Obama Supports Charter Schools?

[RestoreGore]

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0208/8443.html

Taking a position that could help him win a general election, Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) said in an interview that the federal government should experiment with charter schools even if some Democrats oppose the idea.

In a joint interview with Politico WJLA/ABC 7, Obama was asked about issues on which he might oppose the mainstream of his party. Politico and WJLA also interviewed Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.); Obama refused an offer to debate Clinton, however.

“I’ve consistently said I think we need to support charter schools,” Obama said. “I think it’s important for us to experiment in terms of how teachers are compensated — working with teachers but looking at how we can reward excellence in classrooms.”
~~~
Charter schools, which have been proven in many cases to only increase segregation, lower test scores, and take funds from public schools? Charter schools where there is no guarantee you will even have certified teachers? Charter schools that are run by corporations to make a profit off of our children? Charter schools, which were favored by Bush in his miserable failure of a No Child left Behind Act? This is the position of a candidate of "change" not taking money from "lobbyists?" I knew there was something about him I didn't really like but couldn't put my finger on it. Now I see it. His policies from the environment to education to healthcare look more Republican lite as well the more I read up on them, and I definitely don't like this. The candidate of change wants to help privitize the public education system in America? I say, NO WAY. You know, I have no preference in this race anymore because frankly, I do not support corporate candidates. When John Edwards was pushed out my support for this went with him. But this truly enrages me... the fact that we may just get another "uniter not a divider" bs artist on our own side. Now of course, since all the other good candidates that cared about Progressive values were pushed out, what can a Democrat who doesn't want a Republican getting in do? Go to the polls in November and once again vote for their Republican lite picks in Progressive clothing? I'm sick of it I tell you. And after this November, I'm DONE.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

1. Uhm, I hate to break it to ya, but charter schools barely have lobbyists.

And they sure as hell aren't shelling out donations in large enough figures to sway anyone on anything. In fact, hardly anyone in education is shelling out money. As an education lobbyist myself, I feel I'm a pretty good source of information on that one.

[RestoreGore]

5. Really? prove it

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

7. Uhm, how in the hell do I prove a negative?

How bout you prove education lobbyists are shelling out thousands to campaigns?

[RestoreGore]

9. yes, how convenient for you

[anigbrowl]

23. It's basic logic...

...that you can't prove a negative. For example: Can you prove the earth WASN'T created by God? No you can't!

See? It's one thing to be opposed to charter schools, but making an argument of the form 'prove to me that X is not true' instantly marks the disputant as an idiot. So choose a better argument.

[RestoreGore]

27. How about giving your own opinion?

Or is dumping on someone easier so you don't have to?

[Nederland]

70. Obviously

...we are dealing with a product of public schools. Logic is a bit too much to ask...

[Forkboy]

45. Ok, prove to me there's no God.

[Straight Shooter]

75. I'll prove it with three words: "The Bush family."

At least that's proof enough for me.

[Forkboy]

76. heh

Works for me, but probably not for the scientific method. ;)

[demo dutch]

90. Speaking for the Bush family, did you know that Jeb Bush started

a foundation for further education in Florida. Charters have been one of the corner stones of his destruction of the Florida Public System, along with vouchers. He even founded the first charter in Miami. The majority of charters are run by as business by a business. They can pick and choose their students, unlike public schools who must accommodate every student including handicapped, special needs etc. The result is that charter schools take away money from the public system which desperately needs the funding to accommodate all the special programs. They are simply a back door to privatization.

The mere fact that Jeb Bush is involved should be an enormous red flag!

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

114. Convenient for me?

I didn't make the original claim that education lobbyists were buying politicians. That should be easy for you to prove though. Find the names of education lobbyists by going to education association websites and look them up at opensecrets.org. Are you lazy or do you have nothing to prove?

[Alexander]

10. RG can't prove a single bullshit claim.

As usual.

[RestoreGore]

12. And as usual you're here with nothing to offer

[Alexander]

21. All you do is bitch about progressive candidates and make bullshit claims.

I am quite happy to compare my posting history here with yours. You've bounced from one thread to another attacking people for supporting good Democrats for president, and that's pretty much it.

Look out, RG. Here comes your ride.

[RestoreGore]

22. If it's BS refute it instead of showing what an immature ass you are

You don't do your "candidate" any service by your behavior here.

[Alexander]

29. Refute your claim, which you haven't sourced or cited?

Sounds like you've done a pretty good job of refuting your own bullshit.

The burden of proof is on you. Now get your head out of your ass and go find us some evidence.

"You don't do your "candidate" any service by your behavior here."

You were never going to vote for him anyway, or any other Democrat. Nobody cares about your opinion.

