Hillary Clinton just ceded any moral claim she had to the presidency

[jgraz]

Senate Passes Telecom Immunity

With just a few days until a stop-gap surveillance measure expires, the Senate finally seemed ready to acquiesce to President Bush's demand that telecommunications companies that helped him spy on Americans be let off the hook.

After failing to strip immunity from the Senate bill, Sen. Chris Dodd announced he would abandon his effort to block the bill with a filibuster, arguing that the House, which has passed an immunity-free bill, would be a better place to try to strip immunity from Congress's final piece of legislation.

"We lost every single battle we had on this bill," Dodd said on a conference call Tuesday with reporters and bloggers. "And the question is now, Can we do better with the House carrying the ball on this bill?"

<SNIP>

Sens. Barack Obama (D-IL) and John McCain (R-AZ) took some time from campaigning for Tuesday's slate of "Potomac Primaries" in Maryland, Virginia and Washington to swing by the Capitol and vote on the amendments. Obama supported the immunity (stripping) measure. McCain opposed it.

Hillary Clinton did not vote on the immunity issue at all, although she was in Washington at least part of the day Tuesday, competing in the same primaries as Obama and McCain.

It is unclear whether Clinton will pay a political price for her absence, especially in light of her campaign's decision last fall to highlight Obama's "present" votes when he was an Illinois State Senator. "A president can't pick and choose which challenges he or she will face," she said in October.

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Senate_OKs_immunity_for_telecoms_0212_af.html

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. Don't be unfair, she was busy having her picture taken.

[juajen]

3. At least get a current photo, if you're intent on slamming her.

BTW, Obama has missed many more votes than Hillary during this campaign.

[jgraz]

8. Is this better?

[IndianaGreen]

108. She looks so happy next to her man Rupert!

She doesn't even smile like that at Bill.

[backscatter712]

112. That photo delivers! n/t

[corkhead]

121. whenever I see this picture I can't help but think of this for some reason:

[Ian_rd]

170. Ouch!

:rofl:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

13. You may have missed my point.

How many more of Clinton's criticisms against Obama will turn out to be hypocritical?

[jgraz]

66. I'm gonna go with...

ALL OF THEM.

[WillyT]

14. Here Ya Go:

:evilgrin:

[Hepburn]

20. Bwhahahahahahahaha........

...:rofl:

OMG.........that is a keeper!

[JimGinPA]

21. That pic is a scream...

:toast: :rofl:

[rodeodance]

106. No---this is scream

Forum Name General Discussion: Primaries
Topic subject Obama's first coming
Topic URL http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4540643#4540643
4540643, Obama's first coming
Posted by rodeodance on Mon Feb-11-08 04:55 PM




I think this Oz author raises some valid questions that we should all critically think about.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23182456-28737,00.html

Obama's first coming

Washington correspondent Geoff Elliott | February 09, 2008

IT was early 1994 when Nelson Mandela gave a speech in a slum outside Cape Town and spoke in grand terms of a new beginning and how when he was elected president every household would have a washing machine.

People took him literally. A few months later he became South Africa's first black president. That's when clerks in department stores in Cape Town had to turn people away demanding their free washer and dryer.
.......
How does a cult figure, in the eyes of some something akin to a messiah, make the transition to a political frontrunner - president even - where disappointment will soon crush what seemed to be a journey to a promised land?
Looking into the faces of a more than 16,000-strong crowd in a basketball stadium in Hartford, Connecticut this week, the Mandela magic I'd seen before was there too. Black and white, and the youth; they appeared in a state close to rapture watching Obama speak. Here and there one could see women crying and the some men wiping away tears too.
.......
In the US today there are echoes of that Rainbow Revolution. Through the media and on the streets people are getting a bit giddy over Obama. In this man they are projecting a new course - one that he says he will lead - where the US buries the culture wars, charts a new course in bipartisan politics and heralds a new dawn for America. ......
........
And therein lays the danger for Obama. The Obama shuttle has made it into orbit but at some point he's going to have to land this thing back on Earth.
.........
But the danger remains for Obama in managing the cult-like fervour. Obviously, he's no messiah and lofty expectations of his supporters is something that Obama is also acutely aware of. In stockmarket parlance, Obama's share price is soaring on expected future earnings. Clinton, 20 years in the public eye, is like the industrial conglomerate: steady share price and reliable dividends. Think of Obama as Google and Clinton as General Electric.
.............
"We can do this," he told ecstatic supporters on Tuesday night. "It will not be easy. It will require struggle and sacrifice. There will setbacks and we will make mistakes."
But then Obama, in the next sentence, in attempt to appeal to more voters out there, didn't even mention the Democratic Party but instead his "movement" saying: "I want to speak directly to all those Americans who have yet to join this movement but still hunger for change: we need you. We need you to stand with us, and work with us, and help us prove that together, ordinary people can still do extraordinary things".
.........
In his Super Tuesday speech Obama said "we are the ones we've been waiting for", attempting to make the case the time was now to get some "change" in Washington: a post-partisan world where politicians reach across the aisle for the common good. "This time can be different because this campaign for the presidency of the United States of America is different," he said. "It's different not because of me. It's different because of you."
.......
"Rather than focusing on any specific issue or cause - other than an amorphous desire for change - the message is becoming dangerously self-referential. The Obama campaign all too often is about how wonderful the Obama campaign is."
I hear that too in the voices of Obama's staff constantly, themselves referring to this "cult of Obama".
"Even if he doesn't go all the way, and I'm not being defeatist, I'm so thrilled to be a part of this and see the size of the crowds turning out," one staffer tells me.
.........
. He may well build an unstoppable momentum. And then the giddiness might evaporate and be replaced with something else. In marketing they call it post-purchase disappointment. If he gets the Democratic Party's nomination another test begins anew: how to turn the narrative which is all about striving for what is possible, to one where people are suddenly asking how are you actually going to do it?

[IndieLeft]

147. You're the Cynic he is talking about

You don't like sunny optimism. You look for crap under every shred of optimism.

When Obama talks of cynics, he is speaking people like you who want to trash people's dreams. It won't work.

All you have to do is take a look at his record and come to your decision about him. We don't need a comparison and analysis to someone who was elected in another country.

Obama is spreading a great message and you? You're spreading the seeds of fear.

If you think he's bad go to the mirror and take a good look at yourself.

[lukebc]

151. "rodeodance" is correct there is no hope. There's no reason to even vote in ANY election.

I fall to the feet of "rodeodance" and lick it's shoes: HOPE IF NOTHING BUT A FALSE PREMISE.

Hope is nothing but a dreamlike state that brings idealist and utopians to seek the impossible. The reality is that there is NO hope..... only the harsh reality of "reality" and the "realism" of reality and "reality" is exactly THAT: thus hopers and dreamers MUST accept the reality of "reality". Hope is a waste.

If the "reality" that the United States must roll over other "things" for the continuance of the "material well being" of the "people" of the United States (SUPPOSEDLY) well then that's the "reality" and any "hoping" or "dreaming" that that should NOT be the case isn't gonna change THAT "reality".

"rodeodance" is NOW my hero: I will never, ever, EVER partake in trying to influence or have a say about those that govern OVER me..... I will just completely accept what happens to me in life by those that "govern over me" and blindly accept it......

[MISSDem]

236. After all, we know that Barack is nothing but a

HOPE MONGER!

[kaygore]

214. This is just continuing the myth that Obama is all rhetoric and no

real substance. I was at the Town Hall Meeting in Alexandria, VA, and he explained how he would bring this country together and did so in specific, political terms.

As an Obama supporter, I resent that I am characterized as some Kool-Aid-drinking zombie who would rather put my faith (effort and vote) on hope rather than substance.

Before Hillary ever announced that she would seek the Democratic nomination for president, I knew Hillary. I have seen her in action. I have watched and studied her for years. Do not tell me that I have made an incorrect choice when I decided to vote for Obama.

As the primaries become the general election, the Republicans will dig dirt on Obama and will dig it deep. Some of it may e true, such as siding with the nuclear industry when a politician in Illinois, but if Obama learned from that mistake, then he is much more prepared for being president.

Hillary never seems to learn. Her finger seems always in the air, testing the way the wind is blowing (or telling the American people to F**K off as she did with the bankruptcy bill or not voting yesterday on the Telecom bill. To vote for Hillary just because someone wants to see a woman be president, which I have heard from many people here who said they were going to vote for her, is ludicrous.

Obama's base now cuts across all gender, ethnic, religious, political and age groups. His message that we must reunite as a country resonates with the people as it strikes terror in the hearts of the powerful. For, if we unite again as a country, we can no longer be so easily controlled by the power elite, and Hillary is a member of that power elite.

If Obama does nothing else than give US our power back, then he will go down as one of the great American presidents.

[Window]

37. OMG!

That is too funny!


Peace:thumbsup:

[snooper2]

68. holy shit...

I'm on a conference call and everyone is asking why I just started laughing out of nowhere...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MyNameGoesHere]

81. And another pig rears its ugly head.

Why was that photo necessary? You insinuating Hillary is a man?

[Forkboy]

87. Maybe just insinuating that the two Clintons might as well be one.

Ya think?

[MyNameGoesHere]

90. Yeah i know the catch phrase.

Just is in VERY poor taste but then that is not a requirement to be a human.

[Forkboy]

93. Poor taste? Correct. Sexism? No.

That's my only point.

[rodeodance]

98. little obamababies having their fun again. Why don't you post something positive about your candidat

[jgraz]

120. OK. HE VOTED ON THE FISA BILL TODAY.

How's that?

[rodeodance]

124. chuckle

[MessiahRp]

218. Just out of curiosity how many of your posts are one word or less?

Not bashing you at all but I have noticed that a great amount of your posts are one word or less and lack substance. That would be a silly way to increase post counts but I prefer at least a couple of sentences on these topics/responses good sir. :)

Just nitpicking a little.

Rp

[LittleClarkie]

246. And so you have a problem with that or what. What is "chuckle"?

The topic at hand is the FISA bill and he voted against that. Have something of substance to say about that, or no?

[peacock]

179. He wasn´t there for the

final vote. Both Clinton and Obama are shirking their duties.

[DWilliamsamh]

164. He VOTED AGAINST IMMUNITY FOR THE TELECOMS! Enough? Or do you want more?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

181. Like #106?

Which I've seen you post at least a half dozen times elsewhere?


When preaching from the pulpit, it's a good idea not to be doing meth and hanging out with gay hookers.



"J'accuse!"

[LittleClarkie]

242. That's mature.

You forgot to say it in baby talk for extra effect.

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

135. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Norwood]

111. Bwahahahahahah!!!!

:spray: :rofl:

[Cooley Hurd]

134. Alerted...

:thumbsdown:

[Ken Burch]

157. oh...dear...Godddddddd.....

That singed my retinas.

[NikolaC]

158. That's....

Creeepyyy :yoiks:

[RazBerryBeret]

160. wow

that image just gave me the creeps.

[malaise]

168. I'm spitting out coffee here

:rofl: :rofl:

[LanternWaste]

196. Isn't that part of the FR New Artists Collection showing?

Isn't that part of the FR New Artists Collection showing?

[IndianaGreen]

261. ROTFLMAO

Billary running for a third term!

:-)

[Big Blue Marble]

22. What you do not like that pix of Hillary?

Why I think she looks quite lovely in pink.

[Yael]

29. I agree -- that wasn't fair. Just because she stayed up all night reading

Oh wait...

[D23MIURG23]

163. This happened to be an important vote.

I wouldn't think I would need to explain why this might be seen as a betrayal of democratic principles on her part.

[MISSDem]

232. As important as this one?

Please.

[sniffa]

71. pfft

:rofl:

[IndianaGreen]

77. She was getting her hair done and a massage

Taking care of oneself is far more important than defending the Constitution, don't ya know?

[K Gardner]

119. Quick perusal of thread reveals not ONE valid excuse for her missing THIS vote, which was the topic

of the OP. If you can't defend your candidate's nonvote, stop squawking and trying to change the subject.

[LiberalFighter]

171. Clinton has missed 6% (152 of 2406) Obama has missed 17% (185 of 1098)

Ranking on missed votes:
Clinton - Poor
Obama - Extremely Poor

Bills Sponsored:
Clinton - 354
Obama - 129

Successfully Enacted:
Clinton - 2
Obama - 1

Co-Sponsored:
Clinton - 1732
Obama - 545

[DWilliamsamh]

174. Yes...but that doesn't address why she didn't TRY to hold telecoms accountable

Obama did. As a raw number percentage of votes, means nothing - especially when running a national campaign. It is WHAT you thought it was essential to vote on, or didn't vote on (especially when you were in Washington DC at the time), that tells the story. And the story here is Ms. Clinton a) doesn't CARE that the telecoms broke the law at the behest of Bushco or B) has made the decision that not being called "week on terror" by Republicans is so politically advantageous that the rights of American citizens who have been SPIED ON BY THEIR GOVERNMENT, simply does rate as highly as her becoming President.

Weren't all you Hillary supporters the one's slamming Obama for even suggestion that it might be productive to "unite America," because you asserted that he was capitulating to the Republicans? Well what would you call this refusal to stand up to the least popular president in American history? Strength? Puh-f'ing-lease.,

[LiberalFighter]

177. Exactly what did Obama do other than vote against the bill to change the law?

[DWilliamsamh]

217. HE ACTUALLY TOOK A CONCRETE POSITION. More than Hillary has EVER done.

As a matter of fact she has AFFIRMATIVELY voted to give Bush even MORE power with her Kyle/Lieberman vote. Would I have preferred that he voted NO on that one? Yes I would have - but Ms. Clinton voted YES on that and YES to ignoring the rule of law.

[Alcibiades]

185. If you're going for the "missed vote" smear

At least break it down by year or give us averages. As Senator Clinton likes to point out, they have not been in the senate for the same length of time. Why not just give us missed vote totals for both? Could it be that Clinton has missed more votes than Obama, for the same reason that she's sponsored more bills, which is simply because she's been in the Senate longer?

[bagrman]

192. How long has she been in the Senate? And she couldn't show up for a

vote that proved she was for law and order.

[polmaven]

172. Because she was in DC for PART of the day

does not mean she was there when the vote was ACTUALLY taken. If the majority leader had told her that her vote would/may make a difference, she would, I'm sure, have made arrangements to be there to vote.

He told her, however, that he did not have the votes. If she had canceled appointments to vote, "we" would have only lost by 19 votes.......Yeah, no excuses whatsoever....A 20 vote loss vs. a 19 vote loss......inexcusable! :sarcasm:

[PassingFair]

178. Ahem...read between the lines....

The DLC wanted immunity. That is CLEAR.

[springhill]

142. Boy , the vitrol thrown Hillary's way........

is the kind of stuff George Bush should be getting. I can't believe another democrat is being treated in this manner. It's really disgusting.

[rch35]

144. George Bush IS getting ths kind of stuff.

but so is hillary, because of her major fuck up.

just cause she's a democrat doesn't mean people can't make fun of her.

[polmaven]

161. What is happening in this forum

is more than making "fun of her". What's happening in this forum is beneath the standards I have always been proud to uphold as a Democrat.

What's happening in this forum is beneath even "down and dirty" politics.

The downright childishness of many posters is not the least bit funny.

I am supporting Hillary for the nomination, but, even though I disagree with some of his positions, I will, if he is the nominee, happily and vigorously support Senator Obama for the presidency. I will work toward electing a Democrat. I will not pout and mewl that he said or did this or that about my candidate, so ...oh...boo hoo...boo hoo...I'm gonna take my vote and go home!!!
:cry:

I can't wait for this primary season to be over so the Democratic Underground I love will be back.

:crazy:

[rch35]

231. Everyone just needs to lighten up.

Don't take it so seriously, it is a competition, supporters are gonna fling some shit at each other, just by human nature. Let it go.

[springhill]

268. No he is not.........

He is a secondard thought when it comes to attacks on this board. Hillary is the main target, and if you don't know that, you haven't been reading too many posts lately.

[Tellurian]

169. Oh brother the desperation of the Obama camp is pathetic..Obama & Rezko are brothers!

and besides the picture is photshopped. Whenever, a poster tries using propaganda to win an argument, it serves as an advertisement as to the validity of their posts. Shame on you! Hooligan, you suck!

[chaz4jazz]

186. THEY BOTH MISSED THE VOTE!

OK Obama freaks - so you're just showed your colors. Both Hillary and Barack DID NOT VOTE on the FISA bill according to today's NT Times:

Among the presidential contenders, Senator John McCain, Republican of Arizona, voted in favor of the final measure, while the two Democrats, Senator Barack Obama of Illinois and Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York, did not vote. Mr. Obama did oppose immunity on a key earlier motion to end debate. Mrs. Clinton, campaigning in Texas, issued a statement saying she would have voted to oppose the final measure.

<http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/13/us/13fisa.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin>

Research people. Research. Think with your heads. Not from your asses.

[chaz4jazz]

187. AND SHE WAS IN TEXAS! NOT D.C. - EOM

[chaz4jazz]

194. AND IT WAS OBAMA WHO WAS IN DC - AND DIDN'T VOTE

[ACanadianLiberal]

215. Link

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=2&vote=00020

[ACanadianLiberal]

206. Both of them missed the FINAL FISA vote

Hillary on Passage of FISA Bill Today
By Jeralyn, Section Legislation
Posted on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 09:40:18 PM EST
Tags: FISA, Hillary Clinton (all tags) Share This:
Both Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton missed the final FISA vote today -- they were the only Senators, along with Sen. Graham, to miss it. It occurred between 5:30 p.m. and 6 p.m. The vote was 68 to 29, so it wouldn't have mattered had they been there. Both were present to vote with Sen. Dodd against cloture a few weeks ago and Obama was present this morning to vote on the Amendment.

Hillary Clinton released this statement on the FISA vote today:

"I believe we need to modernize our surveillance laws and give our nation’s intelligence professionals the tools they need to fight terrorism and to make our country more secure. At the same time, smart, balanced reform must also protect the rights and civil liberties of Americans. In my opinion, the FISA Amendments Act of 2007 falls short of these goals, and for that reason, I oppose the bill.

More...


As I have maintained for months, I oppose the provision contained in the bill that grants blanket retroactive immunity to telecommunications companies that allegedly cooperated in the administration's warrantless wiretapping program. I believe granting retroactive immunity under these circumstances is wrong and undermines accountability. To that end, I have supported and cosponsored Senator Dodd’s strong efforts to strip this provision from the FISA bill, and was discouraged to see the amendment fail by such a significant margin.

Over the past seven years, the Bush Administration has blatantly and systematically disregarded Americans' civil liberties. It cannot be trusted to protect Americans’ privacy rights. That is why I strongly believe we need to pass balanced legislation that protects our civil liberties and the rule of law while giving our law enforcement and intelligence agencies the tools they need to protect our country."



http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/2/12/224018/154

[ingac70]

2. All that Telecom cash....

got Hillary to not bother to vote.

[Stephanie]

182. How much did she get from them? n/t

[ZombieHorde]

4. Lame. nt

[Leopolds Ghost]

55. Do you support warrantless wiretapping, O fresh faced DUer?

[ZombieHorde]

125. No.

That is why I think that her absence at the vote is lame. Now is the time for our candidates to show leadership.

[sniffa]

72. Agreed

She's very lame.

[tritsofme]

5. The vote wasn't close nor was it expected to be.

This is a procedural vote, the real vote comes in a few months when the conference report hits the floor of both houses.

[Cooley Hurd]

6. She can't use her voting "present" meme against Senator Obama anymore...

...that's for sure.:thumbsdown:

[MagsDem]

28. She sure as fuck can

Why couldn't she? Hillary has never pulled that "present" shit that Obama pulls.

[GarbagemanLB]

34. ...she just doesn't show up.

[jgraz]

46. She votes "Not Present"

:eyes:

[johnlal]

45. She can use it as much as she wants

It just doesn't carry any weight anymore.

[Cooley Hurd]

78. Ooh - a might angry, aren't we?

First off - WE NEEDED her vote on the Telecom immunity stripping. Secondly, she sure as hell voted to give Chimpo the OK for war with BOTH Iraq and Iran (Kyl/Lieberman amendment). Grow up Mags, and do some research...:eyes:

[rch35]

145. Yeah, such a horrible thing he did.

Voting the way Planned Parenthood asked him to on abortion bills. I'm sure that really riles his conscience.

[HarveyBrooks]

162. Ummm...

Saint Obama had a few more "present" votes.

We aren't talking about a "present" vote on whether to name a state office building after a deceased state official, but rather about votes that reflect an officeholder's core values.

...He also voted "present" on SB 71, which lowered the first offense of carrying a concealed weapon from a felony to a misdemeanor and raised the penalty of subsequent offenses.

In 1999, Obama voted "present" on SB 759, a bill that required mandatory adult prosecution for firing a gun on or near school grounds. The bill passed the state Senate 52-1. Also in 1999, Obama voted "present" on HB 854 that protected the privacy of sex-abuse victims by allowing petitions to have the trial records sealed. He was the only member to not support the bill.

In 2001, Obama voted "present" on two parental notification abortion bills (HB 1900 and SB 562), and he voted "present" on a series of bills (SB 1093, 1094, 1095) that sought to protect a child if it survived a failed abortion. In his book, the Audacity of Hope, on page 132, Obama explained his problems with the "born alive" bills, specifically arguing that they would overturn Roe v. Wade. But he failed to mention that he only felt strongly enough to vote "present" on the bills instead of "no."

And finally in 2001, Obama voted "present" on SB 609, a bill prohibiting strip clubs and other adult establishments from being within 1,000 feet of schools, churches, and daycares.

If Obama had taken a position for or against these bills, he would have pleased some constituents and alienated others. Instead, the Illinois legislator-turned-U.S. senator and, now, Democratic presidential hopeful essentially took a pass.

[rch35]

234. I do not agree with everything Obama says or does.

But the ridiculous argument over his "present" votes is getting old. I think he should have voted on some of the bills, but I understand that "present" is also often used to show support for the spirit of a bill, but to show dissatisfaction with the way it is written. I don't expect Obama to be perfect by any means, but I think that this argument has been blown way out of proportion.

[rodeodance]

86. DREAM on!

[Cooley Hurd]

89. .

Great Aerosmith song - what does it have to do with Senator Clinton chickening out on the Dodd bill?:shrug:

[tritsofme]

7. The vote wasn't close nor was it expected to be.

This is a procedural vote, the real vote comes in a few months when the conference report hits the floor of both houses.

[WillyT]

9. And She Isn't Principled, Nor Is She Close To It...

This would have been easy for her to do, and yet... she failed to do it.

:shrug:

[tritsofme]

17. Obama misses votes = Good; Hillary misses procedural vote = Bad.

Thanks for the reminder, I get confused sometimes.

[WillyT]

25. They Were Both In DC

:shrug:

[chaz4jazz]

188. WRONG! HILLARY WAS IN TEXAS.

[johnlal]

44. You can say "procedural" a million times. It's not true.

This wasn't a "procedural vote". It was a vote to amend the text of a bill. It made substantive changes to the bill that will be voted on later. I have seen you post several times on this thread that it's just a "procedural" vote. Stop now. Your either being dishonest or you are misinformed.

[sniffa]

73. And whomever it is, I'm missing it everytime

:woohoo:

[tritsofme]

132. Its nice to know I've tickled someone.

Happy Valentine's Day.

[tritsofme]

131. An amendment that was DOA, and everyone knew it.

Practically it was just a procedural vote, as their was no question the amendment would fail.

It'll look silly to attack Hillary for missing this vote when she votes on the conference report several weeks from now.

[truebrit71]

52. It wasn't a procedural vote at all...nice try at the spin though...

....:eyes:

[ORDem]

105. Nope, you missed the point (of course)

Hillary complains about Obama missing a vote, he doesn't complain about her missing a vote. Get it?:eyes:

[rodeodance]

107. self-serving proclamation!

[Garbo 2004]

30. That may well be the case, but candidates are about photo ops, image, taking credit for taking a

stand (even when they know their vote won't matter to the outcome), etc. and dropping in to vote wouldn't have hurt.

And pols do on occasion take each other to task for procedural votes, not just the ones that really count.

[tritsofme]

36. I always love the faux outrage over these things around here.

I find it more amusing that anything else.

[Usrename]

40. The outrage is with the hypocrisy of it all.

No one criticized Hillary for missing any votes, ever, until AFTER she attacked Obama for it, hinting that he is a coward.

Her BEHAVIOR flies in the face of her RHETORIC.

[emilyg]

42. Present.

[tritsofme]

130. What exactly are we talking about here?

Obama wasn't attacked for missing Kyl-Lieberman until he went attack for the vote Hillary showed up for.

If we're talking about the "present" garbage in the IL Senate, it was a strategy that different sides of the pro-choice movement have different opinions on.

I see this as a meaningless vote, the bill in this form will not be enacted into law without another vote by both houses on the conference report. The amendment that was voted on today, as evidenced by the vote was DOA before it even hit the floor.

All of this faux outrage is just nonsense.

[Usrename]

153. I guess that is another legitimate way of looking at it.

But you would have be very comfortable with being only half correct.

One would would have to argue that criticizing Obama's present votes is a legitimate response to him attacking the policy of Kyle/Lieberman, while at the same time arguing, out of the other side of one's mouth, that critisizing her for missing the amnesty vote is not an appropriate response to the counter-attacks on him surrounding his record of voting present.

[cbayer]

51. Poor you. You think people here want facts. What gave you that silly idea? nt.

[Leopolds Ghost]

56. Procedural votes are where the bill is crafted... Hillary allies voted for immunity/endless wiretaps

If she had attended she would have been compelled to vote with them, and thus draw attention to the Fascist Enabling Act of 2008 (procedural version.)

[LiberalFighter]

167. The responders here don't know how Congress works and the bill process.

Like Clinton would had been able to effect the outcome of the bill when the vote was 68-29.


"Senator Clinton was unable to vote earlier, but she has made her strong opposition to this legislation crystal clear," her Senate spokesman Philippe Reines tells Ambinder in an e-mail.

[GMFORD]

237. So right in the middle of a primary campaign

when she is holding onto a slim lead by a thread, she gives the opponent fresh ammunition against her. That is a foolish move. If she loses, it will be because Obama ran a better campaign.

[ginnyinWI]

10. Cowardly. n/t

[MagsDem]

26. Obama's a coward too then, right?

Because he didn't show up to vote on the Kyl/Lieberman bill? How about when he reneged on his senate campaign promise to vote to repeal the patriot act.

You do realize she already voted against this once before, and that we lost by 20 votes today. Can you explain how that would indicate she is a "coward?"

[tritsofme]

133. No answer?

Curious...

[MagsDem]

11. I guess Obama has too then, right?

So did Obama also cede any moral claim he had the presidency when he didn't show up to vote on the Kyl/Lieberman bill? How about when he reneged on his senate campaign promise to vote to repeal the patriot act.

[Selatius]

12. To be fair. Obama missed quite a few important votes as well, but this miss was severe.

Perhaps there has been no other bill before the Senate that has personified the expansion of executive power and the notion that the president can perform certain actions with impunity. If the telecoms get to walk free, then future presidents can count on telecoms to spy for him whenever he wants to spy on Americans.

It would be little different than East German STASI keeping dossiers on every citizen they suspect of being critical of the government.

[MagsDem]

18. Why is it severe? We lost by 20 votes, and she already voted against immunity once

How many times does she have to vote against it before it counts as her being against it?

[Leopolds Ghost]

57. What do you mean "we" MagsDem? Hillary's center-left allies voted for it.

Quite a few of Obama's too.

I bet Webb and Warner and Edwards all support universal spying on US citizens too.

That's what they DO at Fort Meade.

[whatchamacallit]

15. Well there you have it - money talks, civil liberty walks

Fuck you very much to any democrat that voted for it.

[Kurovski]

16. K&R. (nt)

[DiamondJay]

19. how about the other votes Obama missed? did he vote present?

[Yael]

23. Skinner should set up a donation for recs system

I gave this the one I had. Here is a swift kick to go with it.

:grr:

[AtomicKitten]

24. It's a simple matter of cover-up versus secrecy, and Hillary threw down on the wrong side, again.

K&R

[MagsDem]

31. LOL - none of your morons realize she voted against it the last time?

You don't do you? LOL

[AtomicKitten]

32. Thank you for asking: I was referring to her IWR and K-L votes.

So, who's the moran now?

[rodeodance]

94. Obama was campaigning He did NOT vote on k-l

[Leopolds Ghost]

59. To cover her ass on the issue

Watch her (and Obama, and Edwards if he were in the Senate) vote YEA on the completed bill.

[Cooley Hurd]

82. You're calling every Obama supporter a moron?

First off - we spell it "morAn" here on DU. Second off, cash your check from the Clinton campaign soon, because it might bounce...:rofl:

[chaz4jazz]

189. WRONG. HILLARY FROM TEXAS SAID SHE WOULD HAVE VOTED AGAINST THE MEASURE

[Bread and Circus]

27. c'mon fakeoutrageanistas.... let's hear your "he voted present" now...

[Occam Bandage]

33. LOL PRESENT DURR

:eyes:

[Yael]

35. Lobbyist donations: HRC #1 (more than doubling #2 McCain) $823,087

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/select.asp?cycle=2008

I'm shocked by this. SHOCKED, I say. :eyes:

Senator Edwards -- I hope you are paying attention!

[GarbagemanLB]

38. but she understands the little people!

[Yael]

47. Lobbyists are people too. People with jobs. She protected those jobs.

Dizzy yet?

[Leopolds Ghost]

67. This bill protects tens of thousands of jobs. NSA workers in charge of storing & filtering your data

illegally even as we speak. (It's a black op, and an open secret, thanks to the sheer volume of people who've been accumulating and filtering YOUR communications and flagging YOUR phone number when code words suggesting "violent radicalization" are uttered.)

[Yael]

80. Yep -- those too

*sigh*

[PassingFair]

180. You shouldn't have a problem with it unless you are guilty of something..

Can their equipment read these thingies? ----> :sarcasm:

[HuffleClaw]

39. A president can't pick and choose which challenges he or she will face" ???!!!

seriously? she uttered those words? wow. and with a straight face?

this seems to me to have been a really good opportunity to make a stand on an important issue and she totally blew it. i wonder if she'd been expecting obama to also pass on the vote. he and mccain (and other 'presidential hopefuls') have often missed votes such as this

[nonconformist]

49. Well, Obama wouldn't take a stand on K/L or SCHIP....

And since she did once vote AGAINST this, and her vote wouldn't have mattered this time, your point is moot.

She should have voted, but this biased one-sided false outrage is a little much.

[thecrow]

41. Obama supported the immunity (stripping) measure?

I thought he was against stripping immunity?

[Usrename]

43. The immunity clause is already in the bill.

Obama supporting stripping the part of the bill that grants the immunity. I know it was worded awkwardly in the link.

[thecrow]

48. Ah...! Thank you

:0

[Eurobabe]

149. Awkward much?

:crazy: This sounds like a Kerry line. I was for the...

I am still confused, I take it that it is a good thing though (at least for Obama) :shrug:

[1776Forever]

50. Hillary is a convenient voter - When she doesn't want to be counted she just doesn't vote! Shame!!

:argh:

[rodeodance]

102. yeah, just like obama when did not show up for K-L--instead was on the stump. yup

[LittleClarkie]

245. Well, Kerry was missing in action last time. That's bound to happen to a candidate

I don't hold it against either of them that they missed votes because they were running for president.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Leopolds Ghost]

54. "helpED him spy on Americans? Past tense? This bill legalizes & gives Dem imprimatur to Bush spying.

This is the end of impeachment, the end of claims that Bush (and Clinton, and Nixon, BTW) abused warrantless wiretap authority.

It is now legal to continue the existing "Terrorist Surveillance Program" to spy on all US citizens.

[polmaven]

165. The end of impeachment???

But...I thought Senator Obama was against impeachment! After all, neither the (p)resident nor Darth has done anything severe enough to warrent impeachment!

[bigtree]

58. the umbrage!!

:rofl:

[Leopolds Ghost]

61. the lack of concern for, nay endorsement of universal spying means you ARE the weakest Dem link.

legal, illegal -- bigtree has no passion for the difference

[bigtree]

64. right. If I don't line up behind these cheesy political attacks . . .

go peddle your bullshit to someone who gives a care.

[OzarkDem]

60. And if she'd flown back to DC to vote against it

You would have criticized her for not being out campaigning.

Look, we know what this is all about. Its sexism pure and simple. Get over it. A woman is going to be in the WH.

[bicentennial_baby]

62. Wow, what a load of bullshit...

Sexism? Please tell me you're f'n joking...Some of us actually care about the systematic dismantling of the 4th amendment. Clinton should have represented her constituents, esp. considering that she was in D.C. today.

[sniffa]

75. Who are you talking to?

I <3 my i-list. :loveya:

[Leopolds Ghost]

63. Taken the Metro back, you mean. She's campaigning in Northern Virginia this morning

Next door to DC for the geographically challenged

[jgraz]

65. You might want to take another run through that Sylvan Learning Center course

The article specifically states that she was in DC today campaigning. She could have taken the freaking bus to vote.

The rest of your victim complex is beyond pathetic. Seek help immediately.

[Cooley Hurd]

85. Sexism?

:rofl: Desperation means you pull out your lamest attacks. You DO know that, don't you?:eyes:

[Forkboy]

88. I';m surprised it took 60 posts for someone to use that old tired chestnut.

[jgraz]

97. Sometimes even Hillary apologists have to shake off their horror at her actions

It's hard to yell SEXISM when you're trying to keep from vomiting.

