
2. In the course of that, I’ve often debated with Obama supporters online, notably at my home blog (Correntewire), at DailyKos, and here at DU
3. Increasingly, I’ve sensed a disturbing cult-like belief in his transcendent infallibility among many of his adherents, both from those interactions with his online boosters and in coverage of his campaign events, etc.
4. I have heard others echo concerns about this cultish zeal
5. Recently, several bloggers and journalists have begun writing about this phenomenon, of a religion-like following developing around and seemingly encouraged by Obama and his campaign
6. In the past week, dozens of threads on Democratic Underground have derided the “cultism” theory
7. I wrote a post to test the waters to see if there were many others in that online community of Democrats who shared this perception (that there were cult-like elements in the campaign)
8. In fact, there were a lot of other Democrats who felt that way, and there were also many denials — many of them comically nasty and nearly all of which suggested (like every other online discussion some of us have had with Obama fans) an abject unwillingness to doubt anything about the candidate
9. I shared my observations from that discussion
10. I was asked to provide more documentation than the various observations that I and others provided in the thread noted in item #7
11. I started a new thread asking people who shared my concern to document how they'd gotten said impression about the Obama campaign and some of its supporters. The thread was swarmed by belligerent Obama supporters and was shut down by the mods.

I am left more concerned than ever that there is an unhealthy dynamic of my-transformative-candidate-or-else going on here.

When I get the chance to better collect the various articles, posts, comments, etc. that show how and/why this impression has become so strong for me (and, it turns out, many others), I will post it here and elsewhere and will undoubtedly face more unrelenting hostility from people who claim to represent Unity and Hope.

As a sidelight, I have yet to hear a single substantive answer to simple questions like "why, other than race, age, and charisma" is Obama held to be "transformative"? Why is his campaign called a "movement"? What does he plan to move and how? If he's such a brilliant orator, why can't he tap into the public's proven dissatisfaction with today's GOP, instead of spinning unchallenging malarkey about a "divisive food fight" in Washington and going out of his way to be dismissive of activists from the '60s and '90s (while gleefully claiming their sacrifices as his own).

It all leads to a disturbing sense that there's not much there there. That platitudes about "hope" and "change" are calculated heart-tugging, and that our best hope is that Obama is merely bullshitting his way to the White House as a centrist, and that he'll duck into a phonebooth and come out as an heroic progressive. In the meantime, anyone who questions his rhetoric, his air of messianic infallibility, or his adoring fans is treated like a heretic of the worst degree.

If I wanted to unquestioningly follow a supposedly infallible Leader, I would have become a Republican, something I most assuredly am not (though friendly Obama supporters keep telling me that I am, despite a lifetime of loyalty to the Party).

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[mrreowwr_kittty]

12. lwcon, given your pro-Clinton threads in the past

Would you be as concerned if HRC were attracting the kind of "cult" adulation that Obama is getting right now?

Why do I get the sense that you would be pretty happy about it? And not posting hair-on-fire "meta threads" about it?

[lwcon]

13. To what past are you referring?

The past that consists of the week-and-a-half since I decided whom to vote for after my candidate, Edwards, left the race?

Now, sure, I can see how supporters of particular candidate might not be the first to notice if some of their number started crossing over into religious-like idolatry, but at least for myself, I'm pretty allergic to religiosity, so I think I'd get the creeps like most anybody else (at least anybody else who's sensitive to groupthink and messianic adulation). I don't care for religiosity anywhere, but especially when it's mixed with my politics.

Which isn't to say I'm prejudiced against religious politicians (it would be hard to vote if I were). I particularly like this Evangelical Christian and this most excellent book.

And thank you for noticing my henna highlights! "On fire," very nice, very nice.

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[mrreowwr_kittty]

21. Give me a fucking break

Yet another blogger joins media/blogosphere groupthink about Obama supporters' group think. The irony, it burns. :eyes:

Funny how you noticed the "religious-like idolotry" the same time the rest of the Borg did. I looked through your blog, starting with your "conversion" to Hillary, and sure enough the cult stuff just started a few days ago.

And just so you know, as someone with personal experience watching someone I loved be nearly destroyed by a real cult, I find the Obama cult comparisons to be offensive.

[lwcon]

24. You can't have it both ways

Well, you're in the Obama camp, so you can. But let's look inside for the fun of it.

1. Your last accusation was that you've been onto me throughout my Hillbot past
2. Now, you're accusing me of not using the word "cult" early enough

So, which is it? I've been brainwashed long ago, or I haven't been complaining long enough? I'm too slow a learner?

If you want to study my blog, study my blog. Look at how many references there are to, say, "Kool-Aid" and Obama (dating back to 2006 -- BTW, that's your cue to switch back to "You've always been an Obama hater."). We tend toward the ironic, and the "c" word is kind of a blunt instrument. Not very artful, and you can see how galvanizing a word it is. But the understanding of this disturbing phenomenon has broken wide in the past week, and if you read the fucking post, you'd see that it was written in response to a rush of posts by the Obama Fan Base (sorry the Obama Cult, my bad for not hitting it harder and earlier) with whines of denial.

Oh, and fuck that "we can't use the word 'cult'" bullshit. My father was killed by cigarettes. If someones say that Angie Harmon is smokin', I don't freak out on them, nor if someone calls a ballplayer a "clubhouse cancer." Language control, mind control same fucking bullshit.

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[mrreowwr_kittty]

26. Your bullshit reeks through the computer screen

Strawman after strawman, along with more cheap insults, and a dash of obfuscation, because you've been called out for your lack of originality in jumping on the Obama-supporters-are-a-cult-bandwagon.

And then possibly the fucking lamest attempt at using metaphor to backpedal on your offensive shit I've ever seen:

Oh, and fuck that "we can't use the word 'cult'" bullshit. My father was killed by cigarettes. If someones say that Angie Harmon is smokin', I don't freak out on them, nor if someone calls a ballplayer a "clubhouse cancer." Language control, mind control same fucking bullshit.


Bull fucking shit. You accused Obama supporters of being a cult. Not a metaphorical cult. A cult. I don't give a shit when you started hating Obama. All I know is you are being a dick right now.


BTW, I've always thought John Edwards was kind of a weasel. Apparently, a lot of voters agreed with me. So there.

[HughMoran]

14. K&R

This is just a placeholder post so I can find this tomorrow. Its' too late to post much of anything now. I will say that you make me jealous with your writing and proper use of 5 cent vocabulary words (or "wordsmithing" as described above).

Thanks for you contribution - it provides a base level of sanity here - thus helping to keep peoples perspectives aligned with what I consider to be "reality".

[JimGinPA]

15. I like John Edwards...

I voted for him for VP in 2004, donated to the Kerry/Edwards campaign and I volunteered for our Democratic Party here in one of the reddest counties in Pennsylvania.

Edwards just didn't "deliver the goods" for me in this election cycle. I thought he did poorly in the debates and his "son-of-a-millworker" message was a little redundant. I decided to support Obama early on, because of positions he's taken that I agree with. I find Hillary and her political style repugnant, and if she manages to steal the nomination, the way Bush stole the last two elections, I'm not sure if I'll stay home in November or look into another "progressive" candidate from a lessor party.

Having said that, I saw your earlier thread about the "cultism" and didn't bother to reply to it because I just figured you to be another Clinton Obama-slammer, albeit slightly more literate than than most here. Now that I see you're simply a bitter Edwards supporter lonely for a conversation, I have a certain amount of empathy for you.

[lwcon]

16. Thank you, Dr. Phil n/t

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[DemBones DemBones]

17. I'm not looking forward to a McCain presidency and fear that's

exactly where Obama fever will take us.

I swore I wouldn't vote for Hillary if she won the nomination; anyone can search my posts mentioning Clinton for the past year or two if they doubt this.

But now that it's either her or Obama, I truly hope that she wins the nomination. She's not as progressive as I'd like our next president to be but I think she'd do a much better job than Obama.

For starters, I think she can beat McCain, don't think Obama can. The media love him now, like they loved Howard Dean in 2003-04, but we all remember how they turned on Dean. You can take it to the bank that they will turn on Obama, too, and paint McCain as a saint and super-patriot.

If Obama did become president, I believe he would be a big disappointment to the supporters who seem to think he's the reincarnation of MLK, Gandhi, JFK, RFK, FDR, and Jesus.

A :kick: for sanity.

[JNelson6563]

23. I've been thinking along those same lines

Since Edwards has dropped out I've been taking a closer look at both Clinton & Obama, reaching similar conclusions to yours.

Julie

[lwcon]

28. Look at the enlightened discussion going on over here...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4520352

People keep asking me for examples, and when I request a roundup of them, his devotees get busy proving my point.

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[JNelson6563]

34. Though the discussion in this thread is

more enlightened thean most these days. I thought your OP was well done. :toast:

Julie

[Bonobo]

32. You used a lot of words to cover up a simple, obnoxious accusation:

That Obama is a charismatic cult-leader type and his supporters are cult-ish.

Pretensions to be anything more than that are fine, but it is NOT why your OP got 149 recs.

[lwcon]

33. So why did those folks rec that post?

They all hate charisma, hope, democracy, ponies, winning elections, and America? Plus they're all racist, Rovian, Hitlery puppets?

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