[WCGreen]

113. The main Union has not endorsed yet....

[Nederland]

19. The burden is on you

You are claiming that education lobbyists are shelling out thousands to campaigns. Fair enough. Go to http://www.opensecrets.org/ and show us.

[RestoreGore]

25. Where did I claim that?

"Charter schools, which have been proven in many cases to only increase segregation, lower test scores, and take funds from public schools? Charter schools where there is no guarantee you will even have certified teachers? Charter schools that are run by corporations to make a profit off of our children? Charter schools, which were favored by Bush in his miserable failure of a No Child left Behind Act? This is the position of a candidate of "change" not taking money from "lobbyists?" I knew there was something about him I didn't really like but couldn't put my finger on it. Now I see it. His policies from the environment to education to healthcare look more Republican lite as well the more I read up on them, and I definitely don't like this. The candidate of change wants to help privitize the public education system in America? I say, NO WAY. You know, I have no preference in this race anymore because frankly, I do not support corporate candidates. When John Edwards was pushed out my support for this went with him. But this truly enrages me... the fact that we may just get another "uniter not a divider" bs artist on our own side. Now of course, since all the other good candidates that cared about Progressive values were pushed out, what can a Democrat who doesn't want a Republican getting in do? Go to the polls in November and once again vote for their Republican lite picks in Progressive clothing? I'm sick of it I tell you. And after this November, I'm DONE."

I think some of you see what you want to see so you don't have to discuss the actual OP.

[Nederland]

34. I'm sorry

I was under the impression that you disagreed with post #1. Glad to see that you agree that charter schools barely have lobbyists.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

117. "This is the position of a candidate of "change" not taking money from "lobbyists?" "

Checkmate.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

49. SO WHAT? HE supports Non Charter Schools too

who gives a rats ass, really?

[RestoreGore]

56. I do. You don't then don't respond in threads you don't care about

[NashVegas]

91. They Have the Chamber of Commerce Backing Them

In my town ... maybe it's mostly on the local level?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

115. Believe me - the Chamber isn't buying politicians for schools.

They BARELY give a rat's ass on education.

[NashVegas]

119. They Care About What Future Employees Those Schools Turn Out

CoC *owns* the Board in Nashville.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

121. It's still not that high on their priority list. (nt)

[sandnsea]

2. John Edwards supports charter schools

Across America, there are public schools that are helping children from all backgrounds succeed, including traditional public schools, public charter schools, small schools, and other models.

http://www.johnedwards.com/news/headlines/20070921-education-agenda/

[RestoreGore]

8. He's not in this now. Are you for them then?

[sandnsea]

15. There are some great charters

and magnets. Why don't you learn something instead of just attack attack attack. This is exactly what Obama is talking about. Drawing lines in the sand without even considering the possiblity of improvement with an alternative school. I would have loved to have sent my kids to a school with a more creative and liberal environment than the public schools offer. Everything new doesn't mean it will be right wing. Some people home school for the same reasons. STOP labeling.

[RestoreGore]

31. If BUSH supports it, I don't

And I don't support those who push anything he is for either. And FYI, criticizing the position of a candidate is not attacking, and on this score it was initially primarily a Republican idea. But a thousand apologies for daring to give an opinion of St. Obama other than one that is glowing.

And should that charter school be closed or go bust because funds run out or performance not be up to par per their charter, then where do those children go? Especially inner city children that have no other options? How totally hypocritical for people here who more than likely rightfully trashed Bush to the depths for supporting this now praising Obama for it. It is obvious then that the real substance behind this or any other issue is simply not going to be discussed here, but it does show a disturbing pattern.

[sandnsea]

41. Albert Shanker

http://www.shankerinstitute.org/homepage.html

http://www.ncrel.org/sdrs/areas/issues/envrnmnt/go/93-2locl.htm

[RestoreGore]

47. Oh wow, more links

I am against charter schools for the reasons I described and especially because of their lack of accountability. Links won't change that.

[sandnsea]

54. Reading is how we learn

Try it.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

51. Bush breathes air too, so you better stop that next n/t

[mckeown1128]

81. Your logic is lacking.

First of all use the fact that Bush supports them is a BS reason. Bush doesn't support shooting puppies..(just people)... so does that mean that you will start shooting puppies.

You complain that if money runs out for charter schools that they will close. You ask where will those children go... they would go back to a regular public school. You used the fact that they would go to a typical regular public school if the the charter school fails...as a reason they should go to the typical public school in the first place. THAT... is not logical. People trashed Bush not for this but for Vouchers...which is something totally different.

[demo dutch]

37. Charter Schools are designed to kill Public education, the corner stone of

this nation, because they self-governing public schools, often run by private companies, which operate outside the authority of local school boards.

