If you're black, and you vote for Sen. Obama ONLY because HE is black; or if you're a woman and you

[Redstone]

vote for Sen. Clinton ONLY because SHE is a woman, guess what?

Fine with me.

I do not have, nor does anyone else have the right to criticize your decision. Because it's YOUR decision, not anyone else's.

I will offer you one little bit of advice, though: Don't feel guilty about telling people who question your motivation to fuck off and leave you alone.

It's YOUR decision, made for YOUR reason or reasons.

Redstone

[AX10]

1. I agree. But let us not have a double standard...

where one is o.k and the other is not.

[Redstone]

3. Did I propose a double standard? I don't think I did.

Redstone

[question everything]

7. No, you did not. But many here do (nt)

[Redstone]

10. That's why I wrote the original post. Not that it will do any good, but

what the hell, you gotta try, yes?

Redstone

[MichiganVote]

14. Does me good just to see someone post something with common sense.

Good for you Redstone!

[Redstone]

16. Thank you. I know it's like telling the tide to stop rolling in, but

the racist and misogynistic lectures I've seen directed at black folks and women around here finally got to me.

Redstone

[MichiganVote]

21. LOL! Only now? I've quit this place 6 times in the last 3 weeks.

Honestly, some of the stuff is just kooky, and some is clearly PR from God knows where. The ones I really object to are the posts in which there is name calling, a comedy central wannabe at somebody's expense or the really foul stuff.

So I guess we've all figured out I'm over 50...been there, done that, not worth the trouble anymore.

[xmas74]

2. Thank you.

I hear the crap all the time-you're a white woman, of course you're voting for her.

There are plenty of other reasons why I voted the way I did but no one wanted to hear them. Now I tell others where they can go.

[THUNDER HANDS]

4. i agree. everyone has a right to be a fool.

[Redstone]

6. And you have every right to show yourself to be a fool by telling them that.

Not to mention arrogant.

Redstone

[THUNDER HANDS]

46. yes, because its so foolish to point out the absurdity of voting for someone

based off of their race and gender.

I said it was their right to be a fool. If that makes me arrogant because I don't share your 'there's no such thing as a bad reason to vote for someone' philosophy, then fine. If I said I was voting for Bush because his wife was a librarian and my fiancee is a librarian, that would be stupid and I'd expect to be called out on it. Certainly it's my right, doesn't change the fact that it's a moronic reason to cast a vote for someone.

[MichiganVote]

58. See my post # 51

It must be very difficult for you as a representative of the "youth" or some layer of it to comprehend the reasoning that we hopeless over 40 something's have.

There you are educated, concerned, feeling cornered by a powerful elite and a dumb electorate encouraged by one lone poster to vote with freedom, if not abandonment of the very social rules you learned in your public or private education.

How do you all manage to handle the hyposcrisy of your own undereducated minds? Do you imagine that you are creating a party? A movement that does not have its roots in the very socks of the sixty somethings you disdain?

Political parties grew once upon a time because they gave the electorate food. They gave the men food, jobs, freedom from slavery, a vote. Tangible, useable, doable.

Today you think that you are something special because you crave ideas and the party panders to you by giving them to you...in this candidate or that candidate...ideas! ideas! ideas!

Sure the party will give you ideas, either party will. They will idealize you and idealize themselves. It is what politicians do. It is what some must do to accomplish a 1/4 of what their dreams may have been.

People voting for food? No, go to the food bank, vote the ideas! People voting for jobs? No, wage war against Nafta you say...I have a family to feed...seeds of word lost in the wind.

Any vote is better than no vote. ANY vote. Sure there are things I shale my head at, but it doesn't matter. It is inherant, when I vote, I support your vote regardless of your reasons...I support your vote.

[MichiganVote]

61. dupe

[Redstone]

69. "based off of their race and gender?" You're going to lecture someone about what's "moronic,"

when you use such grammar?

Fine teacher you are.

Redstone

[bunnies]

5. I cant agree.

Voting based solely on race or gender is racist / sexist respectively. No amount of "reasoning" can make me respect that decision. This contest is way too important than just to vote based on color or genitalia. It sickens me to think that people are voting on black vs. white. Penis vs vagina. I cant accept it.

[Redstone]

8. It's THEIR decision, not yours. Whether you like that or not.

Redstone

[redwitch]

76. I don't think it is that simple.

The memory of years of discrimination and second class citizenship just might make somebody feel absolutely thrilled to vote for a black American or a woman. I will be pleased to vote for either of them even if they didn't each have other qualities that make them vastly superior to the Republican challenger. History is being made here, it is pretty damned exciting and if it brings in masses of new Democratic voters you won't hear me complain.

[Little Star]

9. People have told others on this board, that it is stupid to vote

for Hillary just because she is a woman. I believe there are probably some who have said the same thing about Obama because he is black (I personally never saw one of those, but won't deny it probably has happened).

