Clinton supporters: Why do you look past her war vote?

[mudesi]

It's not a lie or a smear or playing dirty politics when we anti-clinton people bring up the legitimate fact of Ms. Clinton's vote for the Iraq war and subsequent refusal to accept any sort of responsibility whatsoever.

Before I go on, I want to make clear that I am not, nor have I ever been an Obama supporter. I say this because too many times I see replies to my threads/posts calling me an "Obamaniac" or something similar. I am strictly anti-Clinton, and I would have loved to see Kucinich or Edwards take the nomination. Now that that's over with....

Why do Clinton supporters either forgive, forget, or refuse to acknowledge Ms. Clinton's cowardly and shameful vote to give George W. Bush authorization to murder over 1 million innocent people and almost 4000 American troops?

One standard answer: "Her vote wouldn't have made a difference". That's wrong. Her vote, along with all the other DINO votes, allowed Mr. Bush to proceed. Had there been true opposition by all the Democrats, including Clinton, it would've been a lot tougher for him to attack Iraq. Even if he did so anyway, at least Democrats could've pointed to their opposition after the fact.

But Democrats were afraid. They were afraid of looking unpatriotic. They were afraid that if Iraq turned out to be a glowing success, their opposition would look bad. They put their own political interests ahead of the lives of thousands of troops and millions of innocent people.

Clinton was among them.

I can only conclude that Clinton supporters are not voting for Clinton, but against Obama.

Why? I really want to know. What could Obama have possibly done worse than enabling the senseless murder of over one million people? Give me something he voted for, something he said, something he did, anything worse than Ms. Clinton's vote and her utter refusal to admit her mistake or take any responsibility.

This is why I hope against hope that Hillary Clinton does not get this nomination. (And if you're looking at things objectively, it's clear that she won't). Not because I like Obama, but because I have a completely legitimate reason to be against Clinton. Where is the legitimate reason to be against Obama that somehow surpasses Clinton's complicity in the war crimes of George W. Bush?

[neutron]

1. why did you look past Kerry's War Vote?

[neutron]

2. Obama Didn't Even Vote!

He wasn't in the Senate and said he did not know
HOW he would vote if he had been.

[Bobbieo]

14. Look Past Clinton's War Vote

Because if I would have been in her shoes, with Sept 11th and the presence of Sadam Hussein, I would have voted the same way she did at the time thinking it was a good idea - not kmowing what was to ensue.

She made the mistake I would have made. It is as simple as that!!!!! Why don't you let it go?

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

26. Does Hillary's Blackwater connection bother anyone?

HRC's Blackwater Connection

The PR firm run by Mark Penn, Hillary Clinton's top strategist, has a new client: Blackwater. Burson and its subsidiaries, as I reported in a profile of ...
www.thenation.com/blogs/campaignmatters?pid=240313

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

45. Charges? Meanwhile the Great American Chicken Hawk

Deflection? The OP is about HIllary's pro war stance.

[rodeodance]

61. Obam WATERED-down a bill that affects peoples LIVES--Then he got $$ for his campaign

coffers!

So, much for him caring about our lives/health!

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

110. republican legislators watered down the bill

anyone who has shepherded legislation through a general assembly knows that no bill is immune
to amendments.

There were other legislators in Illinois.

Glad to see your other comment was deleted.

[susankh4]

69. Agreed.

And it is easy for Obama to smugly say "I disagreed about the war." He was not in the senate for the vote. He was not under the pressure they were. And... let's face it... his state wasn't the home of Ground Zero.

Hillary was, I am sure, faced with all kinds of considerations. Her own state had been attacked. And her very own constituants were demaning action.

If Barack had been there... he'd probably have voted "present."

[JTFrog]

89. Do you really think she didn't know she was voting for war?

Over a million dead bodies and you want to just let it go?

Here is what you're girl knew when she cast her vote for war:

http://www.commondreams.org/views07/0303-23.htm

See Hillary Run (from Her Husband's Past on Iraq)
by Scott Ritter

Senator Hillary Clinton wants to become President Hillary Clinton. "I'm in, and I'm in to win," she said, announcing her plans to run for the Democratic nomination for the 2008 Presidential election. Let there be no doubt that Hillary Clinton is about as slippery a species of politician that exists, one who has demonstrated an ability to morph facts into a nebulous blob which blurs the record and distorts the truth. While she has demonstrated this less than flattering ability on a number of issues, nowhere is it so blatant as when dealing with the issue of the ongoing war in Iraq and Hillary Clinton's vote in favor of this war.

