Sometimes I wonder if the fix is already in...and I hate thinking that way!

[Shine]

I gotta tell ya, I'm worried about the damn voting machines. I worry about them running on proprietary software that's been shown to be easily hacked. Why can I get a receipt for a burger and fries down the street or at the bank ATM when I get some cash out, but I can't get a receipt for the most precious of my rights as a citizen? :shrug: It makes no sense to me! There needs to be a paper trail. I think all federal elections should be held on paper ballots.

It's not rocket science, but clearly it's an issue that doesn't seem to get much play in the media or our government, I suppose for obvious reasons... :eyes:

Plus, the M$M is basically controlled by only about five huge conglomerations...and THEY'RE the ones who tell us who actually wins.

"It's not the people who vote that counts; It's the people who counts the votes." ~Joseph Stalin.

I want to believe in my vote making a difference to create Change in the world. I always vote absentee, which is paper, in order to feel like it is. I will keep on voting, but sometimes I can't help but feel pessimistic.

....and I don't like feeling pessimistic or tin-foily. :( Am I completely off-base, or can others relate to my concerns?

[WCGreen]

1. Or run the freakin' lottery...

A state can do that and people have great faith in the numbers...

But elections...

That's another story...

[EFerrari]

2. Come work election protection with us, Shine.

Then you'll know you've done everything you can do.

[Shine]

18. What exactly would that entail?

:D

ps. nasty news story out on Gavin in today's sf chron. I'm beginning to see what you mean about him...

:hi:

[EFerrari]

31. There's a range of things we can do depending on how much

time we have. I'm going to post a thread about it next week with some suggestions.

It does make a difference to have eyes watching a district or a precinct or a race. And the more, the better.

I'll pm you when it's up. :hi:

[Shine]

34. Sounds good. Thanks!

:hi:

[BenDavid]

3. Don't worry about the software if obama is the nominee. The

concern is if obama gets the nomination oh say within a couple of weeks bush comes before the country and tells us all the iraqi government has been installed. The parliment has all agreed to work and the government of the people is now up and running.....and bush then says if things maintain as well as the SURGE has then we should be able to bring home at least 20 to 30 thousand soldiers by Christmas...
McCain receives the benefit and because obama is the anti war candidate this will make him look silly and nothing makes the american people more happier then to know troops are coming home.....

So do not worry bout the voting machines....worry what bush will do to help McCain....
oh this would not work against HRC....oh you all remember that lil vote you all wanted her to apologize for? uh huh that vote....see how it will come into play in the general election....this is primed and ready to go against obama....

[Shine]

8. Interesting perspective....

hmmm..

I concur that the Repukes will do whatever they can to win.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

10. this worries me, but not for the reason you might think

I like Hillary, Despite the iraq and iran votes,

but as a dem, don't think that that wouldn't change if she starts touting that as a plus

I feel lucky that my primary vote here in texas will count this time around, but I will Not vote for a war monger, no matter what, so I suggest you either stop spreading this propaganda or go find a republican site you can express your anti-dem. positions on

[Hutzpa]

23. Oh Really,

even sheep's can be stubborn sometimes, especially when they get
tired of being run around.













~The Shepherd

[never_get_over_it]

29. Barack Obama is the anti-war candidate?

wow you could have fucking fooled me - I must have missed all that anti-war stuff he did - while in the Senate

Only real anti-war candidates best I can tell are/were Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul - who actually did vote NO on IWR and FUNDING - I must have slept through all those inspirational Senate floor speeches given by Senator Obama - after all he is such a good speaker - so inspirational - how many speeches did he give on the Senate floor trying to get our troops home?

we have to worry about it ALL - what the fool-in-chief might do to help McCain, caging, voter suppression, swiftboating, and MACHINES

doesn't matter who is the candidate WE'RE SCREWED - AGAIN I'm only hoping this time one of our candidates ACTUALLY DOES SOMETHING ABOUT IT - Al Gore tried - but you know I think he took it as far as he could - once it went to the Extreme Court - he didn't have too many options left - could have tried to protest the Florida electoral college vote but that wouldn't have worked - and I'm sure he thought any future political career would be destroyed - and can you imagine the M$M if some how he had succeeded - they would have made his life a living HELL for four years claiming he STOLE the election - you know up is down and black is white....and also I don't think in January 2001 anyone could imagine just how BAD it would all turn out....

[CaliforniaPeggy]

4. My dear Shine!

I don't know about the rest of the country...

But Debra Bowen, our intelligent and highly motivated SOS, has decreed that the touch-screen machines are not reliable, and that they cannot be used in California...

We will use something else...

Not sure what, though...

:pals:

[Shine]

9. At least CA gets the picture, but there are many states that don't yet.

sadly. :(

:hi:

[TexasObserver]

5. I favor caucuses now because election integrity is such a joke.

Caucuses require real humans. Hard to fake the outcome when 1500 Obama supporters show up and only 26 Hillary supporters show up at a box. But ballots can be stolen, and computers can be hacked or programmed to steal votes from one and add it to another.

I think someone may have stolen New Hampshire that way.

[nonconformist]

12. I thought the OP was about the General Election, not our Democratic primary.

You seriously think that Hillary is going to STEAL the election with votes?

