Why did Clinton leave her name on the MI ballot?

[kid a]

[MonkeyFunk]

1. Why not?

there was no agreement or rule to remove their names. Some of the candidates did so to pander to Iowa and NH voters, AND because they had no expectation of winning there.

[kid a]

ok - i didn't know that.

[HeraldSquare212]

7. MI was after Iowa and NH.

They were respecting the DNC's decision to give blacks (SC) and hispanics (NV) a greater voice in choosing the nominee by having those states go immediately after Iowa and NH. Democratic party officials from across the country voted for that plan, and the candidates who withdrew their names respected that vote.

[AZ Criminal JD]

27. Really? Then why did they leave their names on the Florida ballot?

[rinsd]

32. Because FL required an affadavit swearing you were withdrawing from the race entirely.

Apparently Obama felt so deeply about the MI primary he had to remove his name but when it came time to do a national ad buy he sought permission for those ads to run in FL.

[rinsd]

31. And yet respectful Obama ran ads in FL and had surrogates campaign in MI.

[HeraldSquare212]

40. "your candidate is almost as bad as my candidate." Hardly a compelling arument. nt

[PassingFair]

41. Bitter much? n/t

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

8. Wow. That's a stretch.

[MonkeyFunk]

30. Not a stretch

just the stone cold truth.

[Captain Hilts]

2. Why not? I had a whole slew to pick from today: Dodd, Richardson, Biden....nt

[Bucky]

3. I think she lost the paperwork for withdrawing. Or it was in some old file box.

:hide:

[formernaderite]

4. maggie williams prob had it

lol

[LSparkle]

5. Or behind some couch in the White House

:evilgrin:

[CreekDog]

9. Sandy Berger hid the paperwork in his trousers.

:hide:

[Bucky]

21. But then James Carvel fished them out

:wow: Ohnoes!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

6. Because "Uncommitted" did it first.

[democrattotheend]

10. Granholm moved up the primary to help her

So she probably felt obliged.

[jkshaw]

11. I saw a short video of Senator Clinton

and an interviewer who asked her this question. This was earlier, and I'm sorry I can't remember who was asking the question. She said that she didn't feel MI was significant insofar as the primary battle was concerned, that it really didn't matter.

[Johnny__Motown]

12. Always planned on not living up to her word on the pledge

[Quixote1818]

14. You nailed it. nt

[AZ Criminal JD]

28. False

The pledge was not to campaign and she didn't.

[PassingFair]

42. Plus, she had her fingers crossed. n/t

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

68. ding ding ding

you are cor-r-r-r-rect!

And welcome to DU Johnny_Motown!

[LisaM]

13. The candidates were under no obligation to withdraw their names

They couldn't campaign there, and they knew the delegates wouldn't be seated, but there was no reason at all to take their name off. I don't understand why others did.

In fact, it wasn't just Hillary. Kucinich left his name on the Michigan ballot while he was still running, and I didn't hear a surge of protest about that! In fact, I'm pretty sure I didn't hear a peep about it.

[MichiganVote]

16. Because she could. No law against it. And the others were offered write in status

after they protested that their names were not on the ballot and Clinton's was. The Republican legislature offered a 'do over' on that part of the legislation and guess what?

Neither Obama or Edwards of the Dem. party would do it. So who's crying now?

[Quixote1818]

17. Do you have a link? nt

[MichiganVote]

19. Go mlive and do the research. Its all there. One fine article after another.

Most people on this board don't bother. They'd rather bitch about the state, the governor, Clinton and so on. It may be a clusterfuck but its not as if its all Clinton or the State Democrats.

Not even the law and order GOP took all their candidate's away. They settled at half and so far, not one party voter has been bitching about rules and so on.

[PassingFair]

44. If Michigan REALLY wants its issues heard, we should be pushing for that caucus!

Hillary and Obama would be campaigning here like CRAZY,
and the eyes of the country would be RIVETED on Michigan
and its issues,

JUST LIKE WE WANTED.

It's a WIN, WIN, no?

[MichiganVote]

46. Then pay for it. Why should we believe anybody anymore?

[PassingFair]

49. I think it would be well worth the money.

Don't YOU?

[MichiganVote]

55. No. After that caucus or re-vote there will be another argument and another.

Its what it is and everyone is going to have to live with some part of it. Who knows? Clinton may quit and then everyone can happily go back to ignoring Michigan again.

Until the GE that is.

[MichiganVote]

38. here are a couple of items that may help you understand this mess...

2-10-08 article that explains the current predicament.
http://blog.mlive.com/chronicle/2008/02/michigan_democrats_back_in_run.html

and here is a succinct synopsis of the whole sorry mess-
http://dev.publius.org/?m=200801

BTW- Michigan doubled its primary voters this season...so don't even imagine that voters in Michigan aren't paying attention to this election.

[Johnny__Motown]

29. WRONG.... any write in would have spoiled the ballot,,, Voted Uncommitted just to be against Hillary

[MichiganVote]

47. I have no idea what you are trying to say. Better luck on Mars.

[PassingFair]

43. You must have a PROFOUND hearing loss.

Kucinich tried to have his name removed.
Twice. Both times his office messed up
the paperwork. Our 'puke Secretary of State
refused to let him off the ballot.

And there was a LOT of discussion of it
around here.

[MichiganVote]

48. 'Course then he relented and did some campaigning.

[PassingFair]

50. ....and dropped out DAYS later.

he wasn't "campaigning", he
was looking for an audience
for his anti-war message.

[MichiganVote]

54. Well..:)...in many parts of Michigan we call that campaigning,esp. when they are on the ballot

[PassingFair]

56. Yeah, cause he was such a Contenda.

He and Gravel.

[MichiganVote]

57. I actually liked some of what both had to say. But I'm not a political zealot for any candidate.

[PassingFair]

59. Neither am I.

That's one reason why I think a "do-over" is in order.

I really DO think Michigan could benefit from the
spotlight, too.

[MichiganVote]

62. There will not be a 'do-over' in Michigan. People just have to get over that idea.

For one thing, the republican legislature is tickled pink by this pageant of family discord among the Democrats. As far as they are concerned its over. Secondly, and more to the point, Michigan does not have the $ for another primary. Its not a caucus state to begin with. Moreover, the GOP has no need for another primary at this point.

Thirdly, and more troubling, people in this state will not trust another primary for a long time.

If you think that Michigan deserves the spotlight you are in a minority. Our economic problems stem from changes in the overall economy of the country. Not the weather, not a hurricane, not tornadoes, not bridges falling down, floods.....

Michigan contributed to the US economy mightily once upon a time. Sure the car makers made off with a lot of profit and tax but generally Michigan residents lived well. Now this lovely state is starting to build back, build up and build business.

Another wasted primary is about the least of our concerns.

[PassingFair]

63. Then why the big push to be "first"?

A caucus will only cost a million. The 'pukes don't have anything to DO with it.

Chump change.

[MichiganVote]

66. Read this...it should answer most of your questions.

http://dev.publius.org/?m=200801

And by the way, I work in education in Michigan. I stand to be laid off after this year as well as a number of other very good educators. A million dollars for the kids in our state is a lot of money for the sake of some disgruntled Clinton voters and the hysterical Obama crowd. People in this state did not hear from the DNC that Michigan would not have delegates. What they heard and what people on this board keep repeating is that the votes "don't count". And that my friend is a sure fire way to lose Michigan in the GE.

Everyone is going to have a poison pill on this one. But do take the time to read this, its not too long.

[PassingFair]

72. I read it already, you posted it upthread.

It's an opinion piece about a situation that I'm very familiar
with.

The whole debacle was sold to us as a way to "focus attention
on the plight of Michigan" and manufacturing states.

Levin had been legitimately pushing it for YEARS.
Opportunists in the party saw it as a chance to ride
Florida's coat-tails and ram-rod the Clinton "Juggernaut"
down Michigan's collective throat. Essentially front-loading
the primaries and saving the "party" (read: DLC) any frivolous
primary expenses.

Her "jugger" was for naught, however, as things have
not worked out the way they planned it from Iowa onward.

And that, my friend, is what I have seen from committee meetings
where NO ONE on the floor wanted to trade our delegates for an
early date.

NO. ONE.

[sniffa]

15. As her "firewall"

No one could have expected she'd use it.

[MichiganVote]

18. The same "firewall" was open to all of them. They didn't want it. Now they're stuck with it.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

69. oh like she never thought Bush would attack Iraq

I get it.

Totally unforseen.

[Orangepeel]

20. She interpreted the agreement differently from every other candidate

The rest of them interpreted the DNC's rules to not compete in Michigan to include removing their names from the ballot. Clinton said that she wouldn't campaign, but in her opinion, not competing didn't necessitate removing her name.

(Kucinich tried to remove his name, but got the paperwork in too late). It was too late for any of them to remove their names from the Florida ballot.

[splat]

23. She's a better lawyer?

[Orangepeel]

26. "better" is subjective n/t

[PassingFair]

51. Yeah, like this guy:

[chitty]

52. I love

Nathan Thurm!

"Why would I say that?"

[MonkeyFunk]

33. "The rest of them"

It seems to be the big lie here that all the candidates removed their names except Clinton.

Not true. Gravel, Dodd, Clinton and Kucinich were on the ballot.

[AZ Criminal JD]

35. False

They withdrew their names from the Michigan ballot on Oct. 9. The deadline to withdraw from Florida was 22 days later --- Oct 31st. http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/09/michigan.primary/index.html

[rinsd]

36. Not correct at all. Dodd the 1st to sign the 4 state pledge thought it was silly.

And FL wasn't a case of timing but that they would have been required to file an affadavit stating they had withdrawn from the nomination race entirely.

Obama & Edwards jumped on this bandwagon after Richardson & Biden cooked it up as a way of kissing ass in IA & NH (the two states most vehement about protecting their 1st in nation status)

[TheDonkey]

22. She's a cheat

and opportunistic.

[MonkeyFunk]

34. no cheating at all

there was no obligation to remove ones name from the ballot.

Only ONE candidate broke the pledge in Michigan - Dennis Kucinich. He campaigned there in direct violation of the pledge.

[DrFunkenstein]

24. I Think Her Massive Firewall in New Hampshire Could Withstand It

And she could use it to show Joe-mentum. Amazingly, the devastation of her firewall was spun as a come from behind victory after a few days of faulty poll reading (ignoring the large number of uncommitteds).

That said, I think that she later realized that she would have to win dirty if she was going to win at all and started setting up for Florida.

[cooolandrew]

25. Why did they run the election if it didnt count is what gets me.

[AZ Criminal JD]

37. Because it is run by the state not the party

The Republican side did count plus there were all sorts of other races and ballot measures to be voted on.

[ArkySue]

39. Why did they prohibit campaigning if it didn't count???

Campaigning would at least help in the GE.

[PassingFair]

45. They all agreed to not participate in a primary in Michigan.

Some of them MEANT it.

Others were Mr. Gravel or DLC.

[MonkeyFunk]

53. Dennis Kucinich was the only candidate

to campaign in Michigan. DLC stooge.

There was no agreement to remove their names from the ballot.

[PassingFair]

58. No, they all agreed from the onset that only Hillary, Gravel and Dodd

..would remain on the ballot.

:sarcasm:

Richardson, Biden, Edwards and Obama hate
Michigan and refused to play in our primary.

Someone took the time on another thread to
put this situation in analogy form, where
all the soccer teams in a league decide to
boycott a tournament.

One team shows up, sends a girl onto the
field to kick the ball into the unguarded
net, and the team dances around and declares
VICTORY at the tournament.

Sorry Hillary, not trophy for you.

[MonkeyFunk]

60. Unless you can show me evidence

that there was an agreement to remove their names from the ballot, then I will continue to consider your opinion uninformed.

[PassingFair]

61. They DID remove their names from the ballot. That is FACT.

"Agreement" or not. They DID it.

They all signed a pledge to agree to the rules
of the party and not participate in primaries
that broke PARTY RULES and moved their dates up.

This bull*hit parsing is dishonest and is why
people have turned against her in DROVES as the
primaries advance.





As it stands, those delegates will not be seated.

Even if they are allowed, at 55%, they may not be enough
to help her win by then.

[MonkeyFunk]

64. half the candidates did

that's not evidence there was an agreement to do so.

They pledged not to campaign there, and only Kucinich broke the pledge.

[PassingFair]

65. And only one declares "victory" in contests in which she did not participate.

People are seeing through this you know.

[MonkeyFunk]

67. Why change the subject?

Only Kucinich violated the pledge regarding Michigan.

Arguably, Obama was the only one to break the pledge in Florida.

And Clinton won both. She won Florida big time, with record turnout.

[PassingFair]

70. How can you "win" something you didn't "participate" in?

Send her this:

[MonkeyFunk]

71. She won the old fashioned way

by getting 300,000 more votes than her closest opponent.

[PassingFair]

73. Who was that? "Uncommitted"?

Cripes, how can you win something you don't
participate in?

[MonkeyFunk]

74. I'm talking about Florida

sorry for any confusion.

But yes, she won Michigan, too. It's not her fault that others took their names off the ballot in an attempt to pander to Iowa and New Hampshire voters. But she was polling way ahead there anyway.

[PassingFair]

75. She's not polling "way ahead" anywhere now.

I guess in some people's eyes nothing is "her fault".

But people are seeing through the cynical votes and
the "depends on what your definition of IS, is" type of prevarication.

Obviously.

[MonkeyFunk]

76. She was polling far ahead in Michigan

before the others decided to remove their names. Don't be daft.

[PassingFair]

77. So what?

She is becoming known for more than just name recognition now,
and people do NOT like what they see.

Here, by the way, is Mr. Obama's reasoning for
REALLY not participating (pre-primary):

It was about following the rules of the party. Hillary
didn't CARE about "party rules". She thought she WAS the "party".

She is being disabused of this notion as we type.




"Mr. Obama called the D.N.C.’s process “in the best interests of our party and our nation,” and his campaign manager, David Plouffe, focused on the D.N.C.’s punishments for out-of-order states in his statement:

To become the Democratic nominee for president, a candidate must secure a majority of delegates to the national convention. Because states that violate DNC rules will not be allowed to contribute to the delegate tally, we urge all states to ensure their compliance with DNC rules so they can participate in our Democratic nominating process. Our campaign will work within the rules established by the DNC to earn the support of Democrats across America and run a grassroots campaign to unite Americans around Senator Obama’s commitment to challenging the conventional thinking in Washington.

[MonkeyFunk]

78. LOL

yeah, Obama was unheard of in Michigan.

Give it up.

Real Democratic voters in Michigan and Florida supported Clinton.

[PassingFair]

79. Are you saying that only "fake" democrats supported Obama?

Were they made of wax or plastic?

Clinton presumed much!

Give it up yourself.

[TexasObserver]

80. because it was part of her scheme to say one thing and do another

for some marginal PR gain

[PassingFair]

81. Marginal is right...

It only works when no one looks too closely....