[OzarkDem]

114. Obama supporters are reaching new lows

The level of vitriol and cheap attacks is getting really sad. Step back and take a look at what you're saying.

You may want to keep in mind you could be hurting your candidate instead of helping him.

[jgraz]

118. Hmmm... who was it that came on the thread and started yelling SEXISM based on wrong information

Do you remember who that was? :shrug:

As far as me hurting Obama, I really don't think there's much anybody can do one way or the other at this point. Barring some unforeseen turn of events, this thing is over.

[OzarkDem]

122. Calling them as I see them

and I've seen a lot of sexism in my day.

Think twice about some of these arguments and see if you can make your case in a way that isn't demeaning to the candidate.

[bvar22]

113. I believe she was IN DC today,

but spent the time campaigning.

[chaz4jazz]

190. HILLARY WAS IN TEXAS DURING THE VOTE! GET SMART FOR ONCE.

[kaygore]

216. I am a woman and criticism of Hillary is not sexist but too often deserved

based on her record and actions.

[zulchzulu]

69. Hillary...can you hear me now? Can you hear me now?

What a sad day... thanks to Chris Dodd and Barack Obama and others who tried to stop this nonsense...

[catagory5]

70. and

Did Obama or Mckaskill,

[quakerboy]

74. And Color me decided

I was on the fence, albeight leaning a bit. This was my decider. Procedural or no, argue as you will, this was important. This is the topic that makes me pick up the phone and call my rep/senators. And having both Democratic candidates show up and be united on this would have sent a message to the other Democrats. One of them may well be president in a bit under a year. But her not showing gives cover to any who wanted to break ranks and vote with the pubs.

An Obama voter, for 4 minutes and counting.

[jgraz]

76. Woman-hater!

:sarcasm:

(And, sadly, the sarcasm tag is needed.)

[chaz4jazz]

191. YOU JUST DECIDED ON FALSE INFORMATION. CONGRATULATIONS - MORON

Neither Hillary nor Obama voted on the FISA bill yesterday. Hillary was in Texas. God knows where Obama was - probably in DC. But, your mind is made up on crap facts. You should be listening to Limbaugh and O'Reilly - you'd fit right in.

[chaz4jazz]

193. HELLO? ANYBODY INTERESTED IN THE FACTS?

Here's the roll call from yesterday's vote. Neither Clinton NOR Obama voted!

<http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=1&vote=00435>

Alphabetical by Senator Name Akaka (D-HI), Yea
Alexander (R-TN), Yea
Allard (R-CO), Not Voting
Barrasso (R-WY), Yea
Baucus (D-MT), Yea
Bayh (D-IN), Yea
Bennett (R-UT), Yea
Biden (D-DE), Not Voting
Bingaman (D-NM), Yea
Bond (R-MO), Yea
Boxer (D-CA), Nay
Brown (D-OH), Nay
Brownback (R-KS), Not Voting
Bunning (R-KY), Yea
Burr (R-NC), Yea
Byrd (D-WV), Yea
Cantwell (D-WA), Nay
Cardin (D-MD), Nay
Carper (D-DE), Yea
Casey (D-PA), Yea
Chambliss (R-GA), Yea
Clinton (D-NY), Not Voting (in Texas)
Coburn (R-OK), Not Voting
Cochran (R-MS), Yea
Coleman (R-MN), Yea
Collins (R-ME), Yea
Conrad (D-ND), Yea
Corker (R-TN), Yea
Cornyn (R-TX), Yea
Craig (R-ID), Not Voting
Crapo (R-ID), Yea
DeMint (R-SC), Not Voting
Dodd (D-CT), Nay
Dole (R-NC), Yea
Domenici (R-NM), Yea
Dorgan (D-ND), Yea
Durbin (D-IL), Yea
Ensign (R-NV), Yea
Enzi (R-WY), Yea
Feingold (D-WI), Nay
Feinstein (D-CA), Yea
Graham (R-SC), Yea
Grassley (R-IA), Yea
Gregg (R-NH), Not Voting
Hagel (R-NE), Yea
Harkin (D-IA), Nay
Hatch (R-UT), Yea
Hutchison (R-TX), Yea
Inhofe (R-OK), Not Voting
Inouye (D-HI), Yea
Isakson (R-GA), Yea
Johnson (D-SD), Yea
Kennedy (D-MA), Yea
Kerry (D-MA), Nay
Klobuchar (D-MN), Yea
Kohl (D-WI), Yea
Kyl (R-AZ), Yea
Landrieu (D-LA), Yea
Lautenberg (D-NJ), Not Voting
Leahy (D-VT), Yea
Levin (D-MI), Yea
Lieberman (ID-CT), Not Voting
Lincoln (D-AR), Yea
Lott (R-MS), Yea
Lugar (R-IN), Yea
Martinez (R-FL), Yea
McCain (R-AZ), Not Voting
McCaskill (D-MO), Yea
McConnell (R-KY), Yea
Menendez (D-NJ), Nay
Mikulski (D-MD), Yea
Murkowski (R-AK), Yea
Murray (D-WA), Yea
Nelson (D-FL), Yea
Nelson (D-NE), Yea
Obama (D-IL), Not Voting (WASHINGTON DC)
Pryor (D-AR), Yea
Reed (D-RI), Yea
Reid (D-NV), Yea
Roberts (R-KS), Yea
Rockefeller (D-WV), Yea
Salazar (D-CO), Yea
Sanders (I-VT), Not Voting
Schumer (D-NY), Yea
Sessions (R-AL), Yea
Shelby (R-AL), Yea
Smith (R-OR), Yea
Snowe (R-ME), Yea
Specter (R-PA), Yea
Stabenow (D-MI), Yea
Stevens (R-AK), Yea
Sununu (R-NH), Yea
Tester (D-MT), Yea
Thune (R-SD), Yea
Vitter (R-LA), Yea
Voinovich (R-OH), Yea
Warner (R-VA), Yea
Webb (D-VA), Yea
Whitehouse (D-RI), Yea
Wyden (D-OR), Nay


"Democratic presidential candidate Senator Barack Obama shakes hands as he campaigns outside a Metro subway stop on the District of Columbia's primary election day on Pennsylvania Avenue in Southeast Washington, February 12, 2008. (Jim Bourg/Reuters)

[jgraz]

199. YOU'RE LOOKING AT THE WRONG VOTE

Obama showed up specifically to vote for Dodd's amendment stripping the immunity clause. When that went down, the rest of the bill was moot.

[quakerboy]

265. Kiss my Facts

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=2&vote=00019

Alphabetical by Senator Name
Akaka (D-HI), Nay
Alexander (R-TN), Yea
Allard (R-CO), Yea
Barrasso (R-WY), Yea
Baucus (D-MT), Yea
Bayh (D-IN), Yea
Bennett (R-UT), Yea
Biden (D-DE), Nay
Bingaman (D-NM), Nay
Bond (R-MO), Yea
Boxer (D-CA), Nay
Brown (D-OH), Nay
Brownback (R-KS), Yea
Bunning (R-KY), Yea
Burr (R-NC), Yea
Byrd (D-WV), Nay
Cantwell (D-WA), Nay
Cardin (D-MD), Nay
Carper (D-DE), Yea
Casey (D-PA), Yea
Chambliss (R-GA), Yea
Clinton (D-NY), Not Voting
Coburn (R-OK), Yea
Cochran (R-MS), Yea
Coleman (R-MN), Yea
Collins (R-ME), Yea
Conrad (D-ND), Yea
Corker (R-TN), Yea
Cornyn (R-TX), Yea
Craig (R-ID), Yea
Crapo (R-ID), Yea
DeMint (R-SC), Yea
Dodd (D-CT), Nay
Dole (R-NC), Yea
Domenici (R-NM), Yea
Dorgan (D-ND), Nay
Durbin (D-IL), Nay
Ensign (R-NV), Yea
Enzi (R-WY), Yea
Feingold (D-WI), Nay
Feinstein (D-CA), Yea
Graham (R-SC), Not Voting
Grassley (R-IA), Yea
Gregg (R-NH), Yea
Hagel (R-NE), Yea
Harkin (D-IA), Nay
Hatch (R-UT), Yea
Hutchison (R-TX), Yea
Inhofe (R-OK), Yea
Inouye (D-HI), Yea
Isakson (R-GA), Yea
Johnson (D-SD), Yea
Kennedy (D-MA), Nay
Kerry (D-MA), Nay
Klobuchar (D-MN), Nay
Kohl (D-WI), Yea
Kyl (R-AZ), Yea
Landrieu (D-LA), Yea
Lautenberg (D-NJ), Nay
Leahy (D-VT), Nay
Levin (D-MI), Nay
Lieberman (ID-CT), Yea
Lincoln (D-AR), Yea
Lugar (R-IN), Yea
Martinez (R-FL), Yea
McCain (R-AZ), Yea
McCaskill (D-MO), Yea
McConnell (R-KY), Yea
Menendez (D-NJ), Nay
Mikulski (D-MD), Yea
Murkowski (R-AK), Yea
Murray (D-WA), Nay
Nelson (D-FL), Yea
Nelson (D-NE), Yea
Obama (D-IL), Nay
Pryor (D-AR), Yea
Reed (D-RI), Nay
Reid (D-NV), Nay
Roberts (R-KS), Yea
Rockefeller (D-WV), Yea
Salazar (D-CO), Yea
Sanders (I-VT), Nay
Schumer (D-NY), Nay
Sessions (R-AL), Yea
Shelby (R-AL), Yea
Smith (R-OR), Yea
Snowe (R-ME), Yea
Specter (R-PA), Yea
Stabenow (D-MI), Nay
Stevens (R-AK), Yea
Sununu (R-NH), Yea
Tester (D-MT), Nay
Thune (R-SD), Yea
Vitter (R-LA), Yea
Voinovich (R-OH), Yea
Warner (R-VA), Yea
Webb (D-VA), Yea
Whitehouse (D-RI), Yea
Wicker (R-MS), Yea

Notice... she is ONE of only 2 out of 100 that didnt vote. Pay attention here, the facts are important. After that vote, quite a few people cleared out. but she NEVER showed. Big difference.

[quakerboy]

230. Try again

Many topics I hanvt followed closely. Ask me about economic policy, "snubgate", or the issues surrounding the demographics of texas, and I may or may not know whats going on at any given moment. But FISA... Been following that close for months now. I read just about everything anyone writes about it.

That vote was important. If you notice, I didnt use the term FISA in the post you responded to, so your whole critique is irrelevant. I am concerned with Immunity, which is the important part of this, in my opinion. On this topic, Reid has screwed us and made EVERY vote important. Justice has a long uphill battle and every single person who dosnt help makes it harder for everyone else pushing this stone up the hill.

My dissapointment is not with Clinton alone. For months I was pissed with all of them. I had decided for Dodd, and was a bit irate when he dropped out. Then Clinton showed up to the important vote, followed by Obama. And, lo and behold, they wrested another month to work from the jaws of defeat. At this time, I feel that this most recent voting shows all to clear who is listening to me and who is not. Ive made my calls. And I know who has responded to them. There is still time for redemption, but every moment makes it less and less likely.

So.. yeah. If your going to attack me... know something. anything. It might help.

[Blue-Jay]

79. I still don't understand how anyone can have a "moral claim" to the presidency.

Has anyone made such a claim?

[jgraz]

95. It's an expression

It means she is no longer morally fit to hold that office. Capice?

[Blue-Jay]

129. No I don't "capice".

How does one judge moral fitness? Anti-torture sit-ups?

[HCE SuiGeneris]

83. This "miss" speaks volumes.

There have been some equally disturbing positions of hers that reflect the same lack of judgment. Goodbye Hillary.

[rodeodance]

84. Obama Watered down a bill on leaky nuke material!!--then $$ went into coffers. don't lecture me

on morals!! when O can put people at risk just to collect $$

[jgraz]

92. Well, that totally makes up for Hillary punting on the 4th amendment

Oh wait... NO IT DOESN'T.

[Cooley Hurd]

96. Link?

Your charge - your responsibility to back it up.

(this is bumming me out - you're another DUer whom I've always enjoyed. The vitriol displayed by BOTH sides just sucks...:()

[rodeodance]

91. Obama lied to voters... On the take from Nuclear Industry... (NY T imes)

Forum Name General Discussion: Primaries
Topic subject Obama lied to voters... On the take from Nuclear Industry... (NY T imes)
Topic URL http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4364922#4364922
4364922, Obama lied to voters... On the take from Nuclear Industry... (NY T imes)
Posted by CONN on Sun Feb-03-08 09:52 AM

When residents in Illinois voiced outrage two years ago upon learning that the Exelon Corporation had not disclosed radioactive leaks at one of its nuclear plants, the state’s freshman senator, Barack Obama, took up their cause.
<snip>
He has boasted of it on the campaign trail, telling a crowd in Iowa in December that it was “the only nuclear legislation that I’ve passed.”
<snip>
The campaign did not directly address the question of why Mr. Obama had told Iowa voters that the legislation had passed.

Since 2003, executives and employees of Exelon, which is based in Illinois, have contributed at least $227,000 to Mr. Obama’s campaigns for the United States Senate and for president.

Two top Exelon officials, Frank M. Clark, executive vice president, and John W. Rogers Jr., a director, are among his largest fund-raisers.

John W. Rowe, chairman of Exelon and also of the Nuclear Energy Institute, a lobbying group, has been an Obama donor.

Mr. Obama’s chief political strategist, David Axelrod, has worked as a consultant to Exelon.


U.S. / POLITICS | February 3, 2008
Nuclear Leaks and Response Tested Obama in Senate
By MIKE McINTIRE
An Illinois controversy pitting two important constituencies against each other put Barack Obama’s legislative skills to the test.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/03/us/politics/03exelon.html?ex=1202706000&en=9b90278942ace89a&ei=5070&emc=eta1

[Forkboy]

100. Well that sucks also. But how does one excuse the other?

Can't we agree that both actions really sucked and hurt us all, and not try to act like only one of these two buffoons that are left are great while the other sucks?

[rodeodance]

104. tell the Obama folks to stfp--see if they do. I am willing.

[Forkboy]

110. I'm never telling anyone to shut up.

That's a BIG pet peeve of mine, and one of the biggest insults I can think of.

Again, one doesn't excuse the other. Hillary supporters are saying it doesn't matter because Obama has done it too, and Obama supporters are saying it matters because Hillary supporters dog him for his missed votes, so this makes her a hypocrite. In a way, both are right, but that's too gray for the simplistic black and white mentality that dominates this forum.

Jesus, both sides are children at play in the fields of our sewage.

And sorry, didn't mean to call you Jesus. :D

[rodeodance]

123. HA --JUST thought i toss that one out there. best to you.

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ACanadianLiberal]

200. Brent, you are over the top with these.

[bagrman]

212. She's just scary.

[ACanadianLiberal]

222. Anybody can be illustrated in a way like this including you and me.

[bagrman]

226. She's still scary.

[incapsulated]

101. Then I guess Obama did months ago. n/t

[Matariki]

115. I voted for her, but this is deeply disappointing.

[rodeodance]

152. Dodd told her he did not have the votes. Hers would not have made a difference

[Matariki]

229. That's good to know. Still she should have known that it wasn't going to look good for her. n/t

[JuniperLea]

116. all y'all are nutty as hell... eom

[Guaranteed]

117. Indefensible. nt

[Auntie Bush]

126. So it's excusable for Obama to not vote many times...but it's not when Hillary doesn't vote.

I haven't heard one single Obama supporter criticize or complain about Obama not voting. Now that it is Hillary...they will criticize her all over this board till the cows come home.

[jgraz]

127. There's no excuse for missing this vote

If Obama had missed it, I'd be slamming him just as hard.

[peacock]

183. He missed the final vote

Are you going to slam him?

[Zhade]

128. She did it months ago, by suggesting she gets to pick her presidential powers.

Which, of course, is an illegal violation of the separation of powers.

[ElboRuum]

136. Forget Hillary...

I'm still stuck on the part where it says...

Senate Passes Telecom Immunity

I am in a state of infinite disgust.

[stillrockin]

139. Jim Webb voted FOR immunity. How 'bout them apples?

[jgraz]

140. Nobody ever said Webb was a progressive

Even so, this is pretty damn disappointing.

[stillrockin]

141. This is business as usual for this guy.

[TexasObserver]

137. Hillary. She'll be ready to FOLD on Day One.

[stillrockin]

138. Hillary! Ready to give away what's left in the store on DAY ONE!!!!!

:thumbsdown:

[dicknbush]

267. Obama will give the store away with the best of them count on it

No Health Care by 2012

Stil in Iraq by 2012

Count on it if he wins.


Its easy to talk big when you have no record. OB has been in the Senate for less then two years he has no record to run on nor to use as an example of how he would vote on anything. He is an empty suit if you take away the "HOPE" and Change goolbdey gook! If BO gets the nod I am out of the game for good. I really will not give a crap anymore. THe dems have sold out a woman who has worked her entire life to improve the lives of others. She has been maligned accused of the most horrific crimes her sexuality has been denigrated her physical apperance has been isnulted her daughter has been insulted and her reward for getting up every day and fighting on is this a knife in the back from "Progressive" because a pretty face came down the pike with"HOPE"....We don't need HOPE we need help and we are not going to get that from pretty boy BO. BO stinks and soon we will all get a nose full.

[Kurovski]

143. Kick. (nt)

[tbl92666]

146. And Obama still has abstained way more than she has...

But, hey, at least he finally took a stand on something...kudos for that.

[Hieronymus]

148. Excellent piece. Does she want to assure that she has that power ...

if, by some miracle, she wins?

[countmyvote4real]

150. Obama's now my solid choice for sure.

While I was previously prepared to resign to the power of the "Clinton machine," this confirms that Clinton2 (HRC) cannot be trusted to uphold and support our Constitution. How untested or experienced does one have to be not show up for this vote? Obama showed up.

McAncient did, too, and voted against the amendment to hold the corporate telecoms liable in their complicity to spy on US citizens without a warrant.

If the Clinton machine really loves our country, Constitution and all in as much as her words don't reflect her deeds, she would be wise to suspend her candidacy sooner rather than later.

There is much to respect and like about the Clintons. I'm not suggesting that either should be banished or retire from public discourse or office. I'd just like them to recognize that times have drastically changed. (No thanks to either of them.)

I hope she finds a graceful exit before Huckabee snatches that away, too.

If the Clintons choose to burn down the party with super-delegates or reinstating the FL or MI results, they might succeed in the nomination, but they will only be left with their base. I'm not saying that I won't vote for the Democratic candidate in the GE. I'm saying McAncient will still have more enthusiastic supporters than HRC.

She and Bill really ought to think about how they can contribute to an Obama administration.

[chaz4jazz]

195. OBAMA DID NOT SHOW UP! AND HE WAS IN DC. HILLARY WAS IN TEXAS.

[countmyvote4real]

266. NOT TRUE when you claim Obama did not show up.

He WAS there to vote against cloture of the amendment.

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=2&vote=00019

Follow the link and review the ones not voting.

[Enrique]

154. this will sway all the undecideds at DU

:rofl:

[chaz4jazz]

197. SURE - IF THEY BELIEVE IN LIES. OBAMA - CLINTON BOTH DID NOT VOTE.

She was in Texas. AND HE WAS IN WASHINGTON DC - ALL DAY.


Democratic presidential candidate Senator Barack Obama shakes hands as he campaigns outside a Metro subway stop on the District of Columbia's primary election day on Pennsylvania Avenue in Southeast Washington, February 12, 2008. (Jim Bourg/Reuters)

[jgraz]

211. Learn to read a roll call vote -- you're embarrassing yourself

Look up the Dodd amendment. That was the crucial vote.

[Voltaire99]

155. The corporate pollwreck is finished, anyway.

Or so we hope. Keep the garlic and crucifixes ready, just in case.

[Name removed]

156. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[natrat]

159. clinton is truly a pos for this

[chaz4jazz]

198. and what is obama for not voting today? AND HE WAS IN DC. SHE IN TEXAS

[natrat]

233. helo -obama voted to strip immunity-clinton is a dlc piece of shit

[From The Left]

166. Hillary is Bush in a Pantsuit

[mdmc]

173. Clinton and McCain want to help Bush spy on Americans!

And the war was a good idea.

[goaman]

175. OH PLEASE...OBAMA missed or voted present on 99% of votes

oh please obama cult followers...do not forget that Obama either missed or voted present on many votes....so for you to jump on Hillary for missing one is ridiculous. Don't forget that she is campaigning and campaigning hard because so far she is loosing to Obama.
I think all senataros and members of congress should be allowed to cast their votes remotely.

Anyway....Obama cult followers...you should not even be talking about Hillary not voting when your guy did not vote 99% of the time....until now to score some political points.

I wonder why he voted now and not the other 99% of the times? hmmmmm..maybe because he wants to score some political points....

[jgraz]

202. Please don't post complete bullshit in my thread

[From The Left]

225. You're a Liar and a Racist. F**K OFF

[CaptJasHook]

176. The truly sad thing this thread shows about DU

is that the surest way to make the Home page on DU with a greatest thread, is to make sure you bash a candidate or use a insubstantial "My candidate rocks" message.

The amendment to strip telecom immunity from FISA was incredibly important to every single one of us here on DU, especially those who have made radical statements about the government, this country and/or its president. If it FISA passes and Telecoms and Websites are encouraged to set up monitoring equipment, then we will indeed be back to the STASI.

That is what we should be talking about. Instead the Obama and Hillary strike team is using this issue to create another bash and counter bash thread.

Sad. :puke:

[jgraz]

184. Bash??? There is no fairer FAIR GAME than a Senator's voting record

It's pretty clear that whoever wins the Dem primary is going to be our next president. How can you say that telecom immunity is "incredibly important" and then whine about valid criticism of how a candidate voted (or didn't vote) on the issue?

[CaptJasHook]

204. Look back at this thread

And then tell me that there is no bashing and ignoring of the real issue.

Voting record, voting schmeckard.

Both candidates have problems. But this thread has become another petty thread 75% of which is cheap shots and MSM talking points. Keep the valid points, but look back and tell me this thread is worthy of its recommendations.

Also, ask why the OP decided to lead the thread with that particular headline. Answer: the OP wanted to make this a partisan thread. And they found plenty of sheep to bleat.

And by the way, keep trying to belittle my point by saying that I am whining. You do little but belittle yourself in doing so.

[jgraz]

210. You seem to be missing a few key points

First, I'm the OP, so I happen to be an expert on the OP's motivation. If you check my sig and avatar, you may figure out that I'm no Obamanut. My post was specifically about Hillary's cowardly decision to skip this vote -- something I've criticized her for repeatedly, even before the campaign started.

And, yes, your post does sound like whining. This is a valid issue and a valid criticism, but you're turning into some silly attack on my motives. How is that helpful?

[CaptJasHook]

220. If your intention is to start a discussion about

how important the stripping of telecom immunity was and how disappointed you were in Hillary's non-stance then you failed. You failed at the beginning by posing it in such a way as to feed the ever-hungry, curernt DUers who consistently use DU as a forum for their school yard behavior. You presented this issue in a one-sided manner and then allowed posters to put up intentionally offensive material.

Perhaps that is the state of DU during primaries. So people can justfy it in their own heads. But the cost of this behavior is the loss of intelligent members in the conversation. I do not claim to one of those intelligent posters, but I certainly support them and am informed by their thoughtful positionings on Progressive issues. It also looks Democrats look like foolish children.

Is my observation helpful? Probably not. But I do feel it is reflective of many people's opinion on the current state of DU. If some of these posters finally are scolded into putting a filter between their impetuous postings then perhaps I will have succeeded. So there you are, I am not whining... I am scolding.


(BTW I am nooooo fan of Hillary. I supported Kucinich with my heart and Edwards with my head. I would vote Obama if my vote mattered, but only because I is more likely to bring out progressive, liberal and diverse voters. He will also send an important message to the world about America. But as for his politics, they are no better and no worse than Hillary's.)

[jgraz]

221. I was pissed off -- so sue me

My real intent was to express how disgusted I am with a presidential candidate who won't stand up for the Constitution. She deserves every brickbat she gets over this one.

[CaptJasHook]

223. Thank you for saying so.

I don't own a lawyer, so I cant sue you for the tremendous emotional damage you have caused me by this post;)

You do see that you have made my point. You reacted out of anger and made a visceral appeal to mob mentality.

That is what my post is reacting to. We need clear thinking and effective response that will not marginalize the Progressive movement.

I wish people would stop for a minute and consider how much their power will be diminished by the opposing Democratic candidate, should they attain office. I most likely will support Obama in the primaries. But if his supporters consistently make enemies and burn bridges within our own party, then the backlash of bitter feelings will cost all of us in the long run.

Remember the teachings of Howard Zinn. From the beginnings of this nation, the ruling class has used the strategy of dividing the populace and turning it against each other. The are able to do this because the average citizen has not the time, energy, resources or unity to mount a cohesive movement.


I urge each and every DUer to put a filter between their emotions, cynicism and pettiness, before they post. Otherwise, we will reap the whirlwind.

