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Why Hillary's IWR vote counts. My uncle called last night.

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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 10:39 AM
Original message
Why Hillary's IWR vote counts. My uncle called last night.
Edited on Sun Feb-10-08 10:44 AM by Skidmore
He had some bad news. A young cousin (distant cousin, but family nonetheless) who had returned from his third tour in Iraq recently had been experiencing severe emotional trouble since his return. He lost control and killed his wife.

A couple of days ago, I called my cousin in Tennessee to see if they had weathered the tornadoes safely. The storms were the least of her concern. Her son, a career soldier, has been to Iraq 4 times, and is a mess. He's being treated for PTSD and she's worried about how to keep him in treatment. Told me that he is sometimes unrecognizable as the child she raised. Now her granddaughter and the young woman's husband are both to be deployed shortly.

This is what our extended family is living with right now. And there are many other families, American and Iraqi, living with the emotional and physical fallout of this war. When you look around you with your finger in the air before you vote to hand over war powers and oversight to a man proven to be unworthy of trust, you create death and misery. I hold her responsible for that vote, as I do many others in Congress.
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SoFlaJet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
1. sorry to hear that
as a brother of a Vietnam vet I can relate...my brother passed away in November at 60 after a life filled with emotional and substance abuse problems-all I can say is he was never the same guy as before he went over there in 1965 as he ended up being from '69 on...Look this is George Bush's war, Hillary had a small part in it but I ain't blaming her for it all...partly...her vote against really wouldn't have changed anything-this from an anti-war from the start Edwards and now Obama supporter
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #1
16. It would have made a huge difference in
Edited on Sun Feb-10-08 11:30 AM by zidzi
hilary's moral being..she could have taken a stand instead of going along for political calculations. Dont's forget they thought it would be over in few days with FLOWERS instead of bombs to send our Soldiers home.
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90-percent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
2. My understanding
Edited on Sun Feb-10-08 10:52 AM by 90-percent
My understanding is that Hillary voted the same way with the same quality of information for the "IRAN WAR RESOLUTION" of JUST LAST YEAR.

It is only the CIA and Intelligence Community whistle blowers that put the brakes on Bush's Iran propaganda campaign.

Falling for Bush BS ONCE in the fervor that was 2003 is one thing. Repeating the dumbness in a better informed 2007 is inexcusable and eliminates Hillary from Presidential consideration in my book.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

My condolences on the tragedies wrought on your family to feed our military-industrial-congressional complex.

-90% Jimmy
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alteredstate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. I couldn't agree with you more.
Thank you for your eloquent post.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #2
17. hilary has to look tough, don'cha know..
at the expense of other people's blood.
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SoFlaJet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #2
47. yea it's much harder
to defend the Iran vote by playing the "I didn't know they actually WANTED a war" than it is the IWR vote-let's face MU, they were lying their asses off and saying anything to GET that war. Kyl/LIEberman is unforgivable and one of THE main reasons I'm supporting Obama over Clinton. John Edwards was right when he said how naive is it to sit there and say you didn't think they'd actually start a war in Iran (if it happens) by the Bush admin.'s past history
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
3. All who think Bush started his Iraq war only becuase Clinton voted for IWR are fooling themselves.
Edited on Sun Feb-10-08 10:52 AM by MethuenProgressive
Our is a military family, with members back from I&A, members back-and-going-back, and members who are on their way. We've buried the sons of friends killed in I&A. No one I know blames Bush's Iraq War on Hillary Clinton.
It's a cheap and dishonest political scam to blame Iraq on Clinton.
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Terry_M Donating Member (559 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. It's unfair to single out a single senator
But it is fair to blame everyone that voted for it together is it not? This would include senator Clinton.
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dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #6
43. It's about the judgement...
of the "single senator" who voted "YES" who now seeks to be president. She knew exactly what she was doing, and why.

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Yossariant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #6
46. I agree that it's a cheap shot. Most Democratic Senators voted for the IWR, including .
our last nominee.

Bush said he had the authority, with or without a vote from Congress.

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Terry_M Donating Member (559 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #46
59. Doesn't matter what he said
he didn't in fact have the authority. And if he went forward with that vote having failed, it would have been the responsibility of the senate to filibuster anything and everything (especially any military funding at all) until he resigned or got impeached.
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indimuse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. 2 F*CKING SHAY!!!
:)
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #3
32. Agree, and we'll never get out of Iraq w/ inexperienced candidates
who are vague on details and easily swayed by those who would stay in the ME.

Its going to take an incredibly strong candidate to take over the helm after Bush and fight to regain control of the US military industrial complex.

Barack Obama isn't up to the job, nothing personal, but he's too inexperienced.

Clinton is much better suited to handle the Iraq situation.
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pathansen Donating Member (696 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
48. Yes, Edwards, Biden, Dobbs, Kerry voted for the same bill
And Obama was not able to vote since he was not a U.S. Senator so How do we know for sure how he would have voted if he was subjected to the same lies, pressure, propaganda, etc.
So why is everyone picking on Hillary?
Bush would have found another excuse to go to war anyway. He was extremely determined.
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dansolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
49. No one is saying that
Bush would have gone to war whether Hillary voted for it or not. The problem is that Hillary voted in favor of military action against Iraq, no matter how she and her supporters want to spin it. She could have voted against it, but chose not to. If she really was concerned that Bush was set on going to war, then she would have voted against giving him the authority. Either Hillary was unable to recognize that Bush was just looking for political cover in order to justify doing what he was already set on doing, or she voted for purely political reasons. If the former, than she is foolish, and the later, than she is a hack.
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
5. War creates real human suffering
You wouldn't know it if you talked to many of our politicians, especially the corporate ones. Just a stepping stone in their career.

And unlike the poster above, I do blame Clinton....both of them. One for voting for the war and the other for giving * cover on national TV when we were "debating" the issue (anyone remember when Bill said that if Bush invades, it's all perfectly legal?). Ever since she has refused to apologize and promises to keep us there until after another presidential term. That sounds blame-worthy to me.

Oh...and her DLC political allies helped create the PNAC document (Will Mashall and Co.), the ideological basis for this bullshit war.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #5
20. The poster above is on Ignore
but there are a lot around here who have their eyes squeezed shut when it comes to hilary's political expediency. hilary is my senator and we all begged her to vote NO on the IWR but those presidential stars in eyes were too powerful and these Soldiers' stories are the result.

And her attack dog bill supported the bushite war on Iraq too..I don't care how much he fucking lies about it.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
8. Public officials must be held responsible for their disastrous actions in office
I am sorry for your family's pain.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
9. so sorry to hear such horrific
Edited on Sun Feb-10-08 11:13 AM by Carolina
news and my heart goes out to you and yours.

That's why I totally agree with you: VOTES have consequences.

Iraq was never an imminent threat and trusting Bush was utter stupidity given his Texas track record and the evidence (theft 2000) that he and his minions would do anything (lie, cheat, steal) for power and money.

To those who say Bush would have gone to war without the IWR, I say fine... then it would have been solely on him. But perhaps without so many cave-in Dems hedging their political bets and giving Bush political, bipartisan support and power, it would have been harder to wreak havoc on that innocent nation and on the lives of so many of our servicemen and women.
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aquarius dawning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
10. I would like to ask Obama how he would have voted on the IWR if 3,000+ Chicagoans died in the Sears
tower after radical terrorists flew passenger jets full of people into it and brought it to the ground. I can't help but think that if he had had to watch members of his constituency jumping out the top floor windows to avoid being burned alive, we might not be hearing so much about his "sound judgement". Then again, knowing what I know about Chicagoans, I'm sure they wouldn't have been writing their representatives any letters about something like that.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. And Iraq had what exactly to do with 9/11?
Oh that's right, NOTHING.
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aquarius dawning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #11
19. that pretty much avoids the point though. I know that's the standard response
but let's be realistic, how do you think Chicagoans would have reacted to such a scenario? Do you think they would have been writing him letters telling him to be a dove? I don't. I think his constituency would have told him in no uncertain terms that a dovish stance would be inappropriate considering the circumstances. A senator listens to his or her constituency. That's why we elect them, right? Hillary had to answer to her constituency, not you, not me, and not Barack Obama and I'm convinced Barack Obama would have done the same thing. He is just blessed with the good fortune of not having had to make such a decision.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. That's not avoiding the point, that is the point. She should have told her constituents
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aquarius dawning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. Easy to say in retrospect, isn't it? It's as easy as telling ...a fairy tale.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. It would have taken guts to say back then. Guts that Hillary doesn't and never will have.
Edited on Sun Feb-10-08 11:45 AM by JVS
Now I'm putting you on ignore because I suspect you are a troll
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aquarius dawning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #27
33. It would take gus for BO to admit that he would have had to cast the same vote
if he were in the same position and I'm not a troll, I'm just defending my candidate whom I'm quite fond of. There's no need to be childish about this but if that's what you wish to do, then go right ahead. I stand by my argument.
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #33
37. I don't think Obama would have cast the same vote as Hillary had he been there.
Other congress people found it within themselves to vote against the IWR. Given his public statements at the time, I don't think he would have been inclined to vote for it. No one HAD to vote for that ill-conceived bill.
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never_get_over_it Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #37
51. Well he has done NOTHING to indicate that he would have done differently
and he has done MORE to indicate that he would have done the same as Kerry, Clinton, Edwards, Biden and Dodd - and for the same reason - future political ambition.

He took his anti-war speech off his website when the war was "popular" that took courage now didn't
He has not been particularly vocal against the war since he has been in the Senate
He has voted the SAME as Hillary to continue funding this mess
AND FINALLY very telling he didn't have the balls to vote one way or the other on the Kyl LIEberman Iran amendment - Clinton, Biden and Dodd - all running for President at the time managed to vote and Obama didn't bother to show up and that DEEPLY troubles me

You think he would have voted NO - I think he would have voted YES - truth is we will NEVER EVER know for sure - so we should compare apples to apples which is both their actions while both Senators.

We have to face it neither one of these candidates are "clean" when it comes to Iraq - and it is unfair to portray Obama so much better when in truth he just isn't....

and to the OP I am terribly sorry for your tragedy....

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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #33
41. NO- If Obama had been WRONG on Iraq- If the war had been
the success that many people secretly believed it would have been- then his stand against going in, his words of caution and statements laying out why he was FERVENTLY against war with Iraq, would have killed any hope he had of a presidential run for a very long time.

Your argument that having been someone who lived through 9/11 in NYC gives you some particular insight into why the elected officials of this country were justified in abandoning their promise to represent those who elected them, to defend their responding like sheep to the slaughter, for fear of being labeled "unpatriotic" if they had the guts to take a courageous stand is not only a tired overused talking point- it a self-centered myopic one.

That pre-emptive attack against a soverign nation- against the will of the majority of the American people- the advice of many other nations, has made this world LESS secure, and increased the probability of future terrorism. Even Cheeney himself admits this.

Defending your candidate is fine- but don't expect to sweep the not so pretty past under the rug. When 'experience' is used as one of their major positives, you cannot ignore the negative past experiences and decisions and pick only the positive ones.


peace~
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #25
30. Read this:
"I stand before you as someone who is not opposed to war in all circumstances. The Civil War was one of the bloodiest in history, and yet it was only through the crucible of the sword, the sacrifice of multitudes, that we could begin to perfect this union and drive the scourge of slavery from our soil.

I don't oppose all wars. My grandfather signed up for a war the day after Pearl Harbor was bombed, fought in Patton's army. He fought in the name of a larger freedom, part of that arsenal of democracy that triumphed over evil.

I don't oppose all wars. After September 11, after witnessing the carnage and destruction, the dust and the tears, I supported this administration's pledge to hunt down and root out those who would slaughter innocents in the name of intolerance, and I would willingly take up arms myself to prevent such tragedy from happening again.

I don't oppose all wars. What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz and other armchair, weekend warriors in this administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne.

What I am opposed to is the attempt by political hacks like Karl Rove to distract us from a rise in the uninsured, a rise in the poverty rate, a drop in the median income, to distract us from corporate scandals and a stock market that has just gone through the worst month since the Great Depression.

That's what I'm opposed to. A dumb war. A rash war. A war based not on reason but on passion, not on principle but on politics.

Now let me be clear: I suffer no illusions about Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal man. A ruthless man. A man who butchers his own people to secure his own power.... The world, and the Iraqi people, would be better off without him.

But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors...and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history.

I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a U.S. occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences.

I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of al-Qaeda.

I am not opposed to all wars. I'm opposed to dumb wars. So for those of us who seek a more just and secure world for our children, let us send a clear message to the president.

You want a fight, President Bush? Let's finish the fight with Bin Laden and al-Qaeda, through effective, coordinated intelligence, and a shutting down of the financial networks that support terrorism, and a homeland security program that involves more than color-coded warnings.

You want a fight, President Bush? Let's fight to make sure that...we vigorously enforce a nonproliferation treaty, and that former enemies and current allies like Russia safeguard and ultimately eliminate their stores of nuclear material, and that nations like Pakistan and India never use the terrible weapons already in their possession, and that the arms merchants in our own country stop feeding the countless wars that rage across the globe.

You want a fight, President Bush? Let's fight to make sure our so-called allies in the Middle East, the Saudis and the Egyptians, stop oppressing their own people, and suppressing dissent, and tolerating corruption and inequality, and mismanaging their economies so that their youth grow up without education, without prospects, without hope, the ready recruits of terrorist cells.

You want a fight, President Bush? Let's fight to wean ourselves off Middle East oil through an energy policy that doesn't simply serve the interests of Exxon and Mobil.

Those are the battles that we need to fight. Those are the battles that we willingly join. The battles against ignorance and intolerance. Corruption and greed. Poverty and despair."

http://usliberals.about.com/od/extraordinaryspeeches/a/Obama2002War.htm
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Yossariant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #30
44. And this:
Edited on Sun Feb-10-08 12:39 PM by Yossariant
Today we are asked whether to give the President of the United States authority to use force in Iraq should diplomatic efforts fail to dismantle Saddam Hussein's chemical and biological weapons and his nuclear program.

I am honored to represent nearly 19 million New Yorkers, a thoughtful democracy of voices and opinions who make themselves heard on the great issues of our day especially this one. Many have contacted my office about this resolution, both in support of and in opposition to it, and I am grateful to all who have expressed an opinion.

I also greatly respect the differing opinions within this body. The debate they engender will aid our search for a wise, effective policy. Therefore, on no account should dissent be discouraged or disparaged. It is central to our freedom and to our progress, for on more than one occasion, history has proven our great dissenters to be right.

Now, I believe the facts that have brought us to this fateful vote are not in doubt. Saddam Hussein is a tyrant who has tortured and killed his own people, even his own family members, to maintain his iron grip on power. He used chemical weapons on Iraqi Kurds and on Iranians, killing over 20 thousand people. Unfortunately, during the 1980's, while he
engaged in such horrific activity, he enjoyed the support of the American government, because he had oil and was seen as a counterweight to the Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran.

In 1991, Saddam Hussein invaded and occupied Kuwait, losing the support of the United States. The first President Bush assembled a global coalition, including many Arab states, and threw Saddam out after forty-three days of bombing and a hundred hours of ground operations. The U.S.-led coalition then withdrew, leaving the Kurds and the Shiites, who had risen against Saddam Hussein at our urging, to Saddam's revenge.

As a condition for ending the conflict, the United Nations imposed a number of requirements on Iraq, among them disarmament of all weapons of mass destruction, stocks used to make such weapons, and laboratories necessary to do the work. Saddam Hussein agreed, and an inspection system was set up to ensure compliance. And though he repeatedly lied, delayed, and obstructed the inspections work, the inspectors found and destroyed far more weapons of mass destruction capability than were destroyed in the Gulf War, including thousands of chemical weapons, large volumes of chemical and biological stocks, a number of missiles and warheads, a major lab equipped to produce anthrax and other bio-weapons, as well as substantial nuclear facilities.

In 1998, Saddam Hussein pressured the United Nations to lift the sanctions by threatening to stop all cooperation with the inspectors. In an attempt to resolve the situation, the UN, unwisely in my view, agreed to put limits on inspections of designated "sovereign sites" including the so-called presidential palaces, which in reality were huge compounds well suited to hold weapons labs, stocks, and records which Saddam Hussein was required by UN resolution to turn over. When Saddam blocked the inspection process, the inspectors left. As a result, President Clinton, with the British and others, ordered an intensive four-day air assault, Operation Desert Fox, on known and suspected weapons of mass destruction sites and other military targets.

In 1998, the United States also changed its underlying policy toward Iraq from containment to regime change and began to examine options to effect such a change, including support for Iraqi opposition leaders within the country and abroad.

In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001.

It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security.

Now this much is undisputed. The open questions are: what should we do about it? How, when, and with whom?

Some people favor attacking Saddam Hussein now, with any allies we can muster, in the belief that one more round of weapons inspections would not produce the required disarmament, and that deposing Saddam would be a positive good for the Iraqi people and would create the possibility of a secular democratic state in the Middle East, one which could perhaps move the entire region toward democratic reform.

This view has appeal to some, because it would assure disarmament; because it would right old wrongs after our abandonment of the Shiites and Kurds in 1991, and our support for Saddam Hussein in the 1980's when he was using chemical weapons and terrorizing his people; and because it would give the Iraqi people a chance to build a future in freedom.