This issue won't be resolved even if Hillary Clinton apologizes for her Iraq vote, as other politicians have done, blaming their decision on faulty intelligence on Iraq's WMD capabilities. This is because, like many other Washington politicians at the time, including those now running for president, she had been witness to lies about Iraq's weapons programs to justify attacks on that country by her husband President Bill Clinton and his administration.

"While there is no perfect approach to this thorny dilemma, and while people of good faith and high intelligence can reach diametrically opposed conclusions, I believe the best course is to go to the UN for a strong resolution that scraps the 1998 restrictions on inspections and calls for complete, unlimited inspections with cooperation expected and demanded from Iraq," Senator Clinton said at the time of her vote, in a carefully crafted speech designed to demonstrate her range of knowledge and ability to consider all options. "I know that the Administration wants more, including an explicit authorization to use force, but we may not be able to secure that now, perhaps even later. But if we get a clear requirement for unfettered inspections, I believe the authority to use force to enforce that mandate is inherent in the original 1991 UN resolution, as President Clinton recognized when he launched Operation Desert Fox in 1998."

Hillary would have done well to leave out that last part, the one where her husband, the former President of the United States, used military force as part of a 72-hour bombing campaign ostensibly deemed as a punitive strike in defense of disarmament, but in actuality proved to be a blatant attempt at regime change which used the hyped-up threat of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction as an excuse for action. Sound familiar? While many Americans today condemn the Bush administration for misleading them with false claims of unsubstantiated threats which resulted in the ongoing debacle we face today in Iraq (count Hillary among this crowd), few have reflected back on the day when the man from Hope, Arkansas sat in the Oval Office and initiated the policies of economic sanctions-based containment and regime change which President Bush later brought to fruition when he ordered the invasion of Iraq in March 2003.

[rodeodance]

23. but he projects that fact that he did. Not my kinda person I want in the WH

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

33. Barack Obama's Iraq Speech Oct 2002 at an anti-war rally in Chicago

From Barack Obama's Iraq Speech

BARACK OBAMA'S IRAQ SPEECH DELIVERED AT ANTI-WAR RALLY IN 2002

Delivered on 26 October 2002 at an anti-war rally in Chicago by Barack Obama, Illinois Senator.

"...So for those of us who seek a more just and secure world for our children, let us send a clear message to the president today. You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s finish the fight with Bin Laden and al-Qaeda, through effective, coordinated intelligence, and a shutting down of the financial networks that support terrorism, and a homeland security program that involves more than color-coded warnings.

You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s fight to make sure that the UN inspectors can do their work, and that we vigorously enforce a non-proliferation treaty, and that former enemies and current allies like Russia safeguard and ultimately eliminate their stores of nuclear material, and that nations like Pakistan and India never use the terrible weapons already in their possession, and that the arms merchants in our own country stop feeding the countless wars that rage across the globe.

You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s fight to make sure our so-called allies in the Middle East, the Saudis and the Egyptians, stop oppressing their own people, and suppressing dissent, and tolerating corruption and inequality, and mismanaging their economies so that their youth grow up without education, without prospects, without hope, the ready recruits of terrorist cells.

You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s fight to wean ourselves off Middle East oil, through an energy policy that doesn’t simply serve the interests of Exxon and Mobil."

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Barack_Obama's_Iraq_Speech

[niceypoo]

62. Yet he voted to fund it

For political reasons

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

112. he voted to fund the soldiers needs, Hillary is even enabling Bush for a war on Iran next

YOU JUST CAN'T GET AWAY FROM THE FACT THAT HILLARY IS PRO WAR.

[cd3dem]

117. BINGO!!!! BINGO!!!! BINGO!!!! BINGO!!!!

Why is Obama great for not being in the senate?

[mudesi]

3. I didn't

I was against Kerry in the primary. Dean was the best choice back then, alas the media once again controlled the outcome.

[niceypoo]

59. Dean was out within 2 weeks

[Catch22Dem]

8. You're assuming the OP was a Kerry supporter and ignoring the actual question (n/t)

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

24. laimstream media took out our choice of Dean

Because of the crapped up way the primaries were done in 2004, most people didn't have a choice,
Kerry was annointed the nominee before any of us could do anything.

That left us a choice between Bush or Kerry.

[The_Casual_Observer]

4. Without actually reading all your bullshit, you might say

that it is utterly irrelevant in the 2008 campaign, McCain voted for it & Obama has said on the record in 2004 that he "doesn't know how he would have voted for it".

[mudesi]

7. That is completely irrelevant

Obama has nothing to do with Clinton's actions.

Besides, you have a choice between someone who "doesn't know", and someone who did, and you choose the one who did. Why?

[The_Casual_Observer]

11. Your mind is made up, Hillary started the Iraq war, so go & vote

for Obama.

[Evergreen Emerald]

5. because I am not intellectually lazy. I see the vote for what it was

I read her speech, I saw the context of the time, and of the constant Clinton obstruction, I believe her when she discloses her purpose.

I don't believe that Obama should be judged on one speech. I choose to judge Obama on his actions. And I cannot understand how people can give him a free pass. He is dishonest. He says one thing and does the other, or nothing so he can later claim anything.

He backtracked after his speech, when it counted. He claims that he opposed the war, but did nothing.

Clinton is taking responsibility for her actions. Obama is running on a fairy tale.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

6. the same way we all looked past Kerry's in 04

[dailykoff]

13. Stop you're killing me.

What do you do for an encore?

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

113. maybe YOU overlooked Kerry's vote, and thats why you overlook Hillary's vote

but we have other options. This time our anti war candidate is still in the game!

And it aint Hillary the Chicken Hawk.

[maddiejoan]

9. Answer

I don't look past her vote.

Anything else I could write in this thread, I've already written a hundred times on DU.
I see no reason to respond yet another time, when I know it will be met with facile attempts at 'changing' my mind on this.

In brief, and against what is accepted as 'common wisdom' on DU --the IWR was not a vote to authorize the Invasion and subsequent occupation of Iraq.

George W. Bush is a War Criminal precisely BECAUSE he went against the actual wishes inherent in the IWR.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

50. bull biscuits - DUers don't accept that the vote for the Iraq war was not a vote for the Iraq war

thats presumptious and misleading.

You think that by telling us what we think we will fall in line?

[maddiejoan]

101. you have reading comprehension problems

I suggest you re-read what I wrote

[butterfly77]

10. I am not a one issue voter.,.

for one thing and I am considering the source of who gave her the info, and kept changing it ...

[AGirl]

12. it is a disgusting vote.

it is completely disgusting that she voted this way. I am not voting for Clinton, I am voting against Obama, I don't trust him and his style of getting voters are dangerous , some of his supporters are nasty, i don't want his movement. I am disgusted at how power hungry he is, and how much votes he missed in the U.S Senate.

[zanne]

15. Almost 4,000 Americans soldiers killed in Iraq.

Thanks, Hillary. I DON'T FORGIVE YOU.

[GarbagemanLB]

17. Dude! Why are you a one-issue voter?!?!

It's only tens of thousands of lives!

[zanne]

37. ROFL!

But I'm not a dude.

[rodeodance]

66. Obama WATERED-down a bill that affects peoples LIVES--Then he got $$ for his campaign

Obama WATERED-down a bill that affects peoples LIVES--Then he got $$ for his campaign

coffers!

So, much for him caring about our lives/health!

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

119. you posted this same comment up thread. answer: Republican lawmakers watered down the bill

are you going to keep posting the same comments over and over and over and hope no one notices?

[AtomicKitten]

16. That egregious vote should not be rewarded.

Do we condone unwarranted war, or not? No oops, no if I had known then; she didn't bother to read the NIE before voting to abdicate Congress' war-declaring powers to an idiot. Now is the time to throw down.

Gobama.

K&R

[navarth]

18. you're all going to have to look past all of Clinton's and Obama's faults...

if you don't want to have President Walnuts.

I'm just sayin'

Of the two we have, I'd rather have Obama, but if Clinton gets it then she has my vote. Let's not do too much damage to ourselves on the way there. That just helps the Repigs.

My 2 cents

[dailykoff]

19. Hilly could have been a leader but instead she chose to collaborate.

FOR SEVEN YEARS!!

[zanne]

39. She's always walked a tighrope...

I think she's about to fall. She doesn't have political courage. Going along to get along will only get you so far. It got her to the Senate, but it won't get her in the White House.

[dailykoff]

64. More like the low road.

If she'd led the charge against Bush-Cheney they would have gone down in '04 and Kerry would have been swept in. That's the only reason she didn't utter a peep, as far as I can tell.

[No Blood for Hubris]

97. Political courage like not being FOR universal health care?

You mean, that kind of political courage?

[No Blood for Hubris]

96. Naughty Hillary! Someone spank her, quick!

Forgive my jest.

Yes, really, you're so right, we would all have been better off if Rudy Giuliani had become the Senator from New York. She should just have slunk off in misery, and committed seppuku. Her behavior, remaining in the Senate, is shocking, shocking.

[Marie26]

20. Kerry, Dodd, Biden, Edwards, etc.

also all voted for the IWR & are all very good Senators. If you exclude anyone who did, you're almost forced to exclude every leading Democrat.

[zulchzulu]

22. Are any of them in the race now?

:shrug:

Nice diversion. But it was a foul.

How about those war votes?

[Marie26]

42. It's not a diversion

It's the reason. Biden, Edwards, Dodd all have a lot of great qualities & experience, and they all voted for the IWR. I haven't seen they or their supporters being slammed as much as Clinton for that. Kerry was the 2004 Dem. nominee & presumably enough Democrats "got over" his IWR vote to nominate him & vote for him in the general election.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

25. lets see, Edwards admits that was WRONG

but I admit that this is why Obama was my choice OVER Edwards, as much as I like Edwards
and his policies.

[No Blood for Hubris]

92. Hillary should have said she was sorry? Like Kerry? For it

before he was against it?

Yes, that would certainly be a wise choice.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

118. Edwards said he was wrong. Hillary won't admit the war is wrong ever. n/t

[zanne]

41. Obama spoke out against the war in 2002.

One leading Democrat has the courage of his convictions.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

51. Amen. OBAMA'S 2002 SPEECH AGAINST THE IRAQ WAR AT ANTI WAR RALLY

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Barack_Obama's_Iraq_Speech

[zanne]

54. Link not working. nt

[dailykoff]

55. Try this link:

Obama's Oct 2002 anti-war Iraq Speech

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Barack_Obama%27s_Iraq_Speech

[Freida5]

56. Fairy tale

[rodeodance]

67. so what--he was NOT voting--he was never put to the test-Hehas a history of voting PRESENT your know

[zanne]

122. HE SPOKE OUT AGAINST IT WHEN HE DIDN'T HAVE TO!

As compared to Hillary, who went along with the crowd so everybody would like her.

[Riley133]

74. He also said he was for preemptive strikes if necessary on 1/21/2008

during a debate. And if it was Chicago that was attacked in the same manner as New York on 9/11/2001, would he act the same or would he vote for the war based on the information provided to him by the President?

Something to consider. Unless they were both there side by side, I'm not sure it's fair to compare.

[Straight Shooter]

75. If Obama has the courage of his convictions ...

... why did he fail to show up to vote on Kyl/Lieberman? He didn't vote for, he didn't vote against. He would not commit on the record. This was a critical issue, in which it was decided whether or not to declare the Iranian Guard a terrorist organization. Other inflammatory language was taken out, some jingoist rhetoric, but people will be paying attention to this in the GE.

Yes, Hillary voted for it. She made a commitment on the record, and depending on the mood toward Iran in the GE, she will either have to defend her position or she will be given credence as being "tough on terror." (pardon that ridiculous phrase in our lexicon)

McCain did not vote.

[zanne]

123. Yawn. nt

[mudesi]

But the choice is between Clinton and Obama

One voted for the war, the other did not. Why choose Clinton?

I, of course, was all for Kucinich.

[Marie26]

49. OK

I wasn't meaning to inspire a barrage of Obama-supporter responses. Basically, for me it's like a scale - you put weight on either side until the balance tips to one side. Obama's opposition to the Iraq war was a big plus, but it was outweighed by Clinton's experience, support for women's issues, work w/legal aid, universal health care plan, in-depth knowledge of policy, etc.

[progressive_realist]

78. And none of them will ever get my primary vote.

Not in 2004. Not in 2008. Not in 2012. Not in ...

I will never cast a vote in the primaries for anyone who voted in favor of the IWR. The Democratic Party should have gotten the message loud and clear after 2006, when we swept elections across the nation almost entirely on the strength of the antiwar vote. But then the business-as-usual wing of the party tried to shove a war enabler down our throats again. No. No. No.

[No Blood for Hubris]

87. Are you missing Ralph Nader? I am. Gore was not good enough

for us, and neither is Hillary.

We'll just take our ball and bat and go home.

[zulchzulu]

21. Some people don't have a problem with someone voting for a trillion dollar war with a million dead

It's just on TV, right?

:sarcasm:

[splat]

27. It's about the future, dummy! Why don't you suspect your own infatuation?

[suston96]

28. What you "can only conclude" is dumb and therefore, meaningless.

The real perpetrator is George Bush who ignored Hillary Clinton's and others' caution to use this power only IF all diplomatic and other attempts failed and NOT preemptively.

He refused to pursue diplomatic attempts and then after a preemptive assault was found guilty of fabricating intelligence to pursue war.

But Bush isn't running for anything so by all means trash a Democratic candidate you do not support.

Did I say "dumb"? Worse than that: faithless and contemptible.

[Hatchling]

29. When it came down to two, I had to choose.

I went from Kucinich, to Biden, to Edwards, to voting for Clinton in the primary. I prefer her health plan, her plan for getting troops out of Iraq, her ideas on the economy and yes, her experience.

And if my candidate doesn't get the nomination but Obama does, I will vote for him. Unlike you, I won't be even a little bit responsible for letting the Repugnants retain the White House

But as a lesbian boomer on disability, I will certainly feel disenfranchised when I do.

[DemGa]

30. You base your conclusions on supposition

Supposition:

"They put their own political interests ahead of the lives of thousands of troops and millions of innocent people.

Clinton was among them."

Conclusion:

"I can only conclude that Clinton supporters are not voting for Clinton, but against Obama."

So vote for Obama--he wasn't there. That's the gist of your argument.

[backscatter712]

32. It's not just a vote, it's votes. Plural.

It starts with the IWR vote, which was disappointing enough, especially since she still, to this day, tries to defend that vote instead of apologizing for it.

On top of that, there are multiple Iraq war spending bills she voted for, when Congress could have cut off the funding and forced Bush to bring the troops home.

And the cherry on top is her vote for Kyl-Lieberman, which is utterly despicable. There is no excuse for that vote. She knew perfectly well at that point that Bush is a lying sack of shit, and that Kyl-Lieberman is a de-facto approval for military action in Iran.

[dailykoff]

44. Absolutely, and lots of red-meat speeches for her RW fans.

Everything on the table including torture, renditions and nukes.

[electron_blue]

34. Bcs to me, their stance on the war is identical. What has Obama (or Clinton)

done to end the war? I'm talking about actions.

When it comes to Iraq, they are both a draw. My decision between them is based on other issues.

[napi21]

35. I actually voted for Obama last Tues. but I don't hold the IWV against

Hillary. It was a very difficult decision for me to decide which candidate to vote for. I have positive & negative feeling for both of them. If Hillary is the Dem nominee, I wi;ll be very happy to support her and vote for her in Nov.

[HughMoran]

36. You're getting annoying

You can't stop being a one-note, so I'm putting you on ignore for a while.

[mudesi]

46. You know what else is annoying? Losing your son or daughter to an IED

Here's something else that's annoying: Being blown up by a precision missile. Losing both arms and legs. Having your face burned off.

"One note". Nice.

[dailykoff]

47. Er, time to talk about the sexism no one will talk about

for the tenth time today.

[No Blood for Hubris]

94. Yes? What's that, dear?

[No Blood for Hubris]

85. Uh, it's Bush's war, dear. Blame Bush.

Blaming Hillary is -- bizarre. Really.

[Moochy]

100. Only person to blame for HRC's IWR vote

is HRC.

[No Blood for Hubris]

105. If only you were as upset about the war and Bush as you are

about Hillary's vote, it might make sense.

But you are way out of proportion. It's bizarre.

[mudesi]

104. It's not bizarre at all

Bush started it, but Clinton -and others- enabled it. I don't know why Clinton should be given a pass. The very least she could've done is admit her mistake.

This is not about Bush. We all know Bush is a disaster. This is about the Democratic primary, and if we're given a choice between Clinton and Obama, I don't see why Clinton supporters continue to look past her vote.

[No Blood for Hubris]

106. You're mad at her because she never said she was sorry?

Please. That's a good reason to extend the Bushist fascist years.

[dogman]

38. Obama joined Clinton when he voted to confirm Rice.

At that point, they became equal on this matter in my opinion.

[557188]

40. Obama continues to fund the war

That is a vote in favor of the war.

[zanne]

43. BS. Nice spin, but no cigar.

The decision to supply the troops with the protection they need was the only right decision to make, AFTER Hillary voted with the other war hawks to invade Iraq in the first place. She can't get out of that vote now. She took the easy way out for her own political gain and it's backfiring on her, as it should. Payback's a bitch.

[557188]

57. Wow you believe that BS?

If you want to protect the troops you cut funding. Without funding they can't stay and thus you are protecting them by getting them out.

Simple and your spin is rather disgusting.

Both candidates are responsible for the war.

[sofeisty]

48. Not looking past but looking at it in CONTEXT

I'm not really for Hillary. I know I'm definitely not for Obama.

The vote was wrong. I agree. I was and remain vehemently antiwar. But at the time of that vote the nation was supporting the WOT WITHOUT question. The war was sold as a crucial step in the WOT and there were lies told to sell the war to the country.

Hillary represented a location that was directly impacted by 9/11 (and yes, I know Iraq had nothing to do with it) and as such she really had little choice to vote against a war that was presented as a means to an end in preventing such horror for the future. I believe she voted that way more for the people of NY and their sense of safety than she did actually wanting to go to war.

Had she not represented NY, PA, or DC then I think I would have a much harder time giving her a pass for the vote. But she represented a place that was ground zero and the sentiment at the time was that whatever needed to be done to prevent another 9/11 MUST be done.

Of course it was a load of bull then and remains so now. Still, the context of that vote MUST be considered when assessing how any of those who supported the war voted.

[dailykoff]

52. She had a choice. She could have called the lie a lie -- like Obama did

in his well-known speech. She didn't, and that's why Obama's a leader and she's a collaborator.

LINK: Obama's Oct 2002 anti-war Iraq Speech

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Barack_Obama%27s_Iraq_Speech

[sofeisty]

88. Easy to be against it when your politcal azz was not on the line...

wow, what a moral stand he took.

NOT.

The fact that he was antiwar when it didn't count means about as much as the fact that I was. It means NOTHING because he did not have to put his career on the line. It was easy for him and myself to be against it because we had nothing to lose.

I bet if 9/11 had happened in Chicago and not NY he'd voted just like Clinton.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rodeodance]

58. I am not a single issue person. It is important but so are other issues.

[Medusa]

60. Because they like living in denial?

Because they don't want to face facts?

[rodeodance]

68. Obama FUNDED the war--resulting is lost lives!---

[dailykoff]

70. Once the troops have been deployed they have to be supplied.

Dumb non-issue.

[susankh4]

71. Yes he did!

As soon as he *could* vote for the war, he did. Was it a flip-flop? Or would he have voted with Hillary the first time? We'll never know, will we?

[Hill_YesWeWill]

63. I'm not voting against Obama but for Hillary

On the war vote: I think it was a mistake, and I definately think she knows that, how could she not know that? But, think about it, she can't say that now, not after this amount of time, it's just too late for her to go back on that, it would make it an even bigger weakness.

A lot of people jumped on the bandwagon for war, don't you remember what happened to the dixie chicks for being anti-war? Clinton weighed the options at that time, and it looked better to her, politically, for her to vote that way, but I don't think that she thought seriously that she was abandoning the democratic party or principles by doing so. I think she was just biding her time until she had the oportunity to really speak her mind.

I honestly don't believe she is a warmonger, I do not believe she is a neocon, if I thought that was true I would not vote for her, I can gaurantee you that.

[Riley133]

65. Well....

Her state took the brunt of the attack and as such, she represented the constituents' desires. I have a friend in New York who last night told me "This is HILLARY country!" and refused to listen to anything else. Despite what you may read, those I know personally in NY really do like her for what she's done for them.

You can't assume how Obama would have voted - or that he won't use military force if he is elected to the White House. He did state during one of the debates that he believes in preemptive strikes if necessary.

[Straight Shooter]

72. For the same reason Obama supporters look past his vote to confirm Condi Rice.

""The problem here is that there will always be some uncertainty about how quickly he can acquire nuclear weapons. But we don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud."

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/01/10/wbr.smoking.gun/

"On May 16, 2002, Rice told reporters that there was no specific information in that 2001 briefing and that officials could not have imagined al-Qaeda was plotting suicide missions that involved flying planes into buildings."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-03-30-questions-usat_x.htm

Yes, Hillary voted to confirm Rice, also. But she doesn't campaign as an anti-war, anti-warmongerer candidate.

[dailykoff]

73. Stick to the subject.

:hi:

[Straight Shooter]

76. I answered the question honestly. Each side overlooks their candidate's questionable votes.

:hi:

[Moochy]

107. Yeah ever so equivalent .....

Give me a fucking break.

[Straight Shooter]

120. Obama didn't care enough to vote against Kyl/Lieberman.

Your candidate doesn't have the courage of his convictions. Keeping up with the news lately? Iran, Iran, Iran. The bush administration is preparing to shield the GOP against the anti-war rhetoric as we live and breathe in this very moment. The GOP is very happy with McCain's "bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran" video.

Obama will be painted not as "anti-war," but as "soft on terror." Now you can go ask the GOP for your break. They ain't gonna give it to you.

[Moochy]

121. Pragmatism is capitulation

Yay Fifth Column ! It's what keeps the BIG TENT up!

[JVS]

124. Magnitudes of importance. Learn about them

[No Blood for Hubris]

77. Get OVER it. Move ON. I'm FOR Hillary. Deal with it.

She's more progressive than Obama. Why have you not noticed that? An inconvenient truth?

I'm for universal health care. So is she. That's progressive.

Obama's health care proposal by comparison is wimpy and centrist. Why is that ok with you?

Why does Progressive (sic) Democrats of America admit that Obama is less progressive, and still back him? Answer: they're not really progressive. They're just Faux-Left Manichaean Naderites with a chip on their shoulder that just won't go away.

You wanna be pissed off at Hillary Clinton for that vote, go ahead. I was. I'm done.

If Clinton's single vote could have prevented the war, then, you'd be right -- she'd have blood on her hands. But it just wasn't that way, was it, buddy?

If you want revile someone who really has Iraq War blood on his hands -- besides Bush/Cheney and the Bushist fascists -- you need a real grudge to hold -- try Ralph Nader 2000.

What that single man did and didn't do got that charmer Bush in the White House.

No Bush, no war, no war, no war dead.

The Faux Left. Yikes.

[mudesi]

84. Her health care plan is not at all universal

Neither is Obama's. At least you're giving a reason, though.

Still, I don't think being against the war is anything resembling a "chip on my shoulder".

It's an excuse to say that because her vote wouldn't have made a difference that she doesn't have blood on her hands. She, and every other Democrat who voted for it have blood on their hands. Together, they could have stood up against it, but they didn't.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

86. Hillary's plan is structured so that it will cost 0 $ to make the transition to UHC ...........

she set up the infrastructure for UHC where as Obama's does NOT and even falls short of helping millions of the most needy

[No Blood for Hubris]

115. That's right. On health care alone, she is clearly superior.

But lots of so called liberals seem neither to notice nor care.

[No Blood for Hubris]

111. You need to liberalize your chosen objects of loathing, I think.

Bush needs to come first, then Cheney and Rummy. Then Nader. Then all the Republicans. Then the media and corporate interests. Religioius right. Dems. Naderites. Lieberman. Hillary is really way down the list, you see.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lastliberalintexas]

80. I support neither of the 2 remaining

If I vote for either, I will be overlooking quite a few major issues I have with each, the war vote, war funding and Kyl Lieberman among them.

I give Obama kudos for being right on the war from the beginning. But I also think that he has since learned how difficult being right in the Senate can be, as evidenced by certain of his votes. I think he even admitted that he can't say with certainty how he would have voted had he been in the Senate. The only one we knew would have voted the way we wanted was Dennis.

[No Blood for Hubris]

99. So you're a vote for McCain/Huckabee?

Or were you only referring to not voting in the primaries?

[AX10]

81. Why did everyone over look Kerry's war vote?

[LittleBlue]

82. False feminism > People dying in Iraq

Nevermind that killing women and their children in Iraq, and disrupting their ability to provide for their families, is totally anti-feminist.

[No Blood for Hubris]

93. In some universes topics like "feminism" and "war" are NOT

automatically conflated!

This is reflected by the use of two separate nouns!

Conflate not.

[LittleBlue]

98. Women's issues is feminist. Women in those countries

are disproportionately affected by war. It's impossible to separate the human rights of 3rd world women from feminism, imo. There are a lot of feminists who think nominating a woman is the feminist thing to do, no matter the woman.

[No Blood for Hubris]

102. Feminists are well aware that women are disproportionately

affected by many things. That's why they want things to change. (duh)

You are incorrect in assuming that feminists ipso facto want to vote for a female.

If that were true, I would be happy to vote for Condi Rice.

But I'd rather die.

Before you give advice about what feminists do, either become one yourself, or find out what you're talking about.

No feminist I know wants to do anything like what you're saying. You're barking up the wrong tree. Try a different one.

[LittleBlue]

108. You barked up my tree. It wasn't solicited on my part.

You're voting for someone who claims she didn't know a resolution calling for war against Iraq was a resolution for war. She also thinks Iraq was a mistake of execution, not a moral mistake.

What am I supposed to think of these feminists voting for Hillary? Are they this easily duped?

[No Blood for Hubris]

114. It's a metaphor, the tree thing.

I don't know what you are supposed to think. Why would you ask that?

Feminists voting for Hillary regard her as a candidate who is competent, thoughtful, and well-prepared. Someone who has the support of Wesley Clark (who I initially supported as President) and Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame.

Do you really think that Clark and Wilson and Plame are dupes?

Feminists supporting Hillary appreciate that her policies are more liberal than Obama's.

They also appreciate that she has been in the public eye and on the national and world stage for ever. She is seasoned, she is well-spoken, and has endured with dignity decades of the most spiteful abuse, abuse that would have crushed a lesser being.

She is smart. She is tough. She'll make a great President.

[LittleBlue]

116. She is smart, but her explanation of her IWR vote is beyond absurd

to anyone with a brain. I won't vote for people who think that the prols are some kind of sheep to be manipulated. The people you named are all connected to Hillary and the Clintons. They know her explanation is bullshit, just like you and I do.

[rug]

83. Because Obama would have done exactly the same thing.

Why? He hasn't ruled out preemptive military action against Iran.

The IWR was a political vote and Obama is, at least, as much a politician as Clinton.

[incapsulated]

91. Correct, and further

I don't see any evidence anyone out there in the real voting world considers this some litmus test, they don't care.

They want it ended, they don't care how it began, and many supported it themselves at first, so what do you gain acting like you are so very clever and they are so very stupid?

It really doesn't matter to me what I think or what DU thinks. I care what the voters in a GE think.

[Moochy]

109. "It really doesn't matter to me what I think"

Not to be flip, but it shows.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

90. Obama voted to fund the war..... They're both flawed.

n/t

[JTFrog]

95. She knew that she was casting a vote in favor of war.

http://www.commondreams.org/views07/0303-23.htm

See Hillary Run (from Her Husband's Past on Iraq)
by Scott Ritter

Senator Hillary Clinton wants to become President Hillary Clinton. "I'm in, and I'm in to win," she said, announcing her plans to run for the Democratic nomination for the 2008 Presidential election.

Let there be no doubt that Hillary Clinton is about as slippery a species of politician that exists, one who has demonstrated an ability to morph facts into a nebulous blob which blurs the record and distorts the truth. While she has demonstrated this less than flattering ability on a number of issues, nowhere is it so blatant as when dealing with the issue of the ongoing war in Iraq and Hillary Clinton's vote in favor of this war.

This issue won't be resolved even if Hillary Clinton apologizes for her Iraq vote, as other politicians have done, blaming their decision on faulty intelligence on Iraq's WMD capabilities. This is because, like many other Washington politicians at the time, including those now running for president, she had been witness to lies about Iraq's weapons programs to justify attacks on that country by her husband President Bill Clinton and his administration.

"While there is no perfect approach to this thorny dilemma, and while people of good faith and high intelligence can reach diametrically opposed conclusions, I believe the best course is to go to the UN for a strong resolution that scraps the 1998 restrictions on inspections and calls for complete, unlimited inspections with cooperation expected and demanded from Iraq," Senator Clinton said at the time of her vote, in a carefully crafted speech designed to demonstrate her range of knowledge and ability to consider all options. "I know that the Administration wants more, including an explicit authorization to use force, but we may not be able to secure that now, perhaps even later. But if we get a clear requirement for unfettered inspections, I believe the authority to use force to enforce that mandate is inherent in the original 1991 UN resolution, as President Clinton recognized when he launched Operation Desert Fox in 1998."

Hillary would have done well to leave out that last part, the one where her husband, the former President of the United States, used military force as part of a 72-hour bombing campaign ostensibly deemed as a punitive strike in defense of disarmament, but in actuality proved to be a blatant attempt at regime change which used the hyped-up threat of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction as an excuse for action. Sound familiar? While many Americans today condemn the Bush administration for misleading them with false claims of unsubstantiated threats which resulted in the ongoing debacle we face today in Iraq (count Hillary among this crowd), few have reflected back on the day when the man from Hope, Arkansas sat in the Oval Office and initiated the policies of economic sanctions-based containment and regime change which President Bush later brought to fruition when he ordered the invasion of Iraq in March 2003.

[Ravy]

103. I think it was the right vote.

BTW, when you say, put their "political interests" ahead of something, you really mean to say "did what their constituents wanted", correct? I mean, if you don't generally do what your people want, they vote you out.

[MadHound]

125. What I find interesting, and pathetic, is the hypocrisy of many of these people

I vividly remember how in that period from '02-04 there was lots of talk on these boards, much of it done by current Hillary supporters, that we absolutely had to hold those who voted for the IWR accountable for their actions and vote them out of office. Many of us did just that, but now when it comes down to holding their candidate accountable for that vote, these self same supporters are quiet as a churchmouse, and pretending that they never made such vows. Hypocrites.