[sandnsea]

42. That is not the original concept of charters

http://www.shankerinstitute.org/homepage.html

http://www.ncrel.org/sdrs/areas/issues/envrnmnt/go/93-2locl.htm

[demo dutch]

46. No but that's how the majority of them are run. They have been

freed from some of the rules, regulations, and statutes that apply to other public schools. Most of them are "a Business" that get public money

[sandnsea]

68. They have rules, there are for profit and nonprofit

They're all different. They only teach 2.5% of our kids. They've been on the scene 20 years. I think a better argument would be to point out that all these models and talk about charters, magnets and vouchers have not improved our public schools that still teach 90% of our kids. We still have to fix our public schools.

[demo dutch]

94. Most often it's a back door to privatization. In Florida for example

when the charter school fails, the next step is to give parents a voucher. It's has been Jeb Bush's sneaky plan. He even set up a foundation recently to further this movement.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

106. Charter Schools haven't killed any schools in my state n/t

[elixir]

102. In our city, the formula used to allocate state funds to charters is skewed grossly to their advanta

ge thereby hurting the budget of the public schools. Some teachers are not certified, some regulations are not enforced on them, and many times the testing is not equal to the expectations of publics. If we want to see charters we need to make it equitable for publics.

[salin]

124. opposite is true in my state

charter's get about 30-40% less than traditional pubilc schools. In your state the charter's don't have to participate in the state testing program? Or am I misreading and you are saying their test scores are lower? Either would be a concern to me were I a parent. Here the charters have mixed recorts (on the state test) appear to do better than most of the urban public schools - and some, but not all, of the suburban schools.

[Nederland]

3. I don't understand this

I live in Boulder CO, one of the most liberal places you'll find anywhere, and we've got lots of charter schools that work really well. Perhaps the way ours are funded are different from the ones you had experience with, because here the money follows the student. Charter schools only get money when they attract students, if they don't attract any students, they don't get any money.

[demo dutch]

39. Charter schools are designed to kill Public Education, the cornerstone

of this country, because they self-governing public schools, often run by private companies, which operate outside the authority of local school boards. Your state is the exception when it comes to funding the charter schools.

[Nederland]

58. Not true

Your state is the exception when it comes to funding the charter schools.

Across the country charter schools on average receive 20% less money per pupil than public schools. In some cases, like in California, it's even less than that. The notion that charter schools take money from public schools is not supported by the facts.

[demo dutch]

96. Most often it's a back door to privatization. In for example when the charter school fails

,the next objection is to push for parents to receive a voucher. In other state and particular in Florida, that has been Jeb Bush's sneaky plan.

By the way Nederland, are you from Nederland?

[Nederland]

108. I was

I moved back down to the "flats" (Boulder) after my daughter was born. Mountain living wasn't the same after having a kid...

[Mz Pip]

4. There are some charter schools

around here and they aren't run by corporations. They are public schools. Don't assume all charter schools are run by corporations.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[jackson_dem]

6. Yes, and "pay for performance" for teachers

Both are ideas championed in our party by you know who. Yes. The entity known by three letters. The DEEE LEEEEEE CEEEEEE itself!

[mzmolly]

11. My state is loaded with "Public" Charter schools. Most are very successful and are not at all like

you describe above. I don't have a problem with this position as long as the Public School system remains strong and supported. :shrug:

[RestoreGore]

16. it hasn't been in every case

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=886
(granted, this is from the late nineties, but it illustrates my point.)

And the other point is, that for someone who claims he is against lobbyists, I would think this would prove otherwise.

[anigbrowl]

24. If the majority of charter schools do a good job...

(and I think that they do), it's foolish to judge charter schools in general by the few that do a bad job or are badly run. Likewise, while I support public schools, it's readily apparent that there is something seriously wrong with the public school system, and throwing good money after bad isn't necessarily going to improve it.

[RestoreGore]

62. You think they do?

But you don't really know that do you? And yes, there is something wrong with the public school system, but taking more money from it to put it into other public schools that do leave children behind as well doesn't seem to me to be a way to solve the problem. If we are FOR public schools then we need to HELP THEM.

[mzmolly]

111. But, I don't think that the problem is Charter schools per se?

However, I share the concerns noted in the article. I don't agree with privatizing education.

[demo dutch]

44. Charter Schools are designed to kill Public Education, the corner

stone of this nation, because they self-governing public schools, often run by private companies, which operate outside the authority of local school boards.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

52. this is the fourth (4th) time you posted the same message on this thread

ITS CALLED SPAM!