However, this course is fraught with danger. We and our NATO allies did not depose Mr. Milosevic, who was responsible for more than a quarter of a million people being killed in the 1990s. Instead, by stopping his aggression in Bosnia and Kosovo, and keeping on the tough sanctions, we created the conditions in which his own people threw him out and led to his being in the dock being tried for war crimes as we speak.

If we were to attack Iraq now, alone or with few allies, it would set a precedent that could come back to haunt us. In recent days, Russia has talked of an invasion of Georgia to attack Chechen rebels. India has mentioned the possibility of a pre-emptive strike on Pakistan. And what if China were to perceive a threat from Taiwan?

So Mr. President, for all its appeal, a unilateral attack, while it cannot be ruled out, on the present facts is not a good option.

Others argue that we should work through the United Nations and should only resort to force if and when the United Nations Security Council approves it. This too has great appeal for different reasons. The UN deserves our support. Whenever possible we should work through it and strengthen it, for it enables the world to share the risks and burdens of global security and when it acts, it confers a legitimacy that increases the likelihood of long-term success. The UN can help lead the world into a new era of global cooperation and the United States should support that goal.

But there are problems with this approach as well. The United Nations is an organization that is still growing and maturing. It often lacks the cohesion to enforce its own mandates. And when Security Council members use the veto, on occasion, for reasons of narrow-minded interests, it cannot act. In Kosovo, the Russians did not approve NATO military action because of political, ethnic, and religious ties to the Serbs. The United States therefore could not obtain a Security Council resolution in favor of the action necessary to stop the dislocation and ethnic cleansing of more than a million Kosovar Albanians. However, most of the world was with us because there was a genuine emergency with thousands dead and a million driven from their homes. As soon as the American-led conflict was over, Russia joined the peacekeeping effort that is still underway.

In the case of Iraq, recent comments indicate that one or two Security Council members might never approve force against Saddam Hussein until he has actually used chemical, biological, or God forbid, nuclear weapons.

So, Mr. President, the question is how do we do our best to both defuse the real threat that Saddam Hussein poses to his people, to the region, including Israel, to the United States, to the world, and at the same time, work to maximize our international support and strengthen the United Nations?

While there is no perfect approach to this thorny dilemma, and while people of good faith and high intelligence can reach diametrically opposed conclusions, I believe the best course is to go to the UN for a strong resolution that scraps the 1998 restrictions on inspections and calls for complete, unlimited inspections with cooperation expected and demanded from Iraq.I know that the Administration wants more, including an explicit authorization to use force, but we may not be able to secure that now, perhaps even later. But if we get a clear requirement for unfettered inspections, I believe the authority to use force to enforce that mandate is inherent in the original 1991 UN resolution, as President Clinton recognized when he launched Operation Desert Fox in 1998.

If we get the resolution and Saddam does not comply, then we can attack him with far more support and legitimacy than we would have otherwise.

If we try and fail to get a resolution that simply, but forcefully, calls for Saddam's compliance with unlimited inspections, those who oppose even that will be in an indefensible position. And, we will still have more support and legitimacy than if we insist now on a resolution that includes authorizing military action and other requirements giving some nations superficially legitimate reasons to oppose any Security Council action. They will say we never wanted a resolution at all and that we only support the United Nations when it does exactly what we want.

I believe international support and legitimacy are crucial. After shots are fired and bombs are dropped, not all consequences are predictable. While the military outcome is not in doubt, should we put troops on the ground, there is still the matter of Saddam Hussein's biological and chemical weapons. Today he has maximum incentive not to use them or give them away. If he did either, the world would demand his immediate removal. Once the battle is joined, however, with the outcome certain, he will have maximum incentive to use weapons of mass destruction and to give what he can't use to terrorists who can torment us with them long after he is gone. We cannot be paralyzed by this possibility, but we would be foolish to ignore it. And according to recent reports, the CIA agrees with this analysis. A world united in sharing the risk at least would make this occurrence less likely and more bearable and would be far more likely to share with us the considerable burden of rebuilding a secure and peaceful post-Saddam Iraq.

President Bush's speech in Cincinnati and the changes in policy that have come forth since the Administration began broaching this issue some weeks ago have made my vote easier. Even though the resolution before the Senate is not as strong as I would like in requiring the diplomatic route first and placing highest priority on a simple, clear requirement for unlimited inspections, I will take the President at his word that he will try hard to pass a UN resolution and will seek to avoid war, if at all possible.

