Why does anyone think Clinton will kick GOP ass?

[Political Heretic]

Her husband certainly didn't. Instead he worked with them, and co opted a large number of their issues, to the detriment of many (TANF is unforgivable).

Clinton described himself as a centrist, also as a "pro-business pragmatist" who wanted to "reach across the isle."

Clinton politics brought us the doctrine of triangulation.

Clinton was successful specifically because he repeatedly capitulated to the conservative agenda. Hillary Clinton has described herself as having few political differences of opinion from her husband. So so far I see absolutely nothing to suggest that she would some how "kick GOP ass" in the White House.

[jackson_dem]

1. Obama supports Clinton's welfare reform

Why? Because the Clintons have beaten the rethugs for 16 years. They have proven their toughness and Hillary is read to lead. No one can be concerned about Hillary being to wussy to win or Hillary winning, having good intentions but sucking as a president because of inexperience.

Let's compare Clenis to Obama



Instead he worked with them, and co opted a large number of their issues, to the detriment of many (TANF is unforgivable).

Obama supports Bill's welfare "reform." Obama is running on working with them and has co opted the rethugs on Social Security and education.

Clinton described himself as a centrist, also as a "pro-business pragmatist" who wanted to "reach across the isle."

Like Barack.

Clinton politics brought us the doctrine of triangulation.

Present? Obama is a triangulator too.

[Jim Sagle]

13. What you're saying is, we don't have any good choices left.

;(

[boppers]

30. Uhm... confused.

So, the last 8 years were, uh... the Clintons winning?

[jackson_dem]

33. The rethugs haven't beaten the Clintons since 1980

[boppers]

36. I must be confused.

How (and what) did the Clintons win 8 years ago?

Oh, I get it. Not playing in the game counts as a "win".


edit: not-playing=win

[jlake]

2. By the way, your criticisms of Bill are what Obama is promising to do.

[Political Heretic]

5. That's fine. Just answer the question.

[jlake]

9. Hillary is not Bill. She is the brains behind the operation - she will

pummel the GOP. She will call them out and beat them on the issues.

[jackson_dem]

15. Edwards has had a chance to size up Hillary and Obama up close

None of us has been on a debate stage with them. Edwards has and I respect his apparent assessment, something I long believed about Obama's lack of toughness. If he thinks she will pummel the rethugs he likely knows something we don't.

[jlake]

17. I am really hoping that Edwards has struck a deal and will endorse Hillary.

I know that some are criticizing John as "unethical" for trying to "sell" his support for a position - but we need him, and I think Hillary does too.

[jackson_dem]

24. Only in the blogosphere

In the real world folks know Hillary is a good Democrat and will bring change (as would Obama but you can't bring change if you lose). If she was what Du thinks she is she would be loved by the rethugs but the thing they fear the most is Hillary taking the oath of office on 1/20/09. Obama is the one they love. Who is rethug lite again? :crazy:

[avaistheone1]

34. "What you said"

:thumbsup:

[jackson_dem]

7. Why can't they see that?

It is so obvious. The hate of the Clenis is irrational. Just because you hate the Clenis does not mean someone not named Clinton is automatically different.

[ingac70]

3. Bill was the best Republican President we ever had.

What Republicans used to be, really.

[Big Blue Marble]

6. Actually he may have been a little to the right of Nixon. n/t

[jackson_dem]

10. He was. So is Barack

;)

Both may even be to the right of Eisenhower.

[Big Blue Marble]

16. In many regards sadly I think you are right.

Funny I almost mentioned Eisenhower in my post above as illustration too!

[ingac70]

14. Nixon was a scary SOB...

but I give him his props for the EPA and signing OSHA into law.

He also tried to get some semblance of National Health, to no avail.

[Big Blue Marble]

18. And he also instituted price controls to ease inflation.

Can you imagine the howl on Wall Street now if a Democratic Prez did that.

In addition to all these things you and I have listed,
he introduced the negative income tax to help support the working poor.

Actually, if he had not serious mental problems such as paranoia, he might have been
by today's standards a decent president. It turned out he was his own worst enemy.

[ingac70]

22. His paranoia wasn't all though...

I've read alot about his mob ties. I think he drove himself nuts with his shadiness.

[provis99]

37. heck, Nixon nearly brought in the Negative Income Tax

which would have guaranteed a minimum standard of living for all Americans. Today, the Republicans would have written Nixon off as a socialist. Funny how a guy as paranoid and evil as Nixon could still turn out programs like that.

[Big Blue Marble]

4. Because that is what they want to believe.

Enough said.

[Thrill]

8. Hillary has NO chance against McCain

Repukes will be energized. She doesn't attract independents. And she isn't going to get enough Men support. Watch how many Repuke ads come out of her crying. And calling her weak. The election will be over before it starts

[McCamy Taylor]

11. Hillary is not running on "character" so Karl Rove's attacks can't hurt her.

[Big Blue Marble]

19. It will not be character they will attack her on.

It will be Bill. It will be her ability to be commander and chief. It will be about firing up their base.

It will be about her being a woman. It will be really ugly.

[tularetom]

12. She has "stood up to the right wing machine" mostly by agreeing with them

I like how she stood up to them on the Iraq war resolution, on that swell flag burning constitutional amendment she cosponsored, and most recently on the godawful Joe Loserman sponsored resolution targeting Iran.

bill Clinton stood up to the right wing machine by dropping the investigation into the Iran Contra scandals and refusing to investigate the sleazy leaving office pardons of bush I.

It's always amazed me how anyone can make a statement like that with a straight face. The Clintons are only "tough" when dealing with other Dems. They're the most spineless people in the world when it comes to standing up to republicans.

[Dogmudgeon]

25. Where did you get your I-C lies from?

Clinton had nothing to do with the disposition of Iran-Contra.

He also had no authority to investigate George Bush's pardons -- they were protected by the Constitution. Incidentally, the pardons ended all Iran-Contra legal activity.

Your statement about Clinton being "spineless" is inane. Didn't you turn on the TV or read the news during the 1990s? Every few weeks, Clinton had Newt Gingrich ranting and raving at a news conference about him.

I could half understand it if you're under 25. But most of this stuff can be found online; you just have to look around for it.

--p!

[MADem]

20. She has NO secrets. It's all been dug out and tossed already.

Obama is a great big unknown. The GOP aren't going to handle him with kid gloves, or worry about being "mean" to him.

If they can find someone who did coke with him, who will, for a few bucks, make it seem to be more than it was....if they can find an old girlfriend or an illegitimate kid or any of that "juicy" salacious stuff, maybe an arrest, A DUI, anything, they WILL dig, dig, dig and then they'll toss, toss, toss. Of course they'll have people pipe up about how SHOCKED and OUTRAGED they are.

And all that Hope and Change bullshit will turn into "I did not have sexual relations..." or "That's not my kid...." or "I did not use THAT much cocaine..."

And then the story isn't about the campaign, it's about the candidate's shortcomings.

The GOP excels at putting people on the defensive and making the candidate respond to charges. If he tries to play the "Above the Fray" routine, well, ask John Forbes Kerry how well that shit worked for him.

You assume that Senator Clinton's politics are exactly the same as her husband's. I think you assume too much, frankly.

[rodeodance]

23. Simple--Hillary is a strong woman in her right and no one can take that from her.

[MADem]

28. Certainly, that, too!!! And the fact that she has been vetted makes it impossible to

go after her with any new revelations.

[boppers]

31. Yeah, cuz the media...

*TOTALLY* killed the presidency of a coked up, multi-DUI, cheating, lying asswipe (can I say that here)?...who is now the pResident.

Of course, part of the hidden assumption in all of this is that "every candidate is equally dirty", which seems to me like a false assumption.

Scenario 1: Hillary is cleaner than Obama. Turns out that not only have his prior business connections committed suicide while under investigation, but they also had a stash of child-porn and dead babies in their basement.

Definitely, Hillary is a better case.

Scenario 2: Obama is cleaner than Hillary. While legions of new material *can* and *will* be dug up about Obama interacting with shady characters, defending people who turned out to be horrible, it won't resonate quite as deeply.

Obama wins there, because it's not as bad as Hillary.

Scenario 3: They have equally dirty histories.

This is where it's kind of interesting.

Are people tired of the old scandal, and want new ones?
Are people more comfortable with the old scandal, and fearful of the new ones?

I know where my vote is, but that's because I hate watching re-runs.

Other folks seem to keep M.A.S.H. on the air forever.

[MADem]

38. You aren't taking my point at all.

Of COURSE the BushCo media ignored the chimp. That's what they DO. And they did it because he was THEIR BOY.

I repeat this until I am blue in the face, but it just doesn't resonate--the media is wrapped up, in, and around the military-industrial complex. They are the Propaganda Arm of Those Who Make Money From War.


It's not in their interest to let ANYONE in the door who is gonna fuck with their bottom line. MSGOP, the NBC-Universal-GE family...GE, top ten Pentagon contractor, GE, We Bring Good Wars to Life...

That's why Clinton has to GO. That's why Tweety, Russert and Shuster are going at her full bore. There's no 'new' crap to throw at her, and even if there were, people would suspect the motives of the shit-flinger straight away. They can't have her interfering with their bottom line two months after taking office.

It is helpful to appreciate that FACTS aren't important to these media types--FAIRNESS isn't important either. Read David Brock's Blinded By The Right--he is the first to tell us, shamefacedly, that he made shit up when he did that trash-piece book on Anita Hill.

A lie travels halfway around the world before the truth rolls out of bed and puts its pants on, after all.

You wait--if Obama makes it to the show, the media is gonna make sure he grows horns and a tail and turns into a wicked, evil, mendacious bastard who has smacked his wife at least once, fooled around, and neglected his kids. They'll pull people out of the woodwork who will tell fantasy stories about him stealing quarters from little old ladies as a ten year old, or stealing liquor from the neighbor next door. They will assault his character. It's what they DO. They'll take a shred of truth, and hang a big lie on it. If he dated a girl in college, next thing you know he'll have knocked her up and forced her to get an abortion.

Then, instead of talking about issues (which he hasn't done much of YET--so he's going to HAVE to do that in the general) he'll be rocked back on his heels in "Denial Land." And he'll HAVE to deny--we saw how that "Staying above the fray" shit worked for Kerry--not.

It won't just be a SWIFT BOAT scenario. It'll be to the Tenth Power--and then some.

It wasn't with Kerry, either--though people forget. Flip flop, For it Before Against it, snipes about Teresa, rumors about them fighting and Teresa holding the purse strings...it was vicious.

Don't you remember the mendacious "INTERN SCANDAL" lie about Kerry and his assistant? A girl who worked for him who was conveniently a zillion miles away in Kenya? That took up almost a WEEK of the campaign--"Kerry MISTRESS, Alexandra Polier!!!!" It was a complete fucking LIE. Didn't stop 'em, though, did it? Ate up the news cycle for DAYS.

Here, read all about that:

http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/politics/national/features/9221/

It's what THEY do. The more blank the slate, the easier it is to write crap on it.

[boppers]

39. Wow. Just wow.

Thanks for that link (and your perspective) MADem. Quite an eye opener.

I guess that the best Obama can do at this point is to "Hope for Peace, but Prepare for War".

:hide:

[Raydawg1234]

21. The conservative 'evangelical' base is not united behind McCain.

However, if Hillary is the nominee, they will be united in their hatred for the Clintons and back McCain.

[SammyWinstonJack]

26. Holy crap! Obama thinks he can work with repubs. WTF?

He campaigns on working with repubs! Again, :wtf: What the hell would be the difference? :spank: Should have backed Edwards! :dunce:

[boppers]

35. MLK believed he could work with whites. Ghandi believed he could work ...

...with the british. Lincoln believed he could work with the south. JFK believed he could work with the USSR.

Your point?

That it will be difficult?

[Quixote1818]

27. And according to TIME Magazine it was Hillary who told Bill to cave for political reasons

:puke:

[Proud2BAmurkin]

29. The Clintons kicked it three times

[johnnydrama]

32. obviously

Some people think that not being convicted, or not resigning means that the Clintons beat the GOP.

Far from it.