[demo dutch]

57. I feel strongly, because people don't get it. The majority of them are run like

"a Business" by "a Business". They have been freed from some of the rules, regulations, and statutes that apply to other public schools, and they get public money. This is how Jeb Bush has tried to destroy the public education system in Florida by vouchers and charter schools. He founded the first Bush co-founded the first charter school in the State of Florida. Now that he's out of office, he even started a foundation.

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20080116/NEWS/801160722/1017/NEWS0501

When Jeb Bush is involved ... Let, me tell you, It's a bad sign!!!!

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

65. well the problem is that posting the same msg repeatedly is against DU rules and wastes bandwith too

[demo dutch]

66. Sorry

[mzmolly]

109. Well, they are not succeeding in killing anything in Minnesota.

Though, they do have oversight by local school boards.

[mzmolly]

110. deleted dup

;)

[countingbluecars]

13. Are you confusing charter schools

with a voucher system?

[RestoreGore]

18. No, I know what I'm talking about

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/17/education/17charter.html?ex=1250395200&en=ff8de1a154903cf8&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland

[Exultant Democracy]

30. ...

:rofl:

[demo dutch]

36. Charter Schools are designed to kill Public Education, the cornerstone of this nation

because they self-governing public schools, often run by private companies, which operate outside the authority of local school boards.

[madrchsod]

14. really?

http://www.ren2010.cps.k12.il.us/
Chicago Public Schools: Renaissance 2010

http://www.ppionline.org/ppi_ci.cfm?contentid=253368&knlgAreaID=110&subsecid=134
PPI: Chasing the Blues Away: Charter Schools Scale Up in Chicago by Robin J. Lake and Lydia Rainey

http://www.chicagointl.org/
Main Page | Chicago International Charter School

it`s worked in chicago....

[RestoreGore]

32. Well good for Chicago

But on the whole, they have reportedly underachieved.

[mopinko]

133. the relevence here- it works where democrats are in charge?

you might as well say voting is bad, rg. all the same arguments about privatization, etc, could be made.
and for the record, for those in this thread talking about "merit pay", whatever it is you want to call it, obama has specifically rejected the idea of merit pay, or rewarding teachers based on test scores. he also, just last night, has decried teaching to the test, and the narrowing of education.
none of your complaints here are inherent in the idea of charter schools. what you are complaining about is cronyism and scapegoating. obama strongly supports real education reform. every word i have ever heard out of his mouth is right on. and i am someone who put my own life on the line to get what i thought was right for my kids- 8 years of homeshcooling.
i think he is pitch perfect.

[JackintheGreen]

17. Philly, PA has its share of both types

And I taught in a locally run charter developed by an old-head social justice consortium. I don't know about other states, but here in Philly the money that we "took" from public schools amounted to less that 75%/child of what publics got. In other words, for every student enrolled in our school the public schools received 125% of the funds/child.

Wow! what a blow to the public schools. They got more money to teach fewer students.

And that whole certification argument...being certified doesn't make you a good teacher, and it doesn't prove that you know the material better than anybody else.

I've been back in grad school for the last few years, but the last I knew, the locally run charters were doing a hell of a lot better in Philly than the corporates, and there was a lot of unhappiness with the corporates.

I can talk out of my ass as well as anybody, but I choose not to.

[Zueda]

20. So does Hillary's DLC. n/t

[RestoreGore]

33. Then they are even more alike than I thought

[SoxFan]

26. Look who else supports them

Gore believes in more choice and competition within the public school system. Gore would triple the number of Charter Schools and put forward a plan to bring universal public school choice and reforms targeted to helping all children reach high standards to 100 of the lowest-performing school districts in America. Gore opposes private school vouchers, which funnel public money into private schools that are not accountable.
Source: Press release for Conference of Black Mayors Apr 28, 2000
http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Al_Gore_Education.htm


http://clinton.senate.gov/issues/education/index.cfm?topic=elementary

School Choice & Charter Schools

I support innovative approaches to education reform within the public school system, such as charter schools and alternative routes to teacher certification. I believe our public school system is one of the most important foundations of our society because it exposes students to a wide variety of ideas and cultures – to the rich diversity of their community. I promote creative and pioneering initiatives to improve academic achievement and education outcomes for all students. Charter schools are one part of a menu of reforms that hold the potential to expand the supply of high-quality public schools, especially in disadvantaged communities. Because most charter schools have limited credit histories, they often lack access to public school facilities or traditional funding streams such as bonds. A full one in three charter school operators have reported that school construction costs are a major obstacle to their school's success. That is why I proposed legislation, the Investing for Tomorrow's Schools Act, which would create an innovative funding source to help build and expand charter schools. Inadequate school buildings should not be obstacles to innovative reforms. In addition, I strongly oppose voucher schemes that divert precious resources away from financially strapped public schools to private schools that are not subject to the same accountability standards.