Because bipartisan support for this resolution makes success in the United Nations more likely, and therefore, war less likely, and because a good faith effort by the United States, even if it fails, will bring more allies and legitimacy to our cause, I have concluded, after careful and serious consideration, that a vote for the resolution best serves the security of our nation. If we were to defeat this resolution or pass it with only a few Democrats, I am concerned that those who want to pretend this problem will go way with delay will oppose any UN resolution calling for unrestricted inspections.

This is a very difficult vote. This is probably the hardest decision I have ever had to make -- any vote that may lead to war should be hard -- but I cast it with conviction.

And perhaps my decision is influenced by my eight years of experience on the other end of Pennsylvania Avenue in the White House watching my husband deal with serious challenges to our nation. I want this President, or any future President, to be in the strongest possible position to lead our country in the United Nations or in war. Secondly, I want to insure that Saddam Hussein makes no mistake about our national unity and for our support for the President's efforts to wage America's war against terrorists and weapons of mass destruction. And thirdly, I want the men and women in our Armed Forces to know that if they should be called upon to act against Iraq, our country will stand resolutely behind them.

My vote is not, however, a vote for any new doctrine of pre-emption, or for uni-lateralism, or for the arrogance of American power or purpose -- all of which carry grave dangers for our nation, for the rule of international law and for the peace and security of people throughout the world.

Over eleven years have passed since the UN called on Saddam Hussein to rid himself of weapons of mass destruction as a condition of returning to the world community. Time and time again he has frustrated and denied these conditions. This matter cannot be left hanging forever with consequences we would all live to regret. War can yet be avoided, but our responsibility to global security and to the integrity of United Nations resolutions protecting it cannot. I urge the President to spare no effort to secure a clear, unambiguous demand by the United Nations for unlimited inspections.

And finally, on another personal note, I come to this decision from the perspective of a Senator from New York who has seen all too closely the consequences of last year's terrible attacks on our nation. In balancing the risks of action versus inaction, I think New Yorkers who have gone through the fires of hell may be more attuned to the risk of not acting. I know that I am.

So it is with conviction that I support this resolution as being in the best interests of our nation. A vote for it is not a vote to rush to war; it is a vote that puts awesome responsibility in the hands of our President and we say to him - use these powers wisely and as a last resort. And it is a vote that says clearly to Saddam Hussein - this is your last chance - disarm or be disarmed.

Thank you, Mr. President.
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. And she still trusted him and didn't even read the NIE. NT
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #10
18. I'm a New Yorker. I live one mile from Ground Zero. I saw those towers
drop first hand. For many months afterwards, I could smell the smoke from the site.

AND IRAQ HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11!
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aquarius dawning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. again, that avoids the point entirely.
At the time, things were different for a great many Americans and you know it. Today, it's a political football. Yesterday, a hell of a lot of Americans were hurt, scared, pissed, and ready to kick someone's ass. Americans supported war at that time even if you didn't and I stand by original post about this. BO would have voted Aye if it were the Sears tower that went down.
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #22
28. Staying in Afghanistan is the correct thing to do. Attacking a country that had
nothing to do with 9/11 is just plain dumb. "A great many Americans" are not that stupid.
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aquarius dawning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #28
38. "A great many Americans" are not that stupid.
I wasn't born yesterday. I remember the days following 9-11 very well as I was in the military at the time and got thrown right into the mess. And, at the time, I told my fellow soldiers that Iraq was a mistake. They weren't listening and my candor and John Kerry's candor were not well received to say the least. America supported the war at the time. Only when the facts became more and more apparent did sentiment turn sour. I'm done arguing about this. I'm not trying to piss you or anyone else off. have the last word if you wish.
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. Are you aware that 23 Senators voted AGAINST the IWR? 22 Democrats and
one brave Republican?

This is from the brave Republican:

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/01/31/chafee-bashes-gop-and-dems-who-voted-for-iraq-war/

In his upcoming memoir, titled Against the Tide: How a Compliant Congress Empowered a Reckless President, former Rhode Island senator Lincoln Chafee (R) “excoriates Bush and his GOP allies” for exploiting “wedge issues,” but also “saves some of his harshest words for Democrats who paved the way for Mr. Bush to use the U.S. military to invade Iraq”:

chafeeee.jpg Chafee was the only Republican senator to vote against prosecuting the war. “The top Democrats were at their weakest when trying to show how tough they were,” writes Chafee. “They were afraid that Republicans would label them soft in the post-September 11 world, and when they acted in political self-interest, they helped the president send thousands of Americans and uncounted innocent Iraqis to their doom.

“Instead of talking tough or meekly raising one’s hand to support the tough talk, it is far more muscular, I think, to find out what is really happening in the world and have a debate about what we really need to accomplish,” writes Chafee. “That is the hard work of governing, but it was swept aside once the fear, the war rhetoric and the political conniving took over.”

Here's the vote:

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=2&vote=00237
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aquarius dawning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #42
54. How many of them represented the families of the dead?
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #38
53. 56% of Americans opposed the Iraq War-Feb '03 (56% NYT; other polls 54-55%)
Eve of the war. After Colin Powell's line of bull to the UN. So, if 56% of the American people could figure it out, why not Hillary Clinton, or the other Senators who voted for it?

56% is a significant majority. It went down a bit during the invasion months, with U.S. troops at max risk, and then started its climb up to a whopping 70% anti-Iraq War majority today.

Most Americans did not support the invasion of Iraq! And only people who watch too much corporate "news" and don't happen to flip to page 47 of the NYT (or page nowhere in most other papers), believe that the majority did.
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DisgustipatedinCA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #22
34. Are you this goddamned dense?
Would New Yorkers, united behind Hillary, have agreed to an SWR (Switzerland War Resolution) because the WTC was attacked by someone across the ocean, and we were confused, and someone needed to pay dearly? Why Iraq? Why not Switzerland? As soon as you can come up with a viable answer to this question, you'll have secured some credibility. Until then, you're an apologist for a war monger.
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aquarius dawning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #18
24. double post
Edited on Sun Feb-10-08 11:39 AM by aquarius dawning
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davsand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #10
35. Durbin voted no. Do you want to chat with him too?
Wellstone voted no also.

Situational ethics are maybe part of life, but not when it comes to life and death. Revenge is a terrible foundation for foreign policy and I'm willing to bet that most military families will agree with me on that.

Many on DU were talking about the fact that Iraq was not to blame for 9/11, and there were still debates with a few who were ok with it. It is only in hindsight that we realize just how big a tragedy that vote was-but the fact remains that it was the wrong vote to make.

Straw men aside, the ones who voted for this war need to be held accountable--period. No matter the office they are running for, they need to be held accountable by the voters for the misery and death that ONE vote has caused. Seems to me there are a lot of people bleeding and weeping because of that ONE vote, and I think we need to be talking about it no matter WHO it was that supported it.


Laura
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aquarius dawning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #35
55. And Durbin is from Illinois too. Would he have voted no if the Sears tower fell instead of the WTC?
It's a question that will never be answered but many of us have our suspicions.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #10
52. Hey, we were all New Yorkers that day! You need to calm down, friend.
Strong, even contentious, political debate is okay. What you just said is not okay.

And what had Iraq to do with 9/11? Absolutely nothing. Iraq has to do with OIL, and stoking up monstrous military budgets.

Our country is now hated throughout the world--where, just after 9/11, whole countries were saying, and even some Islamic countries were saying, "We are all Americans today!" That is what the Iraq War accomplished--the enmity of the world, most of which knew that Iraq had nothing to do with that attack, even if our U.S. Senators didn't know (or pretended not to know), and even if many Americans bought that line of bull. But I'll tell you, and it is the most forgotten fact of the buildup to the war: 56% of the American people opposed the Iraq War from the beginning, in Feb 03. (56% NYT; other polls 54-55%). That is a significant majority. It would be a landslide in a presidential election (and believe me, it was). 56% of Americans didn't believe the bushit. And even if they sort of thought there could be something to it--Iraq WMDs, Iraq 9/11--they considered it to be a minor threat, not worth a war.

That majority has now grown to a whopping 70% of Americans opposed to the Iraq war. And the war still has nothing to do with 9/11. In fact, it has vastly weakened our ability to deal with the "terrorist" threat in every possible way--from bankrupting our treasuries for a corporate resource war, to neglect and malfeasance on all infrastructure and security measures, to the main bulwark against "terrorism" and all enemies: a strong, healthy, well-educated population, with an optimistic attitude about our ability to solve real problems like global warming and poverty, a thriving democracy with elections that everybody can trust, and a vibrant economy, without this dead weight of military expenditure for aggressive war.

We are much less safe today in every conceivable way--because of the war on Iraq. And now we have to live with the fact of what was done in our name, and try to recover some hope for the future, and for our democracy.

There is no evidence of any connection between anyone's opinion of Hillary Clinton as a potential president, and feelings about New York or 9/11. What kind of myth are you spinning for yourself? The Iraq War and 9/11 are separate issues--except to Bushites who artificially pull them together.