[jgraz]

224. Reacting out of anger and appealing to mob mentality are two different things

The power of righteous outrage is why we have a Democratic Congress right now. And hopefully, righteous outrage will be how many of them lose their jobs over the next few years.

Emotion is a powerful tool, there's nothing wrong with (sensibly) acting on it.

[CaptJasHook]

227. Their are two things that bother me about what you say.

First of all, righteousness is easily disputed by logic and reason. Centering any argument on your personal rightness is a logical fallacy. Same as basing an argument on an emotional quality. Those types of arguments typically do not stand the test of time. Furthermore, they tacitly legitimize others to use the same tactic, which typically spirals into a pointless and hurtful series of diatribes and insults.

I would like to think that the reason that we have a Democratic Congress right not is because the Neo-Con agenda has finally been found out to be a failure. In other words, I have greater faith in the populist, Progressive movement to make this the kind of country which ensures that I have life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

I might add that the Neo-Cons very skillfully used their pundits (Limbaugh, Gingrich, etc.) to make a mass emotional appeal ("The President got a blowjob", "Welfare mothers drive Cadillacs") inorder to win in 1994. Why should I believe that using emotions as a powerful tool will end up any differently?

And there is nothing, nothing sensible in the long term about acting immediately on emotions. If you have not learned that yet, I beg you to look deeper at history. Look at leaders who appealed to masses through emotional demaoguery. You will not like what you see.

By the way, you posted in a reaction out of anger, then used your tagline to appeal to mob mentality. They are two seperate things that you combined in your post.

[Cass]

201. Well, following your logic, Obama has also ceded any moral claim

to the Presidency when he did not vote on the K-L bill. Having said that, I do believe Hillary made a mistake in not voting on this bill.

[jgraz]

207. An argument could certainly be made for that

However, he still maintains a practical claim to the office, in terms of electability and bringing new people to the party. Hillary's got nothing at this point.

[Cass]

243. What makes Obama more electable than Clinton?

Republicans voting in democratic primaries doesn't turn me on. Registered voters in each party should choose their respective nominee, IMO. Allowing republicans and independents to vote in democratic primaries doesn't give a true assessment of what the party wants. Its interesting and can highlight potential trends, but I am not comfortable with republicans having a say in our nomination process.

[jgraz]

254. Oh christ, where do I start?

1. Obama is a far more charismatic, inspiring speaker. This isn't just kool-aid, this is something that will turn out Democrats and boost our numbers up and down the ticket.

2. Hillary's negatives are scary. She will inspire huge Repug turnout and likely hurt all of our candidates.

3. Obama is currently doing better against McCain in every national poll.

4. Obama can truly hammer McCain on the war. Hillary's attacks will always be blunted by her original support for the war and her refusal to back off her vote.

5. The contrast between establishment McCain and upstart Obama couldn't be more stark. This really is a year when people want change and McCain just doesn't have any of it. Running an establishment Dem like Hillary would kill all claim to the CHANGE label.

6. Those Repug Obama voters are going to stick around. Most of the supposed right-wingers in this country are just SHEEP who will get in line behind any charismatic leader. Obama has the ability to pull them in and turn them to our cause.

This is just off the top of my head. I'm sure I could find a many more reasons if I thought about it a little.

[From The Left]

238. Hillary Clinton Voted for the Iraq War. Next?

[Cronopio]

203. Deleted. nt

[jgraz]

205. You're reading it wrong

Obama voted FOR the Dodd amendment, which strips immunity for the telcos. McCain voted against it, in effect voting FOR telco immunity. Capice?

[Cronopio]

208. I know - I re-read the article. Thanks. nt

[jgraz]

209. No prob -- I was like WTF? until I looked up the roll call

[Marie26]

213. But neither voted on the FISA bill, right?

This bothers me. What are they so afraid of? Both Obama & Clinton supported Dodd's filibuster in the past - now they're both AWOL. And yes, Obama voted on the amendment - but why couldn't he vote on the actual bill?

[jgraz]

219. Obama showed up for the important vote, then he left to go back to the campaign

This, of course, is my own speculation. I'd love to hear him answer a question as to why he didn't stick around for the whole thing. I'm guessing the answer would have something to do with his campaign commitments.

Hillary, of course, has no excuse whatsoever. She should have been there -- just as a show of support to Dodd, if nothing else.

[robbedvoter]

228. Then why is the roll call showing Obama not voting?

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=2&vote=00020

Not Voting - 3
Clinton (D-NY)
Graham (R-SC)
Obama (D-IL)

[jgraz]

241. You're looking at the wrong roll call. Please try to keep up.

[LostinVA]

249. No, he didn't vote for the final passage

NEITHER of them should have missed the votes yesterday, just for purely symbolic reasons, but the fact is SEnator Obama did miss the final vote. I agree with Marie26's assessment in another thread of why. But, the fact is both votes were important but neither were needed. They both should have been there for both votes, and it isn't fair that Senator Obama is getting a pass on missing the final passage vote. One vote WASN'T the "important" one, because both were guaranteed to fail by the same margin. So, either both have to be censured or neither. I chose to censure both.

[jgraz]

256. He voted for the Dodd amendment, then left for Wisconsin

That's completely acceptable in my book. I like that he cast his vote on EXACTLY what was important about that bill, and also showed support for a great American and fellow candidate, Senator Dodd.

Hillary really screwed the pooch on this one.

[williesgirl]

235. Whether her vote would have changed the outcome isn't the issue. She would have been on record

one way or the other and the voters would have been sure which one.

I was still wrestling with my VA primary vote, and finally decided to go with Obama. When I returned from voting, I sure was glad I had when I read he voted against immunity and she never showed up. I would have been really upset with myself if I had decided on her.

She's history because of this lack of a vote. Of course, she also didn't have to piss off the telecoms and can count on their money to finance the rest of her hopefully failing candidacy.

[George II]

239. Nice negative subject line!!!

Voting for McCain, are you?

[jgraz]

240. I'm going to be so glad when these mindless jingoists crawl back in their holes

:eyes:

[CaptJasHook]

244. Go back to school

jingoism |ˈji ng gōˌizəm|
noun chiefly derogatory
extreme patriotism, esp. in the form of aggressive or warlike foreign policy; a chauvinistic patriot.


How about mindlessly spouting words for which you don't know the meaning.

[jgraz]

247. Just found dictionary.com, eh?

Those of us who actually use three-syllable words in everyday conversation understand that meanings change and expand over time. My word choice was apt and said exactly what I meant it to say.

You need to hang out with a brighter class of people. Here's hoping some of it rubs off.

[CaptJasHook]

248. Too bad you didn't earlier

It actually happens to be a simple application on my computer. You should try it someday. Its the easiest way to copy and paste, by the way.

[jgraz]

250. You're really embarrassing yourself. My usage was absolutely correct, albeit slightly metaphorical

Only an imbecile or an incurable pedant would quibble with my post.

[CaptJasHook]

251. I love irony

And you provide loads and loads of it.

I love how you feel you can make fun of people, insult them and then take no responsibility for your own faults.

I would rather be an imbecile, an incurable pedant, embarassed, etc., then be an unapologetic blind hypocrite and bully.

[jgraz]

252. The key to survival on DU is knowing when to stop typing

I wish you all the best in learning that lesson as soon as possible. :hi:

[CaptJasHook]

253. Advice from you is meaningless, but thanks for the last bit of Bullying

[jgraz]

255. Thin skinned and annoying is no way to go through life, son.

[CaptJasHook]

257. And now you call me son, hahaha

You know jgraz, I actually perused your journal. And I do owe you an apology. You seem to be a thoughtful, research oriented poster (and a excellent chef). And I am being a dick to you.

But I am no "son" and I am no "imbecile". I am a hopeless "pedant" at times, but only when I see someone being unfair as I perceive you and some of the other posters on this thread are.

So peace, I apologize and surrender.

[jgraz]

258. One thing you won't get from my journal

is that I can be kind of a dick sometimes. Apology accepted and offered in return. Peace.

[George II]

264. make that 4 posts ago.....

[George II]

263. and you passed that point maybe 3 posts ago!

[George II]

262. Careful Capt...

Saying you love "irony" to someone like that with such a rudimentary grasp of the English language might prompt a return comment from him/her, it might be taken as a comment on non-wrinkled clothes.

[George II]

260. But you refuse to elaborate on what you "meant it to say"

You're probably just too embarassed to admit what you intended to say, but did so incorrectly.

In modern American English, "jingoist" has no definition that applies to your comment.

[George II]

259. Your point?

I am going to be so glad when all these faux "Democrats" crawl back to Free Republic instead of making poisonous posts on a Democratic website.