I have 2 worries about Obama..

[samrock]

1) He will be another McGovern .. BE swept into the nomination on a wave of passion and emotion.. then end up crashing and leading to a defeat in November..

2) He will be another Carter .. A very nice man.. Honest president, but did not have the tools to play the game to get things done..

The #1 job of the next president is to reverse all the stuff George W Bush did.. We want to get 4-8 years into the next administration and see the landscape look like November 2000 .. With us running a surplus.. Not in any stupid senseless wars.. working on a effective energy plan and health care plan being handled.. the idea that we want a president to unite this country is idealistic clap trap.. the 40-45% that always vote republican will always fight.. We need to have an effective president.. who knows HOW to get policy we want thru congress..

I will vote for whom ever is the democratic nominee.. but if it is Obama.. I hope we don't look back and say we blew it on an unknown with only 2 years senate experience.. I was SOO hoping Obama would run for governor of Illinois to get 4 years under his belt PROVING he could run a large bureaucracy.. It would not have hurt Clinton to have run for governor of New York, but SHE was involved in the running of a state for many years and the country as Bill Clinton's wife and got in many of the meetings and learned what works and what does not..

[OzarkDem]

1. More likely the first

His campaign bears some similarities to McGovern's, though there are exceptions: McGovern was treated badly by the news media (Obama is getting GOP style favorabl treatment from them for now) and because of it, McGovern went into the GE as a weakened candidate. McGovern was also a better candidate than Obama, more experienced and someone who was trustworthy.

[Joyce78]

2. Vote for Hillary and Obama as VP ... the Clintons will groom him

to withstand the next Bush assault ... jeb.

[AX10]

17. I agree. Clinton/Obama 08'!

[rodeodance]

41. yes, he needs some prep time. but too arrogant to know it.

[cd3dem]

89. too arrogant to know it... that is for sure!!!!

[intaglio]

62. Groom - a word that raises my hackles

Groom like a show horse?
Groom like making him fit for "respectable" DLC company?
or Groom like internet predators?

You do not "Groom" a respected, highly intelligent 40 year old - especially one who is kicking your electoral butt.

[BigBearJohn]

79. How about THIS definition #3 (courtesy of Webster)

groom
2 entries found.


Main Entry:
2groom
Function:
verb
Date:
1809

transitive verb
3 : to get into readiness for a specific objective : prepare <was being groomed as a presidential candidate> intransitive verb : to groom oneself

[intaglio]

86. I was pointing out connotations* and the implied insult

You still do not GROOM a person who has already shown the abilities and competence for a job. Next you will be saying that Bill has been "grooming" Hillary for the job.



*A subjective cultural and/or emotional coloration in addition to the explicit or denotative meaning of any specific word or phrase in a language

[bigdarryl]

82. Hes not going to settle for VP he would probably run for Governor of Illinois instead.

[jlake]

3. It will be #1. I guarantee it. And it can't be #2, because I don't think Obama is a nice man.

[Lefty-Taylor]

9. Not a "nice man"? First, what do you base this on? And second, I thought that

was one of his supposed weaknesses: He wasn't tough enough. Hillary supporters confuse and confound reason. I sure hope we get rid of Republican Lite HRC. We don't have a true progressive in the race any more but Obama is truly the better choice.

[jlake]

12. I think that Obama is a dirty politician.

His contempt for the GLBT community leaves me thinking he is not nice.
He is sure no friend of mine.

[MagsDem]

20. Personally, I can't stomach his lies

But even if I could, he is unelectable in the GE.

[jlake]

23. I agree. I see a 48-50 state loss for us if he is the nominee.

And I am not kidding either.

[MagsDem]

27. I don't know if it will be that bad, but it will be bad

I don't think he can even win CA because hispanics will not vote for him en masse, and there is NO path to the WH for dems without CA.

[jlake]

33. I am trying to figure out what states Obama will carry...

I'm thinking Illinois and maybe New York

[TheWraith]

54. You two: get a room if you're going to be doing that. NT

[jlake]

56. What states that Kerry lost can Obama flip? (and do you think he'll keep all that Kerry got?)

[TheWraith]

61. OH, FL, GA, NC, SC, CO, IA, NV, MO, VA, NM & LA.

Not all of them, necessarily, but I'd peg money on half of those being in our column. Also, outside odds on one or two of the Plains states.

That "cult" thing you folks keep mocking and attacking? It's called voter enthusiasm. Excited voters get themselves to the polls. Obama is a far better candidate than Kerry was.

[jlake]

83. I am glad you are optomistic. I don't think so.

Florida is a pipe dream.

[Thrill]

31. Against McCain? Give me a damn break

McCain is the one likely to be swept. He is a piss poor candidate. With a long voting record and no plans for the economy or Healthcare.

[jlake]

32. You know all the "horrible" things that have been hinted at during the primary

(racism, muslim, drugs, rezko etc) They will have a major impact in the GE - and you underestimate McCain.

[Thrill]

38. You give him to much credit

Senators with long voting records don't win presidential elections. And the Keating 5 will come back to bite him clear in the ass. And he still has his own Swift Boat problem.

[jlake]

39. He is a war hero, is very likeable and will get the seal of approval

from the Republican establishment --- proof being Bush's endorsement.

[Thrill]

45. Big deal.....Bob Dole was a war hero

But since the economy and healthcare are much more important right now. He is already fucked.

[TheWraith]

59. They've been "hinted at" because they DON'T F-ING EXIST.

Drug abuse as a teenager? He admitted that himself a dozen years ago. What about it?

The "muslim" thing? Flatly untrue. Racism? All the real racists already vote Republican. Rezko? A manufactured "scandal" that even the Clinton machine can't really do anything with.

You overestimate McCain. Sure, ten years ago he was an honest, independent-minded guy with a penchant for honesty. And some of that rep stick with him today. But that evaporates the minute people start hearing about his plans for a hundred years in Iraq, and bombing Iran, and his "no new jobs" promises.

And you overestimate Hillary. If she gets nominated, the attack is going to be, "She was for the war before she was against it."

[Lefty-Taylor]

25. Lies??? Look at the Clintons and their on-the-record lies -- from Bill's perjury to Hillary's

misdirections about her IRW vote. Those are lies that are insufferable. And please don't tell me that Bill and Hillary are two completely different political animals. HRC supported so many of Bill's Republican-like policies!!! Telecom Act of 96, the so-called "Welfare Reform Act" and the immoral bombing of Iraqi civilians in '93.

Cha-cha-change -- is what we need.

[jlake]

30. No one is saying that the Clintons are perfect.

The point is that Obama doesn't represent any change - he is a shiny package of status quo - why else would the media be pusing him so hard? Do you think they turned a 180?

[TheWraith]

60. Assuming facts not in evidence: that the media is pushing Obama, and that there's a conspiracy...

... to select our candidate. Was it still a conspiracy when the media spent a year using Hillary's name and the word "frontrunner" twice in every sentence?

And nobody is more "status quo" than Hillary.

[MagsDem]

36. Love them rethug talking points

Rethugs have spent 12 yrs trying to convince me that Clinton's BJ was the most important event in history. I still think it was nobody else's business. And Hillary has not lied about her votes. That would be Obama.

I will never agree with every policy issue with any candidate. But I sure as hell am NOT going to vote for a dem candidate who looks us in the eye and lies to us about policy issues (his for, against, for the Iraq war crap, his flip flop on the patriot act, his Tony Rezko who? bullshit), promises to work with rethugs instead of fight their agenda, and doesn't have a single, not ONE, "transformational" policy idea. His proposals are watered down dem agenda items from the last decade -- watered down to make them acceptable to rethug voters.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

26. oh and he's not black enough right ? n/t

[jlake]

53. WTH is that supposed to mean?

Why do Obamabots have to inject race into everything.
Here's a clue: It won't work in the GE.

[DemGa]

4. I'd say more the fate of Dukakis...nt

[Big Blue Marble]

50. And on what do you base

your oh so "astute" political analysis? I look forward to your comparisons
between Dukakis and Barack Obama.

[sandnsea]

5. If he can beat the Clinton slime machine

He can beat anybody. And he has the support Kennedy, Kerry, and so many others that he'll have DC wired - and have people who want him to succeed, unlike the animosity waiting Hillary.

[DemGa]

14. You really have no idea what Obama will get hit with do you?

Think what happened to the Clintons.

It's going to be relentless. I can't believe you really don't know.

[sandnsea]

29. I know it's a different time

And the old games aren't going to work. I also know the Clintons have done more shit in their campaign than I have ever seen Republicans do. Just because her supporters refuse to see it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. He's turned every attack right back on her because he does one simple thing, he tells the plain truth.

[nonconformist]

40. The Clintons have done more shit in this campaign than you've ever seen Republicans do?

You have got to be joking.

[sandnsea]

49. No I'm not

I've been horrified at their voter disenfranchisement, race baiting, and endless string of lies. It's been absolutely shocking.

[MagsDem]

47. You really can't believe that

I really can't believe you actually believe what you just posted there. My god, she has barely even rattled his cage. If she loses it's because she refused to go as negative as she should have. She knows he's an empty suit. She knows he's lying his ass off daily on the campaign trail. And the rethugs know too. And they will use it. Bet on it.

[Dogmudgeon]

51. You're kidding, right?

" ... the old games aren't going to work."

In your dreams.

"I also know the Clintons have done more shit in their campaign than I have ever seen Republicans do."

First, you're going to have to show me some of this "shit". I have been asking for evidence for MONTHS, and all I've gotten so far is a couple John Birch screeds about BCCI.

Second -- you haven't been watching the Republicans for very long, have you?

"Just because her supporters refuse to see it, doesn't mean it didn't happen."

Then don't just rant, show us.

"He's turned every attack right back on her because he does one simple thing, he tells the plain truth."

Of course he tells the truth all the time. After all, it's what you believe.

But maybe you can tell me what attacks he's faced. What tough questioning from the press he's had. What savage attacks from Republicans he's had to fend off. (You can even count Alan Keyes if you like.)

Wishful thinking is fatal in politics -- for anybody.

Yes, even for Barack Obama and his followers.

--p!

[sandnsea]

52. Show you? Uh, she's losing n/t

[Dogmudgeon]

63. You aren't reading your own stuff

"I also know the Clintons have done more shit in their campaign than I have ever seen Republicans do. Just because her supporters refuse to see it, doesn't mean it didn't happen."

Show us the "shit" that the Clintons have done. Show us how it's so much worse than what any Republican has done.

I think you either made it up, or more probably, you are repeating what you heard your friends say.

--p!

[sandnsea]

68. See post #49 n/t

[Dogmudgeon]

69. Again -- show us

"I've been horrified at their voter disenfranchisement, race baiting, and endless string of lies. It's been absolutely shocking."

You assume these things are self-apparent. But each of them are talking points and press corps stories.

The only voter disenfranchisement is in Obama's favor. The race-baiting consisted of a deliberate mis-quote (the "fairy-tale" dust up) and twisting an analogy into racism. (The SC 1988 caucus.)

The "endless string of lies" exists in your imagination. It also exists in the imagination of Freepers like Alamo-Girl and Cockburn's literary leftist clique.

Neither you nor anyone else has been able to point to point to any lies beyond those Bill Clinton told in 1998 to hide his sexual dalliance.

If the Clintons are lying, show us the where and what and how. Or find a real reason to criticize, not a load of decade-old recycled Republican malicious gossip.

--p!

[sandnsea]

71. Your rug must have a huge bulge

from sweeping all this Clinton dirt under it. I didn't need anybody to tell me anything about the Iowa vote because I knew that the Democratic Party had been fighting for students' right to vote for year. I didn't need anybody to tell me the caucus garbage in Nevada was nonsense because I've always known delegates are awarded proportionally. I know Bob Kerrey would never make remarks about Obama being Muslim or having the middle name "Hussein" without direction, he's not that kind of guy. And Shaheen didn't accidentally mention the "possibility" of Obama selling drugs because I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday. Now the Clinton campaign has obviously bought into the delusion that all they have to do is wave the Clinton magic around and everybody will believe their bullshit, but they're the last to know that their decades of shit are finally coming home to roost. America has had enough.

[Big Blue Marble]

44. Not everybody agrees with you.

Many political analysts think it will be very difficult for the Republicans to come after Obama, just
as it has been for the Clinton team to attack him.

They are saying there will be far fewer frontal attacks then what Kerry experienced.

Don't be like an old general and fight the last war. That usually means you will lose.

[DiamondJay]

46. people thought it would be hard to smear Kerry

and now he is a political zombie. Most cons actually believe he wounded himself for political gain. The GOP will not stop for Barack Obama.

[Big Blue Marble]

55. This will be a different campaign than the one in 04 was.

It is not wise to fight the last war.

1. Obama will have certain immunities that will scare the Republicans.They are not sure how to go after
the first black presidential candidate. It will be far more difficult than with Kerry. Obama is a far
more likable candidate than Kerry was.

2. Their own troops are splintered. Many are signaling they want to support Obama. Others may stay home.

3. They will not have the money advantage this time. Obama has shown an amazing ability to raise funds.

4. Their own candidate is much, much weaker. Most importantly he is not the incumbent.

5. Kerry almost won even with all the advantages they had.

[Blue_In_AK]

6. I have these same concerns,

but I'm trying to stay optimistic. Hopefully if he's elected he'll have the right people around him to give him sound advice, and hopefully he'll be a good listener.

[grasswire]

24. echoes of George W.

That's what eased people's minds about George W. "He'll have all those smart and experienced people to guide him!"

You know what?

I don't want a president who has to rely on unelected advisors to know how to govern and administer.

I want a president who has the basic skills from day one to repair the outrages, excesses and crimes of Bushco, and set us in a grounded, just direction.

A turnkey candidate. A journeyman, not an apprentice.

[Blue_In_AK]

57. I was trying to be charitable.

It was getting so divisive in GD: P that I sort of made a promise to myself that I'd make a serious attempt not to go too negative. I do agree with you though that it would be nice to be able to trust the new president. I don't feel particularly comfortable with any of the ones who remain.

[dansolo]

88. Not an apt comparison

Bush is unintelligent, and basically uninterested in actual policy. He just likes parading around in the role of President, and sits back expecting other people to do everything for him. Obama is not like that.

[DB1]

7. Sounds like a personal self esteem problem, none of them had this .....

kind of feeling and enthusiasm around them.

[calteacherguy]

8. I believe Obama will be a great President

and perhaps someday, so will his better half. ;-)

[TexasObserver]

10. Don't worry. You're not even close to right. Worry about Hillary being the female Mondale.

[Big Blue Marble]

48. I think your analogy is far closer to the truth.

That would be especially so if she forces her way to the nomination much as Mondale did.

[MagsDem]

11. He is unelectable in the GE

He cannot win a single southern state in the GE. He is a worse candidate than Kerry, if that can even be imagined.

[jlake]

16. I don't know if he can win a single state.

By the time he is finally vetted and the GOP runs him through the ringer - even the bluest of blue states may turn on him.
I am so saddened because it looks like our party is falling for the set up.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

28. I guess you have to lose the primary to be considered electable? n/t

[MagsDem]

42. You really don't get it?

Primary wins do not translate into GE wins. Never have, never will. Some states are blue, some states are red, and some states have a history of going either way depending on the candidate.

If you can't tell us a single southern state Obama can win, you cannot make a case that he will win the GE. Do you seriously doubt Clinton will not win every blue state? Can you seriously make a case that Obama can win a single southern state? Can you name me a dem that has been elected president without winning a single southern state? Can you seriously doubt that Clinton can take at least some of the same red states that Bill won?

[Raydawg1234]

67. You're forgetting that the evangelicals, which make up a huuuge voting block in the South,

don't really like McCain, so don't expect a high turnout for them. The climate in the South will not be as bad for Obama as you think.

[XemaSab]

80. Not to mention the fact that there are HUGH untapped pools of black voters

in the south. :)

[Raydawg1234]

64. why is he so unelectable? go ahead i dare you

[Raydawg1234]

65. delete

[Raydawg1234]

66. You forget that many of the Southern states have large ratios of black

voters, which Obama has done very well in

[Kahuna]

76. Hillary is Kerry in a skirt. nt

[ginnyinWI]

13. on the other hand

Where is Hillary's stellar record of success?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

15. I worry about that too. But remember something.

John McCain is no Richard Nixon. Nixon was a hundred times smarter and shrewder than McCain could ever hope to be. It is only by the sheer force of dumb luck and the utter incompetence of his opponents that McCain is where he is now. He doesn't even have a Rove behind him like dipshit GWB did. McCain is a walking gaffe machine and a doddering old fool. Which doesn't mean we should underestimate him by any means or be overconfident, whether our nominee is Obama or Clinton. It means that we should start playing offense rather than defense, during the general election campaign and in the presidency.

[Blue_In_AK]

18. What's even more frightening than McCain being president

is who he might pick as VP. McCain's old, there's a substantial possibility that he won't live four years. If he has someone like Jeb or Condi or the Huckster as VP, we're in trouble.

A Democrat has to win, even a flawed one -- as I see both Hillary and Obama being. We can't take four more years of those other guys.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

22. You said it.

I'm well aware of what an emotionally unstable nutjob McCain is, since he's my Senator here in AZ. With whatever neocon and/or fundie he has on the ticket with him, the combination will be lethal. Whoever his running mate is, and whoever our nominee is, we need to play hardball from the get-go. I'm for getting surrogates and 527s out there to slam the holy shit out of them from Day One. We have the money and the momentum. Let's use it, for once.

[Big Blue Marble]

19. I watched the 72 race.

This is entirely different. First McGovern ran against a strong incumbent. Now many voters have Republican fatigue including
independents and Republicans. And we will be competing against a man who has many weaknesses of his own.

Second any enthusiasm for McGovern was based on one thing and one thing alone the youth vote against the war.
Obama's appeal is much broader. Again he draws voters from a much wider field of voters.

Also he will draw the largest number of African American voters to the polls than ever in our history.
This is clearly an advantage that McGovern did not have.

Again your comparison with Carter is extremely shallow. Obama excels where Carter failed in communication style. He has the ability
to bring the people with him on policy issues. He is far more like Reagan, JFK, and FDR in this regard. Carter was caught in
the details of running his administration. By Obama's own admission he is not into details, he is into vision as all
great leaders are.

Your claim is lame that Hillary gets to count her husband's administrative experience as her own. On this basis, let's elect
Laura Bush.

[Lefty-Taylor]

21. Great response, BIg Blue. My thoughts exactly -- esp. the fact that Nixon was a sitting president

and McCain is marginally popular at best. Obama will shake the Clinton muck and emerge as a formidable candidate in the GE. He's certainly more progressive than Hillary and the DLC establishment.

I wanted Edwards; I'm happy with Obama.

[nonconformist]

35. I don't agree that Obama is more progressive.

Neither are as much as I'd like, but Hillary is more so.

[MagsDem]

37. Anybody who reads their policy proposals side by side would see that

It's not even a contest. But Obama supporters refuse to do that. Cult of Personality.

[nonconformist]

43. That's what so much of his support is, too

People who think that because he's running against Hillary, that must mean he's this big liberal progressive candidate. That's just not the case at all.

[nonconformist]

34. Great post. I have the same concerns. nt

[philly_bob]

78. Who is more progressive, Clinton or Obama? Needs thread of its own. /nt

[Levgreee]

58. If he was a crash of emotion, he would've died down in the couple months we have had

he has a strong message that will keep going the whole way through. People are not just running on 'emotion' as people suggest. In fact, I am for the most part unemotional when it comes to Obama, but he still gives a strong message to myself.

[readmoreoften]

70. My fears: he'll be to the right of Bill Clinton, listen to moderate Republicans more than his party,

have the charisma of JFK, and keep telling everyone he's a progressive until no one has the slightest idea what that means anymore.

[XemaSab]

81. I was born during the Carter administration, so the only democratic president I've seen is Clinton

and shoot, your post sure reminds me of teh Big Dog. :P

He may not have called himself a progressive, but nobody could govern to the right of Bill Clinton like Bill Clinton. ;)

[readmoreoften]

85. Well that's even scarier isn't it?

If Bill Clinton governed to the right of Bill Clinton, what if Obama governs to the right of Bill Clinton's right-leaning Bill Clinton and THEN what if Obama governs to the right of Obama? What a perfect description of politics today. Move to as far right as possible and make sure the fabric of your left-wing rhetoric is plenty elastic.

Lycra Liberals!

[XemaSab]

90. Damn.

:(

:P

[newmajority]

72. Wow, a concern troll with 33 posts

And out come the Hillbots to dogpile.

Almost as if they rehearsed the whole thing in Al From's conference room......

[Guava Jelly]

73. I have two worries about Clinton

1) She will be another McGovern .. BE swept into the nomination on a wave of passion and emotion.. then end up crashing and leading to a defeat in November..

2) She will be another Carter .. A very nice woman.. Honest president, but did not have the tools to play the game to get things done..

I love opinions...I hear everybody's got one these days

[patrick t. cakes]

74. Mc Cain is a political turd.

nobody wants him.

i predict land slide.

[VotesForWomen]

75. justified concerns. nt

[cooolandrew]

77. Barack " I am from Illinois so I know rough and tumble" He has to be nice now but not in the GE.

[cloudythescribbler]

84. Or maybe he'll forge a new model as prez-- w/comparisons to Prez Obama in subsequent decades ...

from the pundits and political observers in places like DU

(I am NOT predicting anything, mind you)

[BooScout]

87. I've been thinking of the lessons of McGovern a lot...

....lately. It's a big worry.

I just think that Obama could be crushed by the Republican Machine if he wins the nomination......and then there go the next 4 years.

[yeswecan08]

91. America needs Obama urgently - like now - no time to waste

[krabigirl]

93. why?

[Auntie Bush]

92. You and I think alike.

And I like the way you think!