By myth, I mean unreasonable. We are supposed to translate our sympathy for New Yorkers, as the chief victims of the 9/11 attack (there was also Washington DC--the Pentagon, where 150 or so military personnel died) into voting for Clinton because she's New York's Senator? We could as well decide that she is trying to exploit that tragedy--and vote against her because of it--if that is her argument, which I have never heard her or any of her supporters say. Where did you get such an idea?

And even if you think it, it is not civil to say it. It is extremely divisive and unfair. As a citizen of neither city, and neither state, I cry foul. Why are you trying to stoke war among Democrats, with an out-of-line, unreasonable, foul remark like that?

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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #10
58. Charlie Rangel had no problem voting NAY on the IWR
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
12. K&R
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MGKrebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
13. The IWR vote was diplomacy. It worked.
Tuesday evening it was revealed that Saddam Hussein had offered to go peacefully into exile just one month before the invasion of Iraq for a staggering $1 billion. The offer was revealed in a transcript of talks from February 2003 between George Bush and the then Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Azna at the President's ranch in Texas.


http://www.clevelandleader.com/node/3178

Our diplomatic efforts handed George Bush everything a sane man could possibly want, and he went to war anyway.

We the people are more to blame for allowing him to be elected than any one Senator is.
So many say they "knew" he would go to war. Well if we "KNEW" he was crazy enough to turn down Saddam's exile, then we damn sure should have done more to prevent this fiasco. But of course, we didn't really "know" how crazy he was until after the fact.
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
14. Oh God, Skidmore, I'm so sorry.
Treatment of Veterans is such a huge issue for me. We really need to start understanding that we are indebted to them for their entire lives. This is a cost of war that nobody seems to consider. But we have to. And, if we did, I doubt we'd ever go to war again.

I enjoy working with Veterans. It breaks my heart to see how their experiences have shattered them and that our government couldn't care less. It's criminal.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
15. I'm so sorry this had to happen..it's
a miracle if the victims of the Iraqi violence and the Soldiers who were deployed in bush's war on Iraq can come out of this without any deep scars. So many around the world knew what would happen if Congress supported the rapid frenzy of the bushites on this political move that was karl rove. Others, since, have apologized and said it was a big mistake..not hilary. She was all gung ho on the vile kyl lieman bill.
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AGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:38 AM
Original message
this explains why you dont want to vote for hillary and Obama.
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AGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
23. this explains why you dont want to vote for hillary and Obama.
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. I don't want to vote for Hillary, for this reason and several others...
but mostly for this reason. I don't want her to "stand on a stage with John McCain and talk about national security." At the time when she could have taken a principled and intelligent stand on national security, she chose political expediency instead. She repeated that misjudgment with Kyl-Lieberman.
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AGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. its because of Obama and his votes to continue to fund the war that people are dead.
Edited on Sun Feb-10-08 11:50 AM by AGirl
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #31
36. And tell me again about the towering example of moral superiority that Hillary was
when she too voted to cut funds to supply troops in the war she voted to start. Did I miss that part?
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AGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. than don't vote for obama OR hillary if its so fucking wrong. lol. geez
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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-11-08 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #31
60. guess what
only the president can remove troops from Iraq.

Do you want soldiers stuck in Iraq to go without food, or body armor?

If I were stuck there, I'd want to be as funded as possible while my leaders were working hard to get me home.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
29. As Edwards supporters said: "At least he changed in the right direction"
when I was posting I didn't trust him. Can Obama supporters say the same? His first speech in the senate was: "Let's not look at how the war got started"
And his subsequent votes were no different than Hillary.
So, what you do when you can make a difference does count too.
At this point I choose to trust them both to end the war if elected.
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democrank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
40. I`m so very sorry, Skidmore.
My heart is broken over this war.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
50. What awful news!
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
56. Tragic and you have my most sincere condolences.
Much evil has emanated from the IWR, a vote that should not be rewarded.
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nomorewhopper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-10-08 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
57. Hillary's IWR vote = MORE OF THE SAME
I can't say why Hillary voted for the war. My guess is that she felt she had to, especially with her presidential aspirations, move towards the center and appeal to the country's (then) desire for action against Iraq. I honestly don't believe that she ever wanted to go to war, yet she voted for the war, because she felt she should betray her ideals in order to pander to the right.

This is just more of the same, politics at all costs type of governance that we need to end in Washington.

I am so saddened to hear about the OP's story. I truly believe that some war and conflict in life in inevitable, yet I also am horrified to live in a country where it is my country that is starting the wars.

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