http://www.richardsonforpresident.com/issues/page?id=0003

Oppose private school tuition vouchers and support and expand the number of public charter schools
We can't afford, nor should we spend taxpayer money to support private schools, especially when funding for vouchers compete with much-needed investments in public schools. However, charter schools can be great education partners, as long as we insist that they have the same standards of accountability and access as other public schools.

[RestoreGore]

38. Yes, and I am still against them

So the point of this was? I also told Mr. Gore then that I didn't support charter schools and why when he ran in 2000 when he was part of something I am so glad he is no longer a part of... and guess what? He respected that opinion. More than you get on this site. And again, since Hillary Clinton is for them as well as you illustrated, how then does that distinquish Obama as an non DLC candidate?

[SoxFan]

43. You're out of the mainstream

Most Democratic policy makers recognize the importance of charters.

[RestoreGore]

50. Oh my God, I'm out of the "mainstream"

I consider that a compliment considering the current status of the "mainstream" in this country. But I doubt that I am alone in my feelings on it, and it doesn't make me any less of a Democrat which is what you are implying? And what Democratic "policy makers" would this be BTW? DLC policy makers who never write a policy without the corporate sector being able to get a piece of it?

[demo dutch]

69. On the surface it was a good idea. Once you dig beyond you'll find that

in the majority of the cases, they are run by "A Business" like "A business" and please read on here...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4555131&mesg_id=4556560

[mrreowwr_kittty]

28. Charter schools are public and they have good and bad aspects to them

It's true that some of them are a backdoor way to re-segregate the public schools. But there are others that serve special needs kids and provide a good, and cost-effective alternative to trying to accomodate those kids in the mainstream schools.

[demo dutch]

35. Charter Schools are designed to kill Public Education, the cornerstone of

this nation, because they self-governing public schools, often run by private companies, which operate outside the authority of local school boards.

[RestoreGore]

40. Exactly n/t

[Bucky]

48. Actually, they're part of public education and are only trying to replace the industrial age models

I don't know where you got the inaccurate notion that charter schools are attempts to kill public education. But as a proud union member and longtime public school teacher, I mostly see good things and positive results coming out of the charter school movement. They're experimenting with new ideas and building a far stronger diversity of schools in our communities to help us meet the diverse needs of very different types of students.

Like with any new innovation, there's still good and bad ideas being kicked around... and there are tradeoffs and even a few failures that go with all the successes. But industries and professions that go thru normal changes and evolutions experience that. Charter schools are makign a big difference to a lot of kids we might not have reached with the old 20th century cookie-cutter models of schools.

I'm glad Senator Obama AND Senator Clinton are supporting efforts to expand charter schools.

[demo dutch]

53. The majority of them are run like "a Business" by "a Business". They have been

freed from some of the rules, regulations, and statutes that apply to other public schools, and they get public money. This is how Jeb Bush has tried to destroy the public education system in Florida by vouchers and charter schools. He founded the first Bush co-founded the first charter school in the State of Florida. Now that he's out of office, he even started a foundation

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20080116/NEWS/801160722/1017/NEWS0501

When Jeb Bush is involved Let, me tell you, It's a bad sign!!!!

[Nederland]

63. Charter schools are accountable to parents

If a parent doesn't like the school, they can pull their child out. That is way more accountability than traditional public schools have.

[demo dutch]

79. Sorry I disagree. They are run by businesses and get public money, but do not

have the same accountability than Public schools, in my state, for example charter school teachers do not even have to have the same credentials as public school teachers, plus they are exempt from state testing. They can pick and choose their students, unlike public schools who must accommodate every student including handicapped, special needs etc. The result is that charter schools take away money from the public system which desperately needs the funding to accommodate all the special programs.

So rather then funding public schools properly, charter schools were created instead. It's simply a back door to privatization.

[Nederland]

88. Disagree

Charter schools are accountable to parents. If parents don't like the fact that charter schools teachers do not have the same credentials as public school teachers they can pull their kids out. Ultimately this is a question of whether or not you believe that education should be under the control of parents or school boards. I prefer to have control over my own kids education, rather than ceding it to a school board.

That's just me though...

[RestoreGore]

55. Study in Florida...

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/orl-special-charterschools,0,7628942.htmlpage

It's nice that everyone who responded here claims they are having lovely experiences (whether because they really are or because they are Obama supporters,) although that is not always the case and I don't believe charter schools are any better than public schools, and may well be worse in many places especially because they are not accountable.

[demo dutch]

59. Are you familiar with Jeb's Florida disaster?

[RestoreGore]

87. yes, and charter schools were also closed in Texas a few years ago as well...

because the teachers weren't certified. And a study on Florida is also linked here. But remember, because Obama is for it it is a wonderful program regardless of the overall reality. Sounds not much different than what we have had to put up with the last eight years.

[Greyskye]

60. Yay Obama! Charter school ignorance abounds here!

At least in California, charter schools are:
Public
Tuition Free
Curriculum aligned to CA state standards

My wife is a teacher at a Montessori Charter school. In addition to the above, her school:

Has credentialed and Montessori trained teachers
Before/After School programs
Intersession Programs
Quality Montessori materials
Low student/teacher ratios

The school she teaches at has STAR scores higher then the 'regular' public schools in the same district, in spite of having a disproportionate amount of 'special needs' students (ADHD, Aspergers, etc) then other schools in the district.

The waiting list for her school is the same as the student enrollment. Yeah, it must really suck! :sarcasm:

Our son is special needs as well, and is doing fantastic academically - actually 3-5 years ahead of his grade level in several areas. If he had been in a 'regular' public school he would more than likely be struggling across the board, and hate school, instead of enjoying it.

Please go educate yourself, and take your hate-filled ignorance elsewhere! :grr:

[demo dutch]

64. In the majority of states Charter schools are run as a Business by a Business

they take public money, but do not have to adhere to the same standards as public schools, because they self-governing public schools, often run by private companies, which operate outside the authority of local school board.

This is one of the ways Jeb Bush tried to destroy the public School System in Florida (along with his voucher program)He founded the first charter school in Miami. He even started a foundation now that he's out of office. http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20080116/NEWS/801160722/1017/NEWS0501

The mere fact that Jeb Bush is involved should be a huge red flag!

[Greyskye]

73. So fix THAT problem

instead of tarring ALL charter schools with the same broad brush!

Are your 'copy and paste' keys worn out yet? :eyes:

[demo dutch]

82. No but be so kind to read this post, on how Charter schools are a back door to Privatization

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4555131&mesg_id=4556848

[Greyskye]

95. read a link to YOUR undocumented post? ROFLMAO!

Gee, I can do that too! http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4555131#4556931

Charter schools in California are held accountable. In your linked post (get dizzy much?), you say:

have the same accountability than Public schools, in my state, for example charter school teachers do not even have to have the same credentials as public school teachers, plus they are exempt from state testing. They can pick and choose their students, unlike public schools who must accommodate every student including handicapped, special needs etc. The result is that charter schools take away money from the public system which desperately needs the funding to accommodate all the special programs.

1) In California, charter school teachers DO have to have the same credentials as Public school teachers, since they are Public schools!
2) They are not exempt from state testing.
3) My wife's school has more handicapped/special needs students then 'regular' public schools in the same district. They mainstream these students in the regular classrooms, using Montessori methods, the basis of which is 'teach to the level of the student', not isolate the special needs kids into a classroom ghetto.
4) They can't take money away from the 'public' system, since they are the public system!

I understand your frustration with the Florida charter schools, and if I lived there I'm sure I would be frustrated as well. But PLEASE understand that in some states, the Charter system is working VERY well. Concentrate on fixing the problems in YOUR broken system, not tearing down a working system on the other side of the country!

[demo dutch]

97. In "SOME" states ... however in most states they do not work well

Texas, Ohio, Arizona, Georgia just to name a couple but I can give you a whole list!

[Greyskye]

99. then fix THOSE STATES!

As opposed to advocating eliminating all charter schools, even the ones that work and address all of your issues.

[demo dutch]

101. I'm NOT advocating closing ALL charter schools, since in some locations such as CA they're set up

under a slightly different concept, and as you're pointing out, there SOME exceptions. However, since my entire family makes a living serving public school education from principals to teachers, I'm troubled by a candidate who jumps on the charter school band wagon since charter schools are a corner stone of the failing NCLB Bush policy it's used for the majority of the time as a tool to move toward privatization of the public education system.

[Greyskye]

103. then please make that clear in your further posts

As the tone of most of your other posts does not make that distinction.

At least we can agree that NCLB is a dismal failure! :hi:

[RestoreGore]

71. Please spare me your insults

I care about those not excelling and find it on the the wholw to not be any different than public schools, many of which also do quite well. If your wife is a teacher as you say and is doing as well as you say, well that's nice. Again, it isn't that way all over this country as some including candidates for it would like us to believe, and THAT is where I find fault with their rhetoric. And my wish to discuss that doesn't make me ignorant, so perhaps you should educate yourself about this on a nationwide level.

[Greyskye]

84. as you do?

Spare the insults eh?

If it's BS refute it instead of showing what an immature ass you are
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4555131#4555581

Yes, you're so classy. :sarcasm:

If there are so many people just in this thread alone from all over the country who feel that charter schools are doing a good job, perhaps it is incumbent upon you to "educate yourself about this on a nationwide level".

BTW, our Charter school IS accountable to the local school board. It is chartered through the local school board. If it doesn't, every single year conform to a number of standards set by the school board, it loses its charter. You can't get much more accountable then that.

[RestoreGore]

93. I respond as spoken TO

And again, your experience may not be indicative of the country as a whole, and actually, isn't. Althouht, I do understand how hard it is for some to look beyond their own world to see that, especially if it involves asking hard questions of someone they idolize.

[Greyskye]

98. Project much?

Can you please read your own words from the perspective of a state that has a working charter school system that addresses every single one of your criticisms?

And you can take your 'idolize' comments and shove them in the appropriate place. I was originally for Gore, flirted with Clark and Biden, then Edwards, and have finally landed on Obama as aligning most closely with my political philosophy of the remaining candidates.

[MagsDem]

61. He's rethug lite, what do you expect?

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

67. Rethug Lite is Voting for the Iraq War n/t

[RestoreGore]

74. So is voting to fund it

[AtomicKitten]

72. Rethug lite??? Obama was deemed the most liberal Senator in 2007.

Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., was the most liberal senator in 2007, according to National Journal's 27th annual vote ratings. The insurgent presidential candidate shifted further to the left last year in the run-up to the primaries, after ranking as the 16th- and 10th-most-liberal during his first two years in the Senate.

http://nj.nationaljournal.com/voteratings/

Next.

[RestoreGore]

77. Big deal.

[AtomicKitten]

78. It is when it completely refutes a spurious allegation, which it did.

[RestoreGore]

80. Not in my mind

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[demo dutch]

83. Charter schools are most of the time a back door to privatization. This is how

Jeb Bush tried to destroy the Public School system in Florida (along with vouchers)

[RestoreGore]

89. yes, and when the charter school fails, then comes the vouchers...

A big reason why I don't like it.

[demo dutch]

92. Exactly , that how the Jeb plan worked in Florida! A sneaky approach. Unfortunately

most people don't get it.

[GrantDem]

86. The teacher's Unions support charter schools...

cautious support...

http://www.aft.org/topics/charters/index.htm

If implemented properly, charter schools not only could increase parental choice, free teachers and administrators from bureaucratic red tape and encourage innovation, but they also could add value by increasing student achievement...

http://www.nea.org/charter/index.html

NEA believes that charter schools and other nontraditional public school options have the potential to facilitate education reforms and develop new and creative teaching methods that can be replicated in traditional public schools for the benefit of all children.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

118. Charter schools have teachers, too.

And thus, charter schools often have union members. They can't be opposed to their own members.

[LisaM]

100. Both George W. and Jeb Bush are big charter school supporters

In fact, W. got a lot of donations in 2000 from Edison charter schools.

I don't like privatizing government functions, least of all schools. I am no fan of charter schools in general, but even worse are virtual charter schools, most of which don't meet standards. In fact, if anyone recently watched that episode of Super Nanny with the two teenage girls forced to stay home and keep house all day plus watch their three little brothers while both were failing in school, it turns out that the "school" they attended was a virtual charter school.

This is one of those "across the aisle" issues where I would prefer we stay on our side of the aisle. If John Edwards was a charter school supporter, I am sorry for that. It's the kind of thing that would make me consider not voting for him after all, were he still running.



http://schoolsmatter.blogspot.com/2006/10/bush-spellings-and-charter-school-lie_07.html

[RestoreGore]

136. Lisa, I too am sorry Edwards supports charter schools

And I agree with you wholeheartedly on this. When we start doing things like this public schools fall by the wayside... but that's what Reagan wanted to do anyway. He wanted to do away with the Dept. of Education. He may just get his wish once the parties truly assimilate in this country as they seem to be doing now on so many issues. It is truly sad to me.

[pdxmom]

104. Check Clinton's platform. She supports charter schools, as well. N/T

[yeswecan08]

105. Obama does what's best for America's children - he's against status quo

[RestoreGore]

137. Then he shouldn't take money from Exelon n/t

[Baconfoot]

107. OK People the word charter school is used at least two completely different ways

a) The kind of "Charter School" that's run by a business and is essentially private.
b) The kind of "Charter School" that subject to the same state control and standards as any other "Public School."

Clearly the poster is against type a), not type b). Why continue to give the poster grief about type b)?
The thing to criticize about the post is clearly the point about lobbyists.

[Greyskye]

112. because the OP did NOT differentiate between the two

And that is an incredible disservice to the Type B schools, which are being tarred with his broad brush attack.

[boricua79]

116. as a public school teacher

all I know is that the charter school in our district is run pretty efficiently. I couldn't give you statistical comparisons, but they're not falling behind.

As to whether or not they are desirable, that's another story. I'm a big believer in public services, and I think the solution is giving adequate funding and support to the public school system. When public schools fail, it means there's been a failure to support the school system with money or with extra support services. Plus, as a teacher, I know what it feels like to have all of the social problems dumped on us to solve. Schools cannot solve all of them.

[Recursion]

123. I've seen some good and some bad charter schools

Though the same is true of public schools. I used to be rabidly anti-charter but Boston and DC have had some good ones, and in neither case did it seem to kill public education in those cities (not that there was much left to kill in DC).

[TankLV]

120. ANOTHER reason to vote AGAINST him...

[Recursion]

122. Check out the public charters in DC and Boston

They may be in other cities, but those are the two I've lived in recently. I used to be rabidly anti-charter until I did some tutoring at some public charter schools, and it's made me rethink a lot about them.

[Recursion]

125. Clinton talks about experimenting with them too

I think most of us are basically on the same page that the 19th-century model of education we still use needs to be changed.

[salin]

126. Is there anyone you do support?

I must have missed it.

[RestoreGore]

129. yeah, you missed it

And so did the media in this country that helped push him out.

[salin]

132. So now all that is left to do is bash those remaining?

To each his/her own - but I would think that polarizing folks in both camps wouldn't really accomplish much in forwarding ideas/arguments/etc.

Btw, the candidate I leaned towards is also out of the race.

[RestoreGore]

138. Criticizing POLICY^ is not bashing, Perhaps you need a dictionary

[aintitfunny]

127. I had no idea anyone believed that there is a problem

with Charter schools. Why would this be an issue - let alone a contentious one?

[RestoreGore]

134. Why bother discussing anything here then?

And it is contentious to me and others because of the fact that I see them in many instances as a stepping stone to voucher systems in inner city areas and the privitization of schools which I do not support. Now that may not be important to you but I didn't realize I had to go by some leader board here and could only discuss what everyone else wants to talk about, which seems to be anything but issues. As a few of the links I have posted in this thread illustrate there have been many problems with charter schools in this country since the inception of NCLB and I think that is something worth discussing since it was the topic of the link I posted which I assume you had no problem with, especially if our tax dollars are going to them. If you don't find it worth discussing, then with all due respect you have the option to not click on the link.

[pdxmom]

128. Here is Clinton's position on charter schools, taken from her web site.

"Charter schools are one part of a menu of reforms that hold the potential to expand the supply of high-quality public schools, especially in disadvantaged communities. Because most charter schools have limited credit histories, they often lack access to public school facilities or traditional funding streams such as bonds. A full one in three charter school operators have reported that school construction costs are a major obstacle to their school's success. That is why I proposed legislation, the Investing for Tomorrow's Schools Act, which would create an innovative funding source to help build and expand charter schools. Inadequate school buildings should not be obstacles to innovative reforms. In addition, I strongly oppose voucher schemes that divert precious resources away from financially strapped public schools to private schools that are not subject to the same accountability standards."

I don't see that charters are an issue that these candidates differ on.

[RestoreGore]

131. No there isn't a difference between them... both pushing DLC platforms

[crawfish]

130. My son attends a Charter school

and it's fantastic. I end up donating nearly 2K per year to the school to help them make up for the portion the gov't does not provide. I wish every kid who wanted to could attend a school like this - he's getting an IB diploma (rather than the AP that the public schools provide). He is thriving in the smaller, more creative atmosphere. He is learning to THINK rather than to just take tests.

I understand that many of them are bad, set up for the wrong reasons. I cannot oppose them, though, because I see how good they can be when they work. Kids are not "one size fits all" - to many get lost in the huge public schools.

[RestoreGore]

135. yes, especially since our public schools aren't worth saving...

How sad that so many seem to think this way now, for it truly does leave MANY children behind.

[crawfish]

139. That assumes that kids won't be left behind...

even IF most of the public schools are fixed.

Truth is, kids will get left behind as long as parents let them. I wouldn't want to sacrifice the ability of the kids and parents who DO care to get their kids an exceptional education just so we can pull along a bunch of kids to reach the minimum levels of education.

The public schools in my area are excellent, but they're huge. There are tons of opportunities, but also plenty of nooks to get lost in if the kid wants to (or the parents don't get involved). We spoke to the school system about his problems - he has tendencies of Asperger's and some special needs - but they told us that since he was passing his classes and not causing trouble, they couldn't spend the time on him. How much more money are we going to have to pump into the schools to make that not true? Instead, he's going to a small school, getting one-on-one attention from his teachers, and is excelling.