Okay, you all are ging to have to admit this is funny: Kerry saying how Obama will fight .........

[Stinky The Clown]

...... swiftboating

On MSNBC at 12.45 pm.

I have to believe they could have found a better spokesmodel.

[grantcart]

1. they asked him a question about it after running a clip of Hillary saying she would

handle it better

[rodeodance]

33. so Kerry followed Clinton. ha ha

[rodeodance]

34. so Kerry followed Clinton. ha ha

[ProSense]

37. I wonder if she meant "better" as in the way she's handling her campaign?

Now that's funny, considering she couldn't even win Iowa and suffered an embarrassing defeat in SC!

[blm]

2. Kerry DID fight enough - Dem SPOKESPEOPLE in 2004 would NOT. Ever see Bush defend

himself in 2004? Nope. RNC, GOP lawmakers, and RW message machine did it all for him.

How did the DNC, Dem lawmakers and the left media do?

Kerry fought FOR Clinton in 92 when he was attacked as a draft dodger - Kerry used HIS cache as wa r hero to defend Clinton.

How did Clinton reciprocate throughout 2003-4?


By backstabbing:

http://www.depauw.edu/news/index.asp?id=13354

By using Bill's 3wk book tour in 2004 to defend BUSH's decisions on Iraq:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/06/19/clinton.iraq/

By Carville sabotaging Ohio Dem voters on election night:
http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/2006/oct/07/did_carville_tip_bush_off_to_kerry_strategy_woodward


And by piling on to join Bush's smears against Kerry:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk1k0nUWEQg

[iamjoy]

22. Very Interesting

I will have to read more on this later. I do know that because the Democratic convention was more than a month before the Repub one that left Kerry at a spending disadvantage. I kind of thought the DNC was supposed to pick up the slack.

[blm]

24. McAuliffe set it up SO the Dem nominee would be outspent in August.

McAuliffe's job was to KEEP the Dem party infrastructure too weak to perform in key states like Ohio. He ceded the security of the election process at every level where the votes are allowed, cast and counted to the RNC for his entire four year stewardship of the party.

[MBS]

23. thank you for bringing facts to this thread , blm n/t

[flpoljunkie]

25. Not only that, the media put the Swiftboat liars and their ads on at every opportunity!

[MBS]

30. exactly-- the complicity of the media was also a very

important, even crucial, factor.

[blm]

32. Dan Rather said corpmedia NEEDED Bush to stay in office for the favorable rulings

they had been promised.

They all KNEW Kerry was AGAINST their expansion.

[karynnj]

38. True - though Kerry has said in retrospect that they should have put more money behing the truth

I am not sure that wourl have helped. It might have actually made things more he said - they said. the problem was the media pretended their were 2 sides - Kerry vs the SBVT, when it was the NAVY RECORDS vs people getting money from Bush supporters out of Texas.

Does anyone thing it strange that the SBVT were NEVER asked for one piece of proof - certainly there would have been some telegram or report somewhere backing all of that. There was no real attempt to ask them why they lied then - even getting him the Brooklyn job that required a higher security clearance. No one asked if the ones in his line of command lied then, jeopardizing the country or in 2004 - for Bush.

The fact that the media treated the purple heart bandaids as novelties and expressed no revulsion shows where they were. No matter what you think of John Kerry - he, as a 25 year old, risked a life filled with promise and joy, every day he went on those canals - as did everyone with him. He wrote in his journal when he was hit the first time speaking of his awareness of how lucky he had been and noting a small difference in angle could have been devastating. It's pretty sad when his opponent's party years later would make fun of the real sacrifices he made and use that to hurt him politically.

It says more about where this country was in 2004, than it does about how Senator Kerry fought it. That there was no outcry about this suggests that large parts of the country were not listening.

[MBS]

50. Your last paragraph is exactly right.

I'll quote it again.

It says more about where this country was in 2004, than it does about how Senator Kerry fought it. That there was no outcry about this suggests that large parts of the country were not listening.

2004 was an uphill battle, from beginning to end. Given the state of our country at the time, it's actually amazing that Sen. Kerry did as well as he did. In the end, it's our country (or half our country) that's as much or more to blame for the outcome of 2004 than any particular issue of campaign strategy. History will not be kind to us.

[Bluerthanblue]

61. WORD-

I don't find the OP funny at all.

Thanks for pointing out the truth-

Many people let JK down on this- some who continue to use swiftboating against him today.

:nuke:

peace~

[shaniqua6392]

3. And he would not commit to voting for Clinton

since he is a super delegate even if she was ahead in the delegate count in Mass. and overall. So he will take his super delegate vote and give it to Obama even if he is not the front runner after April?? I would hope Obama would fight any swiftboating better than he did. My great grandma could put up more of a fight than Kerry.

[anamandujano]

9. So much for the will of the people.

I expect Obama and his flock to whine and whine if any other super does this.

[sniffa]

12. bye

[sandnsea]

13. Yes he did

He said the superdelegates should vote for the winner, whoever has the will of the people after all states have voted. Clear as day.

[RaleighNCDUer]

14. Never mind that the Democratic establishment, as exemplified by

Terry McAuliffe and the DLC, DISCOURAGED any attempt to fight. They thought it would look bad to have two contested elections in a row.







(Besides, McAuliffe and the DLC knew that Hillary would not have a chance if Kerry fought and won in 04. Not fighting guaranteed her shot at '08. Who is McAuliffe working for this time around?)

[sniffa]

15. It appears you lied

bye

[karynnj]

41. His answer was better than that

He said in the NYT that he did not think party insiders and politicians should change the opinion of the people - either way. That sounds to me like he will give his vote to the winner of the pledged delegates - whether it is Obama or HRC.

[H2O Man]

4. When Senator Kerry

was a young man, he did fight. And he fought the Good Fight. Maybe he recognizes that Senator Obama is also fighting the Good Fight.

[jackson_dem]

6. He didn't fight when we needed him the most

[blm]

35. He was already sabotaged by Dem powerstructure BEFORE election day.

http://www.depauw.edu/news/index.asp?id=13354


http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/06/19/clinton.iraq/


http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/2006/oct/07/did_carville_tip_bush_off_to_kerry_strategy_woodward

[AtomicKitten]

7. An excellent point on fighting the Good Fight.

And you have it exactly right.

[Olney Blue]

5. Well, Kerry said that a lesson had been learned- and the key to fighting

back the swiftboating will be MONEY- and lots of it. Obama is raising outside the federal system, so he will have the money to fight back.

Maybe Kerry was an OK spokesperson on this? He said many of his team are going to be giving Obama advice.

[Mass]

8. He is the best known to know how it is fight.He knows he listened to Democratic advisers

took public financing and was left without money to fight the SBVT, the media, and the silence of a large part of the party.

He certainly can explain that to Obama.

[anamandujano]

11. He won anyway, had millions for the post election fight and yet

rolled over.

[Mass]

20. Probably on the good advice of McAuliffe and Carville.

[Straight Shooter]

42. You're saying he can't think for himself, can't stand up for himself.

He let everyone else fight the election results and refuted a report that said he admitted the election was tampered with. I can't remember the name of the person who reported a conversation with Kerry, but Kerry immediately jumped out and basically said no, no, no, I never said the election was tampered with.

A real fighter, that one. His glory days were long, long ago. But yet I'm still defending his record to Repubs over the swiftboat attacks. I need to stop, it lends him credibility.

[Mass]

44. You mean that your candidate do not listen to advisers. I definitively do not want to support her.

I thought that McAuliffe and Mark Penn had a lot to do with the fiasco of her campaign, but apparently, she is the only one responsible. Good for her, but this frightens me. How to lose millions of dollars.

[Straight Shooter]

57. The discussion is about Kerry, not Hillary.

Eye on the ball, please. Stay focused.

[blm]

21. He didn't roll over - Carville MADE SURE the evidence he needed wouldn't be there

and McAuliffe made sure of that for four years he refused to secure the elction process.

Brinkley noted the backstabbing in 2004:
http://www.depauw.edu/news/index.asp?id=13354

Carville on election night sabotaging Ohio Dem voters:
http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/2006/oct/07/did_carville_tip_bush_off_to_kerry_strategy_woodward

[CitizenRob]

10. Are you sure Kerry's answer was that brief?

I'm sure his answer went something like this.

"If and when Obama might, or may, have to maybe, sometime, possibly, in the future, it may happen that, if it were to happen, Obama may very well have to, or at least try, or possibly think about trying, to defend himself, with reprisals, and aforementioned defenses of, without forethought or post thought, or in between thought, on defending in clear, concise, unambiguous, language, like I have to do, did, well do, have done, continue to do and well do in the future, past, present, near future, and far future, in between and so on and so forth...."

[Inuca]

19. Don't blame your limited comprehension skills on others n/t

[CitizenRob]

36. Oh no, I got it...

I just wished he could have found a more concise way to say things.

[karynnj]

43. No that is your incomprehensible answer - thus the quotes are not needed

Have fun - IMO, Kerry is one of the clearest, most straight forward people we have.

[CitizenRob]

60. which explains his inability to get his message across...

[Occam Bandage]

16. Yeah. Kerry learned, first-hand, the necessity of fighting swiftboating.

The man is a fighter. He's a war hero. He made an enormous tactical error in not fighting the swiftboating, but it's pretty obvious he learned a lesson there.

[sandnsea]

17. This is the exact kind of support Kerry got in 2004

Sneering condescension and joining in the ridicule the right was dishing out.

If the party gives Barack this kind of support, he won't be effective against the right wing either.

[beachmom]

18. Oh, for God's sake. More surrogate bashing. Notice how I wouldn't

THINK of bashing Bayh or Boxer or Glenn even.

Kerry understands swiftboating better than ANYONE. Lessons learned which will be passed on.

But really, bashing Kerry affects the election how?

[Stinky The Clown]

29. Its called 'irony'

Some of us who still have a sense of humor that hasn't been blunted by blind candidate fanaticism can still recognize and appreciate it.

[blm]

39. Considering the consequences of the media complicity to instill that impression it really ISN'T

funny to some of us. Though I do recognize that you do have a wonderful and warm sense of humor personally, and I doubt highly you intended any insult.

For me, I saw it as another opportunity to share what actually happened back then.

[Stinky The Clown]

56. You're right .......

.... no particular insult of anyone was intended. I truly found it funny that he would be speaking about that specific subject.

[blm]

58. Actually you AND beachmom are pragmatic types - neither a fanatical supporter

of anyone, and always ready to stick to whatever truth you know.

I think neither of you is familiar with the other's postings.

BUT while I have you here - this DU research thread should give the clearest picture POSSIBLE for those commited to accuracy and NOT swayed by media groupthink....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_oet&address=358x2555

[beachmom]

49. Not irony. Just sour grapes. nt

[Stinky The Clown]

54. "Sour grapes" implies I am a candidatimaniac.

Either prove that by linking to a thread where I cheer lead or admit you were wrong to jump to the stupid conclusion to which you did.

Here's a little clue ........ I am only undecided as to which of the two I dislike more.

So look before you leap and do some critical thinking. You're power to reason is obviously blunted by your fanatacism. Get a grip.

[Mass]

31. No, just people who are so uninformed the will swallow all the media tell them.

[BigDDem]

26. From the authority on fighting swiftboating!

:rofl:

[ProSense]

27. Hillary shill Taylor Marsh tried to claim it was "funny," but it isn't

"Kerry endorsed Barack because he's going to teach him to fight back."

Then she says:

Oh God. This had to be a joke. You're kidding, I assumed.

I guess she forgot her own words:

John Kerry Fights for Patrick Murphy

<...>

When Senator John Kerry heard about Fitzgerald swiftboating Murphy he minced no words.

<...>

John Kerry is standing beside Patrick Murphy because he knows how it feels. Kerry made a pledge after it happened to him that he would never let it happen to another veteran without him standing up and fighting back hard.

link

Patrick Murphy won!

When Kerry endorsed Obama, he didn't mince words. I suppose Taylor and the "funny' claim are signs of desperation!


On edit: Murphy endorsed Obama.

[karynnj]

28. Actually not - who knows better

What Kerry also likely knows, but will not likely say, is that the BEST defense is supplied not by the candidate answering the questions to the cameras, but others using the facts provided to defend the candidate. Kerry's email on countering the "Muslim emails" was an excellent way to use his and Obama's lists (and the address books of everyone who sent it on) to spread the truth on the same medium the lies were spread on - and they did spread far - a British resident with joint citizenship who is a friend of ours got it!

In 2004, the media was given more than enough to see that the official record backed Kerry 100% and the SBVT offered not one shred of proof. Certainly people - such as his VP and others - could have taken facts from the official tapes, Brinkley's book, or the Nixon tapes and hit back better than they did. They had top know that the Republicans were attempting to eliminate an asset Kerry had that showed his character and his courage.

As to HRC fighting back better, The vast majority of people now know that the SBVT lied and Kerry was a war hero. Nearly anyone likely to vote for Kerry knew this before the election. On many of the charges the RW made on the Clintons, there is NOT a similar generally excepted view that they have ALL been completely rejected. Even among Democrats, I have heard people admit that they are sloppy on campaign financing and there were some questionable actions like making $100,000 from an $1,000 cattle future investment.

Kerry did very effectively act as an Obama surrogate to counter Clinton's Iraq claims - which he did very nicely on This Week.

[Iceburg]

40. Sadly John didn't know how to deal with the GoP, Hillary does! /nt

[blm]

45. Really? How LONG did the Clintons trashed the WH story last? 9 months?

.

[beachmom]

48. Oh, really? What tough election did SHE win fighting off nasty RW smears?

She had two easy elections to be senator of a blue state. She didn't even get challenged the way Kerry was in '96 against the popular Mass. gov. Bill Weld. She, in fact, is untested. It was Bill Clinton who won those elections, not Hillary. NOT THE SAME THING, as he is a far more gifted politician (and, sadly, not a very good surrogate for her).

[karynnj]

59. That has not been proven

The CW is that the SBVT are liars. This means that, with the media against him, Senator Kerry did manage to convince most people that they were the ones lying. Even a conservative writer (a vet) in an article about McCain in my local paper spoke of how he believed Kerry's record. (The point he was making is that people will see through lies on McCain as he did on Kerry.)

What fight has HRC won with the RW media? Even with the platform of the WH, she did not obtain that same level of rejection of many lies - just the really outlandish ones like on Vince Foster.

As to fighting the GOP:

Kerry actually fought NIxon - and led to a change in the number of people against the Vietnam war. We know that Nixon people thought he was effective and the only anti-war person they feared - they said that.

Kerry fought Reagan when he investigated the Contras and found they were being illegally armed and funded through cocaine sales in the US.

Kerry fought BOTH PARTIES on BCCI.

So, how did the Clintons fight the GOP - they did get 2 terms in the WH - during which they did as much to meet Republican goals as they did Democratic ones.

[rodeodance]

46. The perception is that kerry was weak in attaching back--Its the perception that matters, so

say==kerry being the hit man is going to cause obama's camp some problems.

[blm]

51. Kerry makes a GREAT spokesperson and DEFENDER as he defended Bill in 1992 when he needed it.

Too bad Clintons would NOT reciprocate and instead chose to undermine Kerry throughout that campaign behind the scenes and sometimes in front of a camera.

BTW - HERE'S THE TRUTH in the DU Research Forum for anyone who CARES enough to know the truth about the actual mesures taken against the Swifts AND the obvius complicity of the corpmedia in downplaying or muting that defense.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_oet&address=358x2555

[Bluerthanblue]

62. again Word up BLM-

peace~

[rodeodance]

47. The perception is that kerry was weak in attaching back--Its the perception that matters, so

say==kerry being the hit man is going to cause obama's camp some problems.

[robbedvoter]

52. O'key do'key - now I am relieved. Of course, when Hillary does it, she is called

"playing victim" and most DU rallies in support of poor little GE unfairly attacked my the mighty Clintons! ("Free David Schuster!")

[stillcool]

53. It's funny that...

so many that are scared shitless about the GOP swift-boating tactics, scream 'whiner' whenever Obama tries to get ahead of some smear campaign against him. I think it's funny also that by the time people care about their votes being counted, there will be no votes to count. It's all very ironic.

[UALRBSofL]

55. I hate to admit it but the swiftboating started with a group of people from my town

We have a lot of retired military here in florida and they got together and started the smearing. I remember it well when it started.

[DrFunkenstein]

63. Unlike Some Democrats, Kerry Learns From His Mistakes

I am glad that people like Kerry and Edwards apologized for screwing up their IWR vote. It was a monumental f-up, but at least they had they dignity to admit it.