[juajen]

16. I do not like caucuses because anyone can get in.

If they would limit them to identified registered voters I would have no problem. I believe Obama has won a lot of the caucuses because pugs come in to fool with our elections and get the outcome they want. Flame all you want, but you have to know what happened at the very beginning with Iowa. They let anybody caucus. Any warm body would do. You won't find republican caucuses that allow dems in. Honestly, declare you're a dem, and them change it afterwards. Why do any of you put up with that? Huh? It makes me very suspicious of all caucuses. I had no objection to of age eligible voters caucusing, but we know you did not have to have id,your age was no problem and you could be a dem, indie, or pug, and live freakin' anywhere. Unconscionable. I'm sure some of them have better requirements than Iowa, but I can't seem to get hold of rules for all caucuses held in US. Perhaps someone could oblige me.

[Shine]

20. hmmm...that's interesting,

so you're saying the caucuses, themselves, are shady?

[Hutzpa]

24. Ballots can be stolen...as in New Mexico n/t

[TexasObserver]

33. Yes, New Mexico has a problem with shady ballot dealings Super Tuesday

[flyarm]

6. it is ..it began with all the others and culminated with Edwards..the fix has long been in! eom

[Thrill]

7. I said this earlier. Seeing how incompetent the Democratic Parties

are conducting some of these Primaries.

I'm convinced the Repukes are going to steal it again

[Shine]

13. I'm a big believer in the power of thought, so this perspective scares me

I don't want to keep thinking and worrying about it getting stolen...but it's like that damn analogy I'm sure you've heard before: "Whatever you do, DON'T think about a pink elephant." .....so, of course, that's ALL you think about.

:( I want to envision an electoral process that's clean....but I am in conflict with myself about it.

Does that mean I'm being "pragmatic" with my cynicism? How sad is THAT? I dunno, it's frustrating for me.

[XemaSab]

11. I had a friend up in Humboldt who was a little new-agey and a little hippy-dippy

but her take on it was, okay: peace on earth. We all want peace on earth. But one person cannot single-handedly create peace on earth.

What to do?

The only thing we CAN do is create peace immediately around us. By creating an aura of peace, we will give the gift of peace to people around us. They in turn will give peace to people around THEM, and peace on earth will happen.

I figure anything bad can be combatted by the same rules. :shrug:

[Shine]

15. Right. I get what you're saying.

I think the power of thought and what we focus on cannot be underestimated. Yes, my fears revolve around a fraudulent election, but if I (we) give in to those fears and spend a lot of my mental energy focusing on what might go wrong...how much does that move us in that very direction??

For me, it's the ultimate mind fuck. :crazy: maybe I'm just feeling a bit negative right now, I dunno.

:(

[XemaSab]

19. You ever read "Moral Politics?"

:shrug:

[Shine]

22. Nope. Is it good?

:shrug: nice bedtime reading? :D

[XemaSab]

25. I think you'd really like it

It's very positive, and explains progressive ideas in a way that makes sense.

It's good bedtime reading if you're into neurolinguistics. :D

[Shine]

26. Oh...this is that guy George Lakoff, right?

I think I've read some of his other stuff. :thumbsup: "Don't Think of an Elephant" was what it was. The importance of language, particularly how it's used in the political domain, is FASCINATING.

[XemaSab]

27. That's the one

:D

[Fredda Weinberg]

14. You don't get receipts because there shouldn't be a way to

associate your vote w/your registration. If the receipt is printed out when you vote, you don't need an indentifier, do you?

So, computer scientists have been looking at the systems that are not "easily hacked". Yeah, cryptography has advanced, but you don't care about such details.

[Hutzpa]

17. I concur,

there are states that show surprises this past Super Tuesday, where exit polls
shows Obama leading but M$M where reporting too close to call (New Jersey, Massachusetts).
You can call me names, but, I take nothing for granted.....:tinfoilhat:

How else can you explain HRC winning Primary states but not Caucuses, Obama has won
two Primary states, S.C and LA. You can't cheat with people, but you can tweak
the voting machines.

Same shit happens in Louisiana this evening, the fix was almost on, and some thing
happened which prevents them from going ahead.....I wish I knew what stopped them.
Could be, Louisiana is predominantly Blacks....just not sure what made them stop short.

This is about the Status Quo.....here is how the shit works, when the media starts
saying to close to call, I get extremely nervous.

Too Close to Call is the signal for fixing.

[juajen]

28. Well, we are all in deep doo-doo!

Hillaryites don't trust the caucuses, and obamites don't trust the primaries. I will say this; if Hillary was fixing anything, we would not be continuing.

[Hutzpa]

30. Sure, maybe if some of us can

learn to think outside the box instead of inside, maybe, just maybe
we can stop being treated like flock of sheeps.

[ShadowLiberal]

21. Unfortunately even paper ballot elections can be rigged

It would be harder to rig a paper ballot election I agree, but they have been rigged before. There's been cases of people winning an election by getting 15 times the number of votes as there are eligible voters. One of my old history teachers once said that he heard of one cheat story ages ago with paper ballots where they told a little kid in the back where all the paper ballots went to when voters dropped them in the ballot box to burn all the 'bad' votes for the 'bad' party (he didn't say which party it was) in a furnace.

Computers that are hacked however are definitely infinitely worse for the rigging potential then a paper ballots, as it's harder to catch someone who does a crime electronically.

[TexasObserver]

32. Someone or many someones are always trying to fix elections.

Media outlets do it. The New York Times and CNN are trying to help Hillary get the nomination.

Long time party ward heelers do it, like those two clowns in New Mexico.

State officials who wrongly delete or change voter registrations do it, like in Florida every year.

There's a lot of cheating that is attempted and some of it is successful. Look at New Mexico this past week.

[Shine]

35. Pretty outrageous, huh?

:grr:

[Shine]

36. kick for more discussion

:kick: