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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 10:59 AM
Original message
If Paul Krugman Should Stick to Economics...
as is commonly asserted lately, does that mean that Susan Sarandon and Robert DeNiro should stick to acting and Oprah should stick to interviewing people with bizarre personal lives?

Or could it be that all of these bright, engaged people are free to express opinions that might contradict those of some DUers?
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russian33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
1. oh, oh, oh, can i answer? can i answer?
choice number 2..

"all of these bright, engaged people are free to express opinions that might contradict those of some DUers"

cause you know, land of the free and all that :)
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
2. If he's going to make bizarre "cult" claims and insult every Obama supporter, yes. Here
February 10, 2008
Economic View

When Self-Interest Isn’t Everything

By ROBERT H. FRANK
TRADITIONAL economic models assume that people are self-interested in the narrow sense. If “homo economicus” — the stereotypical rational actor in these models — finds a wallet on the sidewalk, he keeps the cash inside. He doesn’t leave tips after dining in restaurants that he will never visit again. And he would never vote in a presidential election, much less make an anonymous donation of money or time to a presidential campaign.

This posture stems from the so-called free-rider problem, a cornerstone of rational-choice theory. The problem, as described by Mancur Olson in his classic book, “The Logic of Collective Action,” is that even those who share a presidential candidate’s policy goals will reap no significant material advantage by donating their time or money. After all, with cash donations legally capped at $2,300, even donors who give the maximum have no realistic hope of influencing an election’s outcome. Nor can any individual volunteer — even one whose efforts resulted in hundreds of additional votes for his candidate — realistically hope to tip an election.

Although the logic of the free-rider problem may seem compelling, people’s behavior strikingly contradicts many of its predictions. Last month alone, for example, the presidential campaign of Senator Barack Obama raised over $32 million from more than 250,000 individual donors and sent huge numbers of volunteers into the field. (Disclosure: I’m an Obama contributor myself.) Other campaigns have benefited in similar, if less spectacular, ways from their supporters’ willingness to set narrow self-interest to one side.

Die-hard proponents of self-interest models sometimes counter that by becoming involved in campaigns, volunteers reap a variety of personal advantages. They often meet interesting people, for example, or they may learn about attractive employment opportunities. Major donors, for their part, are often rewarded with ambassadorships or other prominent positions when their candidate wins.

Fair points, especially when applied to “bundlers” — those donors who assemble contributions totaling hundreds of thousands of dollars from friends and associates. But what about the millions of others who make small cash donations? The elderly South Carolina woman who sent her chosen candidate a money order for $3.01 surely did not expect to be appointed ambassador to the Court of St. James next January. And what about the volunteers who staff phone banks from home, or who perform other tasks that offer little opportunity for social interaction?

When viewed through the lens of traditional self-interest models, such behavior is equivalent to the impossible geological phenomenon of rivers flowing uphill. It often seems to entail a yearning to participate in something larger than oneself and is by no means limited to the political domain. Fans of sports teams, for example, often seem oblivious to the standard cost-benefit calculations, as do the followers of certain rock bands.

Researchers at the intersection of economics, psychology, sociology and other disciplines have had interesting things to say about the anomaly inherent in collective action. Albert O. Hirschman, an economist at the Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton, was one of the first to grapple seriously with it. In his 1982 book “Shifting Involvements,” he acknowledges that self-interest indeed appears to be the dominant human motive in some eras. But over time, he argues, many people begin to experience disappointment as they continue to accumulate material goods. When consumption standards escalate, people must work harder just to hold their place. Stress levels rise. People become less willing to devote resources to the public sphere, which begins to deteriorate. Against this backdrop, disenchanted consumers become increasingly receptive to appeals from the organizers of social movements.

Eventually, Mr. Hirschman argues, a tipping point is reached. In growing numbers, people peel away from their private rat race to devote energy to collective goals. The free-rider problem ceases to inhibit them, not only because they now assign less value to private consumption, but also because they find satisfaction in the very act of contributing to the common good. Activities viewed as costs by self-interest models are thus seen as benefits instead.

In Mr. Hirschman’s account, a similar dynamic governs the pursuit of collective action. Although social movements often command substantial allegiance for many years, at some point their supporters’ commitment begins to falter. One reason for this, perhaps, is that the bar that defines morally praiseworthy behavior shifts with context: when growing numbers of people actively dedicate themselves to the pursuit of civic virtue, it becomes harder to earn moral approval by volunteering. When some discouraged volunteers abandon the social movement to resume pursuing private accumulation, remaining adherents feel increasing pressure to do likewise. And at that point the cycle is set to repeat.

From an informal survey of 20th-century American social movements, Mr. Hirschman concluded that these cycles have an average duration of about 20 years. But sometimes patterns take much longer to recur.

Many people have likened the response to Mr. Obama’s appeal for civic engagement to the response to similar appeals by President John F. Kennedy during the 1960s. Then, as now, many economists were skeptical. The Nobel laureate Milton Friedman, for example, began the opening chapter of his 1962 book, “Capitalism and Freedom,” by quoting the already-famous passage from Kennedy’s inaugural address in which he said, “Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.” Mr. Friedman seemed to find the statement unintelligible, or at any rate not “worthy of the ideals of free men in a free society.”

“The free man,” he wrote, “will ask neither what his country can do for him, nor what he can do for his country.”

SOME economists seem similarly baffled by the exuberance inspired by the Obama candidacy. But while homo economicus may be unresponsive to calls for sacrifice for the common good, the plain fact is that many people find such calls compelling.

Self-interest is surely an important human motive, perhaps even the most important motive much of the time. But it is never the only important motive. And during at least some moments in history, narrow self-interest models miss the essential story line completely. This may be one of those moments.




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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Has this fellow every read any history of politics? Krugman has it correct - and"friends w/ GOP"will
Edited on Tue Feb-12-08 11:06 AM by papau
not accomplish anything
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Maybe you should tell that to Hillary and Bill:
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
19. Being civil and liking each other personally is not begging for his vote changing changing your
legislation to make the fellow happy.

you can kiss single payer openings like the Hillary/Edwards mandatory offer of a Medicare like policy to everyone away - far far away - if Obama is elected and the GOP offer to come on board if he dropped the idea


And Obama will make a great speech about how great the new voluntary program is and how sad he is that Congress would not give him that single payer thing that he really really wanted.
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
3. If more people paid attention-
Or at least read and listened to Paul Krugman, we wouldn't be it this mess right now. There's a real danger of people attacking the messenger here. The people I've believed in all my life, believed in my candidate, it's call consistency.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
5. I don't think the argument is that he should stick to economics
Edited on Tue Feb-12-08 11:09 AM by alcibiades_mystery
The argument is that you can't lend as much weight to his meandering opinion-mongering about "cults of personality" and the like that you could lend to his economic thought. I would, in this case, say the same about DeNiro and Sarandon. If they're talking about the craft of acting, their positions are fairly authoritative. If they're talking about politics, they have an opinion about as authoritative as any other.

The problem is that people who agree with Krugman keep citing his PhD in economics as if that means fuck all when it comes to his opinion about "cults of personality." It does not mean fuck all. Krugman has as much authority on this subject as he has on recombinant DNA research: very little other than what most educated people can garner through reasonable cultural awareness. So, his PhD in Economics isn't a qualification for the relative merits of his arguments.

That doesn't mean he should stop making his argument. He's entitled, as are Sarandon and DeNiro. It means that people like you should stop trying to support his argument on this question by pointing to his PhD.

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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. or his Bates Medal . . .
:eyes:
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #8
18. He received a Bates medal for pontifications on media and political campaigns?
Wow. I thought he received it for his economics studies!

:rofl:
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. I was adding a phrase to your last sentence
"It means that people like you should stop trying to support his argument on this question by pointing to his PhD - or his Bates Medal."
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. "people like you should stop trying to support his argument ..."
Could you please point me to a place where I have done that?

Thanks!
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #9
16. I said "people LIKE you,"
Not you. ;-)
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #5
24. I'm just going to sign off on this response.
/s/ ellisonz

:thumbsup:
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
7. The latter, of course but
. . . you are asking the wrong question. The question is whether Krugman's view has any merit. Since he appears to be comparing Barack to Nixon and Obama supporters to cult members, the answer is no. And that's why he should stick to economics.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. "comparing Barack to Nixon "
Does comparing Hillary to Nixon render one's opinions invalid?
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. I don't think Hillary is like Nixon nt
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. I don't either.
But there is a wildly popular thread here that does just that. Frankly, I wish we were more into attacking Republicans around here.
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. Well that's ridiculous
and I don't support it.

But Krugman is worse. He has basically called almost 8 million Barack voters "cultists." That's just plain ignorant.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. delete
Edited on Tue Feb-12-08 11:22 AM by QC
wrong place
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
14. Krugman: one of the 2 people that openly stood up to W all these years
Edited on Tue Feb-12-08 11:34 AM by robbedvoter
The other one - Joseph Wilson. I trust them both based on their record and courage. They both endorsed Hillary.
Krugman had a book out about Bushco's coup - seems DU wasn't against his dabbling in politics THEN.Some of his efforts:
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?WRD=Paul+Krugman&z=y
The Conscience of a Liberal, and before that. The Great Unraveling
"n this long-awaited work, award-winning economist and columnist Paul Krugman challenges us to take on George Bush and the radical right."

BTW, Krugman is hardly a surrogate for Hillary. In his opinion, her health plan is only marginally better than Obama. he is an honest journalist - and kicking him - only shows lack of integrity of those who do.
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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
15. Lol, no, because they didn't question Obama. :)
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
17. He can express opinions. It's only disappointing that he's cashing in his credibility
to support his candidate in such a juvenile manner.
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
20. Since when do Susan Sarandon and Robert DeNiro have
Columns in major newspapers? As for Oprah, I'd say it's past time for her to retire.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
23. the analogy would be appropriate if Krugman were
auditioning for a part in the next Scorsese film.

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