What did Keith Olbermann mean by this?

[hiaasenrocks]

Are these offensive references to some people? Just curious. (For what it's worth, I did a search for "petraeus" and "olbermann" before posting this and nothing came up, but if this has been discussed, sorry for the re-post.)

But, Mr. Bush, you have hidden behind the General's skirts...

And in pimping General David Petraeus, sir, in violation of everything this country has been assiduously and vigilantly against for 220 years...

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/092107A.shtml

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. Obviously Olbermann's a homophobe.

It's the only logical conclusion.

[hiaasenrocks]

4. It seems that some here might make that leap. That's what I'm trying to find out.

Just looking for the boundaries in the speech codes among some here.

[fenriswolf]

2. that bush only listens to general who reflect his opinion

then he puts those generals on the stand to be his bitch and say whatever he wants them to say. Ask every general that has been relieved of command regarding the iraq war. They all don't agree with bush thats why they were relieved of command.

[hiaasenrocks]

5. Do you think he meant that General Petraeus wears a skirt and is a male prostitute?

There's a serious debate about words (specifically "pimping") going on at DU and elsewhere, so let's examine the entire issue.

[fenriswolf]

11. not literally

jeez

[hiaasenrocks]

15. That's all I wanted to know. We're in agreement. Thanks.

[Avalux]

3. General Patraeus is a whore??

You have proven an excellent point. My 15 year old daughter tells me "pimping" isn't a word to get worked up about. She doesn't think the Clintons should have pressed the issue as far as they did. She's 15 and apolitical.

;-)

[LisaM]

6. It matters when you have the first viable female candidate ever

And we have to deal with the pervasive language of sexism that has become so second nature to some that they simply don't hear the implications.

Not to mention, if anyone wants to be taken seriously as a journalist, this is not professional language.

BTW, I like Keith Olbermann, but I find his special commentaries laughably pretentious (I have said this before), and I don't think he should have used the term either.

Not just that, when is the last time something actually came out of the Clinton camp on this? What have they said since, say, last Wednesday or Thursday?

[hiaasenrocks]

10. I agree with you 100% about his special comments being pretentious. Absolutely.

I really don't care for his style at all.

But we may have to disagree on whether the word is sexist or not, in these examples.

[LisaM]

24. Well, it is to a lot of women.

It's sometimes hard to explain to someone else how a word makes you feel. I had a similar reaction to Don Imus's comments on the Rutgers team. It's even more glaring when I have this argument in my own household. I come off as sounding waspish, but it matters to me.

[Bucky]

7. Petraeus is a big boy. Bush is a big boy.

Chelsea Clinton is a young adult supporting her mother for president, which involves no contradiction of her basic values. Patraeus went against a career's worth of honorable service to his country to make himself a salesman for Bush's murderous policy.

I remember cringing when I heard Olbermann say Bush was pimping the general--I also thought the "Betray-us" stunt was a dumb call. But at least there's some substance to and no background misogyny in saying Bush pimped Petraeus. Saying that about Chelsea was just pure ugly.

I'm backing Obama, but I think Shuster deserved to be suspended for that horrible, ugly choice of words.

[hiaasenrocks]

13. OK, but do you believe that KO was saying that Petraeus...

wears a skirt and is a male prostitute?

Your argument seems to be that the alleged "slur" is OK depending on the age and career position of the person to whom the word was directed, or if that person deserves it ("involves no contradiction of her basic values"). Those are some extremely subjective lines you're drawing there.

[Bucky]

19. "Pimping" is subjectively offensive.

Maybe I'm being old fashioned here. I think it's unacceptable to tag Chelsea Clinton with the "pimping" line than it is to put a politicized four star general in that position.

In part it's because he's a man and she's a young lady. I try to be a gentleman and I'm of the southern variety; I think you don't imply a lady's pimpable on TV ever ever ever. When the same insult is put on a man, it's less offensive to me because, being a powerful military officer, he's less vulnerable to the hurt such an accusation causes.

In part it's also that Petraeus freely chose his public role in his situation. Chelsea Clinton is just a kid supporting her mom. She didn't choose to have that mom and she didn't choose for her mom to be a candidate. Petraeus agreed to his role; Ms. Clinton had no such choice. In hardball politics and gangland warfare, you go after the players, but you don't go after the kids.

But like I said, I was bothered by the line when Olbermann used it. It's crude and it's mean and it's not particularly accurate. Petraeus is allowing his office to be politicized and he's supporting a policy that's needlessly killing his men, the people they're trying to protect, and the honor of the nation he's served his whole life. That may not be the moral equivalent of prostitution, but it sure isn't as honorable as helping your mom when she runs for president, hoping to end that wretched bloodbath.

Anyway, I'm supporting Obama in this race, and hopefully all this worry about Chelsea will be moot soon enough.

[hiaasenrocks]

25. I respect your decision to self-censor. I don't see a problem with that.

I simply abhor censorship from without.

"Chelsea Clinton is just a kid supporting her mom. She didn't choose to have that mom and she didn't choose for her mom to be a candidate."

Chelsea chose to go out on the campaign trial. And she's not stupid. She knows that politics and political commentary can be rough. Good Lord, her parents are Bill and Hillary Clinton, so she probably knows it better than most children of politicians.

She's also accomplished and seems to be of strong character. I doubt she suffered any harm here.

[laconicsax]

8. Is Petraeus suddenly not a whore?

[Bucky]

9. I would not pay to have sex with him.

Please don't insult sex workers by comparing them to war mongers.

[Dogmudgeon]

12. It means you're trying to spin the Schuster "pimping" story

--p!

[hiaasenrocks]

14. Thank you for that substantive and informative response.

[goodgd_yall]

29. Well, that's the crux of your post

You don't really need an interpretation of what was said.

[Tom Rinaldo]

16. I can understand how someone who is used to "pimping" being used in slang

in an asexual context might use it in public without reflecting on the literal implication. But for one thing it is much easier to do so if the subject being "pimped out" isn't a young woman, since in the original sexual use of that word it usually is a young woman who gets pimped out.

But I'm not into playing dumb here. After Shuster talked about Hillary sort of pimping out Chelsea in what very much could have been a spontaneous slip without thinking, he was contacted privately by email by the Clinton campaign and told that the reference was upsetting and Shuster was asked to apologize and he flat out refused to.

When you find yourself in a hole, rule number one is STOP DIGGING. Whether or not KO or Shuster thinks of "pimping out" mostly or not mostly as a sexually derogatory phrase isn't the point. Whether Americans below a certain age think that way is not the point. Many Americans, probably most Americans, associate at least figuratively "pimping out" with pimps and whores. When that is called to the attention of a news broadcaster after that news broadcaster uses that term to describe the relationship between a parent and a young woman, the appropriate thing to do would be to apologize then and there immediately, not become defiant about it.

[hiaasenrocks]

17. I see your point but disagree.

I would not simply admit guilt and/or apologize for something for which I did not believe that response was warranted. To do so would be to set a precedent of allowing the speech police to dictate my every word and phrase. As a writer, I write what I think and the reaction is beyond my control. I've never had any problems, but I do have an editor who believes firmly in standing against censorship, be it from the government, corporations or any group.

[Tom Rinaldo]

22. Ah but I do think the response was warrented, so yes we disagree

I can go down the road with you as far as understanding how Shuster may have blurted that out, about Chelsea and her Mom, without thinking it through, but that language IS shocking and vile to many millions of Americans when used associated with a young woman of fine personal reputation and her parent who is running for President. Shuster wasn't doing some comedy gig for the Late Late Show, he wasn't writing for an off beat blogging site. He was doing prime time news commentary for a major network. An apology would have been simple and in order.

[IsItJustMe]

18. Apples and oranges anyone? What a bazarre comparison.

Bush and his generals
HRC and her daughter


This place is getting stranger by the minute.

[hiaasenrocks]

26. Cliche alert.

You can compare apples and oranges. "Compare" means to find differences and similarities. And there are similarities here: namely, the word used.

[LittleClarkie]

20. Pushing Petraeus forward to push Bush's agenda

Either that or Bush dressed him up like a cheap tart and sent him to the streets.

I'd probably go with the first.

[boston bean]

21. Oh FFS he meant Bush was whoring Petraeus around for political purposes.

It was not a positive connotation.

[hiaasenrocks]

27. So what did Shuster mean?

Did he mean that the Clintons sent Chelsea out on the campaign trail for political purposes or did he mean that Bill/Hillary are pimps and their daughter is a prostitute?

[bilgewaterbill]

40. Point, set, match!

[Samantha]

43. He meant the Clintons sent Chelsea out to PROCURE

superdelegate votes. That is literally one of the definitions of "pimp" -- to procure.

I am amazed that people here think that a commentator would make a statement such as that in a sexual connotation. His conversation revolved around a political narrative. Obviously someone like Shuster would know that asking that question on national television in a sexual connotation would mean the probable end of his job. He's not that dumb. He simply was using that word as many do, to go out and get ....

[DS1]

23. This is stupid.

[hiaasenrocks]

28. Brilliant, well thought out, substantive response.

[DS1]

31. The two are apples v oranges, and unworthy of further thought and debate

But you're welcome for what you got

[hiaasenrocks]

39. ...........

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4542562&mesg_id=4544513

[hiaasenrocks]

30. Thanks to everyone who answered, even the ones who answered without really answering.

I think I got all I need to know out of this.

[TheDonkey]

32. FIRE HIM!!!!!! OMG!!

[McCamy Taylor]

33. Context counts, as anyone who can write a post here knows, so this post is without merit.

"Pimping out" an aging male general in our society does not have any offensive sexual connotations. It is analogous to "pimping your ride".

"Pimping out" a young woman in our society does.

In the same way, comparing a White candidate to Jesse Jackson would not be construed as a racially insensitive comment but comparing a Black candidate was. It was all about context.

I have noticed that this is a common rhetorical trick used by people trying to make false arguments. They ignore context.

[uncertainty1999]

34. I said it re: Shuster, & I'll say it here: 'pimp' is gutter language...

Olbermann is a smart & talented guy. He would have more effectively communicated his opinion by dropping the inflammatory gutter language. Of all people, he certainly does not have to use words like this.

[uncertainty1999]

35. I said it re: Shuster, & I'll say it here: 'pimp' is gutter language...

Olbermann would have more effectively communicated his opinion by dropping the inflammatory gutter language. We know he's a gifted orator...so why did he choose to detract from that w/this poor choice of words? Only he could say!

[DiamondJay]

36. of course! Olbermanns another clinton hater

who is trying to essentially say he condones what Shuster said. These drive-bys will never quit. But on words alone, he is right about General Betraeus.

[Berry Cool]

38. Oh, please.

Yeah, Olbermann's another Clinton hater. Must be why he thanks them in the acknowledgments of his latest book. (In case you're curious, of the candidates, he doesn't mention Obama. Or any Republicans. Just the Clintons, the Edwardses and Dennis Kucinich.) That's how much of a "Clinton hater" he is.

[DiamondJay]

41. u oughta watch his show

and all he does is trash "the ClintonS" as if they are a plural. It is Hillary, not billary. he is obama's biggest cheerleader of all the drive-bys.

[Medusa]

42. He bailed on Clinton as soon as she began to lose elections

I bet if that book was printed now, he'd be "thanking" different candidates. I think he's another one who sticks his finger in the air to determine which way the wind is blowing. And that my friend is called whoring (yourself), not pimping, unless you're pimping yourself out to whomever you think your biggest audience might be.

[stillcool]

37. That's easy..

Bush sent out Petraeus to sell his war.