You sir, are 100% correct. It is each individuals decision no matter what the reason/reasons are! :thumbsup:

[rug]

11. Can I vote for McCain only because he's an asshole?

[Redstone]

15. If you want to. It's your decision.

Redstone

[MichiganVote]

12. And here's another totally radical idea folks...

you can even keep your vote private....

[question everything]

17. Not in some caucuses, especially Iowa

I don't know about the rest. I think that Nevada, too, you had to stand up and be counted.

In Minnesota you wrote a name on a piece of paper and dropped in a bucket, so it was private..

[MichiganVote]

25. I was thinking more along the lines of the GE.

[question everything]

26. Oh, sorry. (nt)

[MichiganVote]

34. No problem.

[BlackVelvet04]

13. I read a good quote the other day...

I'm not voting for Hillary because she's a woman, I'm voting for her because I'm a woman.

Actually there are many other reasons I'm voting for her but the fact she's a woman and I'm a woman is why I'm excited about voting for her.

And anybody that doesn't like it can kiss my little butt. :-)

[malletgirl02]

18. Yes

Thank you for posting this. On a personal note. As you can see from my avatar, my states primary is tomorrow. I know that voting is my civic duty, but I really don't want to vote, I'm dreading it actually, due to all the nonsense, if I vote for Obama people will think it is because I'm black or Clinton because i'm female. Even though, he dropped put there are times I seriously think about just voting for Edwards, so all that conflict will go away. Your post has lessen the dread I was feeling about voting.

[Redstone]

20. Listen to me: The LAST thing that should be on your mind is "what people will think" about

who you vote for.

One more time: It's YOUR decision.

Redstone

[malletgirl02]

23. you are right

I wasjust saying that would made me feel better, I am now less worried about what other people think now. :)

[MichiganVote]

24. You know, my youngest kid voted this year for the first time. Imagine that, first primary, age 20...

and of course we all know the problem with Michigan. But my kid, knowing that his vote might not count for crap, did his civic duty anyway. He was proud of himself and so was I.

So you just go to that voting booth and if nothing else, you vote because you can. Its not fattening, its tax free and others earned that right for you.

Use it.

[Redstone]

28. And doesn't it feel good to see the "youth vote" numbers. This is some great stuff

to be experiencing, isn't it?

Redstone

[MichiganVote]

29. Yes it is, and he has prodded and in some cases humiliated his friends into

registering. They were giving him some crap about his candidate choice so he turned it around on them and told them, 'Hey, at least I'm registered to vote morons'. :) So fun...and they better vote cuz' unlike *, McCain WILL have them in uniform.

[JVS]

19. Does that logic extend to those who wouldn't vote for a certain candidate in the GE?

Is "I do not have, nor does anyone else have the right to criticize your decision. Because it's YOUR decision, not anyone else's." the motto you go by then?

[Redstone]

22. Well, yeah, if someone is an old white guy from Arizona with pouchy chipmunk cheeks,

and wants to vote for McCain because he's the same, why should I object?

Redstone

[JVS]

27. Just making sure, because I don't think anyone holds to your idea that the individual's vote...

is their own and their reasoning is not to be assailed. At least not from how I've seen people act here for the last 5 years.

[Redstone]

30. Well, my idea might not be popular on DU, or on a specific portion of DU, but

it's my idea anyway.

Nobody (or few people), on DU or elsewhere, will "hold to my idea?" Fine with me; I've never once said that anyone has to agree with me.

Redstone

[MichiganVote]

32. I do! I do! I do! And I have not and will not assail the choices that others make.

[Jed Dilligan]

31. One thing that isn't always clear

is the benefit voters who vote their identity expect to receive. I don't think it makes any difference on the policy level. Obama will pursue policies that help women, and Clinton will pursue policies that help black people, not due to identity but because these groups are major components of the party base.

Sociologically, having a role model of your, shall we say, phenotype in the top job may have a positive effect on the aspirations of your group. This effect will be much stronger on black males if Obama is president than it will be on females if Clinton is president. The reason? Women are already the aspirers of the next generation, with a majority in college enrollment that is even greater if we look at minorities separately (black college enrollment is close to 70% female). Black males have the same innate abilities as any other group, and there is no question that the idea of always playing second fiddle to a white boss is a major source of their lack of educational motivation. A black president has the chance to turn around those attitudes in a significant number of cases, and this is one of the reasons why black voters are supporting Obama in such record numbers.

Meanwhile, females will likely continue their well-established trend of outstripping males in educational attainment regardless of who becomes president. Part of the reason for this is, of course, institutional sexism. Women realize they will need to be more qualified to make the same pay as males, and many of them are serving as heads of household (single working mothers) for whom salary is the major determinant of quality of life for themselves and their children.

[MichiganVote]

33. Very thoughtful post.

[Redstone]

36. What, you're going to try to tell me that women tend to be smarter than men, in general,

notwithstanding ethnicity or any other factor? That women, as a group, tend to think things through more thoroughly than men do?

I'm afraid that, given that I'm a man, I have to tell you this:

You're probably right.

Redstone

[stellanoir]

35. Well I'm a Celtic chick and a 13th generational american

and I loathe the thought of dynasties.

Time for a change perhaps.

[Redstone]

39. And that's a damn good reason for you to vote the way you do. THAT reasoning is every

bit as valid as any other, indeed. It doesn't invalidate those who make a choice for other reasons, but is (at least to me) a damn good basis upon which to decide.

Redstone

[stellanoir]

64. Consider reading this.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/william/why-i-recorded-yes-w_b_84655.html

The whole thing is really powerful but this portion I found to be especially succinct and makes a point that I see no one saying elsewhere.

". . ."change for the better"
Inspiration breeds change...

"Positive change"...

no one on this planet is truly experienced to handle the obstacles we face today...
Terror, fear, lies, agendas, politics, money, all the above...
It's all scary...

Martin Luther King didn't have experience to lead...
Kennedy didn't have experience to lead...
Susan B. Anthony...
Nelson Mandela...
Rosa Parks...
Gandhi...
Anne Frank...
and everyone else who has had a hand in molding the freedoms we have and take for granted today...

no one truly has experience to deal with the world today...

they just need "desire, strength, courage ability, and passion" to change...
and to stand for something even when people say it's not possible...

America would not be here "today" if we didn't stand and fight for
change "yesterday"...
Everything we have as a "people" is because of the "people" who fought for
change...
and whoever is the President has to realize we have a lot of changing to do

I'm not trying to convince people to see things how i do...
I produced this song to share my new found inspiration and how I've been moved...
I hope this song will make you feel...
love...
and think...
and be inspired just like the speech inspired me...

that's all..."

http://www.dipdive.com /

ponder that my friend.

[Redstone]

66. Oh, that's well-written and powerful stuff, indeed. Thanks for the link.

Redstone

[stellanoir]

68. it's just so sincere.

[Redstone]

70. Yes. As much as I, old fart that I am, might be willing to dismiss the words of

someone who call himself "Will.I.Am" in such a trendy, dot-com way, I clamped down on my prejudice and READ his words.

And was damned impressed.

What he said, is what I say.

Redstone

[stellanoir]

71. I found it to be moving and to be powerfully moving as well

peace luv

[Redstone]

73. Same to you, m'dear. Good to be talking with you again, after such a long time.

Redstone

[stellanoir]

74. Sorry but as an semi old swamp yankee I found that to be refreshing

Hope you did too,

[Redstone]

79. That I did, indeed, and I appreciate the link.

Redstone

[Levgreee]

37. The duty of a citizen in a Democracy is to be an educated voter and participant

sorry, I cannot agree that it is 'fine' to vote based off of gender or skin color, I have higher expectations for people, and for our country.

I'll still accept their decision, but I'll still say it was a badly justified one.


"In selecting men for office, let principle be your guide. Regard not the particular sect or denomination of the candidate--look to his character. "

Noah Webster

"Look well to the characters and qualifications of those you elect and raise to office and places of trust. "

Matthias Burnett

[Redstone]

42. My point: Why do you think that YOUR "expectations" should be the basis for

other people's choices?

There are many things I'd like to see people in this country do, but it's not for me to judge their actions, not their motivations for those actions.

Redstone

[Levgreee]

45. It is not MY expectations, it is the expectation, the duty, implied in a Democracy, to be educated

and informed. It keeps the Democracy healthy, makes it prosper even. If you are decided your vote off of shallow reasoning, such as "he is Black" or "she's a women" I guarantee you that is not an educated decision, and that it is more harmful to Democracy, than helpful.

Sure, it could be a supporting point, it could be the tipping point when all other things are equal, but candidates are rarely, if ever, that equal.

But, if gender or race, is one of your main criteria, that is not a dutiful voting choice.

[Redstone]

55. "Off of shallow reasoning?" "she's a women?" You could use some education yourself.

That's pretty poor English there.

Redstone

[MichiganVote]

51. I'm afraid you're going to have to define the term, "educated" to me...

You see, from my point of view, were I an African American citizen and my ancestors bones rested in god knows what soil in a foreign country NOT of their choice...

I'm educated. I know that no matter what book from a white publisher tells me about slavery, what month is chosen for my history or what war has been fought...those bones could be my bones. Every tree that someone once swung from, could be my tree. Every lousy housing project, jobs program or inner city school without materials, could be my school.

I have principals. I'm a female and I have principals. Principal 1. Never select a risky situation for yourself or you'll be to blame for the assault, the rape, the murder. Principal 2. A poor female has a choice of three plans, a man, a government or an education. Not neccessairily in that order. Principal 3. Even though you are now allowed to vote, to earn money, to own property, never forget...that you were once no better and no worse than the plowhand in the field who probably earns more than you do anyway. Principal 4. The character of any government is only as good as the care that ita takes of its children....

and my friend, black or white, native american or asian....we treat our children like shit in this country.

So if my family has had a slave, I can still think like a slave. If my family includes a woman I can soooo think like a woman intended for free labor and if my family includes a child, I owe it to them to think like a human being.

If you can't think like a human being during this election...you'll vote like an animal.

[NashVegas]

80. Wow

I wish I could nominate an individual post ... peace.

[MichiganVote]

83. Well thank you Crisco, copy it and use it for yourself if you like. Peace to you also.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

38. people vote how they want to - it's a free country

well at least we think it is free?

[Levgreee]

40. You can be free and ignorant, or free and enlightened... it is not an argument over freedom...

although, if people think poorly about how they vote, they only have themselves to blame if that vote leads to a loss in freedom.

[Redstone]

43. Dingdingding! You win the prize! You GET it! That's my point, exactly.

In America, the idea is supposed to be that you can make whatever decision you want to, for whatever reason you want to.

And also that you get to live with the consequences of having made that decision.

Redstone

[Levgreee]

48. Newsflash, it is not you that lives with the consequences of your decision

this is such an obvious thing, I can't believe I have to tell you. How you vote has an impact on every other person in the nation. That is why it is a SACRED right, and a responsibility.... a responsibility that shouldn't be taken lightly.

[MichiganVote]

52. What you do not comprehend it that how you vote is an outcome of how you have lived

[Redstone]

62. Now THAT is a simple concept that so many people simply do not understand.

Redstone

[MichiganVote]

63. I know baby. :) On edit; May I say that you have started the best thread in weeks!

[Redstone]

65. Geez, thanks. I do try, though God knows why. You may know that I'm an essentially lazy

son of a gun, and not inclined to tilt at windmills, as appealing to reason and The American Way equates to, here at GDP.

But I'm spent for the night. I'll see you around the forums (or should that be "fora?").

Redstone

[MichiganVote]

67. You bet. :)

[Redstone]

54. Have I advocated taking it lightly? No. I've advocated the SACRED part of it being

an individual decision.

Redstone

[Rosa Luxemburg]

44. maybe they should have training courses!

[Redstone]

49. And a literacy test at the polls, yes?

Redstone

[Rosa Luxemburg]

50. how's the Native American vote doing?

Obama has native American on his mother's side!

[Redstone]

53. Not my problem how it's doing.

Redstone

[Common Sense Party]

41. I'm a white guy. I'm voting for the white guy. Go, Gravel! nt

[Redstone]

47. Good God, wouldn't it be great if he got elected? People are talking about CHANGE...

now THERE is a guy who would make some damn changes, right there.

In an ideal world, he'd have a chance to get elected. Too bad we don't live in an ideal world, because I really like him, and I do honestly believe that America would benefit from the shake-up that would happen if he was our President.

Redstone

[Common Sense Party]

81. You got it. I wish people would just wake up and realize we have

a REAL choice for change. There aren't only two candidates in this race, and if anyone is as sick as I am of the bickering between the two camps, they can go for Gravel, and ROCK ON!

[Iris]

56. So, you're saying you're pro-(voter's)-choice?

Cool!

[Redstone]

57. Guilty as charged.

Redstone

[Iris]

59. In the words of our soon to be former president, "That's uniquely American!"

[Redstone]

60. Maybe so.

Redstone

[MichiganVote]

72. K&R come on somebody else recommend this thread where you've all behaved yourselves for a change

[mtnsnake]

75. I coudn't agree more with you.

:thumbsup:

[tammywammy]

77. Agreed

Everyone has the right to make their own decision.

[smoogatz]

78. Good post.

Though I don't really think there's much risk of that, in either case. How many prospective black Obama voters would also vote for Alan Keyes, say? How many prospective female Hillary voters would also vote for Katherine Harris? I just don't think that many people are really going to vote SOLELY on the basis of race or gender.

[quantass]

82. I vote for Sen. Obama ONLY because i'm Canadian.

North of the border says he's quite the prez you've got there.

[Freddie Stubbs]

84. What if you are white and you vote for a white candidate ONLY because he/she is white?

Is that ok too?

[Forkboy]

85. No ok to me personally, but ok for THAT person, and it's their vote.

Whatever low litmus test they set for themselves is their own choice and, regardless of our feelings about it, nothing will, or should, change that. :shrug: