The more I listen to Hillary's speeches since Edwards "suspended", the more

[Seabiscuit]

I become convinced that *she* is the only one of the 2 candidates left who has truly integrated Edwards' message and policies into her platform.

Any Obama supporters merely flaming this thread with their usual rants will simply make themselves welcome to my "ignore" button.

I already voted for JRE in California on Super Tuesday, but if I lived in a state that hasn't had a primary yet, I'd vote for Hillary by now.

[bidenista]

1. but... but... HE'S A ROCKSTAR! nt

[neutron]

8. Clinton is giving a brilliant speech at Virginia Tech right now

you can downstream it at cnn. Talking about Economy.

[kurth]

14. Better teleprompter reader, you mean

[Auntie Bush]

26. Hillary can talk off the cuff...Obama er, er, er HAS to read off the teteprompter...just like bush^

But I gotta admit...he does a hell-of-a great job! No denying that!

[Bongo Prophet]

35. I think you know that is not true. Why spoil a positive post?

I find that both have their respective strengths, and both are democrats.
Hillary has improved and refined her message, and as the Op states, has incorporated more of John's message into hers.
I think that is a good thing. :thumbsup:

I am pro-Obama, pro-Clinton, pro-Edwards.
But FAR more than that, I am pro-democrat, pro-human, pro-environment.
Bigger principles put the small things into perspective.

Her JJ speech is great.

[Auntie Bush]

53. I think you misunderstood me or replied to the wrong post. I agree 100% with the OP.

I was responding to the teleprompter comment ... not the OP.

I am pro-Obama, pro-Clinton, pro-Edwards too.

I'm glad to see some of Edwards supporters realize Clinton has more issues in common with Edwards than Obama...who wants to compromise our issues with Rethugs. Hillary want to fight them just like Edwards. We think alike!:hi:

[Bongo Prophet]

59. In my research, Obama does not want to compromise, but frame the issues in ways that they can accept

So we agree the Obama doesn't just read teleprompters, which is silly.
I also thought Obama would be too conciliatory, but after more research, and closely listening, I think that is not the case, but rather that he would frame them in ways that he can peel off enough repubs to also get "Blue dog" dems cover. To me, that is what the Reagan comments came down to. that is of course, a case of DU panic causing me to have concerns that went away once I did the independent research. If I had not done that outside research, I might still have those doubts.

This would be similar to things people have panicked about Hillary being Bush lite, to one that was not really familiar with her. I have known her far longer, so already knew that was bull, but the process is the same. sometimes we "absorb" ideas from advocates, and get false impressions. Many people spreading false ideas are trolls or operatives, but often they are well meaning fellow dems repeating something that may or may not be true, and not even realizing that they are wrong.

The bottom line on that is that we all have to deal with many levels of spin as we do our research on policy, background, leadership qualities and so on.
Sometimes in our advocacy, we lose sight of similarities that are masked by the candidates different styles.


I have been comparing issues for awhile, and have been a longtime proponent of the "Apollo" style govt jobs, changing our energy footprint, building housing and infrastructure, and so on. All three of them plus Kucinich have been mentioning this for a while now, and it has gotten even better recently. Maybe their polling shows how popular it is with people.


My late dad and uncle worked during the depression in WPA and related FDR programs. Not only did it help feed their family, it taught them skills they may not have had, and the fruits of that labor are still standing today. The best ampitheaters and other park structures in texas were done in those years.

As a little bonus, FDR may have saved us from the US turning fascist at that time, much to the chagrin of Ford, Bushes, Mellons, etc.

Whether we think alike 100%, 80% or what have you, we are on the side of progress and have much work to do together - this will be true no matter the President.
If we can take this country back, and move us into a cleaner and more just future, history will smile upon what we have done.

[Seabiscuit]

76. To me, whatever else it might be, it's still the same old "triangulation" strategy

that has ALWAYS failed at the national level.

[Bongo Prophet]

91. In a way, it could be called that, I agree. The "triangle" is just shaped differently.

Ms. Prophet and I have discussed this very thing - two stlyes of triangulation. I have some notes on it, but am so pre-coffeee dullheaded right now, I can't even summarize it.

With the "points" being the public opinion (bully pulpit) Congress (intra-party) and (inter-party) - each would work with their different skill sets to move those to the shape they best can. While Obama might be able to better "stir the nation" in the pulpit, Clinton might be better at behind the scenes deals to get the votes.


I will always admit when i don't know something, and I really don't know how it would work out here.
The future only gives us one pass - often here we have discussed the parallel worlds of a Gore win in 2000, etc. - we live in a world of many options, but only one true timeline of reality. ;)
so I think you are right, and as time unfolds, we'll see it one or the other, or...that 3rd option.

[Usrename]

92. I thought Edwards didn't take any lobbyist money.

That was part of his message that hasn't filtered through to Hillary.

I don't think she sees anything at all wrong with buying influence in Washington, does she?

[Bongo Prophet]

96. You would have to take that up with her, I guess.

To say that some of Edwards message has been incorporated, does not mean that all of it has, or that her funding model changed.
I really don't know what any of the candidates think about many things.
wish I did.

[Usrename]

98. Edwards made it out to be the biggest difference between them.

Every chance he got, he said it. Every single debate, at every single opening in the discussion.

Other than that, Edwards claimed all three of them had much more in common than they had differences.

It just seems like whoever is claiming that Hillary has picked up John's message doesn't understand his message at all.

For Edwards, the way Washington does business won't work for advancing any agenda that is centered on "the good of the people."

Hillary says it works just fine, Washington is taylored to respond to corporate interests. Because lobbyists are real people.

[Bongo Prophet]

99. It'll be interesting to hear what John says about it.

I can't claim whether poster X or Y "doesn't understand his message at all" - how could I know?
to say that she incorporated john's message is an interesting turn of phrase, no?
enjoy the irony therein.

One could say she has adopted some of the language to capture the progressive market segment.
At the beginning of her campaign, in the "era of inevitability" the progressive wing was pretty written off.
Has she now 'seen the light' and is sincerely expanding her view, or is it just a way to get progressives to go to her side instead of Obama?

Each voter must make that choice.
Because we don't know the inner workings of politicians, we can only look at records, past behavior, etc.
At some point however, there is often a "leap of faith" that many take.
Most of us have to do this, whichever candidate it might be.

[Usrename]

100. 'Incorporated' John's message.

:rofl:

good catch,

it cracked me up!

[krabigirl]

61. I noticed that...why does he have to do that?

[Beregond2]

44. HC

What Hillary has "integrated" into her speeches says nothing about who she is and where her loyalties are. For that, you must look at her life story and the history of the nineties, which she is so anxious to lay claim to. There, you will see a woman who has always sided with big business, and an era that did more to destroy unions and export good-paying jobs than any other. That says a lot more to me than any talking points she currently finds it convenient to co-opt.

[Seabiscuit]

55. Spoken like a true cynic's cynic.

[maddiejoan]

2. Thanks for that Seabiscuit.

I'm delighted that Hillary has seemed to pick up Edwards' message as a torch to carry into the election as well.

Edwards was a close #2 for me.

[Straight Shooter]

3. Your post confirms my progression of my choice for candidates.

Dodd for the Constitution, then Edwards for the people. Now Hillary, because I think she will strive to maintain the best balance to help as many as she can, without infringing on those who have other interests.

Also, she never mocked Edwards compassion, as Barack has done. Shame on him.

[saracat]

4. That has been my conclusion as well.

[pathansen]

73. And Hillary has also stated she wants Edwards to be part of her Administration

If she gets elected.

[patrice]

5. Universal HC is universal, not something else. This IS clear. nt

[KittyWampus]

10. Universal Health INSURANCE is very different than Universal Health Care.

[Seabiscuit]

56. Edwards' health plan is the closest thing to universal HC, and Hillary's is the next closest.

Obama clearly hasn't given much thought to it - his "plan" comes across as a total mish-mash of mindnumbing confusion.

[OzarkDem]

6. Their health care policies are very, very close

She is the most identical to Edwards where vision and policy are concerned.

[Hieronymus]

25. It appeared to me that Edwards sided with Obama more.

[nonconformist]

39. Was that before or after Obama mocked him for caring about poor people too much? nt

[Hieronymus]

65. By all means, tell us exactly what Obama said that put down Edwards' ..

concern for the poor.

[OzarkDem]

42. Look at their health care plans, very very different

You assumed incorrectly.

[Hieronymus]

66. Oh, I did? Get over yourself.

[kid a]

7. welcome to my ignore button

[Bongo Prophet]

41. You will be missing some good posts, then. seabisquit is one of the good ones.

Your loss, I guess.
but your choice, as well - maybe it will make both of your lives easier.
Less arguments, less rancor between sides.

[Occam Bandage]

82. It's difficult for me to believe that anyone who says,

"If you disagree with me I will put you on ignore," can be considered "one of the good ones."

[Straight Shooter]

89. Read seabiscuit's post again, OB. He does not base it on simple "disagreement."

"Any Obama supporters merely flaming this thread with their usual rants will simply make themselves welcome to my "ignore" button."

I think "flaming" and "rants" are the key words, here.

[KittyWampus]

9. Can you show me where, on her Issues page, she goes into detail on Poverty?

Obama has a detailed Issues section devoted to that topic. Edwards' signature.

Clinton has, nothing. A vague section on helping the Middle Class.

I am not talking about a press release.

Maybe I just missed that section on her Issues page? If so I apologise.

[BlackVelvet04]

16. If you could be bothered to read all of her

policies she addresses poverty in a number of ways. It doesn't really have to be just a special section that says POVERTY in order for it to be addressed. Grow up.

[KittyWampus]

18. All I found, searching her Issues pages, was vague mentions of what she'll do for the middle class

I SEARCHED AND FOUND NOTHING.

Now maybe I missed it, I apologise if that's the case.

But from her Issues page, there's not one mention of Poverty.

[OzarkDem]

31. She covers poverty from many angles

She knows that fixing it requires a multifacted approach:

Jobs
Health Care
Education
Financial Assistance
Helping Young People
Economic Opportunity
Reducing Crime and Imprisonment

Here are some more links, plenty to read. Look in the sidebar to the right of her issues pages for more detailed analysis of sub categories.

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/release/view/?id=2596

[OzarkDem]

27. Sure, here's a few links, there was a good discussion here last night

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/middleclass/

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/family/

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/women/

[KittyWampus]

36. Poverty is an Issue unto itself. And her website simply mentions things vaguely & geared towards

middle class.

[OzarkDem]

40. Your argument is dishonest

Poverty is caused by many things and there is no quick fix for it.

If you don't want to take the time to read her proposals, just say so.

Please show me, then, point by point, how Obama's plan is better. K?

[KittyWampus]

51. As an Edwards supporter, YOU are the one being dishonest. Poverty is an Issue unto itself

it has causes that must be addressed systemically.

If she were sincerely interested in tackling Poverty, she'd know the Issue must have a comprehensive, holostic approach.

I shouldn't have to hunt and peck for how she's going to address the problems UNIQUELY FOUND AMONGST POOR PEOPLE.

And I can't compare the two because Hillary doesn't have any plans to address how she will help the POOR deal with:

Expanded Access to Jobs- it's very different getting chronically poor people to work than it is someone with an education and past work experience.
Increase the Supply of Affordable Housing- it's very different getting housing for those who may not have jobs or credit.
Tackle Concentrated Poverty- this involves things like Urban redevelopment.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

11. hillary listens to the people. someone people call it political convenience etc

but i think of merely listening to the peoples voice.

[sandyd921]

12. I totally agree!

I saw Hillary today at an event in Maine and I was thinking the same thing! I also find that she has many well thought out policies in every area that I care about. I am really rooting for her now! Go Hillary!

[keep_it_real]

13. Hil's speaches are INSPIRED by Obama

This is crystal clear, her speech writers are inspired by obama's speeches. Hil is trying to out do Obama. Did you expect anything else? Hil is a copy-cat.

[Straight Shooter]

30. Your user name is amusingly ironic. n/t

[Hieronymus]

70. Hillary changed from "me", "me", "me" speeches to "we" and "you" within ......

hours after she was criticized by the media.

[Fresh_Start]

15. This Edwards supporter agrees with you

Hillary has been closer to the heart of the Democratic party.

[jsamuel]

17. This Edwards supporter agrees too. I voted for Clinton of Feb 5 because I thought this would happen

[Seabiscuit]

19. That would make you a true Edwardian visionary.

:hi:

[Iceburg]

20. Totally agree. Both have worked tirelessly toward the same goal./nt

[Iceburg]

21. Totally agree. Both have worked tirelessly toward the same goal./nt

[Iceburg]

22. Totally agree. Both have worked tirelessly toward the same goal./nt

[Iceburg]

23. Ooops ....sorry for the multiple posts/nt

[Auntie Bush]

29. lol...I almost double posted too. This site is really running slow tonight.

[Seabiscuit]

63. That's perfectly all right. I appreciate the multiple kicks.

:)

[Yael]

24. Much respect, Seabiscuit

Its hard, aye? JRE could have taken this damn thing.

Although we disagree, much respect -- and thanks for speaking for us in CA on ST who had no voice on that day.

:hug:

[Seabiscuit]

33. Thanks, and no regrets...

you've got to go with your conscience, wherever it takes you.

[splat]

28. I am with you. I hope he endorses her. Obama's got some dues to pay yet.

[Seabiscuit]

32. Hey, you lovely Edwards people, thanks for all the "recs".

I wasn't looking for anything more than to express a feeling I got tonight watching Hillary speak.

[Maximus Invictus]

34. Hillary is a damm of fighter!!!

Good Luck Hillary!

From Europe With Love...

[Seabiscuit]

52. Welcome to DU, Maximus!

[nonconformist]

37. I completely agree. nt

[flyarm]

38. well all the Obama people's nastiness has sent me in the same direction..

i am sick of the baiting and the games being played by them..they never answer a legit question without smearing you first..i have had it with them..

i still haven't decided who i will support in Nov..i already voted for Edwards in the primary...but i can no longer stand the obama people.

fly

[Bongo Prophet]

97. Flyarm, did you ever find out anything about WHY John quit his campaign?

It would be so interesting to know what went down with that.

Maybe we'll never know, or maybe we'll have to wait for the book.


There are some good "Obama people" just as there are some good "Clinton people"...To me, "they" are just US, but with differing views or strategies, personality styles and attitudes. Some people really act like jerks. I have not seen it confined to any one side, my main concern is that we let THEM affect US.

Vote your conscience and sleep well at night.
Respect.

[spooky3]

43. both H and E understand that you have to fight the RWers

moderates and independents are one thing but the Rethug party has been drawn so far to the right, it is frightening. Compromise isn't possible. The Dems. have to get large enough majorities in both houses of Congress.

[Bread and Circus]

45. ok... thanks for recommending other people do what you failed to do when you had a chance..,

[Seabiscuit]

46. Huh???

Can you try to speak clear English?

[Bongo Prophet]

47. It is in large part to John's credit that both Barack and Hillary have "green collar" jobs, etc.

And I should add Dennis in that as well.
It is now a DEM talking point, and so downticket candidates have another winning issue.

as others have mentioned, and rightly so - dealing with jobs and poverty is much more than just mentioning it. More than anything, I am impressed with the wholistic approach that our candidates have expressed this time around. Energy, jobs, human rights and infrastructure are all interrelated. Though they have each tweaked their PR language to better sell their ideas to the voters, each of them had much of this attitude from the outset.

Finally, we should consider Al Gore and the general cultural revolution just waiting to be born.
Zeitgeist, baby! Celebrate it! :hi:

[avrdream]

93. I agree with you Bongo.

I am glad that Edwards and Kucinich have pushed their ideas so much because we, as Democrats, needed to come to this place (UHC, for example) with pride, not with fear. I believe that the candidates were afraid to publicly address some of these issues until JE and DK spoke up about them.

I feel certain that HRC would definitely have addressed UHC as President but not sure how much she would have discussed it on the campaign trail. These guys live with the realities of politics and JE pushed them outside of that "comfort zone". For that I will always be grateful.

[Andromeda]

48. Thank you Seabiscuit.

I'm feeling a little blue today and your post cheered me up--a lot!

When JE quit I felt so sad because he had such a good message. Hillary has integrated John's message into her platform and I'm glad of that. I just hope America wakes up and realizes that she is the best person for our country.

John was my #2 and he worked so hard to connect with the people. If he had been the frontrunner instead of Hillary I would have done everything in my power to help him get elected.

[Danger Mouse]

49. I disagree with you quite strongly.

but hey, however you wanna see it... :shrug:

[Kermitt Gribble]

50. Congrats!

I also moved to the Clinton camp after John dropped out.

K&R!

[jannyk]

54. I'm with you SB - Clinton is also my choice after JE. nt

[Armstead]

57. I'm an Edwards supporter, and I just don't trust her

I read Bill Clinton's 1992 speech recently. He sounded very populist and progressive back then, but ignored or fell short of everything he stated back then. I have no reason Hillary will be any different.

Plus I have read in the business press that Hillary reassured muckity mucks that she won't really be populist.

[Seabiscuit]

58. I've always felt that way about the Clintons too... until recently.

We've only got 2 choices left.

When it comes to "distrust" we have to weigh one candidate against the other.

And as much as I've distrusted the Clintons for almost 2 decades, I must say that Obama has eclipsed them both in a few short months when it comes to inspiring "distrust".

Why, just a few weeks ago, he was dancing cheek to cheek with Reagan's skeletal remains:

[Armstead]

60. Funny graphic

You're probably right about having to weigh mistrust.

I actually agree with what Obama said about Reagan. I despise everything REagan stood for, but the fact is that he set about to chart a course and he was able to move the country in that direction for the next 35 years.

What we need is a Democrat who can do the same thing to move the country in the right direction.

[Digit]

62. Edwards supporter, and I agree Seabiscuit

although I still hold a fantasy of JE coming back somehow or Gore jumping in at the last minute to save us all...

[Seabiscuit]

64. Ahh... yes... If wishes were horses,

beggars would ride
If turnips were swords, i'd wear one by my side
If ifs and ands were pots and pans,
There'd be no need for tinkers' hands

If wishes were horses,
Beggars would ride;
If wishes were fishes,
We'd all have some fried.

[WA98070]

67. Interesting...he got it from Kucinich. She'll change her spots as she sees fit. Or should I say the

polls? Why does anyone trust her? Who is the real Hilary? Why expect more she is married to "Slick Willie"!

[Seabiscuit]

71. I don't know why, but for the first time I think Hillary may mean it now.

A few months ago I would have been a lot more cynical.

Maybe it's just a result of feeling exasperated that JRE is gone and a personal need for some ray of hope.

All I know for sure is that at least she's incorporating his message in her speeches, whereas Obama is not.

It's all we have left to go on.

[sykalla]

68. No Brainer!

When one candidate focuses on vague catch phrases like "Hope, Change, etc" instead of on the policy to implement "change" It becomes a no-brainer.

In reality they are quite close. But I refuse to become a cult of personality to a politcal moderate who masquerades as a progressive/populist. I'd much rather go with the Clintons who have a proven al-beit somewhat moderate track record.

Peace!
Former Edwards Supporter

[gmudem]

69. I am a strong Edwards supporter

But I have noticed both Clinton and Obama using some of Edwards lines. However I find Obama much more believable than Clinton because if she truly cared about Edwards causes, she might have tried showing some of that in her "35 years of experience."

[FreeStateDemocrat]

72. Edwards supporter & I never thought I would say this but Hillary is definitely the one now.

Big part of reason is Bubba, warts and all, he can handle the job. BO is a lightweight that is all flash, charisma, and delusion who will easily be denied the office in the general election. The best chance now is Al Gore but if not, sadly, it is Billary. I may still vote for Edwards on Tuesday but am now more worried about stopping a potential BO debacle in November.


edit due to bad vision.

[Honeycombe8]

74. She's had about 14 years to do something about poverty. She hasn't.

She's had about 14 years to do something about global warming, the environment, not requiring more mpg for autos, stopping outsourcing of jobs.

The Clintons didn't do much, if anything, about any of these things.

If you keep electing the same people who have done nothing helpful, you can expect to simply get more of the same.

[Seabiscuit]

75. So she's responsible for the Republican control of the Senate during that time?

[zulchzulu]

77. Glad to be on your Ignore list if you want

Hillary Clinton will say anything to appease whoever she is presently talking to. I guess since you didn't mind Edwards being a warmonger when he was Senator (when it counted), you don't mind her phony rhetoric either.

She could debate herself and have her opposing argument by herself be the response.

As for her avoiding the question when asked about fining people or garnishing their wages if they don't suck into the healthcare insurance lobbyist wet dream with forced individual mandates that won't pass anyway, her "real solutions to real problems" is nothing more than political theater knowing that the healthcare and pharma lobbyists who she gots tons of money from will never allow it. Call it Hillarycare Failure 2.0.

Many people I know will leave the Democratic Party if she is the nominee. Talk about a shitty, divisive candidate... Stick to the '90s when it's actually the 21st Century.

Buh bye...

[Seabiscuit]

78. Here's a refreshing observation:

Out of 77 replies, only 13 are from "Ignored".

Not bad.

On edit: Oops. Make that 14 now. At least they kick the thread by posting in it.

[CoffeeCat]

79. One of JE's biggest passions...

...is fighting against the corporate corruption that has a stranglehold on
Washington and our nation.

Hillary is swimming in corporate money and is part of that problem. She
never addresses this issue at all, because she is engaging in the behavior.

Furthermore, JE was the only candidate to come out and say the word "neocon".
He understands very well where the lines are drawn with the neocon establishment
and what is behind Hillary's pro-war votes--no matter how she spins those votes.

Hillary and JE may be aligned on select social issues. Their healthcare plans
may have commonalities. However, the chasm between Hillary's corporate corruption
and her continued enabling of the neocons--is so wide and deep.

There's just so way. No way he supports her.

[Seabiscuit]

80. w/r/t "neocon".

Long before "neocon" became part of our lexicon, Hillary was referring to them as the "vast right-wing conspiracy" that dogged the Clintons for 8 years in the White House. I think she gets it by now.

Whatever else she may be, I wouldn't ever say she's in bed with the "neocons".

[Occam Bandage]

81. Not surprising. She's tried to poach all of Obama's themes, too. She's running

a copycat campaign.

Obama runs with change? Suddenly, she's the real candidate of change.

Obama gives a fantastic speech in NH, laying down the theme, "Yes, we can?" Her supporters start chanting, "Yes she can." (Hey, way to miss the point.)

Obama claims he's an underdog going up against the party establishment? Clinton turns around and claims, laughably, that she's an underdog against the party establishment.

Hey, and now that JRE's out, she's aping him, too? Totally unsurprising.

[SammyWinstonJack]

83. You've convince me. I was going to vote Edwards in the primary.

It would have been a "heart" vote. I was leaning toward Hillary anyway so I'll now vote for her, instead. But I will always be an EDWARDS DEMOCRAT

[Seabiscuit]

85. Happy to hear it.

But my OP wasn't an effort to convince anyone. Just a reflection of some thoughts I had yesterday.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

84. ~

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/video/121.aspx

[mzmolly]

86. I almost regretted caucusing for Edwards on Super T. I found myself wishing I'd voted for Obama.

This, after hearing his amazing speech last night. ;) Though, I am in the I'll happily vote for the nominee" camp.

[glowing]

87. I agree.. Her speach last night was really good and I think she was

happier speaking like that about issues that really matter to her.. Like Education and Healthcare...

And instead of just throwing money at teachers and school boards, she seems to want to actually fix education.

[Stand and Fight]

88. That's the same conclusion I came to...

When Edwards was not viable here in the Nevada caucuses, I tried to convince other supporters to go to the Hillary camp. There were 11 of us -- I got 7 including myself -- to go to Clinton.

[blm]

90. If she was sincere she would've been talking like it from the getgo. She's been planning

this run since 2000. Edwards and Obama doing as well asa they did with THEIR messages FORCED her to adjust.

She gives me no reason to believe she means any of it. Bill did this exact same sweet talk about ethics and corruption in 92 and many of us believed him. What did he do when he got into office?

[we can do it]

94. I'm with You , Started with Kucinch, Went To Edwards and Will Vote Hillary

March 4th here in Ohio.

[Seabiscuit]

102. We followed the same path.

Except I already voted for Edwards Feb. 5.

[shayes51]

95. Thank you!

:pals:

[Beacool]

101. I'm glad that you're going with Hillary!!!

I wish that it was a Clinton/Edwards ticket, but it seems that the country would rather go for the American Idol type rather than the person who actually knows the issues inside out.

She gave a great speech last night, even Rachel Maddow made a point of mentioning it today. She thought that it was one of the best speeches she had ever heard from Hillary.

:hi: